Ball groups need heavy direct nerfs

ZOS_ConnorG · August 2020

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Gorreck · August 2020

TequilaFire wrote: »

You solo guys keep asking for nerfs that gimp yourselves more than what you perceive as a ball group.
You will never stop players that take the time to learn how to play and synergize.

I've played a LOT of MMORPG PvP since 1997, including full loot on death, exp loss on death and even perma-death on one server, but I've never experienced anything as simply plain bad as ESO ball-groups (i.e. they are very easy to setup up and organise, but have power way, way beyond the rudimentary organisation they require - in other MMORPGs to achieve that level of relative power requires exceptional organisation, synergy and tactical play).

They reality is when grouping mechanics broke in Cyrodill for a week or two it was a different game, the mass PvP was still there, but the ball-groups were GONE and it was pretty good.

Ball-groups are a specific artifact of ESO, organised play is a different thing entirely.

TequilaFire · August 2020

Gorreck wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

You solo guys keep asking for nerfs that gimp yourselves more than what you perceive as a ball group.
You will never stop players that take the time to learn how to play and synergize.

I've played a LOT of MMORPG PvP since 1997, including full loot on death, exp loss on death and even perma-death on one server, but I've never experienced anything as simply plain bad as ESO ball-groups (i.e. they are very easy to setup up and organise, but have power way, way beyond the rudimentary organisation they require - in other MMORPGs to achieve that level of relative power requires exceptional organisation, synergy and tactical play).

They reality is when grouping mechanics broke in Cyrodill for a week or two it was a different game, the mass PvP was still there, but the ball-groups were GONE and it was pretty good.

Ball-groups are a specific artifact of ESO, organised play is a different thing entirely.

Ball group is a label that is now being used by most to identify any organized group play good or bad even though most of the time what is identified as a "Ball" group is actually a PUG faction stack.

Please understand we need cyro as a place where our guilds and groups can play one another using group not single player tactics. I only play in an organized guild group with composition and tactics and now in an MMO that is now somehow the cause of all things evil.

When they introduced Battlegrounds I was so happy for the small scalers and 1vX guys because now they had a place of their own because I was naive enough to believe that good small scale fights were what was wanted.
Turns out I was wrong it was more about the farm than the fight.

technohic · August 2020

TequilaFire wrote: »

Gorreck wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

You solo guys keep asking for nerfs that gimp yourselves more than what you perceive as a ball group.
You will never stop players that take the time to learn how to play and synergize.

I've played a LOT of MMORPG PvP since 1997, including full loot on death, exp loss on death and even perma-death on one server, but I've never experienced anything as simply plain bad as ESO ball-groups (i.e. they are very easy to setup up and organise, but have power way, way beyond the rudimentary organisation they require - in other MMORPGs to achieve that level of relative power requires exceptional organisation, synergy and tactical play).

They reality is when grouping mechanics broke in Cyrodill for a week or two it was a different game, the mass PvP was still there, but the ball-groups were GONE and it was pretty good.

Ball-groups are a specific artifact of ESO, organised play is a different thing entirely.

Ball group is a label that is now being used by most to identify any organized group play good or bad even though most of the time what is identified as a "Ball" group is actually a PUG faction stack.

Please understand we need cyro as a place where our guilds and groups can play one another using group not single player tactics. I only play in an organized guild group with composition and tactics and now in an MMO that is now somehow the cause of all things evil.

When they introduced Battlegrounds I was so happy for the small scalers and 1vX guys because now they had a place of their own because I was naive enough to believe that good small scale fights were what was wanted.
Turns out I was wrong it was more about the farm than the fight.

Its not just organized groups that we are calling ball groups. Fighting and coordinating are one thing. Most of us are talking about very specific types stacked tight, stacking Regen and purge cuasing them to be nearly invincible short of having negates and ulti dump coordination; which can be done by a coordinated group not using those tactics, but they need a lot of damage and be able to keep these groups in a negate. Really requires more skill than the group doing the ball tactics though. Otherwise; it looks like it requires a group doing the same ball tactics but with more numbers as shown in VEs video.

If a single player could use a build that the only way to beat them would be to run the same build but with more numbers, we'd call that a balancing issue. Just being a group comp should not change that train of thought.

Gorreck · August 2020

TequilaFire wrote: »

Gorreck wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

You solo guys keep asking for nerfs that gimp yourselves more than what you perceive as a ball group.
You will never stop players that take the time to learn how to play and synergize.

I've played a LOT of MMORPG PvP since 1997, including full loot on death, exp loss on death and even perma-death on one server, but I've never experienced anything as simply plain bad as ESO ball-groups (i.e. they are very easy to setup up and organise, but have power way, way beyond the rudimentary organisation they require - in other MMORPGs to achieve that level of relative power requires exceptional organisation, synergy and tactical play).

They reality is when grouping mechanics broke in Cyrodill for a week or two it was a different game, the mass PvP was still there, but the ball-groups were GONE and it was pretty good.

Ball-groups are a specific artifact of ESO, organised play is a different thing entirely.

Ball group is a label that is now being used by most to identify any organized group play good or bad even though most of the time what is identified as a "Ball" group is actually a PUG faction stack.

Please understand we need cyro as a place where our guilds and groups can play one another using group not single player tactics. I only play in an organized guild group with composition and tactics and now in an MMO that is now somehow the cause of all things evil.

When they introduced Battlegrounds I was so happy for the small scalers and 1vX guys because now they had a place of their own because I was naive enough to believe that good small scale fights were what was wanted.
Turns out I was wrong it was more about the farm than the fight.

Ball-groups are a very specific thing both in ESO and indeed too ESO.

As I said ESO ball-groups are fairly unique in MMORPG PvP history in that they give a vast amount of power for very little relative organisation or group synergy.

It is not the same as an organised raid or using tactics - although an organised raid may use the tactic of being a ball-group, of course.

If they manage to reign in the power of ball-groups, this means that other types of group organisation and group tactics actually become more powerful and needed and playstyle would diversify in Cyrodill and would be more fun (and quite possibly with less lag).

ecru · August 2020

TequilaFire wrote: »

Gorreck wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

You solo guys keep asking for nerfs that gimp yourselves more than what you perceive as a ball group.
You will never stop players that take the time to learn how to play and synergize.

I've played a LOT of MMORPG PvP since 1997, including full loot on death, exp loss on death and even perma-death on one server, but I've never experienced anything as simply plain bad as ESO ball-groups (i.e. they are very easy to setup up and organise, but have power way, way beyond the rudimentary organisation they require - in other MMORPGs to achieve that level of relative power requires exceptional organisation, synergy and tactical play).

They reality is when grouping mechanics broke in Cyrodill for a week or two it was a different game, the mass PvP was still there, but the ball-groups were GONE and it was pretty good.

Ball-groups are a specific artifact of ESO, organised play is a different thing entirely.

Ball group is a label that is now being used by most to identify any organized group play good or bad even though most of the time what is identified as a "Ball" group is actually a PUG faction stack.

Please understand we need cyro as a place where our guilds and groups can play one another using group not single player tactics. I only play in an organized guild group with composition and tactics and now in an MMO that is now somehow the cause of all things evil.

When they introduced Battlegrounds I was so happy for the small scalers and 1vX guys because now they had a place of their own because I was naive enough to believe that good small scale fights were what was wanted.
Turns out I was wrong it was more about the farm than the fight.

BG's in ESO are not a good format for small scale pvp, they're a frantic rush to points in a chaotic arena, with all game modes promoting ignoring pvp due to the introduction of the third team. Deathmatch games encourage cowardly Xv1 gameplay due to the third team and objective games encourage ignoring the other two teams pvping and purely playing objectives, again due to the third team. The addition of the third team was an extremely poor decision and BG's will never be particularly good or interesting because of it.

Honestly for someone to suggest that people who enjoy small scale pvp would enjoy BGs shows me a fundamental understanding of what "hardcore" pvpers actually enjoy. Fairness/fair fights (or basically not having a major advantage) and being rewarded for engaging in pvp are two things we look for and both are absent from BGs. Doing well in a 4v4v4 deathmatch means stealing kills or waiting to backdoor a fight to Xv1 one team and clean up the other, and the idea that this sort of gameplay would appeal to hardcore pvpers is extremely wrong. You don't earn your kills and your points, you steal them, and that kind of gameplay is extremely unfulfilling.

TequilaFire · August 2020

No BGs are not perfect they need a ranked arena mode.
But destroying group play in Cyro in favor of small scale is not the answer either.
As to fair fight in a class/set based MMO it is just not going to happen.

Fawn4287 · August 2020

ecru wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Gorreck wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

You solo guys keep asking for nerfs that gimp yourselves more than what you perceive as a ball group.
You will never stop players that take the time to learn how to play and synergize.

I've played a LOT of MMORPG PvP since 1997, including full loot on death, exp loss on death and even perma-death on one server, but I've never experienced anything as simply plain bad as ESO ball-groups (i.e. they are very easy to setup up and organise, but have power way, way beyond the rudimentary organisation they require - in other MMORPGs to achieve that level of relative power requires exceptional organisation, synergy and tactical play).

They reality is when grouping mechanics broke in Cyrodill for a week or two it was a different game, the mass PvP was still there, but the ball-groups were GONE and it was pretty good.

Ball-groups are a specific artifact of ESO, organised play is a different thing entirely.

Ball group is a label that is now being used by most to identify any organized group play good or bad even though most of the time what is identified as a "Ball" group is actually a PUG faction stack.

Please understand we need cyro as a place where our guilds and groups can play one another using group not single player tactics. I only play in an organized guild group with composition and tactics and now in an MMO that is now somehow the cause of all things evil.

When they introduced Battlegrounds I was so happy for the small scalers and 1vX guys because now they had a place of their own because I was naive enough to believe that good small scale fights were what was wanted.
Turns out I was wrong it was more about the farm than the fight.

BG's in ESO are not a good format for small scale pvp, they're a frantic rush to points in a chaotic arena, with all game modes promoting ignoring pvp due to the introduction of the third team. Deathmatch games encourage cowardly Xv1 gameplay due to the third team and objective games encourage ignoring the other two teams pvping and purely playing objectives, again due to the third team. The addition of the third team was an extremely poor decision and BG's will never be particularly good or interesting because of it.

Honestly for someone to suggest that people who enjoy small scale pvp would enjoy BGs shows me a fundamental understanding of what "hardcore" pvpers actually enjoy. Fairness/fair fights (or basically not having a major advantage) and being rewarded for engaging in pvp are two things we look for and both are absent from BGs. Doing well in a 4v4v4 deathmatch means stealing kills or waiting to backdoor a fight to Xv1 one team and clean up the other, and the idea that this sort of gameplay would appeal to hardcore pvpers is extremely wrong. You don't earn your kills and your points, you steal them, and that kind of gameplay is extremely unfulfilling.

This is a perfect summary, what good is death match when versing a team with 2 magsorcs? 2 sets of endless on a target is a guaranteed way to steal kills, especially when third partying

Kaysha · August 2020

TequilaFire wrote: »

Gorreck wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

You solo guys keep asking for nerfs that gimp yourselves more than what you perceive as a ball group.
You will never stop players that take the time to learn how to play and synergize.

I've played a LOT of MMORPG PvP since 1997, including full loot on death, exp loss on death and even perma-death on one server, but I've never experienced anything as simply plain bad as ESO ball-groups (i.e. they are very easy to setup up and organise, but have power way, way beyond the rudimentary organisation they require - in other MMORPGs to achieve that level of relative power requires exceptional organisation, synergy and tactical play).

They reality is when grouping mechanics broke in Cyrodill for a week or two it was a different game, the mass PvP was still there, but the ball-groups were GONE and it was pretty good.

Ball-groups are a specific artifact of ESO, organised play is a different thing entirely.

Ball group is a label that is now being used by most to identify any organized group play good or bad even though most of the time what is identified as a "Ball" group is actually a PUG faction stack.

Please understand we need cyro as a place where our guilds and groups can play one another using group not single player tactics. I only play in an organized guild group with composition and tactics and now in an MMO that is now somehow the cause of all things evil.

When they introduced Battlegrounds I was so happy for the small scalers and 1vX guys because now they had a place of their own because I was naive enough to believe that good small scale fights were what was wanted.
Turns out I was wrong it was more about the farm than the fight.

You can still play in a group and use group tactics without using ball-group playstyle. There is no need to have special skills or sets specifically designed for group play. Playing in a coordinated group with voicechat is advantage enough.

Pauwer · August 2020

Give us some new alliance war skills to better counter ball groups, i'd like that. Now it's kind of hard to counter them, some classes have some skills, but make some available for all pvp players.

Tammany · August 2020

Pauwer wrote: »

Give us some new alliance war skills to better counter ball groups, i'd like that. Now it's kind of hard to counter them, some classes have some skills, but make some available for all pvp players.

For example what ? Orbital strike request ?

Pauwer · August 2020

I don't know... something. That would only work against multiple targets on small area and would stick on them for x time or... something.

StamPlar_1976 · August 2020

technohic wrote: »

idk wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

So a sorc wont be able to cast streak a few times to get away? A dk wont be able to use talons/breath into leap?

The issue is purge:

Snared? Purge
Rooted? Purge
Stunned? Purge
Dots? Purge
Debuffs? Purge

Just make alliance war purge a self purge only and increase the cost. Balls would then become easier to kill. Instead of ruining the game for everyone.

Yeah come at me ballers.

It sounds like a simple solution, but.. good ballers would adapt by making groups of certain 2-3 classes with class purges on sort of rotation for each (like a Necro casting Hexproof every few seconds to take out a layer of stuff away, imagine 10-20+ Necros, with several Earthgores, and certain 5p sets on several people in the group so the individual purge proc it does per target is cleansing stuff automatically by many on cooldown).. these sets increased number would sacrifice some of their damage though, but they could gain it back by growing their numbers up too.

So let them adapt like that. It should be an extremely daunting task to put together a large group that is basically immune to all dots/debuffs. To put together such a strong comp, you should have to build around it. If they adapt by building around it with all necros and purge sets, good for them, they're at least making some sacrifices for it. The problem is that right now you don't have to build around it, you get it with a few group members slotting it and using it regularly, there is no real sacrifice necessary, just have healers work in purges in between casting regen and other heals and.. welp, that's it.

What is wrong with a good group with a good leader working to take down zergs?

This line has become a red herring. Most ball groups are not going out and engaging zergs. Rather; they find a spot where they cant be ignored and create a concentration of players into a zerg while they run around farming.

And watch this and tell me you cant be both a ball group and a zerg at the same time.
https://youtu.be/Xo-krb1jxFc

I thought that was excellent game play. Loved the video.

VaranisArano · August 2020

Pauwer wrote: »

Give us some new alliance war skills to better counter ball groups, i'd like that. Now it's kind of hard to counter them, some classes have some skills, but make some available for all pvp players.

If you can come up with skills that the ball group won't use better than you, go for it.

I mean, look at Magicka Detonation. That's pretty clearly designed to be used against groups. Who uses it more effectively - small groups vs ball groups or ball groups vs PUGs?

Crash427 · August 2020

The single biggest thing they could do to nerf ballgroups would be to fix break free.

Greasytengu · August 2020

Crash427 wrote: »

The single biggest thing they could do to nerf ballgroups would be to fix break free.

Don't know if it would 'fix' ball groups, but it would definitely improve everyone's PVP experience.

Crash427 · August 2020

Greasytengu wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

The single biggest thing they could do to nerf ballgroups would be to fix break free.

Don't know if it would 'fix' ball groups, but it would definitely improve everyone's PVP experience.

The thing is most ballgroups don't move all that fast and everyone knows what they're doing. Look for the clump of people, CC them, harmony bomb. If people could break free more reliably it would make it harder for ballgroups to get kills. Then again the lag is one of the only things that allows some groups to ever kill ballgroups too so it goes both ways.

Greasytengu · August 2020

Crash427 wrote: »

The thing is most ballgroups don't move all that fast and everyone knows what they're doing. Look for the clump of people, CC them, harmony bomb. If people could break free more reliably it would make it harder for ballgroups to get kills. Then again the lag is one of the only things that allows some groups to ever kill ballgroups too so it goes both ways.

Yeah! Everyone benefits! It would probably benefit smaller groups more than large groups, but large groups will still benefit. If anything it not truly nerfing, just balancing.

At the moment CCs are overperforming, causing CC spamming to be more important than positioning and coordination, thus making actual group skill not as needed as it really should be to get the same result. A group with good coordination should be able to take on a greater number of enemies to a point. For example, being able to hold an entire faction in their own unflagged keep is past that point, but holding off a "zerg" (let's say 24-30+ players of mixed skill) in a field, resource, flagged keep would be reasonable and realistic.