Knight Slayer proc is too powerful

Davadin · September 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

I don't know what this is.... but it's comically overpowered.

I would remove this from the game asap. Otherwise I'm probably retiring from this game's PvP.... or at the very least quitting my Templar again. Because this crap is just absurd.

what the hell is this?

Attackopsn · September 2020

Maybe stop playing a 50k hp+ siegeling build

Crash427 · September 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

Oblivion damage was a response to health stacking tanks. People complained about the tanks, so we got sets like this. Now people are complaining about the sets and we've come full circle.

Keep in mind builds like this are pretty much only really strong against people who stack health. So a person is giving up an entire 5 piece set to gain an advantage against one specific type of enemy. Thats a hefty price to pay.

That damage ignores defense and I'm told shields too - and even Mist Form. It's not just health it's effective against.

in any case, I would argue no single proc - whether it's a 5 set or not (and let's not forget the set gives other bonuses too, it's not just that one proc) should give you that much of an advantage over someone else, no matter what build they are. It's just too much of a hard counter.

It may ignore defenses but the amount of damage it does scales off the target's health. It's basically useless against most players. You just happen to be playing the exact type of build it is designed to counter.

In other words, this is 100% a l2p issue.

OrphanOfK · September 2020

There are many tank builds that even i struggle to put down. Between dks and wardens. They can outheal and mitigate a lot of damage. Most of my fights end up being longer fights. Which I like. I like 1v1 more than ganking. My setup can be used against any player but works better for either really low health or very high health. But I fight anyone all the same because I like the battle. Also the person with me was not wearing knight slayer. They couldn't break through your defense so they went down to capture the flag. I stood on top of the tower and finished. Simply because thats what my build is made for. Mist form is a great skill. If you wouldn't have went up top on the tower and stayed stagnant, but instead went into the npcs in that form I wouldn't have lasted long. But you are very tanky so you have a nice build.

geonsocal · September 2020

I don't know orphan - sounds like you may need to be nerfed

OrphanOfK · September 2020

So nerf the gear. Ill just use another build. I just play what works and is not meta at the time.

Waffennacht · September 2020

OrphanOfK wrote: »

So nerf the gear. Ill just use another build. I just play what works and is not meta at the time.

They were just making a joke about how you were talked about as if you were an ability

OrphanOfK · September 2020

I wasnt hostile. I was saying that I dont mind being nerfed if so. It would just make me try to think of a different build.

Jeremy · September 2020

Crash427 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

Oblivion damage was a response to health stacking tanks. People complained about the tanks, so we got sets like this. Now people are complaining about the sets and we've come full circle.

Keep in mind builds like this are pretty much only really strong against people who stack health. So a person is giving up an entire 5 piece set to gain an advantage against one specific type of enemy. Thats a hefty price to pay.

That damage ignores defense and I'm told shields too - and even Mist Form. It's not just health it's effective against.

in any case, I would argue no single proc - whether it's a 5 set or not (and let's not forget the set gives other bonuses too, it's not just that one proc) should give you that much of an advantage over someone else, no matter what build they are. It's just too much of a hard counter.

It may ignore defenses but the amount of damage it does scales off the target's health. It's basically useless against most players. You just happen to be playing the exact type of build it is designed to counter.

In other words, this is 100% a l2p issue.

Right. Because keeping my health low and not using defense is how I "learn to play".

That makes perfect sense alright. haha

Is this just like your automatic response to any post that you don't agree with or doesn't affect you? Learn to play? Because I've realized it's actually those who go around throwing the term "learn how to play" around who usually need to learn how to play themselves. Because procs are too strong right now - and people who actually know how to play know this already.

But I guess I'm just suppose to just change gear in the middle of the fight to lower my health and put all my points and change my gear sets into something else besides defense when ever I fight someone sporting this proc...

When you figure out how to play like that let me know, ok.

Jeremy · September 2020

OrphanOfK wrote: »

So nerf the gear. Ill just use another build. I just play what works and is not meta at the time.

Apparently it doesn't work according to some of these posters, because it's "useless" against most players they say. So you're lucky you ran into me otherwise your character would be pointless. haha (I'm being sarcastic)

Anyway, I'm not trying to rag on you Orphan. I just think the proc is too strong against defensive characters is all. No single proc should just basically ignore a character's entire build - including their health, armor, resistances, shields... hell even Mist Form. Especially now since they nerfed healing so hard.

If they are going to have procs like this then they need to at least give every class a good heal based on health so defensive builds at least have a chance against it.

Jeremy · September 2020

OrphanOfK wrote: »

There are many tank builds that even i struggle to put down. Between dks and wardens. They can outheal and mitigate a lot of damage. Most of my fights end up being longer fights. Which I like. I like 1v1 more than ganking. My setup can be used against any player but works better for either really low health or very high health. But I fight anyone all the same because I like the battle. Also the person with me was not wearing knight slayer. They couldn't break through your defense so they went down to capture the flag. I stood on top of the tower and finished. Simply because thats what my build is made for. Mist form is a great skill. If you wouldn't have went up top on the tower and stayed stagnant, but instead went into the npcs in that form I wouldn't have lasted long. But you are very tanky so you have a nice build.

Thanks. You have a nice build too.

Mist From is a great skill.... usually. But not against you. ^^ It's a shame too because I thought I had finally put something together that could actually stay alive on this game's zanny pvp without having to worry about being obliterated by " procs".

And I seriously doubt running into all those weak NPCs would have helped me any against you either. I had already killed all the elite NPCs before you and your friend showed up (except that one guardian that followed me up the tower who was almost dead). So all the npcs left were the weak ones you would have killed with ease. I doubt they would not have been a help to me.

My plan was to lure you both to the top of the tower and then knock you off of it with my javelin. haha That's why I went up there. But I was so busy trying to figure out what on earth you were doing to me that was taking so much of my health off I got distracted. So that's why I was "stagnant". I was trying to figure out what in the hell you were doing to me.

Honestly, I don't think there is anything I can do against your build. Templars have no health-based heal and that proc of yours ignores literally every form of defense I have. So that's probably why defensive DKs and Wardens can give you a good fight. They can actually heal back the damage that nasty proc of yours does to them. I can't. Maybe before the healing nerfs and the changes to drain I could have possibly stalemated you. But now that they made drain suck in PvP - yeah there's just no chance. Especially if your friend had been using Knight Slayer as well.

I think this game just hates the Templar.

Jeremy · September 2020

Davadin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I don't know what this is.... but it's comically overpowered.

I would remove this from the game asap. Otherwise I'm probably retiring from this game's PvP.... or at the very least quitting my Templar again. Because this crap is just absurd.

what the hell is this?

It's Knight Slayer Davadin. I got the player's name confused with the effect.

I think I'm just going to correct the title to avoid further confusion.

Jeremy · September 2020

JinxxND wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

Oblivion damage was a response to health stacking tanks. People complained about the tanks, so we got sets like this. Now people are complaining about the sets and we've come full circle.

Keep in mind builds like this are pretty much only really strong against people who stack health. So a person is giving up an entire 5 piece set to gain an advantage against one specific type of enemy. Thats a hefty price to pay.

That damage ignores defense and I'm told shields too - and even Mist Form. It's not just health it's effective against.

in any case, I would argue no single proc - whether it's a 5 set or not (and let's not forget the set gives other bonuses too, it's not just that one proc) should give you that much of an advantage over someone else, no matter what build they are. It's just too much of a hard counter.

So you are saying that there should be 0 counter play to your tank style game play while everything else has a form of counter play? Oblivion damage is fine if not a lil weak and niche now esp since we don't have bleeds to cut thru tanks anymore, I personally have a oblivion damage glyph on my 2h cause in the grand scheme of builds in ESO you always have some troll type tank you come across that doesn't want to die or someone crutching off of Goliath form and I feel as a well balanced dps build you should be able to kill everything even if something take a lil longer 1v1

I'll never understand why people say it's "trolling " to build a defensive build yet building all these super offensive builds that kill players almost instantly is just fine. That's always been a weird logic to me. So maybe if people stopped creating builds that nuked everyone in a matter of seconds (or less) people would be less inclined to create these defensive builds you hate so much to begin with. And 1v1 situations are so rare in PvP they are not even worth considering. So I could care less about 1v1 or being "balanced". The goal of a defensive character is to be able to stay alive in a real life pvp situation... not to create some balanced build so they can win in nonexistent 1v1 situations.

Anyway: I don't like the rock paper scissors approach to PvP. Never have, never will. No type of damage should simply ignore every kind of defense in the game. It's just stupid to me. So no, I don't believe in hard counters like this. If they just made it do more damage based on the health of an opponent it wouldn't be too bad and I could get behind it. But having it ignore every single form of mitigation in the game also is just too much.

Waffennacht · September 2020

OrphanOfK wrote: »

I wasnt hostile. I was saying that I dont mind being nerfed if so. It would just make me try to think of a different build.

Lol, no, what I mean is. Not your build - but you, the human, you shall be nerfed!

No worries man, I think we shall nerf you by removing a few fingers first... (To better illustrate the joke)

JinxxND · September 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

Oblivion damage was a response to health stacking tanks. People complained about the tanks, so we got sets like this. Now people are complaining about the sets and we've come full circle.

Keep in mind builds like this are pretty much only really strong against people who stack health. So a person is giving up an entire 5 piece set to gain an advantage against one specific type of enemy. Thats a hefty price to pay.

That damage ignores defense and I'm told shields too - and even Mist Form. It's not just health it's effective against.

in any case, I would argue no single proc - whether it's a 5 set or not (and let's not forget the set gives other bonuses too, it's not just that one proc) should give you that much of an advantage over someone else, no matter what build they are. It's just too much of a hard counter.

So you are saying that there should be 0 counter play to your tank style game play while everything else has a form of counter play? Oblivion damage is fine if not a lil weak and niche now esp since we don't have bleeds to cut thru tanks anymore, I personally have a oblivion damage glyph on my 2h cause in the grand scheme of builds in ESO you always have some troll type tank you come across that doesn't want to die or someone crutching off of Goliath form and I feel as a well balanced dps build you should be able to kill everything even if something take a lil longer 1v1

I'll never understand why people say it's "trolling " to build a defensive build yet building all these super offensive builds that kill players almost instantly is just fine. That's always been a weird logic to me. So maybe if people stopped creating builds that nuked everyone in a matter of seconds (or less) people would be less inclined to create these defensive builds you hate so much to begin with. And 1v1 situations are so rare in PvP they are not even worth considering. So I could care less about 1v1 or being "balanced". The goal of a defensive character is to be able to stay alive in a real life pvp situation... not to create some balanced build so they can win in nonexistent 1v1 situations.

Anyway: I don't like the rock paper scissors approach to PvP. Never have, never will. No type of damage should simply ignore every kind of defense in the game. It's just stupid to me. So no, I don't believe in hard counters like this. If they just made it do more damage based on the health of an opponent it wouldn't be too bad and I could get behind it. But having it ignore every single form of mitigation in the game also is just too much.

Guess what those super offensive builds can die really easily so there is counter play, a defensive builds that just trolls and possibly is an annoying cc bot needs counter play to that's why we have oblivion damage which was changed to specifically counter these type of builds if you have problems with that maybe adjust your build some more to better sustain heals or run away from these builds

Jeremy · September 2020

JinxxND wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

Oblivion damage was a response to health stacking tanks. People complained about the tanks, so we got sets like this. Now people are complaining about the sets and we've come full circle.

Keep in mind builds like this are pretty much only really strong against people who stack health. So a person is giving up an entire 5 piece set to gain an advantage against one specific type of enemy. Thats a hefty price to pay.

That damage ignores defense and I'm told shields too - and even Mist Form. It's not just health it's effective against.

in any case, I would argue no single proc - whether it's a 5 set or not (and let's not forget the set gives other bonuses too, it's not just that one proc) should give you that much of an advantage over someone else, no matter what build they are. It's just too much of a hard counter.

So you are saying that there should be 0 counter play to your tank style game play while everything else has a form of counter play? Oblivion damage is fine if not a lil weak and niche now esp since we don't have bleeds to cut thru tanks anymore, I personally have a oblivion damage glyph on my 2h cause in the grand scheme of builds in ESO you always have some troll type tank you come across that doesn't want to die or someone crutching off of Goliath form and I feel as a well balanced dps build you should be able to kill everything even if something take a lil longer 1v1

I'll never understand why people say it's "trolling " to build a defensive build yet building all these super offensive builds that kill players almost instantly is just fine. That's always been a weird logic to me. So maybe if people stopped creating builds that nuked everyone in a matter of seconds (or less) people would be less inclined to create these defensive builds you hate so much to begin with. And 1v1 situations are so rare in PvP they are not even worth considering. So I could care less about 1v1 or being "balanced". The goal of a defensive character is to be able to stay alive in a real life pvp situation... not to create some balanced build so they can win in nonexistent 1v1 situations.

Anyway: I don't like the rock paper scissors approach to PvP. Never have, never will. No type of damage should simply ignore every kind of defense in the game. It's just stupid to me. So no, I don't believe in hard counters like this. If they just made it do more damage based on the health of an opponent it wouldn't be too bad and I could get behind it. But having it ignore every single form of mitigation in the game also is just too much.

Guess what those super offensive builds can die really easily so there is counter play, a defensive builds that just trolls and possibly is an annoying cc bot needs counter play to that's why we have oblivion damage which was changed to specifically counter these type of builds if you have problems with that maybe adjust your build some more to better sustain heals or run away from these builds

Almost everyone I see dies super easy now in no CP PvP. You have to have tons of defense now just to live for more than a few seconds... and even then it isn't enough. So this is hardly about being some invincible god with no counters. It's about just finding a way to live... period. People are dropping like flies and I highly doubt it's because we just all need to adjust our builds.

So there is already plenty of counters to defense on this game. It's called damage. There is no need to have this kind of proc that literally ignores all defense. That's the last thing this game needs - and I mean the last thing it needs.

Crash427 · September 2020

A defensive templar build can be practically unkillable in a 1v1. You yourself said that templar has no health based heal, so why stack health? I have a templar troll build that none of my friends have been able to kill in a duel(in CP, haven't tried it in no CP) and it has less than 30k health. Also Knight Slayer requires fully charged heavy attacks to proc. Heavy attacks are generally easy to avoid, assuming you're not fighting a NB running the new dual wield gank set up.

Jeremy · September 2020

Crash427 wrote: »

A defensive templar build can be practically unkillable in a 1v1. You yourself said that templar has no health based heal, so why stack health? I have a templar troll build that none of my friends have been able to kill in a duel(in CP, haven't tried it in no CP) and it has less than 30k health. Also Knight Slayer requires fully charged heavy attacks to proc. Heavy attacks are generally easy to avoid, assuming you're not fighting a NB running the new dual wield gank set up.

Let me specify that I'm talking about no CP only. I can't really comment on CP PvP - which is a whole different animal.

Crash427 · September 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

A defensive templar build can be practically unkillable in a 1v1. You yourself said that templar has no health based heal, so why stack health? I have a templar troll build that none of my friends have been able to kill in a duel(in CP, haven't tried it in no CP) and it has less than 30k health. Also Knight Slayer requires fully charged heavy attacks to proc. Heavy attacks are generally easy to avoid, assuming you're not fighting a NB running the new dual wield gank set up.

Let me specify that I'm talking about no CP only. I can't really comment on CP PvP - which is a whole different animal.

Well for defense in No CP just do what everyone else seems to be doing, abuse the targeting system, or lack of, and run engine guardian xD

Jeremy · September 2020

Crash427 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

A defensive templar build can be practically unkillable in a 1v1. You yourself said that templar has no health based heal, so why stack health? I have a templar troll build that none of my friends have been able to kill in a duel(in CP, haven't tried it in no CP) and it has less than 30k health. Also Knight Slayer requires fully charged heavy attacks to proc. Heavy attacks are generally easy to avoid, assuming you're not fighting a NB running the new dual wield gank set up.

Let me specify that I'm talking about no CP only. I can't really comment on CP PvP - which is a whole different animal.

Well for defense in No CP just do what everyone else seems to be doing, abuse the targeting system, or lack of, and run engine guardian xD

That does seem to be a popular (and annoying) tactic. Though I can't really blame them for using it since the damage is so absurd right now.

It's just a shame because I thought I had finally found a way to actually create a successful defense in No CP PvP. But then this proc just had to come along and ruin my day. It's like I said, if it just did more damage or something based on my health I would be ok with it. But the fact it just completely ignores every defensive mechanism I have... my armor, my resistances, my shields, my health., even my Mist Form... it's just too much in my opinion. And it's not a criticism of Orphan or anything, who I don't blame for using the tools at his disposal. I just don't believe they should have a proc that ignores all defenses like that, especially in light of the healing nerfs. Any battleground team sporting a few of these sets is going to be able to make short work of any tank, which kind of renders the whole point of making or having a tank moot.

taugrim · September 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

It's just a shame because I thought I had finally found a way to actually create a successful defense in No CP PvP. But then this proc just had to come along and ruin my day. It's like I said, if it just did more damage or something based on my health I would be ok with it. But the fact it just completely ignores every defensive mechanism I have... my armor, my resistances, my shields, my health., even my Mist Form... it's just too much in my opinion. And it's not a criticism of Orphan or anything, who I don't blame for using the tools at his disposal. I just don't believe they should have a proc that ignores all defenses like that, especially in light of the healing nerfs. Any battleground team sporting a few of these sets is going to be able to make short work of any tank, which kind of renders the whole point of making or having a tank moot.

That's understandable, however:
1. the Devs made changes to move towards a less tanky meta, with more damage
2. this is literally only one build, that I have not seen anyone else running. Every build, including your tanky tanky one, should have counters to it
3. the Knight Slayer build is far less effective against a lot of the sub-20k DPS you'll see in BGs and PVP

kingsforged · September 2020

Knight Slayer and Oblivion damage in general is complete garbage against anyone NOT running a super high health build. It scales off HP and ignores resistances, unless you're over like 30k HP minimum it's pretty damn terrible.

Also dual-wield is quite possible bugged and hitting twice on heavy attacks, there's other posts about heavy attack based sets getting double-procs off dual-wield when they shouldn't.

Jeremy · September 2020

kingsforged wrote: »

Knight Slayer and Oblivion damage in general is complete garbage against anyone NOT running a super high health build. It scales off HP and ignores resistances, unless you're over like 30k HP minimum it's pretty damn terrible.

Also dual-wield is quite possible bugged and hitting twice on heavy attacks, there's other posts about heavy attack based sets getting double-procs off dual-wield when they shouldn't.

This might have been what was happening because I was taking way more damage during that fight than is usually the case. I also haven't encountered that kind of damage since then either, even against other players using Knight Slayer. It was just ridiculous how fast and how much damage that proc was doing to me.

So maybe it was bugged. I dunno...

If I ever run into Orphan again in Cyrodil (God help me) perhaps I'll invite him to a couple of duels to test it. Because either it was bugged or he has just found a uniquely powerful build against me. Because there is just no way I would ever be able to defend against the kind of damage he was pumping out. It was crazy.

Jeremy · September 2020

taugrim wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

It's just a shame because I thought I had finally found a way to actually create a successful defense in No CP PvP. But then this proc just had to come along and ruin my day. It's like I said, if it just did more damage or something based on my health I would be ok with it. But the fact it just completely ignores every defensive mechanism I have... my armor, my resistances, my shields, my health., even my Mist Form... it's just too much in my opinion. And it's not a criticism of Orphan or anything, who I don't blame for using the tools at his disposal. I just don't believe they should have a proc that ignores all defenses like that, especially in light of the healing nerfs. Any battleground team sporting a few of these sets is going to be able to make short work of any tank, which kind of renders the whole point of making or having a tank moot.

That's understandable, however:
1. the Devs made changes to move towards a less tanky meta, with more damage
2. this is literally only one build, that I have not seen anyone else running. Every build, including your tanky tanky one, should have counters to it
3. the Knight Slayer build is far less effective against a lot of the sub-20k DPS you'll see in BGs and PVP

I'm not against counters that give players certain advantages over others. But I am against hard counters that just obliterate the other person. And that was the case here.

Defensive characters at least need to be able to put up a stubborn defense to stay viable, otherwise it's simply not worth sacrificing so much of their offense. Though as another poster pointed out, it's possible this was a bug involving dual wield and heavy attack procs. And getting double procced would explain what happened to me here. So I'm going to be keeping my eye out to see if this happens to me again and note the circumstances if it does.

In any case; I hope ZoS looks into this. Because something is going on here. It's either a bug or there is a counter build that is just too powerful against its intended target.

precambria · September 2020

BUD chill, oblivion damage is % based so it ignores the damage reduction of mist form, its the same with sloads and the enchant. It's mostly used with dual wield and isnt even properly stats for that, sometimes used lighting staff to kill rolling people but it's not really OP you just have to know how the set works to play vs it

precambria · September 2020

There needs to be a counter to people who decide to do PvP as an actual tank, perma mist, or 2hander sword and board heavy armor stamdens who deserves every bit of discomfort that knight slayer provides

Jeremy · September 2020

precambria wrote: »

There needs to be a counter to people who decide to do PvP as an actual tank, perma mist, or 2hander sword and board heavy armor stamdens who deserves every bit of discomfort that knight slayer provides

What I'm talking about here wasn't "discomfort" or a "counter". It was an obliteration. And no, I didn't deserve it. haha

It might have been a bug. It hasn't happened to me since and I've already fought several people sporting Knight Slayer already and it wasn't nearly so bad. So I'm just going to chalk this up as a freak incident and hope the developers fix what ever it was that caused this proc to go crazy on me. Because I've never seen a single person be able to take so much of my health off so fast.

FirmamentOfStars · September 2020

There is no bug involved. Duel wield with knight slayer only procs the set once and not twice as you are assuming (there is another set proccinh twice from it, but knight slayer does not).

There is quite some variety in builds in this game, because there is no allrounder build doing everything well. Your build probably works decently against many other opponents, but badly against this one. You got obliterated because of two reason: your build probably lacks healing over time and defensively you probably rely on block, your resistances, mistform and honor the dead/breath of life. Your build therefore just gets countered, since knight slayer ignores those mechanics, meanwhile hots and dodge would make a knight slayer build pretty weak. Secondly you didnt know what was going on. This is quite some l2p issue, because if you had known the enemy wears knight slayer, you would have played differently. But your lack of knowledge and build choice made you lose easely.

So what can you learn from it? There is no allrounder build and you always get bad matchups from time to time in PvP. Before the vampire rework, every vampire had bad luck to face a magdk for example or magsorcs and shieldbreaker before its changes. Also now you know what was killing you and how it works. Next time try to avoid the heavy attacks and make the set useless for the opponent (line of sight and dodge rolls will help a lot). Also the set isnt OP at all, especially since it is a magicka set used on stamina chars, so they almost get no stats by wearing it but the heavy attack buff.

About your idea for more health based heals: reconsider saying such nonsense. Health based heals are one of the biggest PvP problems atm and makes one class more than strong because of a healtg based heal. Its cancerous and brings up builds, that shouldnt work as well as they currently do (beeing immortal while one shotting enemy players).

Sahidom · September 2020

and the all health builds see their bane that skips through all their resistance layers. You can thank the previous tank meta builds for oblivion damage.

xshatox · September 2020

Just like me when i tried to burst a thew harbringer build. Before I realize whats happening I am dead. Had to change strategy after that.