dazee wrote: »

People complain being a healer is too easy. People complain being a tank is too demanding on block and get one shotted a lot in more recent content.

Neither of these things would be an issue if healers and tanks were designed to actually do damage on top of their main roles.

The one game I've had easily the most fun in endgame challenging content, dps is expected from -everybody- Tanks and Healers were expected to do roughly half the damage of dps while doing their primary roles. it was accepted that encounters were designed with tank and healer damage in mind as well as the rest of the group.

Why is there such resistance to this? Why do people continue to insist that Tanks and healers in this game be confined to a no damage role? it's silly. if tanks could do more damage without constant gear swapping, if they werent always forced into S&B (which has *** for damage options) or if S&B was reworked to something more fun, we wouldn't be waiting so long for a rare endangered species known as a tank in this game.

The issue isn't as bad with healers but it is there.

1. Healers are designed so they can do damage. They can do some extremely good damage and we have been since 2014.
2. Tanks being challenged with when to block and especially if they are getting one-shot comes down to paying attention and working the mechanics. Nothing will save a tank that cannot do that well.

Edit: I forgot to add that with how tanky we can get in ESO it is a horrible idea to add damage to tanking because it would be epically problematic in PvP.

I also have no idea where OP gets the idea that people feel healers should be relegated to a no-damage role since many of us either skip the healer to add another DPS or pretty much insist the healer does damage.

zvavi wrote: »

I like tanking in ESO more than tanking in games that dealing damage generates agro when your class is a tank.

I agree.

As I said before, I have no idea how a tank being able to do damage would save them from getting one-shot because they were oblivious to mechanics, what the boss was going.

dazee wrote: »

First off, Tanks need to do more damage. However I agree that, all other factors remaining the same would make it a bad idea due to how endgame content has been designed around a no damage turtle tank for so long.

Secondly, I know healers can do okish damage, thats why I said the problem is much more significant with tanks.

Why do tanks need to do more damage? I have not see the case made for that.

The fact is that all group content in this game has been tanked successfully many times with tanks doing the damage the are doing now.

Second, healers can do good damage. They can do almost, if not as good, as a full DD. Much of it really depends on their CP. These are facts of how the game is designed.

dazee wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

First off, Tanks need to do more damage. However I agree that, all other factors remaining the same would make it a bad idea due to how endgame content has been designed around a no damage turtle tank for so long.

Rebalancing end game content has its own issues. I believe idk already pointed out the problems that tanky players who can deal damage cause in PVP. Plus more damage often equals more power creep which leads back to ZOS nerfing other stuff because they don't want old content becoming obsolete.

The pvp issue is not an issue about tank damage it's an issue about the core way pvp works in ESO being flawed. until skills can work differently in pvp it will never be balanced and pvp concerns will end up ruining pve balance.

No. It is an issue with how combat is designed and with the current design tanks can do decent damage in PvP which also means they can do decent damage in PvE. It is a choice to how they build.

Besides, the fact is no content in ESO requires the tank to do more damage. All group content in ESO that needs a tank has been cleared successfully many tames. As such, the facts do not demonstrate a need to increase the damage tanks do.

dazee wrote: »

You clearly don't understand the way MMO balancing works when the goal is making each role fun on its own -and- in a group.

it's true tanks CAN do decent damage but the fact is endgame content forces them into turtle gear and builds that can't. the game has no build swap feature built in and the add ons are very unreliable and often buggy and must be updated each patch with a short period of simply not working.

If you still don't want tanks to do damage, you arent thinking about balance or fun but yourself, and probably don't tank often.

I mean, I knew from the start theres no point asking for decent rational changes to ESO, when they cant even fix bugs we've had for years but I had hoped the community would have more sense than to tell me I'm wrong on this.

Please do not say we don't understand the way MMO balancing works because are in disagreement. Myself and others in this thread that disagree with what is suggested have played multiple MMORPGs and have cleared much of the content in ESO. So we have a pretty good grasp of both MMORPGs and ESO specifically.

Considering we do have a lot of tanks in ESO which strongly suggests there is not a "fun" issue with tanking. As more than one of us have mentioned here, we like ESO tanking better than WoW or FF14 tanking.

zvavi wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

You clearly don't understand the way MMO balancing works when the goal is making each role fun on its own -and- in a group.

What non group content? overland is the most joke of joke. In addition if tanking is not fun for you, don't do it. Others enjoy it. Tanking in ESO is more dynamic and more fun than brainless"I am another dd, but the boss hits me" kind of tanking. Not your cup of tea? Don't tank.

Heck, I swap gear out, some skills on one bar, I do plenty of damage for solo questing while still being able to tank a WB if I fight one. Even without changing CP and only one bar for DPS I probably do more DPS than most DDs that solo queue for dungeons.

The "healers should do dmg too and be fine with it" stance is a very non-healer thing to say, lets be honest. The reason we want to be healers is because... wait for it.... we want to heal, and we want our heals to be NEEDED. Mitigating dmg is literally the opposite of dealing dmg.

I myself don't mind a heal/dps hybrid role, but I would rather be challenged to keep everyone alive. Unfortunately, ESO does not provide a very satisfying healer experience. Most mechanics rely too heavily on DPS, and healing in this game goes from "not needed" to "one-shot, middle finger to healer." And healer culture is another problem. Lots of groups treat you like a servant, expecting you to run this set or this build. And you're still d4mned if you do, and d4mned if you don't, with "fake-role" culture.

As it stands, I rely on the dual DPS/heal set up to feel engaged, otherwise I will run through dungeons or trials feeling useless/pointless. This could easily be resolved if mechanics were a bit more intuitive. Instead of one massive attack, how about lower dmg, but in rapid succession? How about adding followers in dungeons that also need to be healed (like an escort/protect mission)? Then there's mobs.... with a good tank, the healer will still feel pretty useless until you get to the next boss. If more low lvl monsters dealt DoT, maybe the healer would feel more pressure to heal the tank. There are several ways to go about this.

Castle Thorn did a decent job. During the second boss fight, players can get knocked into a pit, and the pit deals intense DoT. The final boss will disappear occasionally, leaving ONE safe spot that moves around, and anyone caught outside, again, receives intense DoT (and there are times you will need to step into the danger zone, unless you pull the targets in).

If you want to compare mechanics to "moments" that make a particular role shine, there are hardly any moments a tank or healer can show any prowess, while DPS just bypasses any would-be challenging moments. In fact, it feels all moments are designed to glorify DPS, while few are even remotely tank/heal oriented.

Wayrest Sewers II comes to mind though, fighting the Lich. When he ports to the center, he begins siphoning everyone's hp, and the healer is incredibly stressed if everyone is scattered. I would count that as a healer moment. Even when everyone cooperates and huddles, you still need to make sure you don't trip on your heals. When everyone is scattered.... well may they rest in peace. Its still an easy moment though if you ask me. Just drop your healing ultimate and call it good. What if that mechanic continued for longer though? What if the tank needed to do something complicated to stop his siphon? Its like we have these "almost epic" moments that fall short of the mark and just feel underwhelming in the end.

I would like to see a boss mechanic that separates all roles, and has them each complete a different task to return to the boss. Or what if DPS were ported into a room with an endless onslaught of mobs, and the healer or tank needed to do something special to save them? What if it was 3 random roles separated from one? Basically, a different version of Fungal Grotto II, when the spider lady banishes a random person. Any mechanic that strays away from "DPS through the mechanic" will be an improvement, even if it doesn't specifically call upon a healer or tank.

That's the healing dilemma, in my opinion.