Move Leads out of PVP areas

AlnilamE · August 2020

josiahva wrote: »

I was lead farming in IC on my tank on EP....I hooked up with a group of AD and tanked the bosses for them...was actually a lot of fun having to avoid friendly fire, definately a different tanking experience.

As a tank, people generally leave you alone...they can't easily kill you and you are no threat to them.

That sounds like a lot of fun!

OP, it sounds like you want this build for trials. Have you considered getting your guild to go into IC with you? I'm in a PvE guild and we went into IC a couple of evenings and managed to get the leads while avoiding other players and/or trying to look intimidating because we had numbers!

Also, if the IC version you are in is being farmed by a different alliance and you don't have the numbers, consider going to the other one.

VaranisArano · August 2020

Leads seem pretty equal opportunity to me: everyone has something they hate doing in order to get leads, whether its fishing, grinding dungeons, PVP, etc.

Syldras · August 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

Leads seem pretty equal opportunity to me: everyone has something they hate doing in order to get leads, whether its fishing, grinding dungeons, PVP, etc.

It's equal, although I'd prefer not to be forced to do things I hate during my freetime

So I really think it'd be better to be able to get leads from different sources and not make them exclusively PvP or fishing or whatever. You already have that in a few zones, that they can (with luck) drop from more or less everything.

furiouslog wrote: »

I'd assume that you'd respond with "I will never like PvP and it's pointless for them to try to get me to like it". And I thought the same thing until I started really PvPing more, and going in with organized groups on Discord. You can still be terrible at PvP, but if you get in a decent sized group, it's actually fun even with the gankers because you can accomplish stuff. And then you start getting better, and you make builds, and before you know it you are PvPing on a regular basis.

There are people who just aren't into that thing, who don't care to communicate with other people much, or don't have the time to play regularly because they work or lot or have a small child.

Pauwer · August 2020

I don't like doing dungeons or killing world bosses or run around some isle killing random monsters for the leads. I've got extra crowns though, wink wink...

kargen27 · August 2020

The antiquity system was created to get players back into content they might not have visited in a long while. Leads are scattered across all kinds of activities to get players to do those activities. It makes sense that there would be leads in Imperial City. Also makes sense there are leads for battlegrounds. ZoS wants us repeating content we have already done or trying content we might have been avoiding. Their end goal isn't to give us lots of cool stuff. That is the means to an end. Their goal is to keep the game alive. New content, players repeating content and players participating in a wide variety of activities is what will keep the game alive.

MrBrownstone · August 2020

This is your problem, you split the game like PvE and PvP while developers don't see it that way (and many players including me) I sometimes do PvP content and sometimes do PvE content. Some people prefer to stick only one of them and they start to think that these are two different games. No, PvP and PvE are both ESO and ESO has leads so leads will be split to every part of the game, PvP is no exception.

Even if we agree on the part that PvE and PvP ESO are completely different games, it's still a you problem because it's your decision to farm a PvP item to have a very niche use of it in PvE. You want the PvP item, you'll be forced to play PvP. You can't have everything you want if you don't play every part of the game. It's that simple, you'll not be entitled to anything. If I see tons of players with the Malacath Ring then it's not that hard to get apparently

relentless_turnip · August 2020

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Off tanks don’t need damage, plus Malacath disables crit... which includes crit healing. Tanks definitely want their self heals to crit.

It doesn't effect your ability to crit heal👍

Tomarkhos · August 2020

furiouslog wrote: »

Tomarkhos wrote: »

I am asking for ZOS to please move leads out of PVP areas. I have been grinding for the Malacath Power Core with no luck, continue to just get ganked, or even when I am not getting ganked the bosses are being farmed by other alliances and I cannot participate without being crushed by the members of the opposing alliance. I have little hope for trying to fight the boss solo as it is but the added complication of other players opposing me from this has got me feeling hopeless. I have no desire for PVP and don't really feel there should be a need to make someone experience content they don't want. If ZOS will not move it out of a PVP area can we at least get a version for PVE, perhaps this lead can drop in two different zones, one PVP and one PVE so those of us that choose not to PVP are not forced to do so. I have tried solo, on 3 different alliances, and when that failed I started joining groups. Those groups however devolved into just PVP with the goal of killing other players to the extent that they did not stop to farm the bosses. Or the group I was with got too popular and then gets rolled by another opposing larger group. In the end, I have spent hours on an activity I do not enjoy. I don't see why this can't drop in a PVE zone, or at least have multiple drops. PVP players can buy with gold or AP monster helms, keeping them from having to play content they may not choose to do, perhaps PVE can get this same consideration? I am at my wit's end here, players are infinitely crueler than any mob I have found in this game and PVP is so toxic in this game that I just really would prefer not to do it.

Sincerely an unhappy subscriber.

Speaking as someone who hated PvP for about a year before changing my tune, I don't think that cleaving the two communities is a solution. If you are a solo player, and are not part of a guild or anything, I get how it's frustrating. But one of the reasons ZOS has this kind of overlap between PvE/PvP is to get players to do both to maximize player engagement with the game - that motivation needs to be acknowledged and taken as an assumption.

I'd assume that you'd respond with "I will never like PvP and it's pointless for them to try to get me to like it". And I thought the same thing until I started really PvPing more, and going in with organized groups on Discord. You can still be terrible at PvP, but if you get in a decent sized group, it's actually fun even with the gankers because you can accomplish stuff. And then you start getting better, and you make builds, and before you know it you are PvPing on a regular basis.

You just have not been in a situation where you were successful at getting stuff done. Which will ultimately make you happier: improbably trying to change ZOS's business model, or finding people who will help you succeed?

I think you missed the part where I said I was PVPing as early as this morning. I have PVPed. I have a veteran rank. I had to so that I could get warhorn and caltrops and the like. I don't mean to sound rude...but its the atmosphere. I just really find the PVP people in general (not all) to be toxic. Also, can we all not admit how much of a lag fest PVP really is? No thank you. I have PVPed and played the game longer than 3 years now with over 1000 CP levels accumulated. It's not my cup of tea. I choose not to PVP, please respect that. Just as I am asking ZOS too, it's not you, it's me. I won't go as far as asking to remove PVP or have two separate games because I realize that the players like yourself that do double duty are an asset to the player community and you should not have to pick and choose, you should have a choice. Which is why I am asking: Can we please have the PVP leads also drop in PVE as well.

AshfieldLad · August 2020

Don’t play at peak- people are looking for people, play at night- log into ic see what colour the districts are, swap to that faction char, either join a group or follow a group around. Mostly people are tel var farming off peak not ganking. I had a problem with this lead at first but ended up getting it on a lvl 21 necro in full cp off peak when I couldn’t on my main pve sorc 500cp at peak.

Dojohoda · August 2020

It is unlikely ESO will moved the lead out, so keep trying to find a group that is farming bosses.
Best wishes to you!

Tomarkhos · August 2020

MrBrownstone wrote: »

This is your problem, you split the game like PvE and PvP while developers don't see it that way (and many players including me) I sometimes do PvP content and sometimes do PvE content. Some people prefer to stick only one of them and they start to think that these are two different games. No, PvP and PvE are both ESO and ESO has leads so leads will be split to every part of the game, PvP is no exception.

Even if we agree on the part that PvE and PvP ESO are completely different games, it's still a you problem because it's your decision to farm a PvP item to have a very niche use of it in PvE. You want the PvP item, you'll be forced to play PvP. You can't have everything you want if you don't play every part of the game. It's that simple, you'll not be entitled to anything. If I see tons of players with the Malacath Ring then it's not that hard to get apparently

"entitlement"... you guys like to really throw that word around. But you fail to lack an understanding of the word. It means to have special treatment. PVP gets plenty of special treatment I have already mentioned. I am not asking for special treatment, I am asking for equal treatment. If you really believed what you preached you would be outraged over gold vendors or the ability to buy overland sets from PVP vendors in unassociated zones. Your arguments are not logical at all and bring nothing to the table other then "I feel" statements. It's great that YOU feel that way, I don't want to make you feel a certain way one way or the other, can you not have that same respect please for others? It would hurt the game in zero way to have this lead drop in second zone as well as the PVP zone. No one has made a Succesful argument that I have seen otherwise that would convince me. I am PVPing now as I even type this, it's not fun. Right now no one is grouping in all 3 alliances, I know because right now I have 3 toons in 3 different alliances asking for groups to farm leads and no one wants too. Which is fine, but can I please be left alone to farm the lead, and if that is too much to ask for because it feels game-breaking, move the lead to a place where farming is not a distraction.

dinokstrunz · August 2020

If anything I hope future leads appear come from both PvE and PvP.

Tomarkhos · August 2020

AshfieldLad wrote: »

Don’t play at peak- people are looking for people, play at night- log into ic see what colour the districts are, swap to that faction char, either join a group or follow a group around. Mostly people are tel var farming off peak not ganking. I had a problem with this lead at first but ended up getting it on a lvl 21 necro in full cp off peak when I couldn’t on my main pve sorc 500cp at peak.

I tried that today. I set aside a second day now to do nothing but wake in the wee hours of the morning at 3am to shoot for this in the hopes there would not be a heavy server population. Still no luck. I also just feel like the amount of time I spent farming this lead due to other players blocking progress compared to my other leads is staggering.

furiouslog · August 2020

Tomarkhos wrote: »

I think you missed the part where I said I was PVPing as early as this morning. I have PVPed. I have a veteran rank. I had to so that I could get warhorn and caltrops and the like. I don't mean to sound rude...but its the atmosphere. I just really find the PVP people in general (not all) to be toxic. Also, can we all not admit how much of a lag fest PVP really is? No thank you. I have PVPed and played the game longer than 3 years now with over 1000 CP levels accumulated. It's not my cup of tea. I choose not to PVP, please respect that. Just as I am asking ZOS too, it's not you, it's me. I won't go as far as asking to remove PVP or have two separate games because I realize that the players like yourself that do double duty are an asset to the player community and you should not have to pick and choose, you should have a choice. Which is why I am asking: Can we please have the PVP leads also drop in PVE as well.

I didn't miss that part, I'm saying that your lack of enjoyment of the format is probably driven by a lack of success at achieving your goals when you PvP. Parsing out your comments:

1. Veteran rank: This is not very high, it takes about four-five hours of effective grinding in Cyrodiil to achieve that, which is not really enough time to explore the format. If it took a lot longer than that, it was probably because you were soloing or you were not grouped with enough of the right kind of people to get things done that reward AP, which will give you a negative experience. As such, I'd still put it to you that you might not have had a positive experience due to a lack of adequately-sized groups employing good coordination.

2. PVP player toxicity: It is true that many PvP players have an aggressive "locker room" attitude that comes with competitive play in general. A subset of those are abusive and mean spirited, another subset actually thrive on generating interpersonal conflict and collecting salt to show off. However, mean people are not unique to PvP, I've run into loads of toxic behavior in PvE, especially in dungeon pugs, but also in guilds and teams that focus on endgame. If player toxicity is your basis for avoiding different aspects of the game, there is plenty of evidence that you should hate PvE as much as PvP.

3. I respect your decision not to PvP. However, I don't think that requesting that ZOS make everything in the game available to you without having to experience that content is a reasonable request because of your personal likes and dislikes. I hate fishing and find it boring, but I fished to get leads, and I understand and accept why ZOS makes me fish to do that. I also know some people love fishing. I don't get it, but more power to them. I buy their roes. The point is that the ring lead drops from IC bosses because the intent of that item is PvP focused. You just don't want to use it that way, and because you still want it, you want to get it without doing PvP. That would be like me asking ZOS to let me get perfect roe or the Artaeum broth recipe as rewards from keep captures in Cyrodiil because I don't want to fish. Taken to a logical conclusion, applied broadly, all activities in the game would allow you to accumulate any desired reward, which would make for a very isolated gaming experience that would not provide any incentive to try something different than what you are used to or comfortable with. As mentioned, this would undermine ZOS's business model as well as the fundamental design principles of a social game.

The driver for your desire to get the MBoB ring is driven by a desire to be able to flex off-tank and main tank, and also solo. There are other gear builds aside from that ring that can do that for you. So in the spirit of trying to solve your main problem, why not farm those gear sets instead of the ring? I don't know a single trial tank who uses the MBoB to do what you are suggesting, and if there is a build for that out there, I'm not aware of it (but maybe it's a thing and I just don't know about it). Honestly, you could avoid the whole thing by searching for a viable (and probably better) solution that does not involve PvP.

And finally, in the spirit of trying to be helpful, I'll extend an offer: I'm in PC-NA, EST, and I run a Cyrodiil PvP for PvErs event in my guild on Thursday evenings. If you are PC-NA also, send me a tell some time, and join us for the event and see how you feel about PvP after that. If I can get enough people to join in, I bet we can also help you farm that lead in IC after our Cyrodiil run. We might get wiped now and then, but we can usually get a good number of people their leads after an hour or so of playing given enough participation. (FWIW, I'm not that great of a player, this is not a flex in any way.)

So there you go. If you're not PC-NA, I can't help, but I hope you understand where i am coming from on this - most people I know who hated PvP before I met them who have run with us were encouraged afterwards, and many of them started doing both on a regular basis and having fun with it. I know you have already made up your mind, but I've met other people who had the same mindset, and later on changed their tune. I was one of them.

hafgood · August 2020

PvP gets special treatment???? You are having a giraffe you really are. PvP gets 3 events a year, PvE 9 or 10.

The Golden Vendor and all the boxes are available to any player with AP, and we get free AP in the monthly rewards. And actually if you just play IC you don't generate much in the way of AP.

In fact its worse for PvPers, we have to deal with AP, Tel Var and gold, you just have to deal with gold.

[snip]

As others have said the game is ESO, its not Skyrim or ESO PvP its just ESO. Like it or lump it its one game. And some of the content is in PvP zones and some in PvE zones, thats exactly how it should be, whether we like it or not.

[Edited for Baiting]

Fur_like_snow · August 2020

The game needs more leads and content in PvP areas not less.

Tomarkhos · August 2020

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

The game needs more leads and content in PvP areas not less.

Then ask for that. Again why you can't have double the leads is beyond me. I have a younger brother that used to get upset if his younger sister got something he didn't. It took a while but I was finally able to explain to him...why don't you just ask for that thing as well if you really want it, just because she has it does not mean you cannot have one as well.

Fur_like_snow · August 2020

Tomarkhos wrote: »

MrBrownstone wrote: »

This is your problem, you split the game like PvE and PvP while developers don't see it that way (and many players including me) I sometimes do PvP content and sometimes do PvE content. Some people prefer to stick only one of them and they start to think that these are two different games. No, PvP and PvE are both ESO and ESO has leads so leads will be split to every part of the game, PvP is no exception.

Even if we agree on the part that PvE and PvP ESO are completely different games, it's still a you problem because it's your decision to farm a PvP item to have a very niche use of it in PvE. You want the PvP item, you'll be forced to play PvP. You can't have everything you want if you don't play every part of the game. It's that simple, you'll not be entitled to anything. If I see tons of players with the Malacath Ring then it's not that hard to get apparently

"entitlement"... you guys like to really throw that word around. But you fail to lack an understanding of the word. It means to have special treatment. PVP gets plenty of special treatment I have already mentioned.

Last new content added to PvP was February of last year. No it doesn’t.

Dusk_Coven · August 2020

Tomarkhos wrote: »

Also when I solo quest content it would be nice to keep my same CP/BUILD without modifying it ever time I choose to solo.

The ability to have a completely different profile / skill set / attribute distribution / gear set for different roles on the same character is really overdue. It's not even a novel quality of life feature. I think NWO did a really good implementation even before ESO was a thing. They gave everyone one free additional profile and monetized having more, which is more than fair.

Tomarkhos · August 2020

furiouslog wrote: »

[

3. "I respect your decision not to PvP. However, I don't think that requesting that ZOS make everything in the game available to you without having to experience that content is a reasonable request because of your personal likes and dislikes. I hate fishing and find it boring, but I fished to get leads"

Thank you for respecting my choice. Now please help me to make that choice a reality or at the least acknowledge the fact that putting the lead on a PVP only area is not a sound idea. You give an example of fishing and how you do not like it but do it anyway. The difference is other players can't stop you from fishing, can they? If anything the more people that fish with you the greater your success is. You can also go cross realms to get this lead and do not even need to worry about a level requirement as well. Back when things first came out these were all things that would have had to been accomplished to fish for that lead, but ZOS realized this was a bad decision and changed it. This PVP only lead is another bad decision.

I do not like PVP but I am doing it anyway. I did it for 5 hours this morning since 3 am in the hopes of fewer people being on the server would give me a greater chance of success at farming the lead unmolested. Yet that was not the result, I was rolled many times and couldn't find a group willing to farm. I was in a group, I was in 3 groups this morning but none wanted to do anything but hunt players. I finally gave up and went back to soloing. So I am "experiencing" the content and let me tell you, I thought the lag and bugs were bad in trials, holy ***... it's so much worse in PVP that I don't want to do it just on that alone. And I have never had a toxic experience in PVE as I did with the raid leader in my PVP guild. It was enough to make me stop PVPing.

thegreat_one · August 2020

I can go to any of the campaigns and get what I need done with the only exception being sewers and IC.
I got leads by chance just going to get the 20% AP bonus for kill a delve boss. I never had to go into enemy territory to do it.

If zone chat is a problem, Turn it off.

Lag, load screens and all that makes it a truly painful experience but at some point everyone has to deal with it.
.
Trials used to be my happy place until the re-install. Now I barely notice a difference between PvE/PvP performance, It's all crap.

The fact that I get leads even tho I refuse to pay for Greymoor is insulting.

Tomarkhos · August 2020

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

Tomarkhos wrote: »

MrBrownstone wrote: »

This is your problem, you split the game like PvE and PvP while developers don't see it that way (and many players including me) I sometimes do PvP content and sometimes do PvE content. Some people prefer to stick only one of them and they start to think that these are two different games. No, PvP and PvE are both ESO and ESO has leads so leads will be split to every part of the game, PvP is no exception.

Even if we agree on the part that PvE and PvP ESO are completely different games, it's still a you problem because it's your decision to farm a PvP item to have a very niche use of it in PvE. You want the PvP item, you'll be forced to play PvP. You can't have everything you want if you don't play every part of the game. It's that simple, you'll not be entitled to anything. If I see tons of players with the Malacath Ring then it's not that hard to get apparently

"entitlement"... you guys like to really throw that word around. But you fail to lack an understanding of the word. It means to have special treatment. PVP gets plenty of special treatment I have already mentioned.

Last new content added to PvP was February of last year. No it doesn’t.

No where did I say I want new content. I said equal. I gave you multiple examples where PVP gets access to PVE items that normally have to be ground out. Grinding out for an infused Monster helm takes time and patience. Or if you have the AP you can just buy it? How is that equal? I in no way say they should stop that, just citing an example where PVP gets their cake and to it as well in that instance.

Syldras · August 2020

AshfieldLad wrote: »

Don’t play at peak- people are looking for people, play at night

You know there are people who can't stay awake to play in the middle of the night because they work by day or have children to care for?

furiouslog wrote: »

If player toxicity is your basis for avoiding different aspects of the game, there is plenty of evidence that you should hate PvE as much as PvP.

You can avoid other players in PvE quite well. In PvP, obviously, it's not so easy.

Arca94 · August 2020

Tomarkhos wrote: »

No where did I say I want new content. I said equal. I gave you multiple examples where PVP gets access to PVE items that normally have to be ground out. Grinding out for an infused Monster helm takes time and patience. Or if you have the AP you can just buy it? How is that equal? I in no way say they should stop that, just citing an example where PVP gets their cake and to it as well in that instance.

You act as if you can simply buy Monster Helmets at your leisure from PvP.

The reality is, only 2 random Monster Sets spawn at the Golden Vendor every week. They aren't even necessarily helmets, they could be shoulders.

So, if I wanted to get Skoria for example (one which actually seems one of the more common Golden items):

I could wait and hope for weeks on end that it would spawn in the Golden Vendor at a weekend for me to then purchase with gold or AP. At best, I still need to wait for one weekend to come around for a chance at this. Then if I don't want it in Infused or Impenetrable I need to transmute it.

Or

I could get a group together with friends, guildmates or even just randoms on that day and run the dungeon multiple times, with each run guaranteeing 4 drops of the exact helmet set I want. The only variables here are the traits and armour weights. I don't even need to pay anything for it.

So please don't try to push the whole 'Grinding out for an infused Monster helm takes time and patience' when you're actually even more at the mercy of RNG and time using the PvP route, than the PvE route.

idk · August 2020

Tomarkhos wrote: »

Good question turnip. I primarily play a tank. My crit is like 27% I believe. When I off-tank I would like to use it for a build I have that allows me to still jump in to take over as the main tank. The build is centric around building up CP for warhorn and doing moderate damage so as not to be a large drag over the group. Also when I solo quest content it would be nice to keep my same CP/BUILD without modifying it ever time I choose to solo.

I never change my CP to do quests. I have a quasi DPS build for doing quests that works great. I just change my gear and skills and can dps just fine while being able to tank a WB is need be.

As for trials, there is still no reason to change CP to OT fights where you do not need to tank. Just change gear and skills.

Regardless, Zos put leads throughout the game. Cyrodiil is very much part of the game so I doubt they will move leads from there.

furiouslog · August 2020

Tomarkhos wrote: »

Thank you for respecting my choice. Now please help me to make that choice a reality or at the least acknowledge the fact that putting the lead on a PVP only area is not a sound idea.

No.

Syldras wrote: »

You can avoid other players in PvE quite well. In PvP, obviously, it's not so easy.

how, exactly?

MrBrownstone · August 2020

Tomarkhos wrote: »

it would be nice to keep my same CP/BUILD without modifying it ever time I choose to solo.

Guess what, downloading an addon like alphagear and changing your whole build with the press of a single button is much easier than farming the ring. Also don't forget that the ring increases your damage by a percentage. Tanks have pitiful damage and a 25% increase will not help at all. Changing skills/gear will do.

Syldras · August 2020

furiouslog wrote: »

how, exactly?

Depends on what you're doing, probably. But especially dlc areas are quite empty even in the evenings. Happens often that I'm questing and see maybe four or five people within an hour, not more (actually I was fishing for a lead in Clockwork City this evening - took some time until I got it, and I literally saw no one else all the time although I've been close to a wayshrine). And most 4-player dungeons are easily soloable as well.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2020

No! If you want everything, play the whole game. Full Stop.

furiouslog · August 2020

Syldras wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

how, exactly?

Depends on what you're doing, probably. But especially dlc areas are quite empty even in the evenings. Happens often that I'm questing and see maybe four or five people within an hour, not more (actually I was fishing for a lead in Clockwork City this evening - took some time until I got it, and I literally saw no one else all the time although I've been close to a wayshrine). And most 4-player dungeons are easily soloable as well.

Oh I see. So basically limit your content so that you don't have to group or interact with anyone. That seems extreme. Why even be in an MMO? There are loads of excellent single player games.