can we get a dev response as to why AoE taunting is not a thing in this game?

Wing · August 2020

im all for a mechanic if i understand the reasoning behind it, but i just cannot see it.

for instance, a couple friends and I have been wandering through FF14 recently, and we pre researched and dedicated rolls before we set off.

taunting in FF14 is a toggle. . .

all tank rolls get it, you toggle it on, EVERYTHING you do generates more hate, single target, AoE, whatever, you just become a magnet by virtue of having the toggle on.

its so convenient and so easy to perform rolls because systems are in place to just make them work properly.

compared to tanking in ESO, a roll everyone knows has been lacking and full of fake tanks because people refuse to play it.

one of the main reasons?

on top of all standard tank things you have to do or know, running around in EVERY. SINGLE. PACK. of trash mobs trying to individually taunt each one is just not fun.

now i know you can just aoe down the trash and dont have to taunt it for the most part, but that kind of mentality is what spawned fake tanks in the first place, and if trash is trash because its trash, then why not let us AoE taunt then? most good tanks already have more to do then "just taunt" anyway, this just slims down the amount of tasks going on.

honestly playing another game where it was simple and just worked made me realize what a pain it is in ESO for no good reason, and how fluid and fun group content is when the rolls all have systems in place to just work nicely.

WastedJoker · August 2020

Also why does Frost staff heavy attack taunt!?

Really ruins the Warden Frost theme when you have to unskill just to make an item usable without messing things up

tmbrinks · August 2020

this isn't FF?

Games are allowed to have different mechanics?

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2020

Because it's a lazy solution that would make tanking 4 man content more boring than it already is...

thorwyn · August 2020

The answer is: you don't need it!
You don't need to tank everything in ESO, you just need to tank the critical mobs and bosses. DD's and healers are able to survive a few hits from a trash mob and they can still cast while being attacked (i.e. no interrupts on taking damage). It adds to the pace of the game and makes tanking a bit more challenging than just clicking one button.

CyberSkooma · August 2020

Because the content wasn't designed for it and you don't need it. There's no need for a developer response lol.

CyberSkooma · August 2020

WastedJoker wrote: »

Also why does Frost staff heavy attack taunt!?

Really ruins the Warden Frost theme when you have to unskill just to make an item usable without messing things up

So that tanks have a magicka block option?

Thechuckage · August 2020

on top of all standard tank things you have to do or know, running around in EVERY. SINGLE. PACK. of trash mobs trying to individually taunt each one is just not fun. Found the problem.

As others have said you just need to focus on the dangerous targets, even when the game was new you did this.

An AoE taunt would make tanking even less involved / boring.

virtus753 · August 2020

CyberSkooma wrote: »

WastedJoker wrote: »

Also why does Frost staff heavy attack taunt!?

Really ruins the Warden Frost theme when you have to unskill just to make an item usable without messing things up

So that tanks have a magicka block option?

This could have been handled separately, though: frost staves could get their own damage bonus, and then a separate passive could have been implemented to make staves (frost or any) a tanking tool (taunt on heavy attack, block with magicka, etc.).

While I suppose I could see a connection between frost/ice and hardiness, singling out frost staves and making them a tanking weapon in lieu of a dps one seems a bit arbitrary. Why not just have that destro passive give all staves a damage advantage by type, and then separately allow us to use a staff for tanking?

zvavi · August 2020

CyberSkooma wrote: »

WastedJoker wrote: »

Also why does Frost staff heavy attack taunt!?

Really ruins the Warden Frost theme when you have to unskill just to make an item usable without messing things up

So that tanks have a magicka block option?

#introduce alternation staves.

More on topic, if I am not mistaken there was a developer comment on the matter, and it was somewhere along the lines of this

thorwyn wrote: »

The answer is: you don't need it!
You don't need to tank everything in ESO, you just need to tank the critical mobs and bosses. DD's and healers are able to survive a few hits from a trash mob

CyberSkooma · August 2020

virtus753 wrote: »

CyberSkooma wrote: »

WastedJoker wrote: »

Also why does Frost staff heavy attack taunt!?

Really ruins the Warden Frost theme when you have to unskill just to make an item usable without messing things up

So that tanks have a magicka block option?

This could have been handled separately, though: frost staves could get their own damage bonus, and then a separate passive could have been implemented to make staves (frost or any) a tanking tool (taunt on heavy attack, block with magicka, etc.).

While I suppose I could see a connection between frost/ice and hardiness, singling out frost staves and making them a tanking weapon in lieu of a dps one seems a bit arbitrary. Why not just have that destro passive give all staves a damage advantage by type, and then separately allow us to use a staff for tanking?

I'm not saying it couldn't be handled differently, because it certainly could. But the current answer is the same. Frost staves have a taunt and mag block so that tanks have a mag option.

Alidel · August 2020

As others mentioned - eso demands some survivability from dds and healers, and tank only have to taunt couple strongest mobs. That said you technically can aoe taunt as templar tank in tormentor set. But why would you want to?

Dagoth_Rac · August 2020

The devs have spoken of this numerous times over the 6+ years of game.

Tanks are specifically designed to be unable to taunt everything. There is no "aggro table" at all. You must explicitly taunt an enemy or they will attack other players at random. The design is to make tanking more engaging (what do I have to taunt, what can I leave untaunted, what can I leave untaunted for stretches but must taunt at certain times, when do I have to exchange taunt of certain enemies with the other tank, etc.).

The design is also to keep healers and DPS on their toes because they will take unavoidable and unpredictable damage. Damage goes beyond mechanics. There will almost always be trash or adds running free, attacking other players at random. DPS need to pay attention because they never know when some add might start picking on them. Healers need to pay attention because they never know what DPS is going to be getting picked on at any time.

This is a critical part of the "Action RPG" style of combat in ESO. There are a lot of random elements to boss fights and you need to be constantly paying attention to and reacting to current events. It will be different every time. And the inability of taunts to just taunt everything is a big part of that design.

If that style of play does not appeal to you, that is fine. Different games appeal to different people. But AoE taunt is not an oversight by the developers or something they cannot figure out how to do. Tanks needing to prioritize certain enemies, and the lack of an aggro table, are key aspects of combat design that have been part of the game since launch.

Tommy_The_Gun · August 2020

There will be a possibility to have AOE taunt in next update.

The "catch" is that you will have to use 5 pcs set for that - Tormentor set.
https://eso-sets.com/set/tormentor

There are 2 commonly available (for all classes) abilities that will trigger AOE taunt with this set: Stampede (Two Handed gap closer) and Brutal Pounce (Werewolf gap closer).

Now for your average tank it is not optimal at all and you lose an entire 5 pcs set for that. It is way better to use different set that will make you more tanky or give some group support.

But, as for a Werewolf tank... well... lets just say that it seems that ZOS wants it to be a thing.
Over recent updates they made a lot of changes that will make it possible. They changed Pack Leader and now it has 10% damage reduction and grants yourself and nearby allies Minor Courage (Weapon and Spell Damage boost). Next, they changed Tormentor set, so it now works with all types of gap closers (previously it only worked with "charge" gap closers).

And now, finally they slightly altered Stampede & Brutal Pounce - so it will trigger AOE taunt when you have Tormentor set equipped. For a WW tank it makes a lot of sense:
- WW skills are kinda expensive, so you can not "spam" taunt. On a regular tank - you can as those abilities are quite cheap.
- WW Brutal Pounce alters to Brutal Carnage for 5 seconds after you used it.... so again, you can not use a "taunt" very often.

All of those changes CAN NOT be accidental. ZOS had a vision this time and it is quite clear they want that. So please... if you will pug a dungeon via group finder and your tank transforms into Werewolf at some point (probably Pack Leader aka White wolf) - don't kick him/her as it is probably a "Tormentor" tank.

heaven13 · August 2020

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

The devs have spoken of this numerous times over the 6+ years of game.

Tanks are specifically designed to be unable to taunt everything. There is no "aggro table" at all. You must explicitly taunt an enemy or they will attack other players at random. The design is to make tanking more engaging (what do I have to taunt, what can I leave untaunted, what can I leave untaunted for stretches but must taunt at certain times, when do I have to exchange taunt of certain enemies with the other tank, etc.).

Can you imagine twins in vMoL or triplets in vHoF if both tanks just had a toggle taunt?

Ratzkifal · August 2020

What's there not to understand?
If you only need to press one button to taunt every enemy around you dumb tanking down to just holding block and maybe managing resources.
If you can't taunt everyone at once you need to actually think about who to taunt and who to taunt next and who needs a refresh on their taunt. The lack of aoe taunts makes tanking more engaging.

DocFrost72 · August 2020

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

The devs have spoken of this numerous times over the 6+ years of game.

Tanks are specifically designed to be unable to taunt everything. There is no "aggro table" at all. You must explicitly taunt an enemy or they will attack other players at random. The design is to make tanking more engaging (what do I have to taunt, what can I leave untaunted, what can I leave untaunted for stretches but must taunt at certain times, when do I have to exchange taunt of certain enemies with the other tank, etc.).

The design is also to keep healers and DPS on their toes because they will take unavoidable and unpredictable damage. Damage goes beyond mechanics. There will almost always be trash or adds running free, attacking other players at random. DPS need to pay attention because they never know when some add might start picking on them. Healers need to pay attention because they never know what DPS is going to be getting picked on at any time.

This is a critical part of the "Action RPG" style of combat in ESO. There are a lot of random elements to boss fights and you need to be constantly paying attention to and reacting to current events. It will be different every time. And the inability of taunts to just taunt everything is a big part of that design.

If that style of play does not appeal to you, that is fine. Different games appeal to different people. But AoE taunt is not an oversight by the developers or something they cannot figure out how to do. Tanks needing to prioritize certain enemies, and the lack of an aggro table, are key aspects of combat design that have been part of the game since launch.

This is your answer OP. I've been here since 2014, and since that time I've heard numerous requests for aoe taunts. The issue is that it just isn't needed. There is an intended skill to be learned here: who and when to taunt. I'm personally not a fan of "press button now i have aggro" game play, and I like the way ESO does things.

Astrid · August 2020

Imagine an AOE taunt when you *usually* run 2 tanks in raids. Sometimes even 3. Sometimes a healer takes taunt of things to help stack in specific fights like Nahviintaas HM.
Imagine the battle for taunt dominance if people use AOE taunt.

Also imagine how mind-numbling it would be to have a skill do majority of your job as a tank for you... Yeah no.

mav1234 · August 2020

I am so glad there is no AoE taunt. It makes tanking more engaging and fun, and gives me reason to use various AoE control abilities.

pieratsos · August 2020

Ratzkifal wrote: »

What's there not to understand?
If you only need to press one button to taunt every enemy around you dumb tanking down to just holding block and maybe managing resources.
If you can't taunt everyone at once you need to actually think about who to taunt and who to taunt next and who needs a refresh on their taunt. The lack of aoe taunts makes tanking more engaging.

Yeah recycling taunts between mobs is so much engaging.

Onefrkncrzypope · August 2020

There is a set that aoe taunts now.... frost staff was changed because people complained that there was no magic tanking.

karekiz · August 2020

Lets have agro based on DPS too like those other games you list.

Can't LA weave and do X damage as a tank? Have fun getting kicked for being a bad tank because you keep losing agro to good players instead!

Ohh you just started? Just learning to play? Get paired with a 810 CP with full 80K parse? Welp that will be fun!

Dark_Lord_Kuro · August 2020

CyberSkooma wrote: »

WastedJoker wrote: »

Also why does Frost staff heavy attack taunt!?

Really ruins the Warden Frost theme when you have to unskill just to make an item usable without messing things up

So that tanks have a magicka block option?

They can keep the mag block for all i care just remouve the taunt

Dark_Lord_Kuro · August 2020

karekiz wrote: »

Lets have agro based on DPS too like those other games you list.

Can't LA weave and do X damage as a tank? Have fun getting kicked for being a bad tank because you keep losing agro to good players instead!

Ohh you just started? Just learning to play? Get paired with a 810 CP with full 80K parse? Welp that will be fun!

Ff14 dont work like that...

Scrollup · August 2020

ESO Tank in PVE just plain SUCKS. It works in its own way. But still sucks.

I am a FFXIV Veteran and ESO is just different breed. FFXIV does everything better except ESO is very unique MMO but still flawed and could have been improve but ZOS seems to have hard time or don't want to put effort into it. They have their stubborn reason.

I have no problem for most part. But i also said the same thing as you when i started tanking in Dungeons back then.

Athan1 · August 2020

Roles work differently in ESO. Tanks don't need to tank everything, healers don't need to heal all the time, dd need to do mechanics too apart from dpsing. It's more fun this way.

Dovakhan · August 2020

In reality, AoE taunting is not THAT necessary. Only that incompetent DD's blame tanks for their own inability to do their job, and for not understanding that there are many ways to crowd control.

If everything goes well, things should go like this in a trash mob fight: tanks go to a group of trash mobs, Turn Evil / Time Stop. DD's charge in, and before even the effects have passed, they should be all mostly on the ground. It's just glorious when your DD's are good, and thus that happens consistently on all encounters.

Instead, and thanks to those mediocres DD's, tanks are forced into what OP said: to try to taunt every trash mob individually. Which I don't mind myself (I try to do both things: Time Stop + taunting when I'm coupled with sub-par DD's), and it's even engaging and challenging if you ask me, but again, it's not the tank's fault to have to resort to that, and neither he should in most cases.

Frankly, I'd prefer they fix Fiery Grip and other ways of dragging enemies around, as they don't work half of the time :P

Scrollup · August 2020

Tips for OP:

The 2 class I switch to tank for dungeon for quick queue and for Undaunted are MagDK and MagSorc.

I equip Sword and Shield and unlock the first Sword skill that taunts. I simply just sprint and swipe each mob and gather them together with no problem. You don't need to grab all mob either just the big one and the Boss. The puny adds are not needed to be taunt.

That's pretty much it. Rinse and repeat.

Taunt will never work as toggle like FFXIV because the way the game is built around how Class and gears and weapon skills created.

Example: Class in this game are flexible and isn't consider end all be all single assigned role like in FFXIV.
Then the Skills such as Sword and Shield is consider tanking (also ice staff) mitigation so it includes taunting passive trait.
Along with Undaunted Guild Skills.

heaven13 · August 2020

Dovakhan wrote: »

Frankly, I'd prefer they fix Fiery Grip and other ways of dragging enemies around, as they don't work half of the time :P

Lol, what about when you talon/encase/whatever an enemy and it still moves backwards while rooted to do whatever it was going to next (throw dagger, charge, etc, etc, etc)?

Dovakhan · August 2020

heaven13 wrote: »

Dovakhan wrote: »

Frankly, I'd prefer they fix Fiery Grip and other ways of dragging enemies around, as they don't work half of the time :P

Lol, what about when you talon/encase/whatever an enemy and it still moves backwards while rooted to do whatever it was going to next (throw dagger, charge, etc, etc, etc)?

That, too xP

TBH, I haven't used Talon much with my tank. I prefer Time Stop, cos it has been consistent and reliable in my experience.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · August 2020

Maybe as a part od a illusion spell staff if we ever get one?
A skill like woe but that aggro? Or maybe one like force pulse but it would agro other ennemy around the target if they are rooted or in fear