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Diminishing Returns for Proc sets
relentless_turnip
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This is based off of my experience in PVP and cannot speak for the impact proc sets have had on PVE
I would firstly like to say I actually am enjoying the build diversity this patch, though I see hunter's venom, calaurions and sheer venom in my death recap far too much
I like proc sets, I think they have their place in closing the skill gap and make diverse builds more viable in some cases.
That said it seems more optimal to wear proc sets and not have to build stats to increase the tooltips of your skills. Meaning you can build very defensively outside of your gear.
What I would like to propose is an idea that has been thrown around before and there have been many good idea's to tackle this issue in PVP.
Diminishing returns on proc sets may incentivise people to only augment their builds with proc sets rather than having a full proc build.
Here is an example to show you what I mean:
So sheer venom currently looks like this:
Sheer Venom
LEVEL 50 CHAMPION 160
(2 items) Adds 1096 Max Stamina
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) When you deal damage with an Execute ability you infect the enemy, dealing 8766 Poison Damage over 6 seconds and dealing up to 100% more damage to enemies under 100% Health. This effect can occur every 6 seconds per target.
and venomous smite looks like this:
Venomous Smite
LEVEL 50 - CP 160
Type Overland
Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(3 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) Dealing Critical Damage inflicts Hunter's Venom on your enemy for 10 seconds, dealing 2241 Poison Damage to your target and enemies within 6 meters of them every 1 second. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds
I think with one of these slotted the tooltip should stay the same, but slot both and we lose a significant percentage of their damage for this example I proposing -33%
Making the sets now look like this when both are equipped:
Sheer Venom
LEVEL 50 CHAMPION 160
(2 items) Adds 1096 Max Stamina
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) When you deal damage with an Execute ability you infect the enemy, dealing 5786 Poison Damage over 6 seconds and dealing up to 100% more damage to enemies under 100% Health. This effect can occur every 6 seconds per target.
Venomous Smite
LEVEL 50 - CP 160
Type Overland
Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(3 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) Dealing Critical Damage inflicts Hunter's Venom on your enemy for 10 seconds, dealing 1479 Poison Damage to your target and enemies within 6 meters of them every 1 second. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds
I think this is a pretty fair way to balance them without nerfing any sets so they can't be used. What does everyone think? I will remind you I cannot speak for their impact on PVE.
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Recapitated✭✭✭✭Sheer Venom could be redesigned to make your execute abilities have an additional execute mechanic below 50% health and no DOT. That way you have to capitalize on it and it use GCDs to get the damage.3 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭the most simple way is to follow the games own core philosophy: resources determine everything.
this give procs a cost so they are not free. My preferred cost would be ultimate so the more proc sets you stack the bigger drain on your ultimate pool but different proc sets could use different resources. or multiple resources. Enchants should use the same system.
the cost of each proc could then be standardized based on whether its defensive, offensive, single target, aoe or how many different effects it uses.
thus a proc like hunters venom would be expensive since it is an aoe dot and likewise the sheer venom would cost due to it being a dot and an execute. Lesser procs like stat buffs or defensive procs might cost considerably less and thus there is gameplay in balancing the costs vs the effect.
only a few years left to go now....
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard3 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭That wouldn't be "performant".
Surely less procs would be less demanding? And under this model their damage wouldn't be determined on cast, but the base stat adjusted depending how many proc sets you wear. Putting us in the same position we are in now when you equip gear. I could be wrong about that, but I can't see it adding to server strain.0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭the most simple way is to follow the games own core philosophy: resources determine everything.
this give procs a cost so they are not free. My preferred cost would be ultimate so the more proc sets you stack the bigger drain on your ultimate pool but different proc sets could use different resources. or multiple resources. Enchants should use the same system.
the cost of each proc could then be standardized based on whether its defensive, offensive, single target, aoe or how many different effects it uses.
thus a proc like hunters venom would be expensive since it is an aoe dot and likewise the sheer venom would cost due to it being a dot and an execute. Lesser procs like stat buffs or defensive procs might cost considerably less and thus there is gameplay in balancing the costs vs the effect.
I like the idea of procs costing resources and even costing ulti is a real deterrent.
I don't think enchants should cost anything, I've never seen them effect the balance of the game and if it isn't broke... I am limited to 2 years experience, but I have never heard people saying enchants are OP.
I have heard people saying procs could scale with your stats which is also a good idea. As in to do the damage they do now you'd need to stack as much offensive stats as possible. This stops tanks from running them.0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Id like more if they just reduce all procc dmg by a good chunk and increase the efficiency that max stats scale to dmg and healing. But something must be done imo...proccmeta is dead boring.
PC EU
PvP only0 -
Atherakhia✭✭✭✭This isn't needed. If they need them to proc less just adjust the proc chance?
Just remove malacath from working with proc sets and you'd solve a large amount of the problem. If more needs to be done for PvP after that, they can think about adjusting damage further via the PvP buffs/debuffs.0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Id like more if they just reduce all procc dmg by a good chunk and increase the efficiency that max stats scale to dmg and healing. But something must be done imo...proccmeta is dead boring.
I am in agreement largely, but I don't mind people wearing a single proc set that does a good chunk of damage. When you can wear 3 -4 of them it becomes silly. No one will ever learn to play if the requirement to press buttons is taken away IMO.0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Atherakhia wrote: »This isn't needed. If they need them to proc less just adjust the proc chance?
Just remove malacath from working with proc sets and you'd solve a large amount of the problem. If more needs to be done for PvP after that, they can think about adjusting damage further via the PvP buffs/debuffs.
Well the proc chance was taken away to make them performant, which I think was good thing to do. Perhaps different proc conditions should be introduced that don't require chance calculation. like bashing, blocking, flanking all stuff that already exists on other proc sets. My biggest issue is the stacking of proc sets.
I do agree with stopping malacath working with them as this allows heavy armor users to get a lot out of them whilst being built like a tank. 2 of the worst offenders require a crit to activate though, I still think players should be deterred from stacking them.0 -
Atherakhia✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »Atherakhia wrote: »This isn't needed. If they need them to proc less just adjust the proc chance?
Just remove malacath from working with proc sets and you'd solve a large amount of the problem. If more needs to be done for PvP after that, they can think about adjusting damage further via the PvP buffs/debuffs.
Well the proc chance was taken away to make them performant, which I think was good thing to do. Perhaps different proc conditions should be introduced that don't require chance calculation. like bashing, blocking, flanking all stuff that already exists on other proc sets. My biggest issue is the stacking of proc sets.
I do agree with stopping malacath working with them as this allows heavy armor users to get a lot out of them whilst being built like a tank. 2 of the worst offenders require a crit to activate though, I still think players should be deterred from stacking them.
For sets that don't have a proc chance you'd just adjust the proc cooldown or adopt another metric like 'proc per minute' type of thing. At least with a proc per minute approach, you could have different values for PvE and PvP. I'm pretty sure WoW uses PPM? It's been quite some time since I played WoW though.
I'm also not sure Venomous Smite is really the ultimate problem, which I assume is one of the crit sets you're mentioning. The problem is really applying Sheer Venom + Venomous Smite + Injection + Weapon Poisons all from 30+ yards with a single skill from stealth.
It's also worth mentioning that this is largely a Stamina problem as the proc sets available to Mag are pretty low. The only real offender from Mag is Overwhelming, and that's only a problem when paired with both Grothdarr and Malacath. Caluurion is really only used by 1 class right now, and that class is so poorly designed it basically needs Cal to function. Winterborn is bugged which limits how its used so most aren't using it outside of Wardens. Icy is rarely used from my experience. That's about it for mag unfortunately.
This is literally Elder Stamina Online
Edited by Atherakhia on September 25, 2020 3:10PM0 -
Recapitated✭✭✭✭the most simple way is to follow the games own core philosophy: resources determine everything.
this give procs a cost so they are not free. My preferred cost would be ultimate so the more proc sets you stack the bigger drain on your ultimate pool but different proc sets could use different resources. or multiple resources. Enchants should use the same system.
the cost of each proc could then be standardized based on whether its defensive, offensive, single target, aoe or how many different effects it uses.
thus a proc like hunters venom would be expensive since it is an aoe dot and likewise the sheer venom would cost due to it being a dot and an execute. Lesser procs like stat buffs or defensive procs might cost considerably less and thus there is gameplay in balancing the costs vs the effect.
That's interesting. I think this could be a solution, except you shouldn't be able to unload several abilities' worth of damage at once in one GCD even if you pay for all of those abilities.0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Recapitated wrote: »the most simple way is to follow the games own core philosophy: resources determine everything.
this give procs a cost so they are not free. My preferred cost would be ultimate so the more proc sets you stack the bigger drain on your ultimate pool but different proc sets could use different resources. or multiple resources. Enchants should use the same system.
the cost of each proc could then be standardized based on whether its defensive, offensive, single target, aoe or how many different effects it uses.
thus a proc like hunters venom would be expensive since it is an aoe dot and likewise the sheer venom would cost due to it being a dot and an execute. Lesser procs like stat buffs or defensive procs might cost considerably less and thus there is gameplay in balancing the costs vs the effect.
That's interesting. I think this could be a solution, except you shouldn't be able to unload several abilities' worth of damage at once in one GCD even if you pay for all of those abilities.
Proc sets are the only thing that is actually able to break the GCD. Obviously them landing at the same time as other damage is coincidental, but if you are wearing 3 of them the probability is tripled!0 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭Simple way to balance proc sets is to have them scale with highest offensive stats.0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Id like to just point out; that one, at most two, of the proc sets mentioned in the forums are magicka based procs.
Its really the stam ones that people really talk about0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭universal_wrath wrote: »Simple way to balance proc sets is to have them scale with highest offensive stats.
This would also be a good change 👍1 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Old idea of global cooldown on damage dealing procsets still here. Like, you know, global cooldown on AoEs...0 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭i dont think it would be a bad thing to add a bit more scaling but it would be preferable if they balanced it instead off a standardized number rather than your max ability. This way both the low and high side are reigned in somewhat. That being said i still think they should cost something. No free damage.
only a few years left to go now....
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭i dont think it would be a bad thing to add a bit more scaling but it would be preferable if they balanced it instead off a standardized number rather than your max ability. This way both the low and high side are reigned in somewhat. That being said i still think they should cost something. No free damage.
Hang on a second, in order to wear a proc set you ARE GIVING UP SOMETHING, like 5 piece bonus for damage or stats or something. And wearing 2 proc sets you give up 2 bonuses to get a proc that has a cooldown. By the logic in this thread if someone wears 2 or more sets that specifically boost mag/stam or boost damage that would be OP and they should cost more like more ULT.
BTW how is Stacking Mag/stam or weapon/spell damage NOT FREE DAMAGE it literally increases all your skills damage output, and most sets give flat bonus, no proc condition or cooldown. This whole proc set discussion has nothing to do with balance, or something being OP. It is 100% a case of a lot of people got used to stat/damage stacking style of play and ingenious people started using/combining old/new set combinations that are more powerful in some situations. Stat/damage stacking is so boring in PVE and PVP, I'm glad there are more options.1 -
MincVinyl✭✭✭✭✭Here is the general issue:
Stat builds tend to almost always go Passively Tanky and damage relies on player skill using active mechanics.
Proc builds can achieve both passive tankiness and damage since trying to build for efficient stats is thrown out the window since stats account for little to nothing other than getting more passive tankiness.Earlier in the games history even passive tankiness was not the meta thing to do, shield sorcs were the last real form of active tankiness active damage left but they have pretty much been removed
If you still cant see the difference another way to look at it is building a proc build allows you to solely make decisions during combat that are towards tanking and surviving. Where a normal stat build must come off of defense to go on the offensive. Here is where the "Free" damage argument stems from. If you run a proc build it is like never having to come up for air in a diving competition.
If you have ever dueled you can experience how this pressure works between two builds. Proc sets break how combat pressure works giving that "free" damage pressure without the user having to actively go on the offensive.- Having them proc off of harder conditions than a light attack every XX seconds would help, Ie: On a 20m gap close root enemies at final location. After your armor buff runs out do X damage/heal.........Literally zos just needs to spend 5 mins brainstorming for anything better than every proc set being based off light/heavy attacking.
- Making them scale off of stats would soft cap proc users into having to run a proc set with a stat set atleast. Preventing future balancing issues if/when zos releases the next round of proc sets. Ie: Making the proc condition depend on a stat like crit, while the damage scales off of a condition like max+damage
- A global cooldown on proc sets I suppose would also achieve a similar goal, but I think it is the wrong way to go
- Making procs not use any stats instead of some stats. Ie: why does it use damage done and pen but not damage+max and crit. Why does malacath affect a proc but any wd set doesn't?
Edited by MincVinyl on September 25, 2020 7:36PM1 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭i dont think it would be a bad thing to add a bit more scaling but it would be preferable if they balanced it instead off a standardized number rather than your max ability. This way both the low and high side are reigned in somewhat. That being said i still think they should cost something. No free damage.
Hang on a second, in order to wear a proc set you ARE GIVING UP SOMETHING, like 5 piece bonus for damage or stats or something. And wearing 2 proc sets you give up 2 bonuses to get a proc that has a cooldown. By the logic in this thread if someone wears 2 or more sets that specifically boost mag/stam or boost damage that would be OP and they should cost more like more ULT.
BTW how is Stacking Mag/stam or weapon/spell damage NOT FREE DAMAGE it literally increases all your skills damage output, and most sets give flat bonus, no proc condition or cooldown. This whole proc set discussion has nothing to do with balance, or something being OP. It is 100% a case of a lot of people got used to stat/damage stacking style of play and ingenious people started using/combining old/new set combinations that are more powerful in some situations. Stat/damage stacking is so boring in PVE and PVP, I'm glad there are more options.
Reason why most people wearproc sets now is because the damage they provide outwieght that of flat stats. If you are a mag sorc for instant and wear calurion legacy, you can spam LA and potential proc calurion on cooldown and it deal about the same damage as instant proc crystal fragment. Lots of people now give up weapon/spell damage and max stamina/magicka and just build health with 3 proc sets. Unkillable in 1v1 and they easily kill most people even if they dizzy deals 2k damage, most of their damage comes from proc sets. Brain dead game play.
I was watch a streamer few days ago, dude stay in mist form(damage morph) and he kills people using proc sets that activate on dqmage done or damage taken. He only uses 1 skill and kill people who do their entire combos on him.0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭i dont think it would be a bad thing to add a bit more scaling but it would be preferable if they balanced it instead off a standardized number rather than your max ability. This way both the low and high side are reigned in somewhat. That being said i still think they should cost something. No free damage.
Hang on a second, in order to wear a proc set you ARE GIVING UP SOMETHING, like 5 piece bonus for damage or stats or something. And wearing 2 proc sets you give up 2 bonuses to get a proc that has a cooldown. By the logic in this thread if someone wears 2 or more sets that specifically boost mag/stam or boost damage that would be OP and they should cost more like more ULT.
BTW how is Stacking Mag/stam or weapon/spell damage NOT FREE DAMAGE it literally increases all your skills damage output, and most sets give flat bonus, no proc condition or cooldown. This whole proc set discussion has nothing to do with balance, or something being OP. It is 100% a case of a lot of people got used to stat/damage stacking style of play and ingenious people started using/combining old/new set combinations that are more powerful in some situations. Stat/damage stacking is so boring in PVE and PVP, I'm glad there are more options.
I can't even give this a sensible answer... I can imagine you also think animation cancelling is an exploit?0 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
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Ye many people giving up on stats simply coz no alternative after all nerfs.universal_wrath wrote: »i dont think it would be a bad thing to add a bit more scaling but it would be preferable if they balanced it instead off a standardized number rather than your max ability. This way both the low and high side are reigned in somewhat. That being said i still think they should cost something. No free damage.
Hang on a second, in order to wear a proc set you ARE GIVING UP SOMETHING, like 5 piece bonus for damage or stats or something. And wearing 2 proc sets you give up 2 bonuses to get a proc that has a cooldown. By the logic in this thread if someone wears 2 or more sets that specifically boost mag/stam or boost damage that would be OP and they should cost more like more ULT.
BTW how is Stacking Mag/stam or weapon/spell damage NOT FREE DAMAGE it literally increases all your skills damage output, and most sets give flat bonus, no proc condition or cooldown. This whole proc set discussion has nothing to do with balance, or something being OP. It is 100% a case of a lot of people got used to stat/damage stacking style of play and ingenious people started using/combining old/new set combinations that are more powerful in some situations. Stat/damage stacking is so boring in PVE and PVP, I'm glad there are more options.
Reason why most people wearproc sets now is because the damage they provide outwieght that of flat stats. If you are a mag sorc for instant and wear calurion legacy, you can spam LA and potential proc calurion on cooldown and it deal about the same damage as instant proc crystal fragment. Lots of people now give up weapon/spell damage and max stamina/magicka and just build health with 3 proc sets.
For example Templar class - overtime zos nerfhammered damage ouput of absolutely every damage-oriented skill, and it byitself made proc damage already higher than class skills; in addition healing nerfs that also made stats boost of healing worse. So, no point of using stat build that boost skills which still wont do as much damage as procset which also active when you in defensive mode and have unique bonuses; plus no longer big heals.
For example Solar Barrage vs Overwhelming Surge: both 8m aoe dot but with nerhammering dots meta barrage got nerfed into dealing like twice less damage than surge. So no point to add stat build and add damage boost to skill when total damage of Barrage+stat set will be still much lower than Barrage+Surge+minor vulnerability, in addition you still have all the utility of barrage but also add utility of procset, in this case manadrain and minor vulnerability. It like why trying to boost 1 skill when you can have 2nd skill to proc for free.
Logical result of nerfing skills again and again, edpecially after dots nerfs.1 -
Recapitated✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »i dont think it would be a bad thing to add a bit more scaling but it would be preferable if they balanced it instead off a standardized number rather than your max ability. This way both the low and high side are reigned in somewhat. That being said i still think they should cost something. No free damage.
Hang on a second, in order to wear a proc set you ARE GIVING UP SOMETHING, like 5 piece bonus for damage or stats or something. And wearing 2 proc sets you give up 2 bonuses to get a proc that has a cooldown. By the logic in this thread if someone wears 2 or more sets that specifically boost mag/stam or boost damage that would be OP and they should cost more like more ULT.
BTW how is Stacking Mag/stam or weapon/spell damage NOT FREE DAMAGE it literally increases all your skills damage output, and most sets give flat bonus, no proc condition or cooldown. This whole proc set discussion has nothing to do with balance, or something being OP. It is 100% a case of a lot of people got used to stat/damage stacking style of play and ingenious people started using/combining old/new set combinations that are more powerful in some situations. Stat/damage stacking is so boring in PVE and PVP, I'm glad there are more options.
I can't even give this a sensible answer... I can imagine you also think animation cancelling is an exploit?
Let the record show this is the person who also said jumping while blocking is an exploit.
@Merforum if you stack max stats ALL your skills become SOMEWHAT more powerful compared to not having your 5-piece bonuses and you have to pay resources to use them, that's why it's not free.
Except for very specific high-risk/high-reward builds that require a lot of setup before bursting (mostly bombers and bankers) nobody can kill by engaging for one second and then cloaking, because stat bonuses don't overload individual actions.
With certain proc sets, instead of distributing your damage across ALL your skills, you can overload a single skill so that it could do enough damage to kill someone by itself without requiring SUSTAINED engagement. That's why people keep mentioning PI, sheer venom and venomous/syvarra or Stampede, Unleashed and Merciless.
For perspective, my stamdk in noCP stacking weapon damage with stat sets (7th legion, NMA & brutality buffs — not the absolute best but not far) gets a 16k/14 seconds tooltip with Venomous Claw. Sheer Venom double-proced by Poison Injection does 20k over 12 seconds with an execute multiplier + poison Injection itself + whatever other proc set you're running. And you can do that with zero investment in damage other than your 5pc bonuses.
The cost of doing that damage is also paltry compared to the cost of outhealing it or cleansing unless your spec/class is specifically designed to do that and nothing else, let alone the cost of dealing equal damage using max stats both in terms of GCDs of risk exposure (line of sight, range, uncloaking, etc) and resources.
That part is especially true given that you can put all your other eggs into the sustain and survivability basket without affecting your damage at all — food, potions, glyphs, attributes and so on. So even though you lose max stats on your sets you're able to get combinations of survivability, sustain, and damage that are not otherwise available — for good reasons.Edited by Recapitated on September 26, 2020 12:28AM0 -
Banana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Maybe Microsoft will give them a different spreadsheet that they can throw darts at1 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭I'd bet money that the vast majority of the player base LOVES proc sets.
I sure love proc sets in PvE, they are fun. My magsorc,s stamsorc, stamDk, magcro are all using 3 proc sets in PvE. In PvP? Not so much, few sets that I like like dolymish because it require thinking to use. Some other proc sets are farce, like plague slinger, it activate almost on cooldown for damage taken. I never used proc sets in PvP myself.0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭Recapitated wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »i dont think it would be a bad thing to add a bit more scaling but it would be preferable if they balanced it instead off a standardized number rather than your max ability. This way both the low and high side are reigned in somewhat. That being said i still think they should cost something. No free damage.
Hang on a second, in order to wear a proc set you ARE GIVING UP SOMETHING, like 5 piece bonus for damage or stats or something. And wearing 2 proc sets you give up 2 bonuses to get a proc that has a cooldown. By the logic in this thread if someone wears 2 or more sets that specifically boost mag/stam or boost damage that would be OP and they should cost more like more ULT.
BTW how is Stacking Mag/stam or weapon/spell damage NOT FREE DAMAGE it literally increases all your skills damage output, and most sets give flat bonus, no proc condition or cooldown. This whole proc set discussion has nothing to do with balance, or something being OP. It is 100% a case of a lot of people got used to stat/damage stacking style of play and ingenious people started using/combining old/new set combinations that are more powerful in some situations. Stat/damage stacking is so boring in PVE and PVP, I'm glad there are more options.
I can't even give this a sensible answer... I can imagine you also think animation cancelling is an exploit?
Let the record show this is the person who also said jumping while blocking is an exploit.
@Merforum if you stack max stats ALL your skills become SOMEWHAT more powerful compared to not having your 5-piece bonuses and you have to pay resources to use them, that's why it's not free.
Except for very specific high-risk/high-reward builds that require a lot of setup before bursting (mostly bombers and bankers) nobody can kill by engaging for one second and then cloaking, because stat bonuses don't overload individual actions.
With certain proc sets, instead of distributing your damage across ALL your skills, you can overload a single skill so that it could do enough damage to kill someone by itself without requiring SUSTAINED engagement. That's why people keep mentioning PI, sheer venom and venomous/syvarra or Stampede, Unleashed and Merciless.
The cost of doing that damage is also paltry compared to the cost of outhealing it or cleansing unless your spec/class is specifically designed to do that and nothing else, let alone the cost of dealing equal damage using max stats both in terms of GCDs of risk exposure (line of sight, range, uncloaking, etc) and resources.
That part is especially true given that you can put all your other eggs into the sustain and survivability basket without affecting your damage at all — food, potions, glyphs, attributes and so on. So even though you lose max stats on your sets you're able to get combinations of survivability, sustain, and damage that are not otherwise available — for good reasons.
Don't misrepresent what I said, that there are people in vids and 1 guy showing how to do it, where if you target them with meteor or other Ultimate and if they jump while block at the exact right moment they take ZERO damage. I'm sure he had to practice to get it perfect so most of you might call it expert skill. They can fix that or not, doesn't matter to me but these cheesy exploits don't make the game funner.
I perfectly understand the issue about Proc sets vs stat sets and many other aspects of the game. People will either complain until the get their way or proc sets will be here to stay and make the game much more fun. I'm OK either way. But I would prefer it if smarts, appropriate builds and strategy should create better results than whoever smashes buttons the fastest or uses macros like it is now.0
