Maintenance for the week of February 23:
· [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – February 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – February 23, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
· [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – February 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – February 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – February 23, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
· [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – February 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
The maintenance is complete, and the PTS is now available.
Diminishing Returns for Proc sets
-
SshadowSscale✭✭✭✭✭Recapitated wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »i dont think it would be a bad thing to add a bit more scaling but it would be preferable if they balanced it instead off a standardized number rather than your max ability. This way both the low and high side are reigned in somewhat. That being said i still think they should cost something. No free damage.
Hang on a second, in order to wear a proc set you ARE GIVING UP SOMETHING, like 5 piece bonus for damage or stats or something. And wearing 2 proc sets you give up 2 bonuses to get a proc that has a cooldown. By the logic in this thread if someone wears 2 or more sets that specifically boost mag/stam or boost damage that would be OP and they should cost more like more ULT.
BTW how is Stacking Mag/stam or weapon/spell damage NOT FREE DAMAGE it literally increases all your skills damage output, and most sets give flat bonus, no proc condition or cooldown. This whole proc set discussion has nothing to do with balance, or something being OP. It is 100% a case of a lot of people got used to stat/damage stacking style of play and ingenious people started using/combining old/new set combinations that are more powerful in some situations. Stat/damage stacking is so boring in PVE and PVP, I'm glad there are more options.
I can't even give this a sensible answer... I can imagine you also think animation cancelling is an exploit?
Let the record show this is the person who also said jumping while blocking is an exploit.
@Merforum if you stack max stats ALL your skills become SOMEWHAT more powerful compared to not having your 5-piece bonuses and you have to pay resources to use them, that's why it's not free.
Except for very specific high-risk/high-reward builds that require a lot of setup before bursting (mostly bombers and bankers) nobody can kill by engaging for one second and then cloaking, because stat bonuses don't overload individual actions.
With certain proc sets, instead of distributing your damage across ALL your skills, you can overload a single skill so that it could do enough damage to kill someone by itself without requiring SUSTAINED engagement. That's why people keep mentioning PI, sheer venom and venomous/syvarra or Stampede, Unleashed and Merciless.
The cost of doing that damage is also paltry compared to the cost of outhealing it or cleansing unless your spec/class is specifically designed to do that and nothing else, let alone the cost of dealing equal damage using max stats both in terms of GCDs of risk exposure (line of sight, range, uncloaking, etc) and resources.
That part is especially true given that you can put all your other eggs into the sustain and survivability basket without affecting your damage at all — food, potions, glyphs, attributes and so on. So even though you lose max stats on your sets you're able to get combinations of survivability, sustain, and damage that are not otherwise available — for good reasons.
Don't misrepresent what I said, that there are people in vids and 1 guy showing how to do it, where if you target them with meteor or other Ultimate and if they jump while block at the exact right moment they take ZERO damage. I'm sure he had to practice to get it perfect so most of you might call it expert skill. They can fix that or not, doesn't matter to me but these cheesy exploits don't make the game funner.
I perfectly understand the issue about Proc sets vs stat sets and many other aspects of the game. People will either complain until the get their way or proc sets will be here to stay and make the game much more fun. I'm OK either way. But I would prefer it if smarts, appropriate builds and strategy should create better results than whoever smashes buttons the fastest or uses macros like it is now.
He still takes the damage from the meteor impact. Blocking reduces the damage from the initial impact(wich is the counter to meteor not an exploit) and if you jump right as it hits you still take the initial impact damage you are just avoiding the dot dmage that is left in the ground..... Wich most people will move out of anyways.... This is not an exploit..... Its is clever use of in game mechanics aka block and jump....unless zos says that Blocking and jumping are exploits wich they have not said.0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Recapitated wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »i dont think it would be a bad thing to add a bit more scaling but it would be preferable if they balanced it instead off a standardized number rather than your max ability. This way both the low and high side are reigned in somewhat. That being said i still think they should cost something. No free damage.
Hang on a second, in order to wear a proc set you ARE GIVING UP SOMETHING, like 5 piece bonus for damage or stats or something. And wearing 2 proc sets you give up 2 bonuses to get a proc that has a cooldown. By the logic in this thread if someone wears 2 or more sets that specifically boost mag/stam or boost damage that would be OP and they should cost more like more ULT.
BTW how is Stacking Mag/stam or weapon/spell damage NOT FREE DAMAGE it literally increases all your skills damage output, and most sets give flat bonus, no proc condition or cooldown. This whole proc set discussion has nothing to do with balance, or something being OP. It is 100% a case of a lot of people got used to stat/damage stacking style of play and ingenious people started using/combining old/new set combinations that are more powerful in some situations. Stat/damage stacking is so boring in PVE and PVP, I'm glad there are more options.
I can't even give this a sensible answer... I can imagine you also think animation cancelling is an exploit?
Let the record show this is the person who also said jumping while blocking is an exploit.
@Merforum if you stack max stats ALL your skills become SOMEWHAT more powerful compared to not having your 5-piece bonuses and you have to pay resources to use them, that's why it's not free.
Except for very specific high-risk/high-reward builds that require a lot of setup before bursting (mostly bombers and bankers) nobody can kill by engaging for one second and then cloaking, because stat bonuses don't overload individual actions.
With certain proc sets, instead of distributing your damage across ALL your skills, you can overload a single skill so that it could do enough damage to kill someone by itself without requiring SUSTAINED engagement. That's why people keep mentioning PI, sheer venom and venomous/syvarra or Stampede, Unleashed and Merciless.
The cost of doing that damage is also paltry compared to the cost of outhealing it or cleansing unless your spec/class is specifically designed to do that and nothing else, let alone the cost of dealing equal damage using max stats both in terms of GCDs of risk exposure (line of sight, range, uncloaking, etc) and resources.
That part is especially true given that you can put all your other eggs into the sustain and survivability basket without affecting your damage at all — food, potions, glyphs, attributes and so on. So even though you lose max stats on your sets you're able to get combinations of survivability, sustain, and damage that are not otherwise available — for good reasons.
Don't misrepresent what I said, that there are people in vids and 1 guy showing how to do it, where if you target them with meteor or other Ultimate and if they jump while block at the exact right moment they take ZERO damage. I'm sure he had to practice to get it perfect so most of you might call it expert skill. They can fix that or not, doesn't matter to me but these cheesy exploits don't make the game funner.
I perfectly understand the issue about Proc sets vs stat sets and many other aspects of the game. People will either complain until the get their way or proc sets will be here to stay and make the game much more fun. I'm OK either way. But I would prefer it if smarts, appropriate builds and strategy should create better results than whoever smashes buttons the fastest or uses macros like it is now.
It's not an exploit avoiding someone's ultimate, with most other ultimates this can be done by simply dodging or blocking. As meteor leaves a ground dot jumping at the right time can avoid this damage. It is hard to pull off and skilled. If zos felt it was an exploit they could have fixed and if enough people felt cheated by it they would complain.
Pressing the right buttons at the right time is the key to success in every video game ever conceived. I'm not sure why you feel this game is any different. I play with a lot of great player and don't know any that use macros. This might be a thing in pve, but it wouldn't help you in PvP as you require different priority actions all the time. For instance you may execute into a roll dodge to avoid incoming damage whilst finishing a low health enemy.
It is also impossible to bypass GCD. Only proc sets allow additional burst within GCD, dots and auras such as blade cloak are also an exception. Their damage is obviously a tick though and not an instant 5k hit. So again macros won't help, it is literally light attacking before each skill, why would you need a macro to do that? Any other form of animation cancelling occurs naturally in response to what is happening as I described above.
When you have mastered how to efficiently use your attack rotations and defensive rotations. That's when strategy comes into play. My small group in cyrodill frequently takes on much larger groups by doing exactly this. Pulling them into a bottle neck flanking them at the back of the keep or simply prioritising targets.
0 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Recapitated wrote: »Sheer Venom could be redesigned to make your execute abilities have an additional execute mechanic below 50% health and no DOT. That way you have to capitalize on it and it use GCDs to get the damage.
This is a cool idea.
I love proc sets too, but in general they are too braindead easy and far too prone to exploit... Looking at you stamsorcs and nightblades.
If ZOS would actually put some thought into proc conditions it could be a pretty great experience.1 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »Recapitated wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »i dont think it would be a bad thing to add a bit more scaling but it would be preferable if they balanced it instead off a standardized number rather than your max ability. This way both the low and high side are reigned in somewhat. That being said i still think they should cost something. No free damage.
Hang on a second, in order to wear a proc set you ARE GIVING UP SOMETHING, like 5 piece bonus for damage or stats or something. And wearing 2 proc sets you give up 2 bonuses to get a proc that has a cooldown. By the logic in this thread if someone wears 2 or more sets that specifically boost mag/stam or boost damage that would be OP and they should cost more like more ULT.
BTW how is Stacking Mag/stam or weapon/spell damage NOT FREE DAMAGE it literally increases all your skills damage output, and most sets give flat bonus, no proc condition or cooldown. This whole proc set discussion has nothing to do with balance, or something being OP. It is 100% a case of a lot of people got used to stat/damage stacking style of play and ingenious people started using/combining old/new set combinations that are more powerful in some situations. Stat/damage stacking is so boring in PVE and PVP, I'm glad there are more options.
I can't even give this a sensible answer... I can imagine you also think animation cancelling is an exploit?
Let the record show this is the person who also said jumping while blocking is an exploit.
@Merforum if you stack max stats ALL your skills become SOMEWHAT more powerful compared to not having your 5-piece bonuses and you have to pay resources to use them, that's why it's not free.
Except for very specific high-risk/high-reward builds that require a lot of setup before bursting (mostly bombers and bankers) nobody can kill by engaging for one second and then cloaking, because stat bonuses don't overload individual actions.
With certain proc sets, instead of distributing your damage across ALL your skills, you can overload a single skill so that it could do enough damage to kill someone by itself without requiring SUSTAINED engagement. That's why people keep mentioning PI, sheer venom and venomous/syvarra or Stampede, Unleashed and Merciless.
The cost of doing that damage is also paltry compared to the cost of outhealing it or cleansing unless your spec/class is specifically designed to do that and nothing else, let alone the cost of dealing equal damage using max stats both in terms of GCDs of risk exposure (line of sight, range, uncloaking, etc) and resources.
That part is especially true given that you can put all your other eggs into the sustain and survivability basket without affecting your damage at all — food, potions, glyphs, attributes and so on. So even though you lose max stats on your sets you're able to get combinations of survivability, sustain, and damage that are not otherwise available — for good reasons.
Don't misrepresent what I said, that there are people in vids and 1 guy showing how to do it, where if you target them with meteor or other Ultimate and if they jump while block at the exact right moment they take ZERO damage. I'm sure he had to practice to get it perfect so most of you might call it expert skill. They can fix that or not, doesn't matter to me but these cheesy exploits don't make the game funner.
I perfectly understand the issue about Proc sets vs stat sets and many other aspects of the game. People will either complain until the get their way or proc sets will be here to stay and make the game much more fun. I'm OK either way. But I would prefer it if smarts, appropriate builds and strategy should create better results than whoever smashes buttons the fastest or uses macros like it is now.
It's not an exploit avoiding someone's ultimate, with most other ultimates this can be done by simply dodging or blocking. As meteor leaves a ground dot jumping at the right time can avoid this damage. It is hard to pull off and skilled. If zos felt it was an exploit they could have fixed and if enough people felt cheated by it they would complain.
Pressing the right buttons at the right time is the key to success in every video game ever conceived. I'm not sure why you feel this game is any different. I play with a lot of great player and don't know any that use macros. This might be a thing in pve, but it wouldn't help you in PvP as you require different priority actions all the time. For instance you may execute into a roll dodge to avoid incoming damage whilst finishing a low health enemy.
It is also impossible to bypass GCD. Only proc sets allow additional burst within GCD, dots and auras such as blade cloak are also an exception. Their damage is obviously a tick though and not an instant 5k hit. So again macros won't help, it is literally light attacking before each skill, why would you need a macro to do that? Any other form of animation cancelling occurs naturally in response to what is happening as I described above.
When you have mastered how to efficiently use your attack rotations and defensive rotations. That's when strategy comes into play. My small group in cyrodill frequently takes on much larger groups by doing exactly this. Pulling them into a bottle neck flanking them at the back of the keep or simply prioritising targets.
I am tired. You are pretending to not understand something so simple. No one is saying that you program every possible combination into the keypad. You just program one key on each bar as your 'Attack rotation' and one as your 'defense rotation' you literally don't lose anything, just getting extra effects with less clicking. As you all keep saying do a light attack before every attack so programming each key to do a LA AND the skill is simple. GCD is a red herring, this is about hitting one key and getting several actions.
I've watch a lot of vids and every time I saw something that looked fishy the user is always using keypad/mouse but NEVER SHOW THEIR HANDS. I know a lot of obsessive people too and they'll do anything it takes to get ahead. But I actually don't care, just think it's weird all you think it is impossible that someone would do it. (see what I did there, I put words in your mouth that I know you didn't actually say)
BTW almost every game I have ever played require a lot of thinking and strategy and literally NO button mashing at all. I physically can't mash buttons super fast for long periods of time anyway. But even if I could I find that to be the worse aspect of this game and would be for anything that makes that less extreme.0 -
MincVinyl✭✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »Recapitated wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »i dont think it would be a bad thing to add a bit more scaling but it would be preferable if they balanced it instead off a standardized number rather than your max ability. This way both the low and high side are reigned in somewhat. That being said i still think they should cost something. No free damage.
Hang on a second, in order to wear a proc set you ARE GIVING UP SOMETHING, like 5 piece bonus for damage or stats or something. And wearing 2 proc sets you give up 2 bonuses to get a proc that has a cooldown. By the logic in this thread if someone wears 2 or more sets that specifically boost mag/stam or boost damage that would be OP and they should cost more like more ULT.
BTW how is Stacking Mag/stam or weapon/spell damage NOT FREE DAMAGE it literally increases all your skills damage output, and most sets give flat bonus, no proc condition or cooldown. This whole proc set discussion has nothing to do with balance, or something being OP. It is 100% a case of a lot of people got used to stat/damage stacking style of play and ingenious people started using/combining old/new set combinations that are more powerful in some situations. Stat/damage stacking is so boring in PVE and PVP, I'm glad there are more options.
I can't even give this a sensible answer... I can imagine you also think animation cancelling is an exploit?
Let the record show this is the person who also said jumping while blocking is an exploit.
@Merforum if you stack max stats ALL your skills become SOMEWHAT more powerful compared to not having your 5-piece bonuses and you have to pay resources to use them, that's why it's not free.
Except for very specific high-risk/high-reward builds that require a lot of setup before bursting (mostly bombers and bankers) nobody can kill by engaging for one second and then cloaking, because stat bonuses don't overload individual actions.
With certain proc sets, instead of distributing your damage across ALL your skills, you can overload a single skill so that it could do enough damage to kill someone by itself without requiring SUSTAINED engagement. That's why people keep mentioning PI, sheer venom and venomous/syvarra or Stampede, Unleashed and Merciless.
The cost of doing that damage is also paltry compared to the cost of outhealing it or cleansing unless your spec/class is specifically designed to do that and nothing else, let alone the cost of dealing equal damage using max stats both in terms of GCDs of risk exposure (line of sight, range, uncloaking, etc) and resources.
That part is especially true given that you can put all your other eggs into the sustain and survivability basket without affecting your damage at all — food, potions, glyphs, attributes and so on. So even though you lose max stats on your sets you're able to get combinations of survivability, sustain, and damage that are not otherwise available — for good reasons.
Don't misrepresent what I said, that there are people in vids and 1 guy showing how to do it, where if you target them with meteor or other Ultimate and if they jump while block at the exact right moment they take ZERO damage. I'm sure he had to practice to get it perfect so most of you might call it expert skill. They can fix that or not, doesn't matter to me but these cheesy exploits don't make the game funner.
I perfectly understand the issue about Proc sets vs stat sets and many other aspects of the game. People will either complain until the get their way or proc sets will be here to stay and make the game much more fun. I'm OK either way. But I would prefer it if smarts, appropriate builds and strategy should create better results than whoever smashes buttons the fastest or uses macros like it is now.
It's not an exploit avoiding someone's ultimate, with most other ultimates this can be done by simply dodging or blocking. As meteor leaves a ground dot jumping at the right time can avoid this damage. It is hard to pull off and skilled. If zos felt it was an exploit they could have fixed and if enough people felt cheated by it they would complain.
Pressing the right buttons at the right time is the key to success in every video game ever conceived. I'm not sure why you feel this game is any different. I play with a lot of great player and don't know any that use macros. This might be a thing in pve, but it wouldn't help you in PvP as you require different priority actions all the time. For instance you may execute into a roll dodge to avoid incoming damage whilst finishing a low health enemy.
It is also impossible to bypass GCD. Only proc sets allow additional burst within GCD, dots and auras such as blade cloak are also an exception. Their damage is obviously a tick though and not an instant 5k hit. So again macros won't help, it is literally light attacking before each skill, why would you need a macro to do that? Any other form of animation cancelling occurs naturally in response to what is happening as I described above.
When you have mastered how to efficiently use your attack rotations and defensive rotations. That's when strategy comes into play. My small group in cyrodill frequently takes on much larger groups by doing exactly this. Pulling them into a bottle neck flanking them at the back of the keep or simply prioritising targets.
I am tired. You are pretending to not understand something so simple. No one is saying that you program every possible combination into the keypad. You just program one key on each bar as your 'Attack rotation' and one as your 'defense rotation' you literally don't lose anything, just getting extra effects with less clicking. As you all keep saying do a light attack before every attack so programming each key to do a LA AND the skill is simple. GCD is a red herring, this is about hitting one key and getting several actions.
I've watch a lot of vids and every time I saw something that looked fishy the user is always using keypad/mouse but NEVER SHOW THEIR HANDS. I know a lot of obsessive people too and they'll do anything it takes to get ahead. But I actually don't care, just think it's weird all you think it is impossible that someone would do it. (see what I did there, I put words in your mouth that I know you didn't actually say)
BTW almost every game I have ever played require a lot of thinking and strategy and literally NO button mashing at all. I physically can't mash buttons super fast for long periods of time anyway. But even if I could I find that to be the worse aspect of this game and would be for anything that makes that less extreme.
Macroing is useless though and only negatively affects you. The only things people macro I assure you, you have no idea about. For instance players would use a macro for a synergy spam in group play. Having a macro auto press X every .1 sec assures that their harmony jewelry is used. Or say if someone wants to regen stamina while sprinting, they would make a toggle that sprints for 1.99 seconds halts for the 0.01 s regen tick and then sprints again. Nobody uses macros in a combat sense due to how the gcd system works (you can only light attack and do an ability each sec.....thats 2 buttons a second, not very hard) With lag and disturbingly poor server performance that is probably borderline illegal at this point it makes little sense to gimp yourself into preset combos that may perhaps fit the situation.0 -
MincVinyl✭✭✭✭✭I want to also mention on a seperate thought that macros dont gain you anything you normally cant achieve through simple practice. If anything it just is used because of pure laziness to learn the game.Edited by MincVinyl on September 26, 2020 7:21AM0
-
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭not to derail but the optimal macro is just to bind a light attack and skill together for each individual skill with a unique timer for each so you always get the timing right and its virtually untraceable. The only place a full macro is employed is pvp for burst patterns but this now has an ingame counter in the form of 3 proc sets and high health/heavy armor.
My faith in people is extremely low and the technology is widely available. That's good enough reason to fix it. it certainly adds to the lag but doesn't add to the gameplay imo and the game would be better off without it.
it is critical that the game be fair for everyone and why some people cant see this seems obvious to me.
Edited by Rungar on September 26, 2020 8:54AMonly a few years left to go now....
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »Recapitated wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »i dont think it would be a bad thing to add a bit more scaling but it would be preferable if they balanced it instead off a standardized number rather than your max ability. This way both the low and high side are reigned in somewhat. That being said i still think they should cost something. No free damage.
Hang on a second, in order to wear a proc set you ARE GIVING UP SOMETHING, like 5 piece bonus for damage or stats or something. And wearing 2 proc sets you give up 2 bonuses to get a proc that has a cooldown. By the logic in this thread if someone wears 2 or more sets that specifically boost mag/stam or boost damage that would be OP and they should cost more like more ULT.
BTW how is Stacking Mag/stam or weapon/spell damage NOT FREE DAMAGE it literally increases all your skills damage output, and most sets give flat bonus, no proc condition or cooldown. This whole proc set discussion has nothing to do with balance, or something being OP. It is 100% a case of a lot of people got used to stat/damage stacking style of play and ingenious people started using/combining old/new set combinations that are more powerful in some situations. Stat/damage stacking is so boring in PVE and PVP, I'm glad there are more options.
I can't even give this a sensible answer... I can imagine you also think animation cancelling is an exploit?
Let the record show this is the person who also said jumping while blocking is an exploit.
@Merforum if you stack max stats ALL your skills become SOMEWHAT more powerful compared to not having your 5-piece bonuses and you have to pay resources to use them, that's why it's not free.
Except for very specific high-risk/high-reward builds that require a lot of setup before bursting (mostly bombers and bankers) nobody can kill by engaging for one second and then cloaking, because stat bonuses don't overload individual actions.
With certain proc sets, instead of distributing your damage across ALL your skills, you can overload a single skill so that it could do enough damage to kill someone by itself without requiring SUSTAINED engagement. That's why people keep mentioning PI, sheer venom and venomous/syvarra or Stampede, Unleashed and Merciless.
The cost of doing that damage is also paltry compared to the cost of outhealing it or cleansing unless your spec/class is specifically designed to do that and nothing else, let alone the cost of dealing equal damage using max stats both in terms of GCDs of risk exposure (line of sight, range, uncloaking, etc) and resources.
That part is especially true given that you can put all your other eggs into the sustain and survivability basket without affecting your damage at all — food, potions, glyphs, attributes and so on. So even though you lose max stats on your sets you're able to get combinations of survivability, sustain, and damage that are not otherwise available — for good reasons.
Don't misrepresent what I said, that there are people in vids and 1 guy showing how to do it, where if you target them with meteor or other Ultimate and if they jump while block at the exact right moment they take ZERO damage. I'm sure he had to practice to get it perfect so most of you might call it expert skill. They can fix that or not, doesn't matter to me but these cheesy exploits don't make the game funner.
I perfectly understand the issue about Proc sets vs stat sets and many other aspects of the game. People will either complain until the get their way or proc sets will be here to stay and make the game much more fun. I'm OK either way. But I would prefer it if smarts, appropriate builds and strategy should create better results than whoever smashes buttons the fastest or uses macros like it is now.
It's not an exploit avoiding someone's ultimate, with most other ultimates this can be done by simply dodging or blocking. As meteor leaves a ground dot jumping at the right time can avoid this damage. It is hard to pull off and skilled. If zos felt it was an exploit they could have fixed and if enough people felt cheated by it they would complain.
Pressing the right buttons at the right time is the key to success in every video game ever conceived. I'm not sure why you feel this game is any different. I play with a lot of great player and don't know any that use macros. This might be a thing in pve, but it wouldn't help you in PvP as you require different priority actions all the time. For instance you may execute into a roll dodge to avoid incoming damage whilst finishing a low health enemy.
It is also impossible to bypass GCD. Only proc sets allow additional burst within GCD, dots and auras such as blade cloak are also an exception. Their damage is obviously a tick though and not an instant 5k hit. So again macros won't help, it is literally light attacking before each skill, why would you need a macro to do that? Any other form of animation cancelling occurs naturally in response to what is happening as I described above.
When you have mastered how to efficiently use your attack rotations and defensive rotations. That's when strategy comes into play. My small group in cyrodill frequently takes on much larger groups by doing exactly this. Pulling them into a bottle neck flanking them at the back of the keep or simply prioritising targets.
I am tired. You are pretending to not understand something so simple. No one is saying that you program every possible combination into the keypad. You just program one key on each bar as your 'Attack rotation' and one as your 'defense rotation' you literally don't lose anything, just getting extra effects with less clicking. As you all keep saying do a light attack before every attack so programming each key to do a LA AND the skill is simple. GCD is a red herring, this is about hitting one key and getting several actions.
I've watch a lot of vids and every time I saw something that looked fishy the user is always using keypad/mouse but NEVER SHOW THEIR HANDS. I know a lot of obsessive people too and they'll do anything it takes to get ahead. But I actually don't care, just think it's weird all you think it is impossible that someone would do it. (see what I did there, I put words in your mouth that I know you didn't actually say)
BTW almost every game I have ever played require a lot of thinking and strategy and literally NO button mashing at all. I physically can't mash buttons super fast for long periods of time anyway. But even if I could I find that to be the worse aspect of this game and would be for anything that makes that less extreme.
I use a gamepad and play on pc so...
Besides what about players like isthereno1else, NES, kogs. All very skilled console players, are they playing with mouse and keyboard?
What I see, and I see this a lot on the forums and zone chat. Is someone new to the game or new to pvp and is getting killed frequently and probably near instantly. Instead of learning how to play better, they insist everyone is cheating and there is no way they can be this much better... I frequently get hate whispers accusing me of cheating and I hate it. I try to be respectful as I can when I PvP, but at the end of the day I am just playing the game optimally and as intended.
There is no button mashing when you know what you are doing. Combinations are fast, but never more than 3 buttons a second. If you were to lose this mind set and invest the time into getting better you too would too realise how skilled and strategic combat can be as you look back on your gameplay retrospectively. If this game isn't for you that is fine as well, but you shouldn't try to change it if isn't. If it is a physical limitation too, I totally understand and a game like wow is less physically demanding.
There are cheaters in this game, I have seen software you can buy to do it. It isn't macros, it is much worse. It is also pretty rare.Edited by relentless_turnip on September 26, 2020 9:47AM1 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭not to derail but the optimal macro is just to bind a light attack and skill together for each individual skill with a unique timer for each so you always get the timing right and its virtually untraceable. The only place a full macro is employed is pvp for burst patterns but this now has an ingame counter in the form of 3 proc sets and high health/heavy armor.
My faith in people is extremely low and the technology is widely available. That's good enough reason to fix it. it certainly adds to the lag but doesn't add to the gameplay imo and the game would be better off without it.
it is critical that the game be fair for everyone and why some people cant see this seems obvious to me.
I am still extremely dubious of people using macros. It is such a simple exercise, why would anyone bother?
I like weaving as it is tbh, I see no reason to change it and if someone wants go to the trouble to make a macro for it, who are they actually hurting?
Weaving does add to the game in that it raises the skill required to be better in a game that limits you to 10 skills. It also activates glyphs and poisons, if you aren't using weapon skills or at least increases the chance of doing so.
I don't think weaving makes it unfair for anyone, it does widen the skill gap. Anyone can do it though, so I don't understand how this makes things unfair. I would say unfair would be an inherent advantage obtainable to a minority of people. As we are all given the same limitations and inputs this is fair imo.
If you are talking about people with physical limitations, yes someone that doesn't have those issues has an advantage. Many games close the door on people with physical limitations ever being optimal, as does many other activities you would like to exceed at. This is unfortunate, but it would also be a shame if developers were limited in design by having to consider every possible ailment that could effect their customers enjoyment of the game.0 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭all im saying is that some are upset about procs but at the same time brush off the macros like they arent commonplace.
lets do a comparision of proc sets and light attacks: both are currently free.
proc: cant crit, cant proc enchants, cant cause conditions
LA: can crit, can proc enchants, can cause conditions
why?
when you have three proc sets on light and heavy attacks are your best weapons yet they are also free.
so if people want to keep their weaving thats fine but light attack should be treated like procs since they are free damage. For some people light attacks are procs because they bought a piece of technology and configured it that way.
so light attacks should not have the advantages of skills. No crit, no enchants, no conditions.
Edited by Rungar on September 26, 2020 10:49AMonly a few years left to go now....
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard0 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭all im saying is that some are upset about procs but at the same time brush off the macros like they arent commonplace.
lets do a comparision of proc sets and light attacks: both are currently free.
proc: cant crit, cant proc enchants, cant cause conditions
LA: can crit, can proc enchants, can cause conditions
why?
when you have three proc sets on light and heavy attacks are your best weapons yet they are also free.
so if people want to keep their weaving thats fine but light attack should be treated like procs since they are free damage. For some people light attacks are procs because they bought a piece of technology and configured it that way.
so light attacks should not have the advantages of skills. No crit, no enchants, no conditions.
Wtf is going on with all this derailing and whataboutism?
Light attacks are ubiquitous and available to all builds, proc or max stat alike. They are a general game mechanic and every player has access to them equally. The only thing you can directly compare them to are medium/heavy attacks, and to a lesser degree, total damage done. So by all means, if you feel light attacks are too strong, make your own thread and explain your thoughts, but they have almost nothing to do with 5 piece set balance...
If you wanna talk proc set balance you have to compare them to the next best alternative, for example damage procs vs purely offensive stat sets like spriggans. Last PTS I did some calcs, if you are interested you can see them here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6880639/#Comment_6880639.
P.S.: Light attacks can't cause status effects ('conditions' I suppose), while afaik proc sets can. Still has nothing to do with the OP's topic, though.PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭all im saying is that some are upset about procs but at the same time brush off the macros like they arent commonplace.
lets do a comparision of proc sets and light attacks: both are currently free.
proc: cant crit, cant proc enchants, cant cause conditions
LA: can crit, can proc enchants, can cause conditions
why?
when you have three proc sets on light and heavy attacks are your best weapons yet they are also free.
so if people want to keep their weaving thats fine but light attack should be treated like procs since they are free damage. For some people light attacks are procs because they bought a piece of technology and configured it that way.
so light attacks should not have the advantages of skills. No crit, no enchants, no conditions.
They aren't free, they require the press of a button and a expend a GCD.
Procs occur as an additional consequence of pressing a button. They aren't governed by GCD, apart from those set by each individual proc set. There is nothing stopping them all proccing at once.
For instance I cannot do three skills or light attacks a second, but all 3 of proc sets can activate from 1 light attack. Meaning I can actually hit my opponent 5 times in a second rather than the 2 governed by GCD. Your light attack can still crit, and activate your glyph too. Yes with a stat build said light attack will do more damage, but not as much as the equivalent of 3 high stat spammables hitting you at once.
Besides light attacks are next to no damage in PvP, it is mainly done to have a high uptime on your glyph or proc set or if you run a set like briarheart. You can easily beat most people without learning to weave.
Why would you primarily use light and heavies when wearing proc sets? I would certainly still use a normal offensive rotation and I'm not sure why you wouldn't.
0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭all im saying is that some are upset about procs but at the same time brush off the macros like they arent commonplace.
lets do a comparision of proc sets and light attacks: both are currently free.
proc: cant crit, cant proc enchants, cant cause conditions
LA: can crit, can proc enchants, can cause conditions
why?
when you have three proc sets on light and heavy attacks are your best weapons yet they are also free.
so if people want to keep their weaving thats fine but light attack should be treated like procs since they are free damage. For some people light attacks are procs because they bought a piece of technology and configured it that way.
so light attacks should not have the advantages of skills. No crit, no enchants, no conditions.
Wtf is going on with all this derailing and whataboutism?
Light attacks are ubiquitous and available to all builds, proc or max stat alike. They are a general game mechanic and every player has access to them equally. The only thing you can directly compare them to are medium/heavy attacks, and to a lesser degree, total damage done. So by all means, if you feel light attacks are too strong, make your own thread and explain your thoughts, but they have almost nothing to do with 5 piece set balance...
If you wanna talk proc set balance you have to compare them to the next best alternative, for example damage procs vs purely offensive stat sets like spriggans. Last PTS I did some calcs, if you are interested you can see them here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6880639/#Comment_6880639.
P.S.: Light attacks can't cause status effects ('conditions' I suppose), while afaik proc sets can. Still has nothing to do with the OP's topic, though.
@HankTwo Thanks for chiming in too👍 I literally cannot stand these "animation cancelling" is an exploit conspiricists... They happen in almost every thread regardless of the subject matter and present it in array of different ways.
I end up helping them derail the thread by not being able to ignore it 😂
In the interest of getting this thread back to its intention. What do you feel is the best way to control the stacking of proc sets without nerfing them individually?
IMO there are many adequate ways to control them without nerfing their individual power. From what I suggested in my OP, to their power being dictated by stats or someone else said they could use resources. I'm not sure this is the best idea, imagine trying to break free and your proc drains your Stam😂 though someone did suggest they could spend your ulti. Which is interesting.0 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭they expend their own gcd which is 700ms~1 second. Procs have their own gcd as well which ranges from 2-60 seconds as well depending on the effect.
so the only difference between these two free damage abilities is that light attacks take advantage of crits, conditions and enchants. Light attacks can also be used for burst potential. aka the wall of abilities
i see it all the time in pvp.
light attack
enchant
proc
skill
maybe proc
often another light attack
often another skill
sometimes ultimate
then i get to react if im still alive.
so you have a problem with the burst potential of procs and thats fair but you must also have the same problem for macrod precise timed abilities which accomplish the same thing.
take the light attack out of the equation and most of the time ill likely get to respond back. It removes a critable ability, a proc chance, an enchant and possibly a condition. You often see two of these somehow due to lag.
so you see that removing the light attack weave works in pvp as well as pve especially for those who choose to override. It makes the macros of none effect and it really doesnt change anything in the game. Your just used to it. It is not good gameplay in pvp or pve.
interestingly your complaining about the very same thing but with proc sets used instead. Many proc sets are based on light attacks so if light attack shared a gcd with skills your problem would already be partially solved.
Edited by Rungar on September 26, 2020 12:29PMonly a few years left to go now....
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭they expend their own gcd which is 700ms~1 second. Procs have their own gcd as well which ranges from 2-60 seconds as well depending on the effect.
so the only difference between these two free damage abilities is that light attacks take advantage of crits, conditions and enchants. Light attacks can also be used for burst potential. aka the wall of abilities
i see it all the time in pvp.
light attack
enchant
proc
skill
maybe proc
often another light attack
often another skill
sometimes ultimate
then i get to react if im still alive.
so you have a problem with the burst potential of procs and thats fair but you must also have the same problem for macrod precise timed abilities which accomplish the same thing.
take the light attack out of the equation and most of the time ill likely get to respond back. It removes a critable ability, a proc chance, an enchant and possibly a condition. You often see two of these somehow due to lag.
so you see that removing the light attack weave works in pvp as well as pve especially for those who choose to override. It makes the macros of none effect and it really doesnt change anything in the game. Your just used to it. It is not good gameplay in pvp or pve.
interestingly your complaining about the very same thing but with proc sets used instead. Many proc sets are based on light attacks so if light attack shared a gcd with skills your problem would already be partially solved.
I can't debate this with you anymore man, I can only say what you are saying is not right. You are entitled to believe whatever you like though and I don't want to continue to discuss a subject that in my opinion not subjective.
If you have some commentary on how to reduce the benefits of stacking proc sets I would love to hear it 👍0 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »all im saying is that some are upset about procs but at the same time brush off the macros like they arent commonplace.
lets do a comparision of proc sets and light attacks: both are currently free.
proc: cant crit, cant proc enchants, cant cause conditions
LA: can crit, can proc enchants, can cause conditions
why?
when you have three proc sets on light and heavy attacks are your best weapons yet they are also free.
so if people want to keep their weaving thats fine but light attack should be treated like procs since they are free damage. For some people light attacks are procs because they bought a piece of technology and configured it that way.
so light attacks should not have the advantages of skills. No crit, no enchants, no conditions.
Wtf is going on with all this derailing and whataboutism?
Light attacks are ubiquitous and available to all builds, proc or max stat alike. They are a general game mechanic and every player has access to them equally. The only thing you can directly compare them to are medium/heavy attacks, and to a lesser degree, total damage done. So by all means, if you feel light attacks are too strong, make your own thread and explain your thoughts, but they have almost nothing to do with 5 piece set balance...
If you wanna talk proc set balance you have to compare them to the next best alternative, for example damage procs vs purely offensive stat sets like spriggans. Last PTS I did some calcs, if you are interested you can see them here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6880639/#Comment_6880639.
P.S.: Light attacks can't cause status effects ('conditions' I suppose), while afaik proc sets can. Still has nothing to do with the OP's topic, though.
@HankTwo Thanks for chiming in too👍 I literally cannot stand these "animation cancelling" is an exploit conspiricists... They happen in almost every thread regardless of the subject matter and present it in array of different ways.
I end up helping them derail the thread by not being able to ignore it 😂
In the interest of getting this thread back to its intention. What do you feel is the best way to control the stacking of proc sets without nerfing them individually?
IMO there are many adequate ways to control them without nerfing their individual power. From what I suggested in my OP, to their power being dictated by stats or someone else said they could use resources. I'm not sure this is the best idea, imagine trying to break free and your proc drains your Stam😂 though someone did suggest they could spend your ulti. Which is interesting.
Imo, there are a number of problems with proc sets (~ 5 to 6), but they dont all apply to each proc set individually. I already got a pretty advanced draft of an overview I planned to post as my own thread, so not sure if I should just post it all here, since its content is a bit beyond the scope of this thread.
That being said, one problem I see with proc sets is that multiple proc effects can be applied within one GCD/second, often by just activating a single skill. For example: venomous smite + sheer venom with poison injection, unleashed terror + maelstrom 2h with stampede. This enables proc builds a very strong opener that doesnt require any form of buildup whatsoever. With the upcomming AOE burst proc sets next patch, this problem will most likely become much, much worse. A possible solution would be to create a cool down system that applies to all proc effects, independent of their own, set specific cooldowns. This new proc CD could be as short as 1 second, mimicking the GCD of skills, just to prevent the ability to easily apply multiple dot procs with one skill cast or stack multiple burst procs within the span of one second. To work really well, this solution would also require more restricitve proc conditions (unlike say, simply damage done), which imo is another problem with proc sets currently.
Though, one important question to ask is are procs op just because you can stack them or are some of them already op on their own, and this just becomes much more obvious the more procs you have on you? Also, are procs op in terms of peak, absolute power, or are they op in terms of power vs effort/ risk vs reward?Edited by HankTwo on September 26, 2020 1:01PMPC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »all im saying is that some are upset about procs but at the same time brush off the macros like they arent commonplace.
lets do a comparision of proc sets and light attacks: both are currently free.
proc: cant crit, cant proc enchants, cant cause conditions
LA: can crit, can proc enchants, can cause conditions
why?
when you have three proc sets on light and heavy attacks are your best weapons yet they are also free.
so if people want to keep their weaving thats fine but light attack should be treated like procs since they are free damage. For some people light attacks are procs because they bought a piece of technology and configured it that way.
so light attacks should not have the advantages of skills. No crit, no enchants, no conditions.
Wtf is going on with all this derailing and whataboutism?
Light attacks are ubiquitous and available to all builds, proc or max stat alike. They are a general game mechanic and every player has access to them equally. The only thing you can directly compare them to are medium/heavy attacks, and to a lesser degree, total damage done. So by all means, if you feel light attacks are too strong, make your own thread and explain your thoughts, but they have almost nothing to do with 5 piece set balance...
If you wanna talk proc set balance you have to compare them to the next best alternative, for example damage procs vs purely offensive stat sets like spriggans. Last PTS I did some calcs, if you are interested you can see them here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6880639/#Comment_6880639.
P.S.: Light attacks can't cause status effects ('conditions' I suppose), while afaik proc sets can. Still has nothing to do with the OP's topic, though.
@HankTwo Thanks for chiming in too👍 I literally cannot stand these "animation cancelling" is an exploit conspiricists... They happen in almost every thread regardless of the subject matter and present it in array of different ways.
I end up helping them derail the thread by not being able to ignore it 😂
In the interest of getting this thread back to its intention. What do you feel is the best way to control the stacking of proc sets without nerfing them individually?
IMO there are many adequate ways to control them without nerfing their individual power. From what I suggested in my OP, to their power being dictated by stats or someone else said they could use resources. I'm not sure this is the best idea, imagine trying to break free and your proc drains your Stam😂 though someone did suggest they could spend your ulti. Which is interesting.
Imo, there are a number of problems with proc sets (~ 5 to 6), but they dont all apply to each proc set individually. I already got a pretty advanced draft of an overview I planned to post as my own thread, so not sure if I should just post it all here, since its content is a bit beyond the scope of this thread.
That being said, one problem I see with proc sets is that multiple proc effects can be applied within one GCD/second, often by just activating a single skill. For example: venomous smite + sheer venom with poison injection, unleashed terror + maelstrom 2h with stampede. This enables proc builds a very strong opener that doesnt require any form of buildup whatsoever. With the upcomming AOE burst proc sets next patch, this problem will most likely become much, much worse. A possible solution would be to create a cool down system that applies to all proc effects, independent of their own, set specific cooldowns. This new proc CD could be as short as 1 second, mimicking the GCD of skills, just to prevent the ability to easily apply multiple dot procs with one skill cast or stack multiple burst procs within the span of one second.
Though, one important question to ask is are procs op just because you can stack them or are some of them already op on their own, and this just becomes much more obvious the more procs you have on you? Also, are procs op in terms of peak, absolute power, or are they op in terms of power vs effort/ risk vs reward?
It's an interesting point of view and certainly worthy of its own thread. Please @ me when it you post as I would love to read it in its entirety.
My opinion to a point you touched on is that most proc sets even the worst offenders do just augment the power of a build when used individually. When stacked together they do become overwhelming IMO, very much in the way you described in your examples.
I think a shared GCD would be a very adequate control for controlling their burst potential, but perhaps not the combined pressure they create. Which is why I lean slightly more towards a diminishing return system to deter players from stacking them. Perhaps even both would be fair with a shared GCD of 1 second and diminishing return from stacking(probably less than i proposed in OP). Then wearing a single proc set, say sheer venom would again only augment your burst potential. Wearing 2 proc sets would make each of them less effective whilst ensuring they can't proc in the same second.
In the instance where there is a shared GCD it also raises the question how are procs prioritised if they share a proc condition?0 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭if a light attack can proc and a skill can proc when putting light attack on the global timer with skills reduces the number of procs per second by 50% or more since you can have two light attacks register within the span of one gcd. One before and one after.
all they need to do then is clean up some of the weaker conditions like "when you do damage". For those skills that require a light attack to trigger theyve been slowed down, any skill that still has a chance on damage is slowed down since there are less chances. If they added when you do damage ...with a class skill... or some other secondary modifier for the most offending sets that would further reduce procs.
see nothing fancy required. All this games problems come back to the same thing pretty much every time. Its just a bad design no one seems to be able to come to terms with. Likely because its a great advantage.
Edited by Rungar on September 26, 2020 1:49PMonly a few years left to go now....
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard2 -
Sheuib✭✭✭✭How about just leaving it as is. No one is ever happy. Every three months it is threads about let's nerf what is killing me this patch. And, guess what. The same people are still killing you regardless of what build they use. Stat sets make tanks to powerful. Burst procs are one shoting people. I'm being killed by dots. Everyone is a perma-werewolf. And, the crying continues.
I have found that the only way they really change anything in PVP is if everyone does it. So put your proc set together and join in the fun. When they see that there is no longer build diversity they make a change. Then everyone goes through the cycle of new builds until the next dominate build comes out.
Honestly, I am thinking some of the changes to destro staff is going to bring out some nice magicka builds. I am looking forward to the patch.0 -
Recapitated✭✭✭✭all they need to do then is clean up some of the weaker conditions like "when you do damage".
Unleashed + Merciless + Venomous all look like they have reasonably narrow conditions on paper but with crit charge you can proc all three. I think with the number of proc sets out there, more of them should be redesigned to not do damage unless you take further action or people will find new ways to stack them.
Make Unleashed Terror increase your WD against targets that you charged/pulled for X seconds. Make Venomous Smite add a burst AOE to all your poison abilities on targets afflicted by it, or on poisoned targets or something. That sort of thing. That way even if you stack the procs on someone you can't consider your job done and hide.
That doesn't take care of high health builds but that's a separate problem.
Edited by Recapitated on September 26, 2020 2:10PM0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭How about just leaving it as is. No one is ever happy. Every three months it is threads about let's nerf what is killing me this patch. And, guess what. The same people are still killing you regardless of what build they use. Stat sets make tanks to powerful. Burst procs are one shoting people. I'm being killed by dots. Everyone is a perma-werewolf. And, the crying continues.
I have found that the only way they really change anything in PVP is if everyone does it. So put your proc set together and join in the fun. When they see that there is no longer build diversity they make a change. Then everyone goes through the cycle of new builds until the next dominate build comes out.
Honestly, I am thinking some of the changes to destro staff is going to bring out some nice magicka builds. I am looking forward to the patch.
I am excited for the next patch too!
I think most the changes are good changes. This is still an issue IMO.
I have no problem with proc sets. I take issue with people wearing 3 of them, putting all their attributes into health, wearing full protective jewelry, slotting mainly defensive skills and killing people who are fully invested as a DD with a light attack...
Making proc sets the most optimal option doesn't create build diversity, it also creates a meta. A tanky meta as well as people try to survive them. The strength of them individually is not an issue, when you can essentially fire the damage of 4 spammables in 1 sec this is a problem. My suggestion is merely a way of controlling this. Build diversity would actually be more affluent if they are used to augment the power of your build.
I am enjoying this patch in IC and cyrodill, but BG's just an example are a very unhealthy environment. With no one targeting anyone, but casting aoe's until one of their 3 proc sets kills something. It isn't fun and doesn't promote skill. It also doesnt help the skill gap as new players are dying more than ever.
0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Recapitated wrote: »all they need to do then is clean up some of the weaker conditions like "when you do damage".
Unleashed + Merciless + Venomous all look like they have reasonably narrow conditions on paper but with crit charge you can proc all three. I think with the number of proc sets out there, more of them should be redesigned to not do damage unless you take further action or people will find new ways to stack them.
Make Unleashed Terror increase your WD against targets that you charged/pulled for X seconds. Make Venomous Smite add a burst AOE to all your poison abilities on targets afflicted by it, or on poisoned targets or something. That sort of thing. That way even if you stack the procs on someone you can't consider your job done and hide.
That doesn't take care of high health builds but that's a separate problem.
I like this idea👍 I would definetly back this as change. It may combat high health builds, as under your suggestion you would be encouraged to use skills as proc sets are now just improving them.0 -
Recapitated✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »Recapitated wrote: »all they need to do then is clean up some of the weaker conditions like "when you do damage".
Unleashed + Merciless + Venomous all look like they have reasonably narrow conditions on paper but with crit charge you can proc all three. I think with the number of proc sets out there, more of them should be redesigned to not do damage unless you take further action or people will find new ways to stack them.
Make Unleashed Terror increase your WD against targets that you charged/pulled for X seconds. Make Venomous Smite add a burst AOE to all your poison abilities on targets afflicted by it, or on poisoned targets or something. That sort of thing. That way even if you stack the procs on someone you can't consider your job done and hide.
That doesn't take care of high health builds but that's a separate problem.
I like this idea👍 I would definetly back this as change. It may combat high health builds, as under your suggestion you would be encouraged to use skills as proc sets are now just improving them.
Some sets, like dragon's appetite, have a flat damage increase regardless of your sets even though they're not really proc sets. As I've described Venomous burst AOE would be flat damage so you don't have to build into it. Ideally, to make the set a threat on DPS and not on tank, the damage would scale off WD and Stam.0 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭ya but the real question is: would merciless charge have been a problem had they not let the potatoes get a hold of it last update. My guess is that no one would be complaining.
anyone can get it now and its a problem. Everything in this game is like this.. weird hey..
learn to play i guess.. that's what everyone keeps saying... unless their getting rocked and then its a serious issue.only a few years left to go now....
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard0 -
Recapitated✭✭✭✭ya but the real question is: would merciless charge have been a problem had they not let the potatoes get a hold of it last update. My guess is that no one would be complaining.
anyone can get it now and its a problem. Everything in this game is like this.. weird hey..
learn to play i guess.. that's what everyone keeps saying... unless their getting rocked and then its a serious issue.
Well they buffed it so that certainly didn't help. I have both the 2h and a full set of sheer venom that I collected while I farmed other things, I just don't use them because I think it's cheap. A number of the people complaining about the meta use procs themselves (Feng being the most recognizable one I think) so this probably has more to do with the mechanical issues we've covered to death and not some parochial bias0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Recapitated wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »Recapitated wrote: »all they need to do then is clean up some of the weaker conditions like "when you do damage".
Unleashed + Merciless + Venomous all look like they have reasonably narrow conditions on paper but with crit charge you can proc all three. I think with the number of proc sets out there, more of them should be redesigned to not do damage unless you take further action or people will find new ways to stack them.
Make Unleashed Terror increase your WD against targets that you charged/pulled for X seconds. Make Venomous Smite add a burst AOE to all your poison abilities on targets afflicted by it, or on poisoned targets or something. That sort of thing. That way even if you stack the procs on someone you can't consider your job done and hide.
That doesn't take care of high health builds but that's a separate problem.
I like this idea👍 I would definetly back this as change. It may combat high health builds, as under your suggestion you would be encouraged to use skills as proc sets are now just improving them.
Some sets, like dragon's appetite, have a flat damage increase regardless of your sets even though they're not really proc sets. As I've described Venomous burst AOE would be flat damage so you don't have to build into it. Ideally, to make the set a threat on DPS and not on tank, the damage would scale off WD and Stam.Recapitated wrote: »ya but the real question is: would merciless charge have been a problem had they not let the potatoes get a hold of it last update. My guess is that no one would be complaining.
anyone can get it now and its a problem. Everything in this game is like this.. weird hey..
learn to play i guess.. that's what everyone keeps saying... unless their getting rocked and then its a serious issue.
Well they buffed it so that certainly didn't help. I have both the 2h and a full set of sheer venom that I collected while I farmed other things, I just don't use them because I think it's cheap. A number of the people complaining about the meta use procs themselves (Feng being the most recognizable one I think) so this probably has more to do with the mechanical issues we've covered to death and not some parochial bias
I myself use sheer venom on one build, but as I said one proc set on its own isn't bad. An entire proc build where they can all trigger from one skill isn't ok IMO.
I believe @FENGRUSH agrees with this sentiment despite currently playing a full proc build in no cp. I think he would most likely applaud a change that moderates their stacking. I can only go off what I've heard him say though, which is mainly centred around the most popular proc sets and the simplicity in proccing them.0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭if a light attack can proc and a skill can proc when putting light attack on the global timer with skills reduces the number of procs per second by 50% or more since you can have two light attacks register within the span of one gcd. One before and one after.
all they need to do then is clean up some of the weaker conditions like "when you do damage". For those skills that require a light attack to trigger theyve been slowed down, any skill that still has a chance on damage is slowed down since there are less chances. If they added when you do damage ...with a class skill... or some other secondary modifier for the most offending sets that would further reduce procs.
see nothing fancy required. All this games problems come back to the same thing pretty much every time. Its just a bad design no one seems to be able to come to terms with. Likely because its a great advantage.
@rungar has some excellent points (everything people are complaining about with proc sets is already much worse with LA bug). I am not looking at this as affecting the way I play, I can do whatever I want (and all content) and don't really care about what others do really. But LAG affects everyone. And having some programming background I can say this LA bug could very well be causing some issues. For instance, you don't have to be a programmer to know that each time you interrupt a program's activity, it MUST be able to HANDLE the issue. If the programmers didn't take into account the animations getting cancelled which obviously they didn't, each time someone does that there is probably an unresolved process floating around, which can accumulate until your program starts to act weird, like LAG.
BTW it would be so easy to fix just make the animation EXACTLY the same time as your LA is supposed to be, if it should take .2 seconds then the animation should be .2 seconds. And no matter how fast some can push the buttons or use macro or script is is always .2 seconds, PROBLEM SOLVED. I look at the bow light attack and it is so fast you can hardly tell when it is animation cancelled, and it feels much easier and looks nicer. It wouldn't slow the game down at all but would make combat look much better.0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭if a light attack can proc and a skill can proc when putting light attack on the global timer with skills reduces the number of procs per second by 50% or more since you can have two light attacks register within the span of one gcd. One before and one after.
all they need to do then is clean up some of the weaker conditions like "when you do damage". For those skills that require a light attack to trigger theyve been slowed down, any skill that still has a chance on damage is slowed down since there are less chances. If they added when you do damage ...with a class skill... or some other secondary modifier for the most offending sets that would further reduce procs.
see nothing fancy required. All this games problems come back to the same thing pretty much every time. Its just a bad design no one seems to be able to come to terms with. Likely because its a great advantage.
@rungar has some excellent points (everything people are complaining about with proc sets is already much worse with LA bug). I am not looking at this as affecting the way I play, I can do whatever I want (and all content) and don't really care about what others do really. But LAG affects everyone. And having some programming background I can say this LA bug could very well be causing some issues. For instance, you don't have to be a programmer to know that each time you interrupt a program's activity, it MUST be able to HANDLE the issue. If the programmers didn't take into account the animations getting cancelled which obviously they didn't, each time someone does that there is probably an unresolved process floating around, which can accumulate until your program starts to act weird, like LAG.
BTW it would be so easy to fix just make the animation EXACTLY the same time as your LA is supposed to be, if it should take .2 seconds then the animation should be .2 seconds. And no matter how fast some can push the buttons or use macro or script is is always .2 seconds, PROBLEM SOLVED. I look at the bow light attack and it is so fast you can hardly tell when it is animation cancelled, and it feels much easier and looks nicer. It wouldn't slow the game down at all but would make combat look much better.
Please stick to the purpose of thread. There are plenty of threads where this comment would be relevant, this isn't on of them.
I would love to hear your thoughts on the points I raised in the OP though 👍0 -
MincVinyl✭✭✭✭✭not to derail but the optimal macro is just to bind a light attack and skill together for each individual skill with a unique timer for each so you always get the timing right and its virtually untraceable. The only place a full macro is employed is pvp for burst patterns but this now has an ingame counter in the form of 3 proc sets and high health/heavy armor.
My faith in people is extremely low and the technology is widely available. That's good enough reason to fix it. it certainly adds to the lag but doesn't add to the gameplay imo and the game would be better off without it.
it is critical that the game be fair for everyone and why some people cant see this seems obvious to me.
You know the game has input buffers right? so just simply clicking light>ability will buffer the ability input and do it as close as possible without any need for a macro. The buffers only fail from time to time during primetime cyrodil which is the "Input lag" people see where the buffers stop working because the server wants less calculations flowing through and prioritizes other actions first.
If you ever play an old fighting game compared to new ones you can experience the difference of nonbuffered vs buffered. For instance Super Smash Melee was an unbuffered game that you could/had to input frame perfect in 1/60th of a second for pro level of gameplay. A newer version like in Ultimate has an input buffer so you can essentially que up abilities in a row and they will still happen. Actually there is a wiki page about it if you care to read more. https://www.ssbwiki.com/Buffer
This system heavily protects low tier players from being absolutely rolled by higher tier players and prevents people from using macros because they are pointless.
edit: This does pertain to the thread due to the argument of "proc sets are fine since they are there to counter rampant macro users". In other words "I am fine that proc sets are ruining the game to not actually counter people who potentially cheating in a pointless way that gains them nothing"Edited by MincVinyl on September 26, 2020 4:48PM0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »if a light attack can proc and a skill can proc when putting light attack on the global timer with skills reduces the number of procs per second by 50% or more since you can have two light attacks register within the span of one gcd. One before and one after.
all they need to do then is clean up some of the weaker conditions like "when you do damage". For those skills that require a light attack to trigger theyve been slowed down, any skill that still has a chance on damage is slowed down since there are less chances. If they added when you do damage ...with a class skill... or some other secondary modifier for the most offending sets that would further reduce procs.
see nothing fancy required. All this games problems come back to the same thing pretty much every time. Its just a bad design no one seems to be able to come to terms with. Likely because its a great advantage.
@rungar has some excellent points (everything people are complaining about with proc sets is already much worse with LA bug). I am not looking at this as affecting the way I play, I can do whatever I want (and all content) and don't really care about what others do really. But LAG affects everyone. And having some programming background I can say this LA bug could very well be causing some issues. For instance, you don't have to be a programmer to know that each time you interrupt a program's activity, it MUST be able to HANDLE the issue. If the programmers didn't take into account the animations getting cancelled which obviously they didn't, each time someone does that there is probably an unresolved process floating around, which can accumulate until your program starts to act weird, like LAG.
BTW it would be so easy to fix just make the animation EXACTLY the same time as your LA is supposed to be, if it should take .2 seconds then the animation should be .2 seconds. And no matter how fast some can push the buttons or use macro or script is is always .2 seconds, PROBLEM SOLVED. I look at the bow light attack and it is so fast you can hardly tell when it is animation cancelled, and it feels much easier and looks nicer. It wouldn't slow the game down at all but would make combat look much better.
Please stick to the purpose of thread. There are plenty of threads where this comment would be relevant, this isn't on of them.
I would love to hear your thoughts on the points I raised in the OP though 👍
I think the devs have done so much to appease PVPers, like changing a bunch of sets like Red Mountain, Sunderflame to have DOTs instead of big damage. Now a bunch of PVPers don't like having bunch of DOTs on them. I think many PVPers just want to use Stat/damage stacking gear and mash buttons and beat up unsuspecting PVPers.
They should do a test to have 2 separate queues for IC/BG where one allows proc sets and one doesn't allow them. Rather than adding more complex rules or nerfing stuff into oblivion. Hey maybe they could add minor slayer to some of the proc sets since no one is using trial gear in PVP that I am aware of, that way the sets will be better in PVE and people probably wont use them in PVP.0