Healers and Tanks in ESO

dazee

People complain being a healer is too easy. People complain being a tank is too demanding on block and get one shotted a lot in more recent content.

Neither of these things would be an issue if healers and tanks were designed to actually do damage on top of their main roles. The one game I've had easily the most fun in endgame challenging content, dps is expected from -everybody- Tanks and Healers were expected to do roughly half the damage of dps while doing their primary roles. it was accepted that encounters were designed with tank and healer damage in mind as well as the rest of the group.

Why is there such resistance to this? Why do people continue to insist that Tanks and healers in this game be confined to a no damage role? it's silly. if tanks could do more damage without constant gear swapping, if they werent always forced into S&B (which has *** for damage options) or if S&B was reworked to something more fun, we wouldn't be waiting so long for a rare endangered species known as a tank in this game.

The issue isnt as bad with healers but it is there.

Drdeath20

dazee wrote: »

People complain being a healer is too easy. People complain being a tank is too demanding on block and get one shotted a lot in more recent content.

Neither of these things would be an issue if healers and tanks were designed to actually do damage on top of their main roles. The one game I've had easily the most fun in endgame challenging content, dps is expected from -everybody- Tanks and Healers were expected to do roughly half the damage of dps while doing their primary roles. it was accepted that encounters were designed with tank and healer damage in mind as well as the rest of the group.

Why is there such resistance to this? Why do people continue to insist that Tanks and healers in this game be confined to a no damage role? it's silly. if tanks could do more damage without constant gear swapping, if they werent always forced into S&B (which has *** for damage options) or if S&B was reworked to something more fun, we wouldn't be waiting so long for a rare endangered species known as a tank in this game.

The issue isnt as bad with healers but it is there.

Doing damage, healing, tanking its all kinda the same. Keep up good uptimes on w/e, watch mechanics, be mindful of resources and stay busy. I dont see anything wrong with playing a role with commitment.

idk

dazee wrote: »

People complain being a healer is too easy. People complain being a tank is too demanding on block and get one shotted a lot in more recent content.

Neither of these things would be an issue if healers and tanks were designed to actually do damage on top of their main roles.

The one game I've had easily the most fun in endgame challenging content, dps is expected from -everybody- Tanks and Healers were expected to do roughly half the damage of dps while doing their primary roles. it was accepted that encounters were designed with tank and healer damage in mind as well as the rest of the group.

Why is there such resistance to this? Why do people continue to insist that Tanks and healers in this game be confined to a no damage role? it's silly. if tanks could do more damage without constant gear swapping, if they werent always forced into S&B (which has *** for damage options) or if S&B was reworked to something more fun, we wouldn't be waiting so long for a rare endangered species known as a tank in this game.

The issue isn't as bad with healers but it is there.

1. Healers are designed so they can do damage. They can do some extremely good damage and we have been since 2014.
2. Tanks being challenged with when to block and especially if they are getting one-shot comes down to paying attention and working the mechanics. Nothing will save a tank that cannot do that well.

Edit: I forgot to add that with how tanky we can get in ESO it is a horrible idea to add damage to tanking because it would be epically problematic in PvP.

I also have no idea where OP gets the idea that people feel healers should be relegated to a no-damage role since many of us either skip the healer to add another DPS or pretty much insist the healer does damage.

zvavi

I like tanking in ESO more than tanking in games that dealing damage generates agro when your class is a tank.

Edit: tanks were rare in that game too, and thats when teams consisted of 1 tank 1 heal 4 dds.

idk

zvavi wrote: »

I like tanking in ESO more than tanking in games that dealing damage generates agro when your class is a tank.

I agree.

As I said before, I have no idea how a tank being able to do damage would save them from getting one-shot because they were oblivious to mechanics, what the boss was going.

Jaimeh

It depends on the content you do and the group you're playing with. For eg., end-game score-pushing groups delegate one healer to off-dps in trash, and depending on set-up they use, even in bosses. Their job is not easy at all. Same with tanks, depending on the fight, they can afford to do more damage (ranged tanking in Lokke HM is a good one), but if they have to take on other responsibilities, like purging the group, applying magicka-steal, etc., it becomes progressively more complicated. When you go to easier non-score trial content, or 4-person dungeons/arenas, the tanks and healers can spec for more damage, especially in PUGs where the DDs might not be doing great. In end-game, no role--if done properly--is easy or straightforward.

VaranisArano

In normal dungeons, yes, nearly all of my tanks are "DDs with a taunt." Its not necessary, but it makes things go faster when I'm doing about a quarter to third of the DPS.

But even there, you need someone to handle boss aggro. Without that, you waste more DPS than you gain when the boss runs out of AOEs, targets the squishiest, or gets pulled out the fight area and resets the fight.

In harder dungeons...By the time I've built my tank to be sturdy enough to handle boss aggro through long fights with a couple sub-par DDs who don't know the mechanics, there's not a lot of room left in the build for doing "half the damage dealer's DPS" on top of my primary role. At best, you get sets like Leeching Plate while I forget about buffing to try to eek out a bit more DPS so that dear god please can we get this fight over with.

The best way to get a tank to relax and deal more damage?
Do good DPS on your Damage Dealer. Know the mechanics.
Seriously, boss fights are A LOT harder on the tank when the DDs have low DPS or don't know the mechanics. Long mechanic-heavy fights take a lot of concentration from the tank and its super obvious when we mess up.
Don't show up with bad DPS or not knowing the mechanics and expect the tank to cover half your job while doing their own. That's exactly when the tank is trying their hardest just to do their own job.


As for trials, you should be getting more than enough effective DPS from the buffs/debuffs/sets the tank is using than you would if they built for dealing damage instead.

dazee

First off, Tanks need to do more damage. However I agree that, all other factors remaining the same would make it a bad idea due to how endgame content has been designed around a no damage turtle tank for so long.

Secondly, I know healers can do okish damage, thats why I said the problem is much more significant with tanks.

Starlight_Whisper

If we wanted to do then we would of picked that not tank or healer

VaranisArano

dazee wrote: »

First off, Tanks need to do more damage. However I agree that, all other factors remaining the same would make it a bad idea due to how endgame content has been designed around a no damage turtle tank for so long.

Rebalancing end game content has its own issues. I believe idk already pointed out the problems that tanky players who can deal damage cause in PVP. Plus more damage often equals more power creep which leads back to ZOS nerfing other stuff because they don't want old content becoming obsolete.

idk

dazee wrote: »

First off, Tanks need to do more damage. However I agree that, all other factors remaining the same would make it a bad idea due to how endgame content has been designed around a no damage turtle tank for so long.

Secondly, I know healers can do okish damage, thats why I said the problem is much more significant with tanks.

Why do tanks need to do more damage? I have not see the case made for that.

The fact is that all group content in this game has been tanked successfully many times with tanks doing the damage the are doing now.

Second, healers can do good damage. They can do almost, if not as good, as a full DD. Much of it really depends on their CP. These are facts of how the game is designed.

dazee

VaranisArano wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

First off, Tanks need to do more damage. However I agree that, all other factors remaining the same would make it a bad idea due to how endgame content has been designed around a no damage turtle tank for so long.

Rebalancing end game content has its own issues. I believe idk already pointed out the problems that tanky players who can deal damage cause in PVP. Plus more damage often equals more power creep which leads back to ZOS nerfing other stuff because they don't want old content becoming obsolete.

The pvp issue is not an issue about tank damage it's an issue about the core way pvp works in ESO being flawed. until skills can work differently in pvp it will never be balanced and pvp concerns will end up ruining pve balance.

idk

dazee wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

First off, Tanks need to do more damage. However I agree that, all other factors remaining the same would make it a bad idea due to how endgame content has been designed around a no damage turtle tank for so long.

Rebalancing end game content has its own issues. I believe idk already pointed out the problems that tanky players who can deal damage cause in PVP. Plus more damage often equals more power creep which leads back to ZOS nerfing other stuff because they don't want old content becoming obsolete.

The pvp issue is not an issue about tank damage it's an issue about the core way pvp works in ESO being flawed. until skills can work differently in pvp it will never be balanced and pvp concerns will end up ruining pve balance.

No. It is an issue with how combat is designed and with the current design tanks can do decent damage in PvP which also means they can do decent damage in PvE. It is a choice to how they build.

Besides, the fact is no content in ESO requires the tank to do more damage. All group content in ESO that needs a tank has been cleared successfully many tames. As such, the facts do not demonstrate a need to increase the damage tanks do.

dazee

You clearly don't understand the way MMO balancing works when the goal is making each role fun on its own -and- in a group.

it's true tanks CAN do decent damage but the fact is endgame content forces them into turtle gear and builds that can't. the game has no build swap feature built in and the add ons are very unreliable and often buggy and must be updated each patch with a short period of simply not working.

If you still don't want tanks to do damage, you arent thinking about balance or fun but yourself, and probably don't tank often.

I mean, I knew from the start theres no point asking for decent rational changes to ESO, when they cant even fix bugs we've had for years but I had hoped the community would have more sense than to tell me I'm wrong on this.

idk

dazee wrote: »

You clearly don't understand the way MMO balancing works when the goal is making each role fun on its own -and- in a group.

it's true tanks CAN do decent damage but the fact is endgame content forces them into turtle gear and builds that can't. the game has no build swap feature built in and the add ons are very unreliable and often buggy and must be updated each patch with a short period of simply not working.

If you still don't want tanks to do damage, you arent thinking about balance or fun but yourself, and probably don't tank often.

I mean, I knew from the start theres no point asking for decent rational changes to ESO, when they cant even fix bugs we've had for years but I had hoped the community would have more sense than to tell me I'm wrong on this.

Please do not say we don't understand the way MMO balancing works because are in disagreement. Myself and others in this thread that disagree with what is suggested have played multiple MMORPGs and have cleared much of the content in ESO. So we have a pretty good grasp of both MMORPGs and ESO specifically.

Considering we do have a lot of tanks in ESO which strongly suggests there is not a "fun" issue with tanking. As more than one of us have mentioned here, we like ESO tanking better than WoW or FF14 tanking.

zvavi

dazee wrote: »

You clearly don't understand the way MMO balancing works when the goal is making each role fun on its own -and- in a group.

What non group content? overland is the most joke of joke. In addition if tanking is not fun for you, don't do it. Others enjoy it. Tanking in ESO is more dynamic and more fun than brainless"I am another dd, but the boss hits me" kind of tanking. Not your cup of tea? Don't tank.

If you still don't want tanks to do damage, you arent thinking about balance or fun but yourself, and probably don't tank often.

I agree that I dd more than I tank. That's because i mostly do dungeons, and in a group of 4 guildies, that at least 3 can tank, Many times I will not be the tank. Then again, last dungeon I did was tanking vLoM pledge full pug, so I wouldn't say I don't tank often.

the fact is endgame content forces them into turtle gear

I am sorry bro I lost you my tanks run X3 support gears.

I knew from the start theres no point asking for decent rational changes to ESO,

Show me one mmo that Doesn't have lack of tanks compared to dds. One. Then I might consider agreeing that your suggestion is a decent rational change. Up till then, it is your opinion, and not a fact.

I had hoped the community would have more sense than to tell me I'm wrong on this.

People hope for others to agree with them for self satisfaction, no worries, it is natural. But everyone have their own opinions, you can't expect people to agree with you. Now I will go back to my main arguments about your post:

1. I enjoy the tanking in this game more than the tanking in games that you generate agro by dealing damage.
2. In the games I played that tanks were dealing damage, tanks were still hard to find for groups. Even if the groups were only 1/6 tank.

idk

zvavi wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

You clearly don't understand the way MMO balancing works when the goal is making each role fun on its own -and- in a group.

What non group content? overland is the most joke of joke. In addition if tanking is not fun for you, don't do it. Others enjoy it. Tanking in ESO is more dynamic and more fun than brainless"I am another dd, but the boss hits me" kind of tanking. Not your cup of tea? Don't tank.

Heck, I swap gear out, some skills on one bar, I do plenty of damage for solo questing while still being able to tank a WB if I fight one. Even without changing CP and only one bar for DPS I probably do more DPS than most DDs that solo queue for dungeons.

VaranisArano

dazee wrote: »

You clearly don't understand the way MMO balancing works when the goal is making each role fun on its own -and- in a group.

it's true tanks CAN do decent damage but the fact is endgame content forces them into turtle gear and builds that can't. the game has no build swap feature built in and the add ons are very unreliable and often buggy and must be updated each patch with a short period of simply not working.

If you still don't want tanks to do damage, you arent thinking about balance or fun but yourself, and probably don't tank often.

I mean, I knew from the start theres no point asking for decent rational changes to ESO, when they cant even fix bugs we've had for years but I had hoped the community would have more sense than to tell me I'm wrong on this.

Well, if you didn't want to hear differing opinions, I'm not sure you came to the right forum, sorry.

1. For better or for worse, ZOS seems committed to balancing PVE and PVP together. If your idea depends on separating the two so your tanky damage dealers don't unbalance PVP, good luck convincing ZOS to backtrack on years of bthat design decision.

2. I do main a tank, but thank you for informing me that I must not have fun and I definitely don't tank very often. I didn't know that about myself.

3. Dungeons are balanced around Groupfinder with the idea that four random players need to have obvious roles to fill in order to complete the content. When a goodly portion of random damage dealers do, um, poor to middling DPS, their poor tanks have two choices. One, they can get tankier to deal with long, grueling boss fights as the DDs take forever to kill stuff. Or they can be less tanky in order to cover for the DDs who were supposed to killing stuff and aren't. But that's dangerous, because when a tank fails, its obvious.

Note: that's for random groups. Among pre-made groups who are optimized for efficiency, they use a group configuration that blows your idea out of the water: 1 tank, 3 Damage Dealers.

Why? Well, first off, its a lot easier for the DDs to double-dip into damage and self-healing or the tank goes tank/healer hybrid than it is for a tank to double-dip into tankiness and damage. That's just the way ESO is designed with mag/stam/health stats, so again, good luck convincing the Devs to change that.
Second, its because for efficient DPS, you really do need a tank who can hold boss aggro, keep the boss in the AOEs, control the adds, buff/debuff, take the big hits, block, bash, interrupt, and follow mechanics so the three DDs can get on with their rotations and admire those big DPS numbers.
Finally, a capable third DD is going to deal more damage than a hybrid Healer+hybrid Tank, even with having to self heal.


Unless we're talking "I want a full redesign of Endgame content separate from PVP, ZOS, make it so," I don't see this changing anytime soon.

BejaProphet

In most mmo’s there is such a thing as a tank. It may be called a guardian, a blood knight, whatever. But it is an actual class meant for tanking that can be buffed or nerfed.

In this game there is (strictly speaking) no such animal. In this game a “tank” is merely a person who is trying to do something. This person has access to the same armor, same skills, same weapons as any other player.

The only thing that makes them a tank is what they are trying to do and that they make choices they suppose will help.


Here is my point. There is no game file labeled “tank” the developers can open and augment dps. YOU are choosing your own damage potential.

So, “buff a tank’s damage” is actually an incoherent statement in this game.

You can buff 1 hand and shield, you can buff heavy armor, you can add damage abilities that scale on health...

But there is no thing called a tank to buff.

TLDR. Buffing tanks isn’t bad, it’s impossible.

Xuhora

dazee wrote: »

You clearly don't understand the way MMO balancing works when the goal is making each role fun on its own -and- in a group.

it's true tanks CAN do decent damage but the fact is endgame content forces them into turtle gear and builds that can't. the game has no build swap feature built in and the add ons are very unreliable and often buggy and must be updated each patch with a short period of simply not working.

If you still don't want tanks to do damage, you arent thinking about balance or fun but yourself, and probably don't tank often.

.

first we have to agree on the baseline difference in the playstyle between the tank/healer roles and the DPS roles. i think i will define the difference into the two styles "active" and "passive"

Passive roles - DPS
a big big portion of the dmg output is a rotation. so DPS chars aim to perfect what ever rotation they seem fit and during fights the goal ist to play this rotation with the lowest disruption possible, while dodging red circles and occasional mechanics. they only have to passively react to the script of the bossfight so to speak.

active roles - tank/heal
indeed there is a kind of a rotation involved, maintaining buffs/debuffs or taunts and hots. the rest of the skills, what ever the player may choose, is there to prevent stuff from happening, i.E. players not dying, mobs stacking in one place, bosses facing away from group etc.

the point im trying to make is: while you may see it as fun to merge the active roles closer to the passives roles by suggesting that the dmg output has to be higher, i will say the exact opposit: pull them further appart, because passively maintaining a set rotation while stepping out of mechanics and AoEs is not what i would describe as fun.

Sure it can be fun, but it gets old quiet quick in my opinion. the more the roles differ from each other the more diversity a game offers to its players. an quiet frankly i have to say i realised that as i jumped into classic a while ago just to feel the nostalgia and i got a big reminder how it was to play healer way back then: your contribution to group dmg is around zero.
im not saying in any way that this is better and more fun than ESO, but it offers a bigger difference in playstiles, so the role you chose has impact on how you play the game.

edited for a ton of typos

Marginis

It's only with some content that this is an issue, and only some vet content at that. That said, I dislike how the roles are designed in the status quo (which just promotes a DPS centered ideology, hence OP wishing for tanks to do more damage, and people generally disliking tanking roles, even moreso than other games). It would be nicer if the game wasn't so tank dependant when the tank makes just one mistake and gets one-shotted, or if the game didn't let the tank get one-shotted if they have a decent build, good teamwork, and acceptable awareness.

BejaProphet

It is very possible to make a build able to survive a one shot. You have to use sets that are about just you though.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

The "healers should do dmg too and be fine with it" stance is a very non-healer thing to say, lets be honest. The reason we want to be healers is because... wait for it.... we want to heal, and we want our heals to be NEEDED. Mitigating dmg is literally the opposite of dealing dmg.

I myself don't mind a heal/dps hybrid role, but I would rather be challenged to keep everyone alive. Unfortunately, ESO does not provide a very satisfying healer experience. Most mechanics rely too heavily on DPS, and healing in this game goes from "not needed" to "one-shot, middle finger to healer." And healer culture is another problem. Lots of groups treat you like a servant, expecting you to run this set or this build. And you're still d4mned if you do, and d4mned if you don't, with "fake-role" culture.

As it stands, I rely on the dual DPS/heal set up to feel engaged, otherwise I will run through dungeons or trials feeling useless/pointless. This could easily be resolved if mechanics were a bit more intuitive. Instead of one massive attack, how about lower dmg, but in rapid succession? How about adding followers in dungeons that also need to be healed (like an escort/protect mission)? Then there's mobs.... with a good tank, the healer will still feel pretty useless until you get to the next boss. If more low lvl monsters dealt DoT, maybe the healer would feel more pressure to heal the tank. There are several ways to go about this.

Castle Thorn did a decent job. During the second boss fight, players can get knocked into a pit, and the pit deals intense DoT. The final boss will disappear occasionally, leaving ONE safe spot that moves around, and anyone caught outside, again, receives intense DoT (and there are times you will need to step into the danger zone, unless you pull the targets in).

If you want to compare mechanics to "moments" that make a particular role shine, there are hardly any moments a tank or healer can show any prowess, while DPS just bypasses any would-be challenging moments. In fact, it feels all moments are designed to glorify DPS, while few are even remotely tank/heal oriented.

Wayrest Sewers II comes to mind though, fighting the Lich. When he ports to the center, he begins siphoning everyone's hp, and the healer is incredibly stressed if everyone is scattered. I would count that as a healer moment. Even when everyone cooperates and huddles, you still need to make sure you don't trip on your heals. When everyone is scattered.... well may they rest in peace. Its still an easy moment though if you ask me. Just drop your healing ultimate and call it good. What if that mechanic continued for longer though? What if the tank needed to do something complicated to stop his siphon? Its like we have these "almost epic" moments that fall short of the mark and just feel underwhelming in the end.

I would like to see a boss mechanic that separates all roles, and has them each complete a different task to return to the boss. Or what if DPS were ported into a room with an endless onslaught of mobs, and the healer or tank needed to do something special to save them? What if it was 3 random roles separated from one? Basically, a different version of Fungal Grotto II, when the spider lady banishes a random person. Any mechanic that strays away from "DPS through the mechanic" will be an improvement, even if it doesn't specifically call upon a healer or tank.

That's the healing dilemma, in my opinion.

Greystag

It's more like: Healers and Tanks enable DDs to do more damage.

I play a healer because I like healing and buffing my allies. I don't want to be a Heal/DD hybrid. I also know I am way more valuable doing this.

VaranisArano

Greystag wrote: »

It's more like: Healers and Tanks enable DDs to do more damage.

I play a healer because I like healing and buffing my allies. I don't want to be a Heal/DD hybrid. I also know I am way more valuable doing this.

Yes. Healers and tanks enable good DDs to do more damage.

Unfortunately, when we end up with low DPS DDs, most of the buffs, debuffs, and boss/crowd positioning that would normally maximize DPS in a better group are effectively wasted.

newtinmpls

Jaimeh wrote: »

It depends on the content you do and the group you're playing with. .

I think that this pretty much says it all.

Or a lot of it - and this next one kind of ties the loose knots:

VaranisArano wrote: »

Yes. Healers and tanks enable good DDs to do more damage.

Unfortunately, when we end up with low DPS DDs, most of the buffs, debuffs, and boss/crowd positioning that would normally maximize DPS in a better group are effectively wasted.

Juju_beans

I have a templar. With a good group I get to do a lot of damage vs healing. With a weak group I do more healing and less damage.

When I queue up as a healer it can go either way depending on the group makeup, skill level.
I like this much better than some other games where healers have no damage ability.

With ESO you get both.