Rapid Maneuver update from ZOS_JensR

Malborn66 · September 2020

ZOS_ConnorG

I have yet to see a meaningful justification for the change from ZOS.

As a primarily solo PVE Player, all my characters got Fast Ride as part of the original set up.

When ZOS flipped the skill that put me at 7/12 characters having lost it.

Due to my pursuit of AP to recover the situation I have 3/12 still needing to get it.

My beef is that Fast Ride is essential for PVP Quests and as an irregular solo PvP Player I am horribly penalised by the change. (Characters needing <60K AP to get it) Not only do all my Quests take longer because of the lack of speed, but I am also more vulnerable to Gankers when carrying out the quests due to being slower.

How is this good, fair or Justifiable?

Malborn
PC-EU

ThePedge · September 2020

Do a a couple of hours of PvP and unlock it?

Vigor is essential for Stamina characters, Rapids is just non-essential quality of life.

Sgrug · September 2020

ThePedge wrote: »

Do a a couple of hours of PvP and unlock it?

Vigor is essential for Stamina characters, Rapids is just non-essential quality of life.

This has been thoroughly debunked. Vigor is not essential and it was always available just took longer to get like Rapids now. The change to Vigor was not to ensure ALL stamina would have it, they already did, the change was SPECIFICALLY to make it easier for new beginning low level players to get it sooner. Given the game played for 6 years like this obviously it could not have been THAT Essential and most low level players could care less, it is used at end game more so.

Having made 20 characters ( yes I have more than 1 account), 9 of them stamina I can say with ABSOLUTE comfort Vigor is NOT ESSENTIAL and I am not the only one saying it.

Regardless, NO ONE has suggested moving Vigor back, all the suggestions request Rapids be achievable earlier like it was before. There is no need for anyone worried about Vigor to come to these forums posting as if it needs defended.

Malborn66 · September 2020

No, what you mean is do weeks of scouting quests and get ganked to make it even more enjoyable!

I am not a willing PvP Player and [snip].

Malborn
PC-EU

[edited for profanity/baiting]

joerginger · September 2020

Jaraal wrote: »

And the irony is that it was faster to get Vigor with Rapids than it is now to get Rapids with Vigor.

Now it's harder to get any Alliance War skills other than Vigor and Siege Shield, because you may not make it to your objectives in time at a snail's pace.

That is precisely the point. This way we should feel more pressured into spending thousands of crowns to buy the assault skill line for our alts.

linuxlady · September 2020

So wait... vigor is now easy to get? Woo! I cant tell you how much i hated leveling up in pvp just to get vigor for my stam toon. So glad for this change. TY!

Sgrug · September 2020

joerginger wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

And the irony is that it was faster to get Vigor with Rapids than it is now to get Rapids with Vigor.

Now it's harder to get any Alliance War skills other than Vigor and Siege Shield, because you may not make it to your objectives in time at a snail's pace.

That is precisely the point. This way we should feel more pressured into spending thousands of crowns to buy the assault skill line for our alts.

And there it is, fact presented,
COMPLETE ABSENCE OF THE REASONS FOR RAPIDS BEING LEVEL 5 AFTER A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF FEEDBACK ADAMANTLY REQUESTING IT NOT BE,
player forced to then speculate as to why Rapids is level 5 since the aforementioned company has remained silent.

This is not the stuff of conspiracies, this is basic human nature to create a model of information in an attempt to make sense of the world lived in.

When information is denied people will always assume the cause is related to some form of reason that is negative, detrimental, unethical, nefarious, deception, just pick a descriptor. When information, which is in no way related to a person's well being, is withheld it typically is not for a good reason. We are all human and we all have the same experiences this is not some new revelation, this has been going on since we first started communicating however many thousands of years ago.

Malborn66 · September 2020

While I can acknowledge some of my characters have (to some degree) benefitted from the swap.

The thing is that if this skill is so essential for Stam characters why did it take them 4+ years before the flipped the skills?

I refuse to respond to ZOS attempts to get Crowns off me (Cheap Riding lessons, gambling Crates etc.)

Thus I have been reduced to doing loads of quests despite the time penalties forced on me by ZOS.

I have pretty much recovered most of my characters bar 3. One will probably make it in the next week or 2 (21K needed).
But the other 2 are well screwed (52K and much more for my laggard).
The only good aspect of this is that the Laggard has never really done anything in Cyrodiil so there are a bunch of quests to sweeten the job.

Most of my characters have completed the Cyrodiil objectives, so it is not that I am not engaging with Cyrodiil, just avoiding all the fighting about resources and keeps & stuff.

Malborn
PC-EU
Grand Master Craftsman
1334 CP

zaria · September 2020

joerginger wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

And the irony is that it was faster to get Vigor with Rapids than it is now to get Rapids with Vigor.

Now it's harder to get any Alliance War skills other than Vigor and Siege Shield, because you may not make it to your objectives in time at a snail's pace.

That is precisely the point. This way we should feel more pressured into spending thousands of crowns to buy the assault skill line for our alts.

Problem is that you need to level assault up to level 10 to be able to buy the skill line on alts, that is an million AP rater than 88K for assault 5. Doubt many who hate PvP get an million AP.

UGotBenched91 · September 2020

I respect that they actually answered a post (I’ve never seen any devs answer a post on this forum) it seems highly unlikely this change isn’t related to trying to push crown store. With that being said, it’s not that hard to get level 5 and I’m not sure why people are reacting so poorly.

Sgrug · September 2020

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

I respect that they actually answered a post (I’ve never seen any devs answer a post on this forum) it seems highly unlikely this change isn’t related to trying to push crown store. With that being said, it’s not that hard to get level 5 and I’m not sure why people are reacting so poorly.

This is one reason:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6970754/#Comment_6970754

Ratinira · September 2020

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

With that being said, it’s not that hard to get level 5 and I’m not sure why people are reacting so poorly.

Because if that is so easy there was no need to make any changes at all😉 it was not hard to get vigor, wasn't it?

People lost something they used for years and were thrown something useless instead.
If you are still failing to understand imagine that someone come to you and take away something you own, through you some rubbish instead and said "that for your own good, be happy". Will you be happy?

Lord-Otto · September 2020

And don't forget unlike the years before, mount sprint now consumes mount stamina. Without Rapids, your mount can sprint for 30 meters, then it's dry. I made a new character yesterday, and the mount is completely useless. I can sprint faster and for longer with my feet. It's stupid.

code65536 · September 2020

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

The Combat team is investigating the change with Rapid Maneuver and is looking at available options.

What is there to investigate? As soon as the rapids change was announced prior to the U27 PTS, there was already a reasonable solution that got suggested: Make Vigor the first skill that requires Assault 2, make Rapids the second skill that requires Assault 3. Done.

@ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_BrianWheeler The problem is that the ramping cost of the skill line rank up means that Assault 5 requires over 12x as much total AP (98000) as Assault 3 (8000). ZOS can make Vigor the first skill. ZOS can make Rapids the second skill. The only change that needs to be made is to reduce Rapids from Assault 5 to Assault 3. This was suggested to them even before PTS, in the "combat preview" thread. This is not a hard solution that requires a ton of "investigation".

The fact that this feedback was ignored through all of PTS is simply unacceptable. And platitudes about how ZOS hears our displeasure ring comically hollow.

SydneyGrey · September 2020

Jaraal wrote: »

And the irony is that it was faster to get Vigor with Rapids than it is now to get Rapids with Vigor.
Now it's harder to get any Alliance War skills other than Vigor and Siege Shield, because you may not make it to your objectives in time at a snail's pace.

This. So much this.
You'll miss half of the fights because of being so slow, and if you get ganked on your way to a fight, you'll never make it to the fight at all. Keeps and resources will be flipped before you have time to get there.

UGotBenched91 · September 2020

Ratinira wrote: »

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

With that being said, it’s not that hard to get level 5 and I’m not sure why people are reacting so poorly.

Because if that is so easy there was no need to make any changes at all😉 it was not hard to get vigor, wasn't it?

People lost something they used for years and were thrown something useless instead.
If you are still failing to understand imagine that someone come to you and take away something you own, through you some rubbish instead and said "that for your own good, be happy". Will you be happy?

Ah well I didn’t view it that way as I compared to to many of the tedious PVE skill lines it’s much shorter to get. But, fair point although the condescending winky face and tone in the middle there could have not been added to still say your point 🤗

eKsDee · September 2020

Best solution that appeases both crowds is to simply move one of them into Support, such that the moved skill unlocks first within the Support skill line, alongside the corresponding Assault skill.

Easiest way of doing so is to simply swap one of them with Siege Shield, then swap Siege Shield with Caltrops so it unlocks earlier (so that support builds don't need to wait as long for Siege Shield, since nearly nobody uses Caltrops anymore).

If they want to keep the Assault/Support theme intact, then they can swap Vigor with Revealing Flare (Vigor is used to support either yourself, or yourself and allies; Revealing Flare is used to reveal targets during an assault/fight; swapping them makes more sense thematically), and shift Vigor to unlock at Support level 2, alongside Rapids at Assault level 2.

MinnesotaKid · September 2020

From Joe's original thread.... Looks like you got your english CM reply...

Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feedback about this change. We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS, and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here. Ultimately, this swap happened so Stamina builds have access to a heal earlier in the leveling experience. While we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient, Vigor is considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability, so giving access to the heal earlier is a major quality of life improvement for those players. We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.
Gina Bruno
ESO Community Manager
Dev Tracker | Service Alerts | ESO Twitter | My Twitter

ZOS_Lunar · September 2020

Greetings!

We're going to go ahead and close this thread as there has been an official update. You can find Gina's comment here. You're welcome to continue the discussion, but we ask that you do so in the existing thread.

Thanks for your understanding.