Add targeting requirement to Sorcerer Streak.

Joy_Division · September 2020

Somewhere wrote: »

I mean the fact that it's also am unblockable, undosgable, aoe, gap closing stun does sound pretty overloaded if you ask me.

Should it require a target? No, that would kill the skill. That said, I would argue that there is little reason this stun should be unblockable when it already offers so much. The fact that streak and rune prison exist on the same class is hilarious since streak very nearly negates the need for any other stun.

ZOS is always going on about needing to make choices in your builds but then let overloaded skills like this exist in tandem with the rest of the garbage.

If you thought about this from any other perspective than nerfing, you'd realize what you wrote is shortsighted.

The one spec that has spent the longest time as top tier in PvP is the max ranged shield stacking sorcerer. Aside from the potency of the class, no other spec can use all of its best skills at 100% effectiveness at max range (although now stacking 4 proc sets by bow spammers is almost as abusive). The removal of crystal frag stun put a little hit into this spec, but with Rune Cage being a max range unblockable stun, all that was required was adding an extra slot to keep the essence of this spec.

What players who are actually seeking interesting gameplay as opposed to a nerf-fest suggested was that by incentivizing a sorcerer to use streak as an offensive skill, i.e. making it good enough that a sorc would not want to play that already strong max ranged spec, that would at least put the sorcerer in danger of close ranged opponents and make for a more interesting fight. And those players were 1000% correct. A lot of sorcs want to take that gamble for the extra bar slot and I'm perfectly fine with a strong spec that plays aggressively and thus gives me the chance to kill them rather than sit back at max range hammering me with all of their powerful skills all the while having zero incentive to ever come within 40 meters of me because you think it's a good idea to nerf something that's worked fine for years. That's the whole point of Streak being better than Rune Cage, so they'll actually use it.

It's rather ironic that you tell ZOS that they need to have its players to make choices in their build when your nerf will remove said choices from sorcerers and turn them all into craven max range specs.

Somewhere · September 2020

Joy_Division wrote: »

Somewhere wrote: »

I mean the fact that it's also am unblockable, undosgable, aoe, gap closing stun does sound pretty overloaded if you ask me.

Should it require a target? No, that would kill the skill. That said, I would argue that there is little reason this stun should be unblockable when it already offers so much. The fact that streak and rune prison exist on the same class is hilarious since streak very nearly negates the need for any other stun.

ZOS is always going on about needing to make choices in your builds but then let overloaded skills like this exist in tandem with the rest of the garbage.

If you thought about this from any other perspective than nerfing, you'd realize what you wrote is shortsighted.

.

I cleared the rest of the quote for brevity.

I don't think it's necessarily genuine to say that simply making one single skill blockable, which was my only suggestion since I didn't give anything concrete on rune cage, would turn all sorcerers into "craven max range specs". I don't appreciate you blowing that out of proportion, and I feel that you are projecting the rest of the forum's desire to slam-nerf things into the ground onto me. I did look at this from another perspective than nerfing, that's why I said in a later post that I feel Rune Cage deserves a pass as well to bring it up to par.

Look, I play this class. With Streak on your bar you can very nearly act on a target with complete impunity at any range, dealing full damage at maximum range and controlling the target at close range. Sure, Sorcerer needs to be able to precisely control a stun due to the nature of its class burst, but no one requires a sorcerer to build into delayed burst to grab kills, and anyone saying otherwise is not being genuine. That is just one specific, but effective play style, but not the only one.

That said, I do see your point with Streak in its current form being used offensively, and when I made that post I felt that allowing it be unblockable, undodgable, on as many targets that in the way, while simultaneously offering unparalleled mobility is just a little much. It's the very skill that contributes to the success and popularity of the class. Drop the unblockable tag from that list and the skill remains very, very good regardless of the stacking cost.

I do not think I was suggesting anything that would cause everyone to drop Streak for Rune Cage, nor do I really want that to be the case. Defensive Rune certainly has its applications because most targets cannot dodge in time (usually being stuck in an attacking animation already), and being available for use if one is running Ball of Lightning instead.

At any rate, specifically looking at Rune Cage only and nothing else: Perhaps it is that a maximum range stun cannot be balanced in a satisfying way; being able to apply any kind of stun is very valuable. If that is the case, perhaps a maximum range stun should not exist.

Anyway, my stance on Streak is not nearly as harsh as you probably think, and having given it more thought it's definitely softened. Making it blockable is the only change that I think should be made to it, but not in a vacuum, not without some other comprehensive balancing with other skills/passives. We've had a lot of changes in the last year since the new dev team came in, but since Dragonhold it's been mostly focused on sets. We never got a true passives audit they said we were going to get over a year ago, and I get the feeling the dev team attention has been more focused on other things than class/skill balance.

Joy_Division · September 2020

Somewhere wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Somewhere wrote: »

I mean the fact that it's also am unblockable, undosgable, aoe, gap closing stun does sound pretty overloaded if you ask me.

Should it require a target? No, that would kill the skill. That said, I would argue that there is little reason this stun should be unblockable when it already offers so much. The fact that streak and rune prison exist on the same class is hilarious since streak very nearly negates the need for any other stun.

ZOS is always going on about needing to make choices in your builds but then let overloaded skills like this exist in tandem with the rest of the garbage.

If you thought about this from any other perspective than nerfing, you'd realize what you wrote is shortsighted.

.

I cleared the rest of the quote for brevity.

I don't think it's necessarily genuine to say that simply making one single skill blockable, which was my only suggestion since I didn't give anything concrete on rune cage, would turn all sorcerers into "craven max range specs". I don't appreciate you blowing that out of proportion, and I feel that you are projecting the rest of the forum's desire to slam-nerf things into the ground onto me. I did look at this from another perspective than nerfing, that's why I said in a later post that I feel Rune Cage deserves a pass as well to bring it up to par.

Look, I play this class. With Streak on your bar you can very nearly act on a target with complete impunity at any range, dealing full damage at maximum range and controlling the target at close range. Sure, Sorcerer needs to be able to precisely control a stun due to the nature of its class burst, but no one requires a sorcerer to build into delayed burst to grab kills, and anyone saying otherwise is not being genuine. That is just one specific, but effective play style, but not the only one.

That said, I do see your point with Streak in its current form being used offensively, and when I made that post I felt that allowing it be unblockable, undodgable, on as many targets that in the way, while simultaneously offering unparalleled mobility is just a little much. It's the very skill that contributes to the success and popularity of the class. Drop the unblockable tag from that list and the skill remains very, very good regardless of the stacking cost.

I do not think I was suggesting anything that would cause everyone to drop Streak for Rune Cage, nor do I really want that to be the case. Defensive Rune certainly has its applications because most targets cannot dodge in time (usually being stuck in an attacking animation already), and being available for use if one is running Ball of Lightning instead.

At any rate, specifically looking at Rune Cage only and nothing else: Perhaps it is that a maximum range stun cannot be balanced in a satisfying way; being able to apply any kind of stun is very valuable. If that is the case, perhaps a maximum range stun should not exist.

Anyway, my stance on Streak is not nearly as harsh as you probably think, and having given it more thought it's definitely softened. Making it blockable is the only change that I think should be made to it, but not in a vacuum, not without some other comprehensive balancing with other skills/passives. We've had a lot of changes in the last year since the new dev team came in, but since Dragonhold it's been mostly focused on sets. We never got a true passives audit they said we were going to get over a year ago, and I get the feeling the dev team attention has been more focused on other things than class/skill balance.

Your post is par with all the other forum nerfites posts: multiple replies, listing all its effects (nevermind that the vast majority of the skills in this game do many things), not pointing out the determinantal effects said nerf would have on the class or the game, using the word overloaded multiple times in the same post, etc. If you don't want to be lumped together with all the other forum nerfites, then stop lobbying for nerfs.

Even now you're doing it: people reading this forum already know what the skill can do and if they didn't, they would have figured it out from your multiple posts listing it's multi-functional status. And your lists either do not include or downplay the skill's drawbacks: the only ability in the game that has a very high ramping cost, it works terribly on uneven terrain, and using it as a stun makes the skill's ostensible function - escape - difficult because the sorc is right next to her opponent and must eat the scaling cost twice to get out of gap closer range. The scaling cost is real; I ran down streaking sorcerers on the slowest spec in the game (magplar), so your "unparalleled mobility" contention isn't even true. If this skill was blockable, why would I take the risk and be anywhere near my opponent? This game has multiple unblockable stuns, most (if not all) are close range. Nothing unusual here. If I cant trust the ability in close range, then what's the point of using it aggressively when Rune Cage is max range and can stun a blocking target? Or using the Sorcerer's - err Master's - Staff you get from DSA, add a boatoad of spell damage, and slot the even more annoying Ball of Lightning morph since I'm no longer using the skill aggressively.

And what exactly did you have in mind buffing the spec that already has the longest duration as top tier?!? No matter what you do, you are going to make the strongest max range spec even stronger - *gasp!* - while taking away the only incentive this class has to get within 40 meters its opponent. That's not improving the game. And for what? Because of a close range stun that can;t be blocked that's a dime a dozen in ESO? For the love of the 8 Divines, just freeking CC break and use the 7 seconds of immunity to punish the sorcerer who is now in melee range.

jdahl1979 · September 2020

It's not a gap closer. It's a gap opener. Magsorc want to keep distance to be able to cast their ranged abilities. We mostly want you to chase us and burn stam so we can burn you down. Sounds like you should just steer clear or go make a sorc. No changes needed.

ecru · September 2020

jaws343 wrote: »

Stop chasing people. If you are needing to chase someone down they are either baiting you into a fight in a better location, which the player doing the chasing will complain about how OP they are, or they are running from a fight they cannot win, which, as can be seen here, the player doing the chasing is complaining about.

Not every fight has to end in a victory. Sometimes stalemates are ok.

If sorc gets to choose when to engage and disengage to such a degree, then every other class should be able to also. If you want balance, there it is. There isn't any good reason why sorc should be able to dictate the terms of every encounter with a class ability when most other classes do not have any ability that allows them to do so.

The ability that allows them to dictate the terms of every fight also being an ability that can be used offensively as an unblockable stun is completely out of step with just about every other class ability in the game. It's essentially pvp on easy mode (sorry sorcs) and fighting against it is both predictable and uninteresting, to the point where if a sorc streaks away I will just leave. There is no enjoyment chasing or even spamming a gap closer at a sorc streaking away every time he's about to die, or being hit with an unblockable stun from range when he isn't.

In every other game, extreme mobility generally comes at a very high cost to either mitigation, outgoing damage, utility, ranged damage, or all of those combined. Mobility often means that if you're caught, you're vulnerable. I'm not just talking about MMOs, every class based game that I can think of has this feature, because it just makes sense. Sorcs suffer absolutely none of these penalties.

Vevvev · September 2020

ecru wrote: »

If sorc gets to choose when to engage and disengage to such a degree, then every other class should be able to also. If you want balance, there it is. There isn't any good reason why sorc should be able to dictate the terms of every encounter with a class ability when most other classes do not have any ability that allows them to do so.

All classes can build to have such mobility. Even my Dragonknight can use things like Race Against Time to reposition into a better spot and bait players into going into a location that's not to their advantage. I actually managed to do this to a Nightblade player that had just captured a resource last week. With the NPCs they had me beat but after I broke free from their stun I went into the watchtower and they followed me inside not realizing what trap they were walking into.

ecru · September 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

If sorc gets to choose when to engage and disengage to such a degree, then every other class should be able to also. If you want balance, there it is. There isn't any good reason why sorc should be able to dictate the terms of every encounter with a class ability when most other classes do not have any ability that allows them to do so.

All classes can build to have such mobility. Even my Dragonknight can use things like Race Against Time to reposition into a better spot and bait players into going into a location that's not to their advantage. I actually managed to do this to a Nightblade player that had just captured a resource last week. With the NPCs they had me beat but after I broke free from their stun I went into the watchtower and they followed me inside not realizing what trap they were walking into.

RAT is in no way comparable to Streak. Gonna quote my last paragraph again:

In every other game, extreme mobility generally comes at a very high cost to either mitigation, outgoing damage, utility, ranged damage, or all of those combined. Mobility often means that if you're caught, you're vulnerable. I'm not just talking about MMOs, every class based game that I can think of has this feature, because it just makes sense. Sorcs suffer absolutely none of these penalties.

To build for that kind of mobility on another class it would require building around it. Coward's, s wild hunt, swift jewelry, whatever else, and you still wouldn't have the level of mobility and the unblockable stun that Streak provides. It just isn't balanced at all.

universal_wrath · September 2020

Joy_Division wrote: »

Somewhere wrote: »

I mean the fact that it's also am unblockable, undosgable, aoe, gap closing stun does sound pretty overloaded if you ask me.

Should it require a target? No, that would kill the skill. That said, I would argue that there is little reason this stun should be unblockable when it already offers so much. The fact that streak and rune prison exist on the same class is hilarious since streak very nearly negates the need for any other stun.

ZOS is always going on about needing to make choices in your builds but then let overloaded skills like this exist in tandem with the rest of the garbage.

If you thought about this from any other perspective than nerfing, you'd realize what you wrote is shortsighted.

The one spec that has spent the longest time as top tier in PvP is the max ranged shield stacking sorcerer. Aside from the potency of the class, no other spec can use all of its best skills at 100% effectiveness at max range (although now stacking 4 proc sets by bow spammers is almost as abusive). The removal of crystal frag stun put a little hit into this spec, but with Rune Cage being a max range unblockable stun, all that was required was adding an extra slot to keep the essence of this spec.

What players who are actually seeking interesting gameplay as opposed to a nerf-fest suggested was that by incentivizing a sorcerer to use streak as an offensive skill, i.e. making it good enough that a sorc would not want to play that already strong max ranged spec, that would at least put the sorcerer in danger of close ranged opponents and make for a more interesting fight. And those players were 1000% correct. A lot of sorcs want to take that gamble for the extra bar slot and I'm perfectly fine with a strong spec that plays aggressively and thus gives me the chance to kill them rather than sit back at max range hammering me with all of their powerful skills all the while having zero incentive to ever come within 40 meters of me because you think it's a good idea to nerf something that's worked fine for years. That's the whole point of Streak being better than Rune Cage, so they'll actually use it.

It's rather ironic that you tell ZOS that they need to have its players to make choices in their build when your nerf will remove said choices from sorcerers and turn them all into craven max range specs.

The number of people who uses streak over rune cage should tell you that people are not actually use it to be danger close or have interesting fight. People use what is broken, strong, BIS...etc to win their fights. Most people careless about fair fights, if their is 1 buttun win the game you would most people use. That is why you see people use malacth proc sets currently.

As I sais before, streak could retain most of its functions if used offensively as it should be. Added 60% penalty if no target hit(aka streaking away). No penalty or small penaly when stuning targets. Optional target requirment, meaning you can still use it withit targeting or streak to a target like a gap closer and stun that target while ending either in front or behind them.(very good for stam sorc). I personaly hate it when I streak through someone to stun them and spend some time to ru n back to them to finish my combo, most targets already recover by the time I come back from streak.

Having increased penalty to streak when use defensively (streaking away) should make people think about using streak over BoL.

universal_wrath · September 2020

ecru wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Stop chasing people. If you are needing to chase someone down they are either baiting you into a fight in a better location, which the player doing the chasing will complain about how OP they are, or they are running from a fight they cannot win, which, as can be seen here, the player doing the chasing is complaining about.

Not every fight has to end in a victory. Sometimes stalemates are ok.

If sorc gets to choose when to engage and disengage to such a degree, then every other class should be able to also. If you want balance, there it is. There isn't any good reason why sorc should be able to dictate the terms of every encounter with a class ability when most other classes do not have any ability that allows them to do so.

The ability that allows them to dictate the terms of every fight also being an ability that can be used offensively as an unblockable stun is completely out of step with just about every other class ability in the game. It's essentially pvp on easy mode (sorry sorcs) and fighting against it is both predictable and uninteresting, to the point where if a sorc streaks away I will just leave. There is no enjoyment chasing or even spamming a gap closer at a sorc streaking away every time he's about to die, or being hit with an unblockable stun from range when he isn't.

In every other game, extreme mobility generally comes at a very high cost to either mitigation, outgoing damage, utility, ranged damage, or all of those combined. Mobility often means that if you're caught, you're vulnerable. I'm not just talking about MMOs, every class based game that I can think of has this feature, because it just makes sense. Sorcs suffer absolutely none of these penalties.

Nightvlade exist, so sorcerer is not the only class that get to choose when to engage/disengage. Both classes have to thibks in common, both a weak in defense general. Two of the greatest counter to streak is indoor fight(inside building, keeps...etc) and uneven terrain. Fighting both sorcerer and nightblade in open world is a no no.

Sorcerer defnietly have drawbacks. They need high max heal and magicka and stamina as well as high spell damage and resistance to fight on equal footing of other classes. Strong shields scale with max health and magicka and high resistance. Heals if using pets scale with high spell damage and max magicka. Shield stack and streaking require max magicka and a lot of magicka regenration. Anything less than 1500 regen with dark conversion and use have a probam with sustain. Dark conversion require max stamina/magicka. All in all, if talking about magicka sorcerer, you need to take into account all of these thing when trying to put up a build. You build lacking any of the stats above and you usualy end up with defective build that lack in sustain, damage, or survivability. Most classes can build much easier either into 1 or 2 stat abd have an effective build. Current max health proc meta should give you some insight.

novemberhhh · September 2020

should add a targeting requirement to sprint too
actually any and all movement in general

Solariken · September 2020

I find the OP idea interesting. They could make the distance variable to act more like a gap closer, bringing you right to the target. It makes sense when you think about how Leap works.

I really hate that this morph is so incredibly powerful offensively AND a get-out-of-jail-free card.

Ball of Lightning is the escape tool. It's very powerful but also more balanced.

P.S. fix the rubber-banding, that crap is so annoying.

Chilly-McFreeze · September 2020

Solariken wrote: »

Ball of Lightning is the escape tool. It's very powerful but also more balanced.

Is that so? I remember the forum got flooded with threads about how op ball of lightning is as it's gap closer, escape tool, snare removal and absorb in a single skill. What I take from that is that absolutely everything is deemed OP in someones opinion. Bolt Escape worked without target requirement for all of this game's life but suddenly it's seen as problem. Streak always stunned. BoL was always an absorb. This threat is just the latest edition of the inconsiderate and uninterrupted forum nerf rage that the class experiences since always. Nothing to see here.

Lord-Otto · September 2020

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Ball of Lightning is the escape tool. It's very powerful but also more balanced.

Is that so? I remember the forum got flooded with threads about how op ball of lightning is as it's gap closer, escape tool, snare removal and absorb in a single skill. What I take from that is that absolutely everything is deemed OP in someones opinion. Bolt Escape worked without target requirement for all of this game's life but suddenly it's seen as problem. Streak always stunned. BoL was always an absorb. This threat is just the latest edition of the inconsiderate and uninterrupted forum nerf rage that the class experiences since always. Nothing to see here.

BoL really is incredibly overpowered at what it does. It's just kept in check because
1. Sorcs need an unavoidable stun, so Streak
2. the stamina overlords of Cyrodiil are barely affected by BoL
Make Rune Cage undodgable and BoL absorb melee skills, and this forum will ignite in black flames, mark my words!
x'D

ThoraxtheDark · September 2020

Shouldnt be able to spam streak 4 times, also why is streak allowed in bgs lmao

MincVinyl · September 2020

Honestly I would rather see all other gap closers work like streak where they are a skill shot of sorts. Gap closers for years have had to be changed over and over.

abilities like shield charge would work like streak but not instant teleport. Aim and then charge, first enemy without cc immunity hit gets stunned.

abilities like leap, notorious for having issues so much so that they abide by their own old gap closer rules, would work like caltrops. Point to the ground where you want to leap and jump to that location, stunning/damaging whoever is in the area.

This change would essentially make it so reaching those further away targets has a layer of skill to them, preventing them from being abused. While at the same time this would also allow smoother mobility for a greater variety of players.

kingsforged · September 2020

MincVinyl wrote: »

Honestly I would rather see all other gap closers work like streak where they are a skill shot of sorts. Gap closers for years have had to be changed over and over.

abilities like shield charge would work like streak but not instant teleport. Aim and then charge, first enemy without cc immunity hit gets stunned.

abilities like leap, notorious for having issues so much so that they abide by their own old gap closer rules, would work like caltrops. Point to the ground where you want to leap and jump to that location, stunning/damaging whoever is in the area.
This change would essentially make it so reaching those further away targets has a layer of skill to them, preventing them from being abused. While at the same time this would also allow smoother mobility for a greater variety of players.

This is what I'd like to see, shame all these nerf-ragers aren't able to read properly. It makes movement skills far more versatile, and adds a new layer of skill based mechanics.

Other MMORPGs already do this, and imo it's a far more preferable system. The game also already has these kinds of mechanics partially built in and wouldn't require a huge overhaul.

Pauwer · September 2020

I think the skill is great and it should be copy pasted into a some guild skill tree, so all my chars can use it. Thank you.

Beardimus · September 2020

kingsforged wrote: »

Or remove it from other gap closers.

The lack of a targeting requirement is what makes this ability insanely overpowered. It's a spammable teleport that allows you to either gap close OR escape, with next to no possibility of being caught (especially now with all gap closers being completely broken AND streak causing rubberband visuals that completely break all targeting on the sorc). This ability has been a balancing issue for a VERY long time, yet the answer is so obvious.

Either take away the ability to use this as a movement skill with NO equal by adding a targeting requirement, or give the same movement ability to other gap closers.

No. You miss the point entirely.