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many players are unhappy with change to rapids then why are these changes making it through the pts
Recent
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I'm curious to know if the majority player base are even being considered when making these huge changes. In my personal opinion i think it's hugely unfair to be robbed of a skill many of my pve alts had for years btw. I have 13 level 50s and i dont even what to look at what ones lost their rapids.
This is extremely unfair to take something i did training quests for and just change it on me without my consent.
Such a LOW act on zos behalf to manipulate players to buy the pvp skill lines so all for the store sad
Edited by Recent on August 26, 2020 10:48PM This is extremely unfair to take something i did training quests for and just change it on me without my consent.
Such a LOW act on zos behalf to manipulate players to buy the pvp skill lines so all for the store sad
26
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redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Did you know there is a new mount coming to the store that allows for a passenger. That's really nice when someone doesn't have a fast mount themselves. You can also visit the store to buy skill lines and riding lessons.
Convenient timing.
It's quite clear that this change had very little to do with helping players and more to do with creating an inconvenience that you can bypass using the crown store. As much as they say that it was to help players get vigor, they could have done that without taking away rapids at the same time (if that indeed was their actual goal).48 -
Guyle✭✭✭✭✭Cuz ZOS figured they can monetize the skill line more if they make rapids harder to get. Also, ppl are more likely to buy the mount upgrade tokens from the crown store if they want to avoid pvping or buying the entire skill line. Just another step in the long line of extortionist level tactics they've employed the last few years.31 -
Recent✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cuz ZOS figured they can monetize the skill line more if they make rapids harder to get. Also, ppl are more likely to buy the mount upgrade tokens from the crown store if they want to avoid pvping or buying the entire skill line. Just another step in the long line of extortionist level tactics they've employed the last few years.
Yes i finally agree it's just for monetary gain but after all the poor server performances etc it feels like being kicked while we're down type cenario...it's seriously shameless.11 -
Guyle✭✭✭✭✭Cuz ZOS figured they can monetize the skill line more if they make rapids harder to get. Also, ppl are more likely to buy the mount upgrade tokens from the crown store if they want to avoid pvping or buying the entire skill line. Just another step in the long line of extortionist level tactics they've employed the last few years.
Yes i finally agree it's just for monetary gain but after all the poor server performances etc it feels like being kicked while we're down type cenario...it's seriously shameless.
Absolutely, if we had anything to show for all of their shameless money grabs, it'd be one thing, but instead, we have a game that runs worse than it ever has before, and keeps getting worse every time they try to make it better. If they put any of that money back into the game it'd be tolerable, but as it is it seems they put less than the bare minimum back into the game.13 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭People on the forums are a tiny minority.
Vigor is an almost essential combat skill for certain classes. Rapids is never more than a non-combat convenience/QoL skill for anybody.
I've got a lot of characters and only one of them has ever used rapids. It's okay, but most of the time the distance I have to travel before interacting with something (like an enemy or a crafting node) isn't worth the hassle of mounting and dismounting, let alone messing with my skillbars to equip rapids in the first place. More often than not, I just run places. If I have to get somewhere far away, I use a wayshrine.18 -
Zephiran23✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »People on the forums are a tiny minority.
Vigor is an almost essential combat skill for certain classes. Rapids is never more than a non-combat convenience/QoL skill for anybody.
I've got a lot of characters and only one of them has ever used rapids. It's okay, but most of the time the distance I have to travel before interacting with something (like an enemy or a crafting node) isn't worth the hassle of mounting and dismounting, let alone messing with my skillbars to equip rapids in the first place. More often than not, I just run places. If I have to get somewhere far away, I use a wayshrine.
Are you playing on console? If playing on PC addons can take care of swapping Rapids for you very easily.0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zephiran23 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »People on the forums are a tiny minority.
Vigor is an almost essential combat skill for certain classes. Rapids is never more than a non-combat convenience/QoL skill for anybody.
I've got a lot of characters and only one of them has ever used rapids. It's okay, but most of the time the distance I have to travel before interacting with something (like an enemy or a crafting node) isn't worth the hassle of mounting and dismounting, let alone messing with my skillbars to equip rapids in the first place. More often than not, I just run places. If I have to get somewhere far away, I use a wayshrine.
Are you playing on console? If playing on PC addons can take care of swapping Rapids for you very easily.
Yes, I'm on console. I actually find the time spent mounting/dismounting is the bigger issue though. Half the time when I do mount I find myself dismounting to interact with something only a few steps later. That said, I also tend to run the steed mundus and a skill that grants major expedition, so I do understand the value of speed boosts.
Regardless of the convenience of rapids though, it's still just convenience, while vigor can actually affect combat viability.2 -
thegreat_one✭✭✭✭Seriously if you can't find a zerg to ride with and make the AP to get Rapids. Well thats not Zos's fault.
Getting that far along the skill line takes an hour tops.
Get the 20% AP bonus from killing a Delve boss and join a zerg.
Repair Keep walls for AP as they upgrade over time and will need to be repaired.
Do kill players quests, YOU DONT HAVE TO GET THE KILL! your zerg's kill counts towards that,
Greyhost has zergs all the time regardless of your faction.
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code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Vigor is an almost essential combat skill for certain classes. Rapids is never more than a non-combat convenience/QoL skill for anybody.
Why does it have to be Vigor-vs-Rapids?
Original:
Rapids at Assault 2
Vigor at Assault 5
Current:
Vigor at Assault 2
Rapids at Assault 5
But why not just do:
Vigor at Assault 2
Rapids at Assault 3
They want to make Vigor more accessible? Sure. Make it the first skill. Make it Assault 2. That's cool. But why does Rapids have to take on Vigor's old requirement of Assault 5? They could've made it Assault 3, so it's just slightly harder to get than before and still reasonably accessible for fresh new characters.
By saying that Vigor was too inaccessible, ZOS is admitting that Assault 5 is too high a requirement for new characters. So if Assault 5 is too burdensome for Vigor, why is it not too burdensome for Rapids?
They could easily make both Vigor and Rapids accessible. Saying that Rapids' inaccessibility is a requirement for Vigor's accessibility is a bogus argument.Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
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- In Defiance of Death and No Rest for the Wicked
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- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
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- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
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tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Vigor is an almost essential combat skill for certain classes. Rapids is never more than a non-combat convenience/QoL skill for anybody.
Why does it have to be Vigor-vs-Rapids?
Original:
Rapids at Assault 2
Vigor at Assault 5
Current:
Vigor at Assault 2
Rapids at Assault 5
But why not just do:
Vigor at Assault 2
Rapids at Assault 3
They want to make Vigor more accessible? Sure. Make it the first skill. Make it Assault 2. That's cool. But why does Rapids have to take on Vigor's old requirement of Assault 5? They could've made it Assault 3, so it's just slightly harder to get than before and still reasonably accessible for fresh new characters.
By saying that Vigor was too inaccessible, ZOS is admitting that Assault 5 is too high a requirement for new characters. So if Assault 5 is too burdensome for Vigor, why is it not too burdensome for Rapids?
They could easily make both Vigor and Rapids accessible. Saying that Rapids' inaccessibility is a requirement for Vigor's accessibility is a bogus argument.
agreed.... and this is why myself (and many others) are leaning towards the change being a change to increase monetization, which is terrible.The Unshattered - Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Xalvakka's Scourge - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - The Brilliant - Moth Trusted - The Just - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger71,345 achievement points15 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Vigor is an almost essential combat skill for certain classes. Rapids is never more than a non-combat convenience/QoL skill for anybody.
Why does it have to be Vigor-vs-Rapids?
Original:
Rapids at Assault 2
Vigor at Assault 5
Current:
Vigor at Assault 2
Rapids at Assault 5
But why not just do:
Vigor at Assault 2
Rapids at Assault 3
They want to make Vigor more accessible? Sure. Make it the first skill. Make it Assault 2. That's cool. But why does Rapids have to take on Vigor's old requirement of Assault 5? They could've made it Assault 3, so it's just slightly harder to get than before and still reasonably accessible for fresh new characters.
By saying that Vigor was too inaccessible, ZOS is admitting that Assault 5 is too high a requirement for new characters. So if Assault 5 is too burdensome for Vigor, why is it not too burdensome for Rapids?
They could easily make both Vigor and Rapids accessible. Saying that Rapids' inaccessibility is a requirement for Vigor's accessibility is a bogus argument.
I'm not really arguing about what ZOS could have done instead. What I am saying is that I understand and agree with their decision to make vigor more accessible, and that I also understand why they probably didn't consider moving rapids to be a major sacrifice (because it's one of the least useful active skills in the entire game, from a combat perspective).
Furthermore, I also understand why all of the forum whining hasn't changed their minds, because it certainly hasn't done anything to change mine. Rapids is still just a convenience skill, nothing more.Edited by the1andonlyskwex on August 26, 2020 11:43PM6 -
scorpius2k1✭✭✭✭✭
✭agreed.... and this is why myself (and many others) are leaning towards the change being a change to increase monetization, which is terrible.
But...is anyone really surprised at this point? This is why so many of us complain at the small and "no big deal" things that are being monetized more and more. It's really not hard to see the pattern. Sure, money has to be made but surely there are better ways that benefit the company and players better. The balance is completely tilted in one direction, it's just how sneaky companies can be and injecting mutilple monetization funnels into a product without getting too much backlash for it. They have to tread carefully, and they know it but they always get away with it because we the consumer continually pay for it, willingly and often blindly. This is what "gaming" has become now and it's sad imho, hence why my signature says what it does which is holding more and more true every day.🌎 PC/NA
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joerginger✭✭✭✭✭scorpius2k1 wrote: »They have to tread carefully, and they know it but they always get away with it because we the consumer continually pay for it, willingly and often blindly. .
And this is where there is a difference this time for me. I did put up with the neverending bugs and the decrease in both performance and quality. But having to buy the assault skill line on at least 17 characters or having to grind PvP for weeks just to avoid wasting time because getting anywhere has become so much slower? This is definitely not worth that much money and since I'm already talking about time and money: the resource that is infinitely more valuable is of course time.
It's a real pity that this kind of monetization has killed all fun I had in this game. The subscription on my main account is still running for a couple of months, but the other account's has been canceled and I doubt I'll ever get back into the habit of spending money in this game. That's all I have to say on this topic.
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Red_Feather✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The public test server gives an overwhelming amount of feedback on things and most of that feedback is completely ignored.
It feels like PTS patches are a train on rails and just going through the motions of asking for feedback but it'll never change direction.
Edited by Red_Feather on August 27, 2020 12:04AM14 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »(because it's one of the least useful active skills in the entire game, from a combat perspective).
Heavens forbid that there are more aspects to this game than just combat.Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:Personal best scores:- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
- Maelstrom Arena: 600526 (NA)
- Blackrose Prison: 99274 (EU) (Unchained)
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- Halls of Fabrication: 220708 (NA) (Tick-Tock Tormentor #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12)
- Asylum Sanctorium: 114957 (NA) (Immortal Redeemer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10)
- Cloudrest: 131256 (NA) (Gryphon Heart #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Sunspire: 250866 (EU) (Godslayer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Kyne's Aegis: 235841 (EU) (Dawnbringer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8)
Dungeon trifectas:- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
- Apex Predator and Pure Lunacy
- Depths Defier and Relentless Raider
- Defanged the Devourer and Nature's Wrath
- In Defiance of Death and No Rest for the Wicked
- Bane of Thorns and True Genius
- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
- Zero Regrets and Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy
- Fist of Tava and Invader's Bane
- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
Extended Journal Add-Ons: Item Set Browser ― Loot Log ― Character Knowledge ― Collectibles Tracker ― RaidificatorPC/Console Add-Ons: Combat Alerts ― Group Buff PanelsOther Add-Ons: Deconstruction Junk Marker ― Purge Tracker ― Asylum Status Panel ― Smart Looter ― Improved Companion Rapport Information20 -
ZaroktheImmortal✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS seem to make a lot of changes that upset people...it's almost as if they didn't listen to their playerbase.11 -
ThePedge✭✭✭✭✭IT TAKES A COUPLE OF HOURS, JUST DO IT.
Do you know how long I had to farm Fang Lair for a Caluurions inferno staff? Do you know how long I had to farm vDSA for an Inferno Staff, Bow, and I still don't have Duel Weild.
99% of this game is PvE. Everyone who enjoys PvP has to spend more time doing stuff they don't enjoy, than you will have to for Rapids.
For the days you spend arguing on the forum you could have it on all of your characters by now.6 -
ZaroktheImmortal✭✭✭✭✭
✭IT TAKES A COUPLE OF HOURS, JUST DO IT.
Do you know how long I had to farm Fang Lair for a Caluurions inferno staff? Do you know how long I had to farm vDSA for an Inferno Staff, Bow, and I still don't have Duel Weild.
99% of this game is PvE. Everyone who enjoys PvP has to spend more time doing stuff they don't enjoy, than you will have to for Rapids.
For the days you spend arguing on the forum you could have it on all of your characters by now.
Ah the old 'it takes a couple of hours' argument...yeah no. It takes more than that. And as I've said several times today it takes forever to get around cyrodil without rapids. And this change screws over pvpers as well since any new toons or new pvpers will have to take forever to get around an area that already takes ages to travel around.9 -
ZaroktheImmortal✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's almost as if the people arguing that the changes are good are all reading from the same script 'oh it only takes this time. Oh you can earn so many points so quickly' yeah....try getting around cyrodil the main place for levelling it on a new toon with no rapids hell any toon without rapids even with rapids it's a lot to travel around.5 -
barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Red_Feather wrote: »The public test server gives an overwhelming amount of feedback on things and most of that feedback is completely ignored.
It feels like PTS patches are a train on rails and just going through the motions of asking for feedback but it'll never change direction.
There is a difference between Being Ignored vs the company listening to the input, then evaluating that input into THEIR concept and vision of the game (Which, by the way, Is the bottom line) and then deciding against using the input.
Just because they say 'No' does Not mean the input was ignored
If there is a flaw in the system, it is that the player does not know Why changes are made.
IMHO
Edited by barney2525 on August 27, 2020 10:28AM2 -
ZaroktheImmortal✭✭✭✭✭
✭Also by the argument it only takes a short time then why was there a need to swap them to begin with? If it's so easy to level why not encourage it to level faster so people have to level it for the other ability? So by the very argument people are making for the change they may as well kept it as is since it's soooo easy to level it up super fast.7 -
Sgrug✭✭✭✭✭IT TAKES A COUPLE OF HOURS, JUST DO IT.
Do you know how long I had to farm Fang Lair for a Caluurions inferno staff? Do you know how long I had to farm vDSA for an Inferno Staff, Bow, and I still don't have Duel Weild.
99% of this game is PvE. Everyone who enjoys PvP has to spend more time doing stuff they don't enjoy, than you will have to for Rapids.
For the days you spend arguing on the forum you could have it on all of your characters by now.
Then why didn't people just do Vigor? It took only a couple of hours, they should have just done it per your logic, this should not even be an issue and the change was never needed.19 -
red_emu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Can you believe it? Rapids! On your own front bar! What are you going to do? 😳😳😳PC - EU:
Falathren Noctis - AD MagNecro
Falathren - AD StamSorc
Falathren Eryndaer - AD StamDen
Falathren Irimion - AD MagPlar
Talagan Falathren - AD StamDK
Falathren Infernis - AD MagDK
Your-Ex - AD MagBlade6 -
Sgrug✭✭✭✭✭barney2525 wrote: »Red_Feather wrote: »The public test server gives an overwhelming amount of feedback on things and most of that feedback is completely ignored.
It feels like PTS patches are a train on rails and just going through the motions of asking for feedback but it'll never change direction.
There is a difference between Being Ignored vs the company listening to the input, then evaluating that input into THEIR concept and vision of the game (Which, by the way, Is the bottom line) and then deciding against using the input.
Just because they say 'No' does Not mean the input was ignored
If there is a flaw in the system, it is that the player does not know Why changes are made.
IMHO
When a business does not give you the reason for a change or lack of change or gives a reason that rings hollow it usually is because telling the customer the real reason would HURT the bottom line.Edited by Sgrug on August 27, 2020 11:12AM8 -
SlimeBro1✭✭✭✭I'm curious to know if the majority player base are even being considered when making these huge changes. In my personal opinion i think it's hugely unfair to be robbed of a skill many of my pve alts had for years btw. I have 13 level 50s and i dont even what to look at what ones lost their rapids.
This is extremely unfair to take something i did training quests for and just change it on me without my consent.
Such a LOW act on zos behalf to manipulate players to buy the pvp skill lines so all for the store sad
The same reason why all of the feedback regarding the vamp rework and eviscerate changes got ignored.2 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
agreed.... and this is why myself (and many others) are leaning towards the change being a change to increase monetization, which is terrible.
Leaning?
I have flat out tripped and fallen face down on the monetization angle. That is the only thing that explains this.
1. They could have moved Rapids to some other Skill Line in order to move Vigor up
2. They could have put Vigor at 3
3. They could have put Rapids at 3
4. They could have grandfathered it in. One of my characters who is at L4 in Assault can still use the skill. So, I know that could work.
Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"10 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They could have grandfathered it in. One of my characters who is at L4 in Assault can still use the skill. So, I know that could work.
You know that it could work because for every previous skill reordering that was done in the past (and there have been multiple), people who had spent the skill point retained the skill even if it was moved to a position that was out of reach for that character.
From my perspective, it looks like what they did here was that they ran a script through the database to refund the skill point for any character for which it would no longer qualify. Except they messed this up and the refund only applied to characters below Assault rank 4, rather than at or below Assault rank 4. My characters that are at Assault 4 didn't get the forced-refund, and it looks like this happened to everyone else who had Assault rank 4 characters.
Again, this kind of forced-refund for a skill reposition had never been done before, and the sloppy manner in which this refund was handled makes it pretty clear to me that this refund was a separate action that was taken.
What's more damning is ZOS's lack of reaction on this matter. This change was first revealed in the U27 combat preview thread, prior to PTS, and there, it pretty much monopolized the discussion for the first few pages of the thread. And then during PTS itself, countless threads were made about this change. There is no way that ZOS is oblivious to the controversy of this change. Yet they failed to change it or to even say anything about it. Not a single word defending the change or even acknowledging the controversy of this change. Why not? Probably because they realize that what they're doing is indefensible. So better to just keep their mouths shut.Edited by code65536 on August 30, 2020 12:29AMNightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:Personal best scores:- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
- Maelstrom Arena: 600526 (NA)
- Blackrose Prison: 99274 (EU) (Unchained)
- Maw of Lorkhaj: 165227 (EU)
- Halls of Fabrication: 220708 (NA) (Tick-Tock Tormentor #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12)
- Asylum Sanctorium: 114957 (NA) (Immortal Redeemer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10)
- Cloudrest: 131256 (NA) (Gryphon Heart #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Sunspire: 250866 (EU) (Godslayer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Kyne's Aegis: 235841 (EU) (Dawnbringer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8)
Dungeon trifectas:- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
- Apex Predator and Pure Lunacy
- Depths Defier and Relentless Raider
- Defanged the Devourer and Nature's Wrath
- In Defiance of Death and No Rest for the Wicked
- Bane of Thorns and True Genius
- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
- Zero Regrets and Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy
- Fist of Tava and Invader's Bane
- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
Extended Journal Add-Ons: Item Set Browser ― Loot Log ― Character Knowledge ― Collectibles Tracker ― RaidificatorPC/Console Add-Ons: Combat Alerts ― Group Buff PanelsOther Add-Ons: Deconstruction Junk Marker ― Purge Tracker ― Asylum Status Panel ― Smart Looter ― Improved Companion Rapport Information9 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭We provide ZOS with feedback based on the PTS.
ZOS is not obligated to change their plans based on our feedback, even apparently overwhelmingly negative feedback.
We all understand that, right?
That's why we have to regrind for perfected VMA weapons, among other things.
Well, if we didn't know that, we best learn it before ZOS figures out their response to the Cyrodiil AOE tests, because I can't see major gameplay changes to AOEs not getting overwhelmingly negative feedback.9