Would a macro using 1 key to do 3-5 LAs sequentially be against TOS & potentially get you banned?

ChaosWotan · September 2020

"Against the TOS or not, a lot of the players that consider themselves top tier use macro mice and a series of macro's. One of the more famous, more vocal streamers and his cabal of followers are the worst offenders."

I didn't know that, 'cause had read that you need flexibility to adapt to different situations (which is logical), and asssumed that the elite, like Alcast, are so good that they don't need macros.

But, ofc, for ambushing and instakilling an enemy it's effective to use macros, something people have complained about since 2014. That should be banned.

Surprised that some streamers use macros. Have they no pride?

But if an old woman with arthritis uses a macro to LA in PvP, good for her. Gamers are getting older too, so critics of macros today may be forced to use them in the future.

Sylvermynx · September 2020

Eh.... I'M an old woman. 73 before the end of this year.... and yeah, my reflexes are NOT what they were even 15 years ago. But I don't use macros, as (even though my keyboard is an original Logi G15 - and goddesses forbid it ever dies as I DO use the macro capability in Word and Excel) I just don't think it sporting. And since I'm a solo player, I don't really need "super duper skills" - yup, I die (sometimes a LOT - like on my latest 50 who's only CP 60 at the moment) but that's okay.

I do not thankfully have arthritis - I'm just slower to react these days....

Kiyakotari · September 2020

I also have serious pain issues, along with problems with stiffness in my joints, and problems with my muscles moving without my intending them to move (myoclonic jerks).

My current gaming setup incorporates a full size keyboard for typing in chat, and then a gamepad for my left hand (I use the Razer Tartarus Pro) and a gaming mouse with 12 programmable thumb buttons for my right hand (I like the UtechSmart Venus, because of the trigger key and the non-gloss texture of the body). The buttons on the gamepad and the mouse are programmed to read as keyboard inputs for the normal ESO controls, so I haven't really needed to re-map the ESO keybindings. This way, if I push thumb button "1" on my mouse, my computer reads that as me pushing "E" on the keyboard, and I am able to interact with an object or NPC in the game. And so on. I don't program in multi-key macros or combinations of key, or key sequences. I don't need to. I just need to move the already available keys into a configuration that's more accessible for me.

This setup has been working for me for some time. However, at the start of the most recent event (Imperial City Event) I started getting kicked from the game for "hitting the messaging limit." I did some digging around, and this is apparently caused most often by latency/lag, which makes a bunch of commands all hit the server at once, even though they were sent separately. The server reads them as happening at the same time, and boots you. I'm guessing it's because of the increased population from the IC event.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · September 2020

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

daemondamian wrote: »

TLDR: can I use a macro for hitting the same key several times in a row for solo PVE as a werewolf to help me avoid pain problems from doing it normally?

I have 2 werewolf alt characters that recently I've been using to solo farm Blackheart Haven for an Undaunted Unweaver Lightning Staff for another alt that I'm making a heavy staff attack build for.

I have adhesive capsulitis (frozen shoulder) in my left shoulder & pain problems with my right shoulder from being in a car accident. Doing certain things makes my right shoulder worse to the point sometimes that normal painkillers & anti-inflammatories don't work & I can't even play the game or do other normal household stuff like dishes.

Repeatedly using the mouse for LAs in werewolf form is one of the things that makes it worse - it's one of the reasons I don't run those alts in WW form much.

I know I can make a key on the keyboard a secondary control for LAs & made 'v' one but it's in too of an awkward position to use normally because then I have to move my hand back up to the movement & 1-5 keys.

If I could use a macro that made hitting one key repeat 3-5 light attacks in a row then possibly I could play more often in WW form & even keep solo farming BH.

But if I could & did make one & used it would I be opening myself up for a ban?

Also I have been running BH with my healer in pug groups when it's been the pledge & have lost count of how many runs I've done. Only one time did someone else get the UU LS but must have wanted to keep it. The only other char I soloed BH on was my magblade using hindrance potion, hist sap etc & it was not something I would ever choose to or possibly could do again.

They say it's against the rules on here. But I've never seen an official post from an ZoS employee confirming that is against the terms of service. I've asked around too. So it doesn't seem like anyone on the board is aware of one either.

I can tell you this: if you do use them (and I'm not recommending that you do) you certainly won't be the only one. Macro use is widespread on this game and many many people use them. I have also yet to meet a single person who was banned for it. So if using macros are against the rules - it seems to me like they are very lax on enforcing it.

You can find a number of sources about macros on this thread, mostly found the last time somebody asked me to produce ZOS quotes.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460348/macro-in-action/

Thanks to you and Maiwren both for the link. But from what I see - it says macros you create from using gaming mice and controllers aren't against the Terms of Service. Just macros you create from third party software - which I guess in this context means addons.

So it seems to me that macros themselves are basically allowed. Because I don't see a whole lot of difference in creating a macro though addon software or making them through software that comes with your gaming mouse. So this would probably explain why macro use is so widespread on this game and I have yet to see or hear about anyone actually being banned for using them.

The software for mice and keyboards where macros can be created is third party software and as such is in violation of the ToS. Zos does not make an exception for them.

So why does ZoS single out gaming keyboards and mice in that comment Maiwren linked as being ok to use in the context of macros?

A lot of gaming mouses these days have extensive software to create macros

Zos does not permit the use of macros in combat, period. It is irrelevant what 3rd party application is used to create the macro.

The issue is how a player chooses to use the software provided, not that a mouse comes with basic software for creating a macro.

This isn't quite true to my understanding the part which ZOS specifically bans in the TOS is "multiple actions via 1 key press". For example a macro which did key_down, key_up and nothing else (so that the ability fired as soon as you pressed the key if you were slow to lift your fingers) I belive is considered ok as one key press = 1 action still. However I don't use macros so haven't ever sought clarity.

ChaosWotan · September 2020

"Eh.... I'M an old woman. 73 before the end of this year.... and yeah, my reflexes are NOT what they were even 15 years ago. But I don't use macros ..." (...)

"I do not thankfully have arthritis - I'm just slower to react these days...."

Old age is often correlatef with pain issues, but if you are 105 and have no physical/neurological handicap then you are on the same level of opportunity as everyone else, even better than an 18 year old with a handicap. So the point is handicap not age in itself when discussing the legitimacy of macros.

I wish Zeni would get some fast macros for their handicapped servers.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · September 2020

On Macro's,

When I was a dedicated PC player (using mouse and keyboard), [Note= when the PC transfer to PS4 came, I took it as there was rampant cheating on PC (people were able to at one point cast multiple ultimate's one after another, like 5 in a row, resurrect themselves and fly in the sky) and I wanted to get away from it and most of my good friends went to the PS4, so PS4 is my home, sometimes I get on PC to test the PTS, but not as much as I should] I looked into Macro's to find out what all the fuss was about.

So at one point on PC I tried out Macro's on my mouse, just to see if it worked one day in PvE, and it does but remember that there is a global cooldown on skills/abilities and light/heavy attack weaving. You can only use one skill/abilities a second but can weave light and heavy attacks (and also medium attacks, those so called partial Heavy attacks) with them.

Some Macro's have a recording feature, as in you can record your attack string (multiple light / heavy attack weave with abilities and then play it back when assigned to a single button), and this is basically the same speed as when you would do it in real game time. Someone using a Macro like this will more than likely not get caught, and also realize they could make multiple attack strings (using the recorder), like for example, three (3) of them for different attack rotations and you or ZOS would not know because of the timing, plus they could just use regular button usage as well with the attacks.

The real cheating aspect is when the people who make the recordings can then go in and edit them to shorten the timing on the string, now remember it is still a one (1) second global cooldown, so you could only shorten the timing only so much for it to work, but here is where ZOS can see it. ZOS can gather data that is quicker than a one (1) second attack and realize you are using a Macro.

And Haven't were heard from people at ZOS say some people are quicker than others at pressing buttons and making Skills/abilities go off, hmmm.... sounds like some of those people could be using regular timed Macro's or maybe they are just really good players.... Maybe..

Well anyway, "May you all walk on warm sands.."

So good luck out there people and happy Gaming.

and PS- Please don't use macro's.. and if you are, you suck

(if you are handicapped, then I could understand but you shouldn't anyway, use the foot pedals instead.)

ChaosWotan · September 2020

Buying footpedals to play ESO if you got a handicap is excessive (if you don't use them for other games).

ESO is not esport. So if anybody feel pain because of too much mouse clicking, then they are self-destructive if not using macros.

Zeni will only react if they get reports from others that you are instakilling people in PvP. If you don't program macros in that way, you'll be fine.

redlink1979 · September 2020

ToS is pretty clear regarding this:
"9. Your use of the services
(...) You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your access to or receipt, play or use of the Services. (...)"

ChaosWotan · September 2020

"ToS is pretty clear ..."

No, it's not. Not the section you are referring to at least.

What does "influence" mean in regard to software? Does it cover addons? I'm influenced by music when playing ESO. Should I get banned?

The point of these rules is that if some player tries to exploit the game, then Zeni has the means to ban him/her if necessary.

Using a macro to bypass a handicap doesn't give you an advantage compared to other gamers. It just gives you the same opportunity to play and win as other average people in ESO.

But if you apply macros in a way that turn you into a mini-god, get ready to be kicked from the game.

TineaCruris · September 2020

ZOS tends to make all their TOS agreements so vague and overly broad they can fit anything, ANYTHING, into one of their definitions of an offense. It's just how they chose to do the enforcement that matters.

I think everyone, probably even ZOS, would agree that a genuinely handicapped person is fine to use a macro. It's the able bodied people that shouldn't be using them.

ChaosWotan · September 2020

[snip] if you actually get pain from gaming and macros can help you, in a manner that doesn't give you an advantage, I bet all my Skooma gear that they will not react.

[edited for inappropriate content]

pauld1_ESO · September 2020

I know for a fact there are "top" PvP'rs who macro, no way they can do what they do without it.

Sanctum74 · September 2020

pauld1_ESO wrote: »

I know for a fact there are "top" PvP'rs who macro, no way they can do what they do without it.

I would love to see these facts you have, but in reality a top player using a macro would make him worse not better.

DMuehlhausen · September 2020

tgrippa wrote: »

Try foot pedal controllers, I use one for push to talk and it would work for light attacks.

To add to this. StealthSwitch 3 is the device I use. The basic one can have 5 footpedals connected. The issue I have with this device though is the pedals aren't weighted very well so it moves around a lot. I only have 1 so it's not that bad. It would be nice to have like 5 though and just bind skils or soemthing to them as well as the mouse.

mairwen85 · September 2020

Just to add to the options already mentioned:
https://bltt.org/keyboards-for-disabled-people/
https://abilitynet.org.uk/factsheets/keyboard-and-mouse-alternatives-and-adaptations

MJallday · September 2020

Post deleted

There is an incredible amount of misinformation on this thread . TLDR - Macros are fine - exploits are not.

Varana · September 2020

TineaCruris wrote: »

You can tell if the opponent utilized 10 skills in less than a second and manages to do it every time, to every opponent exactly the same, every time. That person is pushing two buttons in a combat, not the 10 buttons someone not using macro's is pushing in the same time period.

I'm guessing this (macro's) are having a much heavier load on the server than aoe's.

*sigh*

You cannot use 10 skills in a second, or even 2 skills in a second. Skills have a global cooldown of 1 second.
You can line up skills - if one has a delay of 2 seconds, another of 1 second, you can, in theory, land these three skills simultaneously - but you need to start casting 2 seconds before anything happens to the enemy.
In addition to the one skill per second, you can light attack and bash.
That's it.
Macros cannot circumvent that restriction. It doesn't matter how fast you click - physically, or helped by software - you cannot fire more than one skill every second.

Not saying that macros are not a thing. They probably are, sometimes (but way less often than assumed). But what you are describing is not the use of macros. It is either a deeper level of cheating, or (most probably) misreading the death recap on your part.

Merforum · September 2020

Why would there be any rules against using macros in PVE, especially while soloing, for someone like me who has arthritis? That is just idiotic.

But I would understand IN PVP ONLY, NOT allowing any macros that, for instance, did LA-skill-Bash with one keystroke/button.

BTW to the OP, IMO even as bad as Group Finder is these days, it is still less damaging to the body than running solo to farm dungeons.

Avoranti · September 2020

This conversation is interesting to me. This is exactly how bots work on console. I report every single one of them because I consider it a form of cheating to gain resources. It takes away from actual players.

idk · September 2020

ChaosWotan wrote: »

Buying footpedals to play ESO if you got a handicap is excessive (if you don't use them for other games).

ESO is not esport. So if anybody feel pain because of too much mouse clicking, then they are self-destructive if not using macros.

Zeni will only react if they get reports from others that you are instakilling people in PvP. If you don't program macros in that way, you'll be fine.

I would suggest caution before following this advice. If someone were to use macros and for some reason, the macro could not finish the macro would get hung up wherever it locked up. That would likely end up with the character stuck in some sort of animation. If I saw something weird like that I do a video grab and report it. I do not care how good the person was. I have reported a player I raided with when they had more health than they should because they were likely exploiting a TBS bug.

idk · September 2020

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

daemondamian wrote: »

TLDR: can I use a macro for hitting the same key several times in a row for solo PVE as a werewolf to help me avoid pain problems from doing it normally?

I have 2 werewolf alt characters that recently I've been using to solo farm Blackheart Haven for an Undaunted Unweaver Lightning Staff for another alt that I'm making a heavy staff attack build for.

I have adhesive capsulitis (frozen shoulder) in my left shoulder & pain problems with my right shoulder from being in a car accident. Doing certain things makes my right shoulder worse to the point sometimes that normal painkillers & anti-inflammatories don't work & I can't even play the game or do other normal household stuff like dishes.

Repeatedly using the mouse for LAs in werewolf form is one of the things that makes it worse - it's one of the reasons I don't run those alts in WW form much.

I know I can make a key on the keyboard a secondary control for LAs & made 'v' one but it's in too of an awkward position to use normally because then I have to move my hand back up to the movement & 1-5 keys.

If I could use a macro that made hitting one key repeat 3-5 light attacks in a row then possibly I could play more often in WW form & even keep solo farming BH.

But if I could & did make one & used it would I be opening myself up for a ban?

Also I have been running BH with my healer in pug groups when it's been the pledge & have lost count of how many runs I've done. Only one time did someone else get the UU LS but must have wanted to keep it. The only other char I soloed BH on was my magblade using hindrance potion, hist sap etc & it was not something I would ever choose to or possibly could do again.

They say it's against the rules on here. But I've never seen an official post from an ZoS employee confirming that is against the terms of service. I've asked around too. So it doesn't seem like anyone on the board is aware of one either.

I can tell you this: if you do use them (and I'm not recommending that you do) you certainly won't be the only one. Macro use is widespread on this game and many many people use them. I have also yet to meet a single person who was banned for it. So if using macros are against the rules - it seems to me like they are very lax on enforcing it.

You can find a number of sources about macros on this thread, mostly found the last time somebody asked me to produce ZOS quotes.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460348/macro-in-action/

Thanks to you and Maiwren both for the link. But from what I see - it says macros you create from using gaming mice and controllers aren't against the Terms of Service. Just macros you create from third party software - which I guess in this context means addons.

So it seems to me that macros themselves are basically allowed. Because I don't see a whole lot of difference in creating a macro though addon software or making them through software that comes with your gaming mouse. So this would probably explain why macro use is so widespread on this game and I have yet to see or hear about anyone actually being banned for using them.

The software for mice and keyboards where macros can be created is third party software and as such is in violation of the ToS. Zos does not make an exception for them.

So why does ZoS single out gaming keyboards and mice in that comment Maiwren linked as being ok to use in the context of macros?

A lot of gaming mouses these days have extensive software to create macros

Zos does not permit the use of macros in combat, period. It is irrelevant what 3rd party application is used to create the macro.

The issue is how a player chooses to use the software provided, not that a mouse comes with basic software for creating a macro.

This isn't quite true to my understanding the part which ZOS specifically bans in the TOS is "multiple actions via 1 key press". For example a macro which did key_down, key_up and nothing else (so that the ability fired as soon as you pressed the key if you were slow to lift your fingers) I belive is considered ok as one key press = 1 action still. However I don't use macros so haven't ever sought clarity.

I suggest reading the title and OP. Really the title says it all as it becomes clear OP is asking about using a macro to execute multiple attacks with one press of the button.

Ri_Khan · September 2020

You can easily set up a macro to light attack (with varied delay in order to make it harder to detect) after each skill key press in order to "automate" animation canceling. I would bet loads of money there's a ton of players doing exactly this.

idk · September 2020

Merforum wrote: »

Why would there be any rules against using macros in PVE, especially while soloing, for someone like me who has arthritis? That is just idiotic.

But I would understand IN PVP ONLY, NOT allowing any macros that, for instance, did LA-skill-Bash with one keystroke/button.

BTW to the OP, IMO even as bad as Group Finder is these days, it is still less damaging to the body than running solo to farm dungeons.

@Merforum There is competitive PvE, even solo. That is what the leaderboards are about. However, just doing solo quests few might even notice. However, it is still a risk.

Corrected my mistype

idk · September 2020

Ri_Khan wrote: »

You can easily set up a macro to light attack (with varied delay in order to make it harder to detect) after each skill key press in order to "automate" animation canceling. I would bet loads of money there's a ton of players doing exactly this.

The question is what happens if the target dies on the second LA and the macro still has another LA to perform? The character should be stuck, unable to use any other skill, until that macro can complete. I am sure some players do use macros and it is why I am set up to grab the last few minutes of video from the game when I see something weird. It is up to Zos to sort out what happened.

ChaosWotan · September 2020

" ... If I saw something weird like that I do a video grab and report it. I do not care how good the person was. I have reported a player I raided with ..."

Take note you handicapped "exploiters": you should endure pain and maybe increase it too instead of being so "immoral" and unsporty.

If the esport police reports you to Zeni, first remember to smile for the camera, and then get a doctor to verify your condition, if Zeni ever contacts you.

But as long as you are not on the PvE leaderboards and your k/d ratio in PvP isn't 5313764/0, you will be alright, no worries. The devs are busy chasing performance issues. They are not daedra running after sick people who want to enjoy their game.

Merforum · September 2020

idk wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Why would there be any rules against using macros in PVE, especially while soloing, for someone like me who has arthritis? That is just idiotic.

But I would understand IN PVP ONLY, NOT allowing any macros that, for instance, did LA-skill-Bash with one keystroke/button.

BTW to the OP, IMO even as bad as Group Finder is these days, it is still less damaging to the body than running solo to farm dungeons.

@Merforum There is competitive PvE, even solo. That is what the leaderboards are about. However, just doing solo quests few might even notice. However, it is still a risk.

Corrected my mistype

I don't think someone with arthritis can do those anyway. Obviously if someone is cheating on leaderboards and stuff like that they should be dealt with on case by case basis.

red_emu · September 2020

I believe it was explained by Gina in the past, that using gaming keyboards and mouses with macro programmable buttons is not prohibited, as it still requires human input.

External software to create a bot or automate the gameplay with no human input is against ToS.

I personally have all abilities assigned to 5 buttons on my gaming mouse. My buttons 1 and 5 also do a light attack cancel, because I'm too forgetful when it comes to light attack weaving. The only advantage it gives me is a practical one as I'm not bypassing any game mechanics and to be fair, half the times the lag gets my buttons confused and I end up dying because I'm stuck in heavy attack animation 😂 maybe I should just go back to doing it manually.

agegarton · September 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

The part of the Terms of Service that governs this is section 9, "Your use of the Services". The specific paragraph is this:

You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your access to or receipt, play or use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of ‘bots’, “speed hacks”, “deep-link”, “page-scrape”, “robot”, “spider”, algorithm or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, “mirroring”) the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to access, receive, play or use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax.

I have made bold the bit that "might" cover a macro keyboard. I'd personally say that this is less than crystal clear, especially as the majority of the paragraph is clearly aimed at "bot"-type activity as opposed to a single player using his/her keyboard as it was intended. However, I would er on the side of caution and not use macros.

I wonder if ZOS_GinaBruno and/or ZOS_JessicaFolsom could provide a little bit of clarity? Is the above para intended to encompass an individual player using his keyboard with a macro function as it was intended, making that a breach of the ToS? Would be helpful to be definitive.

We already covered this in the earlier conversation. This thread discusses it, particularly this comment: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1826830/#Comment_1826830

Yes, it does apply.

With respect, I don't believe that a thread from 2015, with a version of the Terms of Service that have been update multiple times since, with comments from a mod (not directly from ZoS), really "covers it".

I expect the view from ZoS will be that macro keyboards (for example) should be covered under the current ToS (as I already said), but as I also said in my post it is not completely clear and people are right to query it under the circumstances.

Personally, I think the terms are just not very well worded.

Rungar · September 2020

for me its not a question of whether people macro or not. We know they do and its likely as rampant as the available technology.

eso has a well known exploitable design and that's the problem i have with it. Take away weaving the the macro advantage goes to pretty much zero in this game.

VaranisArano · September 2020

agegarton wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

The part of the Terms of Service that governs this is section 9, "Your use of the Services". The specific paragraph is this:

You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your access to or receipt, play or use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of ‘bots’, “speed hacks”, “deep-link”, “page-scrape”, “robot”, “spider”, algorithm or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, “mirroring”) the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to access, receive, play or use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax.

I have made bold the bit that "might" cover a macro keyboard. I'd personally say that this is less than crystal clear, especially as the majority of the paragraph is clearly aimed at "bot"-type activity as opposed to a single player using his/her keyboard as it was intended. However, I would er on the side of caution and not use macros.

I wonder if ZOS_GinaBruno and/or ZOS_JessicaFolsom could provide a little bit of clarity? Is the above para intended to encompass an individual player using his keyboard with a macro function as it was intended, making that a breach of the ToS? Would be helpful to be definitive.

We already covered this in the earlier conversation. This thread discusses it, particularly this comment: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1826830/#Comment_1826830

Yes, it does apply.

With respect, I don't believe that a thread from 2015, with a version of the Terms of Service that have been update multiple times since, with comments from a mod (not directly from ZoS), really "covers it".

I expect the view from ZoS will be that macro keyboards (for example) should be covered under the current ToS (as I already said), but as I also said in my post it is not completely clear and people are right to query it under the circumstances.

Personally, I think the terms are just not very well worded.

ZOS doesn't have to say "its still not allowed in 2020" for it not to be allowed in 2020.

But I was too quick to say that the TOS applies as the quote actually references a much clearer source: the Code of Conduct.

5.1 You are forbidden from using any unapproved third-party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic used to change the game play experience on a ZeniMax game, Service, forum, or other games or services provided by ZeniMax, including the distribution of said programs via ZeniMax Services, sites, forums, communities, etc. This would include but is not limited to using or distributing speed hacks, aim bots, mouse controllers, spam bots, automated game play devices, etc. Third party applications are defined as any program, application or script written by an individual, company, corporation, or private party not employed by or contracted to perform services by ZeniMax.

The "change the game play experience" is precisely the same language that ZOS_MollyH references to say that keyboard macros are not allowed. That language hasn't changed, so there's no reason to assume that ZOS' stance would have either. Her quote: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1826830/#Comment_1826830

I should hope that's clear enough.