Ball groups need heavy direct nerfs

Fawn4287

Ballgroups with the healing changes are even stronger and they are basically immune to debuffs given all run and spam purge. So these would heavily impede their ability to roll everyone while spamming 2 skills. All of these changes should be in PvP only

-Make purge self cleanse only
-Make rapid regen self heal only
-Move borrowed time to alliance war skills
-Put a cooldown on res once interupted
-Reduce healing to others by 20%-30% or alternatively incorporate penetration in to healing
-Cap max group size at 12

Standardising CC animations and CC breaks is also desperately needed, fear and AOE CCs are far more difficult to break and the inability to consistently CC break them is a huge advantage to 12+ man groups spamming AOEs.

Tammany

I can not even imagine people stacking several effects of 1 skill in any other mmo game. That happens only in ESO.

Sorry, but zos does not care.
Look at patch changes, ballgroups are getting buffed next patch.
Simple wait till people refuse to play completely against them (already happening), maybe then developer gonna take a look.

Major_Lag

Fawn4287 wrote: »

-Make purge self cleanse only

That would totally break all 12-man PvE content, unless such a change is done via battlespirit (unlikely).

Maybe a better option would be to instead implement a stacking cost penalty on consecutive purges, similar to Streak and rolldodge. Fine tune the % increase and cooldown to not affect trials to a significant degree, but put a dent in the purge spamming ballgroups..

Fawn4287 wrote: »

-Move borrowed time to alliance war skills

For what? So that the timestop spammers get an extra bonus to magicka regen from the Support skill tree sustain passive, and also extra procs of sets such as Meritorious as a side effect?
Nice try, though

Fawn4287 wrote: »

-Put a cooldown on res once interupted.

Very yes.
Put the cooldown on the rez target, to prevent situations where another player can immediately attempt to rez a person after the first one to try doing that got interrupted.

Fawn4287 wrote: »

-Reduce healing to others by 20%-30% or alternatively incorporate penetration in to healing

20-30% is probably not nearly enough, considering the insane heal stacking going on.
Some kind of system which decreases healing effectiveness when stacking heals from multiple sources is in order here - effectively putting diminishing returns on stacking more than 1-2 heals from another player.

Making group healing be affected by resistances (including crit resist) is also another option which could be explored.

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Standardising CC animations and CC breaks is also desperately needed, fear and AOE CCs are far more difficult to break and the inability to consistently CC break them is a huge advantage to 12+ man groups spamming AOEs.

That's just the servers being broken AF in general, especially under high load situations.
If ZOS is unable (and/or unwilling) to fix the broken CC abilities such as fears, then they should be completely removed from the game - we hardly need more broken mechanics which never worked properly to begin with.

TequilaFire

You solo guys keep asking for nerfs that gimp yourselves more than what you perceive as a ball group.
You will never stop players that take the time to learn how to play and synergize.

Tommy_The_Gun

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Ballgroups with the healing changes are even stronger and they are basically immune to debuffs given all run and spam purge. So these would heavily impede their ability to roll everyone while spamming 2 skills. All of these changes should be in PvP only

-Make purge self cleanse only
-Make rapid regen self heal only
-Move borrowed time to alliance war skills
-Put a cooldown on res once interupted
-Reduce healing to others by 20%-30% or alternatively incorporate penetration in to healing
-Cap max group size at 12

Standardising CC animations and CC breaks is also desperately needed, fear and AOE CCs are far more difficult to break and the inability to consistently CC break them is a huge advantage to 12+ man groups spamming AOEs.

Tbh. Best way to reduce Ballgroups effectiveness is to make some de-buff via battle spirit, that will be applied "while grouped" (only on players with a group) and will scale with the group size. So small scale will not be affected that much, but full group will be. The problem is that playing in a group is... does it has any drawback at all ?

TequilaFire

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Ballgroups with the healing changes are even stronger and they are basically immune to debuffs given all run and spam purge. So these would heavily impede their ability to roll everyone while spamming 2 skills. All of these changes should be in PvP only

-Make purge self cleanse only
-Make rapid regen self heal only
-Move borrowed time to alliance war skills
-Put a cooldown on res once interupted
-Reduce healing to others by 20%-30% or alternatively incorporate penetration in to healing
-Cap max group size at 12

Standardising CC animations and CC breaks is also desperately needed, fear and AOE CCs are far more difficult to break and the inability to consistently CC break them is a huge advantage to 12+ man groups spamming AOEs.

Tbh. Best way to reduce Ballgroups effectiveness is to make some de-buff via battle spirit, that will be applied "while grouped" (only on players with a group) and will scale with the group size. So small scale will not be affected that much, but full group will be. The problem is that playing in a group is... does it has any drawback at all ?

Dude, Cyro is meant to be played grouped, you guys already took BGs away from us.

ItsJustHashtag

Heal stacking with springs and radiating needs to be limited to 2-3 stacks.

Heal from barrier and cleanse need to be reduced.

maxjapank

The only thing that needs nerfed is Cleanse. An aoe purge that heals a percentage of health. It is the main culprit that allows all ballgroups to run around untouched. They should somehow get rid of it Healing.

ItsJustHashtag

maxjapank wrote: »

The only thing that needs nerfed is Cleanse. An aoe purge that heals a percentage of health. It is the main culprit that allows all ballgroups to run around untouched. They should somehow get rid of it Healing.

Radiating stacking is the main culprit.

DTAmoral

Smh..

I think the only thing you said that came close to making sense was radiating regen.

I will agree this skill needs fixed. Our ball group walks around 10+ stacks of this. I think they need to make it where you can only have 1 stack of this at a time.

If your nerf purge like you want, nobody would run it for any reason. That nerf would just kill the skill all together.

Group size also doesnt matter. lol We do our thing with 10-11 people usually, and we rarely wipe to anyone. Its all coordination.

Putting a cooldown on res would break the game. You already crash, or get stuck in a load screen for 20 mins when you click a keep or tent. Adding a cooldown to res would make more people click on wayshrines, and DC. Maybe if the servers were better this wouldnt be bad.

lastly reducing healing to others is not the answer, it wasnt the answer last time, and we now see it did not really change ball groups, or zergs. All the healing nerf did was hurt small scalers, and solo players. Even if its just a nerf to healing you do to other players, it wouldnt effect ball groups.

There is a reason ball groups do whatever they want in Cyro. They are some of the sweatest players in the game, and they all use what zos gives us to their advantage.

Dagoth_Rac

What about an ultimate or 5-piece set bonus that applies unpurgable Healing Absorption and scales based on number of players hit? Hit 3 or 4 players and the heal absorption is minor. Hit 20 players and they will need to cast through a ton of absorption before they can even start to heal again. Give it a high ultimate cost or a long set cooldown or whatever, but something like that which can give windows of opportunity, where you can do damage to a ball group and not have it instantly purged or healed through.

Major_Lag

TequilaFire wrote: »

You solo guys keep asking for nerfs that gimp yourselves more than what you perceive as a ball group.
You will never stop players that take the time to learn how to play and synergize.

That's why those nerf requests need to be specifically targeted at things that are only useful (and overperforming) in large groups.

Solo/smallscale players don't:

• spam purge every 2nd or 3rd GCD for extended periods of time,
• stack a dozen stacks of radiating or rapid regen, or any other individual HoT,
• spam timestop left and right,
• constantly rotate Barrier casts between half a dozen healers/purgers,
• etc.

All of those things are prime targets for selective nerfing, precisely because of the differences of how they are relevant in solo/smallscale vs large group situations.

Everything else being equal, strong teamwork and good organization will always outperform equal sized groups with considerably worse team play and suboptimal composition.
But currently, the barrier to entry is too low and there is far too much reliance on brainless crossheal stacking and purge (cleanse) spamming.

DTAmoral

@Major_Lag Its not brainless crossheal stacking and purge spamming. It might look that way, but if you ever joined a good ball group you would hear the coms, and understand what is happening.

You cant nerf ball groups. You can fix skills that shouldnt work the way they do sure (Radiating Regen is the main one). However you are never going to beat coordination, and overall sweaty game play. 10 Players that have gone out of their way to figure out the best way to kill random players shouldn't crutched.

If you dont like Ball Groups, dont fight them, you are probably going to lose anyway. If you small scale, or solo then you know not to fight a ball group you stay in your lane. If you are even a somewhat respectable/known small scaler, or solo player most good ball groups leave you alone. They dont care to kill 1 player, they are looking for the other ball groups or zergs to fight.

With every change that comes to ESO ball groups are always looking to see what they can change to get the most impact out of x skill or set.

Good ball groups are top dog in Cyro for a reason. They are sweaty players. Then zergs because a 50 man random zerg is going to beat any small scale, or solo player. Then after that you have your solo, and small scale players. Some of these are fantastic players, and they do really well in an out numbered fight, but at the end of the day your 3 man small scale group isnt going to do much against a zerg, or a ball group. You just have to stay in your lane.

Fawn4287

TequilaFire wrote: »

You solo guys keep asking for nerfs that gimp yourselves more than what you perceive as a ball group.
You will never stop players that take the time to learn how to play and synergize.

Its not actually learning to play and synergise, its literally everyone stacking aoes, spamming purge then ulti dumping in obvious situations. The problem is its not just 18 or 24 peoples shared damage, its their shared healing, and buffs that are broken. I have played in a ball group and easily rolled other ball groups 2-3 times the size, not due to our ball group being good, you just run 3 negates and counter ulti dump. Most (not all) ballgroups are a collection of garbage zerglings that have 30k health and rely on the fact that healing is so easy when you mindlessly stack 20 smart auto HOTs and healers simply hold block the moment things don’t look good. Thank god for the harmony nerf, at least more than 2 people will have to run some actually hard hitting abilities after that.

danthemann5

Did they take the ability to go somewhere else and not get farmed out of the game?

They only do what they do because idiots reward their behavior. Stop feeding them and go where they aren't. Problem solved.

Tammany

TequilaFire wrote: »

Dude, Cyro is meant to be played grouped, you guys already took BGs away from us.

He is not against group teamplay, he is against heal/shield stacking ballgroups are abusing.

DTAmoral

Fawn4287 wrote: »

not due to our ball group being good, you just run 3 negates and counter ulti dump.

Most (not all) ballgroups are a collection of garbage zerglings that have 30k health and rely on the fact that healing is so easy when you mindlessly stack 20 smart auto HOTs and healers simply hold block the moment things don’t look good.

Thank god for the harmony nerf, at least more than 2 people will have to run some actually hard hitting abilities after that.

1, If you have 3 players running negates, and you probably had 2 healers with barrier, then you maybe had 4-5 people running dmg ults, and you still wiped ball groups bigger than you, I would argue that you were a good ball group.

2, I agree you have the 'Meta' ball groups who are all 35k Health, stacking radiating regen, and everyone is wearing harmony. Its not fun to play, its not fun to fight, but its the most effective (meta) Radiating Regen is the only real issue I see with ball groups. They need to make it where players can only have 1 stack of this.

3, Yes harmony is getting nerfed. Ball groups that abused harmony will now have to do something else, that is good.

Fawn4287

danthemann5 wrote: »

Did they take the ability to go somewhere else and not get farmed out of the game?

They only do what they do because idiots reward their behavior. Stop feeding them and go where they aren't. Problem solved.

Unfortunately cyrodil rewards resource capture and hold, nothing else. This means ballgroups gating you in spawn as they keep your 2 home keeps to allow someone to push emp leaves little in the way of counter play or many alternatives.

TequilaFire

Fawn4287 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

You solo guys keep asking for nerfs that gimp yourselves more than what you perceive as a ball group.
You will never stop players that take the time to learn how to play and synergize.

Its not actually learning to play and synergise, its literally everyone stacking aoes, spamming purge then ulti dumping in obvious situations. The problem is its not just 18 or 24 peoples shared damage, its their shared healing, and buffs that are broken. I have played in a ball group and easily rolled other ball groups 2-3 times the size, not due to our ball group being good, you just run 3 negates and counter ulti dump. Most (not all) ballgroups are a collection of garbage zerglings that have 30k health and rely on the fact that healing is so easy when you mindlessly stack 20 smart auto HOTs and healers simply hold block the moment things don’t look good. Thank god for the harmony nerf, at least more than 2 people will have to run some actually hard hitting abilities after that.

You really should try joining a ball group and finding out how wrong you are.
Most good ones are 12 players or less.
What happens is other players follow the ball groups around leeching off their ap so it looks like a zerg.
[Snip]

[Edited for baiting]

Taleof2Cities

TequilaFire wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

You solo guys keep asking for nerfs that gimp yourselves more than what you perceive as a ball group.
You will never stop players that take the time to learn how to play and synergize.

Its not actually learning to play and synergise, its literally everyone stacking aoes, spamming purge then ulti dumping in obvious situations. The problem is its not just 18 or 24 peoples shared damage, its their shared healing, and buffs that are broken. I have played in a ball group and easily rolled other ball groups 2-3 times the size, not due to our ball group being good, you just run 3 negates and counter ulti dump. Most (not all) ballgroups are a collection of garbage zerglings that have 30k health and rely on the fact that healing is so easy when you mindlessly stack 20 smart auto HOTs and healers simply hold block the moment things don’t look good. Thank god for the harmony nerf, at least more than 2 people will have to run some actually hard hitting abilities after that.

You really should try joining a ball group and finding out how wrong you are.
Most good ones are 12 players or less.
What happens is other players follow the ball groups around leeching off their ap so it looks like a zerg.
[Snip]

[Edited for baiting]

@TequilaFire is right.

Before fighting a ball group, consider whether you have sufficient numbers to actually engage the group ... before coming into the forums asking for nerfs.

danthemann5

Fawn4287 wrote: »

danthemann5 wrote: »

Did they take the ability to go somewhere else and not get farmed out of the game?

They only do what they do because idiots reward their behavior. Stop feeding them and go where they aren't. Problem solved.

Unfortunately cyrodil rewards resource capture and hold, nothing else. This means ballgroups gating you in spawn as they keep your 2 home keeps to allow someone to push emp leaves little in the way of counter play or many alternatives.

That's the point at which I turn off ESO and go do something else. I certainly understand your point, but not getting farmed is always an option, and I would argue it's the best option.

maxjapank

ItsJustHashtag wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

The only thing that needs nerfed is Cleanse. An aoe purge that heals a percentage of health. It is the main culprit that allows all ballgroups to run around untouched. They should somehow get rid of it Healing.

Radiating stacking is the main culprit.

No. It’s 100% Cleanse. That’s why every ball group has at least 2 dedicated Cleanse purgers.

ecru

Purges have been OP for a long time, the fact that someone can just spam one ability and basically negate all dots/debuffs on their entire group is hilariously overpowered, especially considering how braindead easy it is to do. I have played basically every MMO and in every other game besides ESO, debuff removal abilities that remove debuffs or dots off of an entire group or raid group are either on long cooldowns if they remove multiple debuffs, or only remove one single debuff if they are spammable (generally on a 1 second gcd). Just being able to spam an ability and negate everything that isn't direct damage is such a weird mechanic and I can't wrap my head around why ZOS lets this kind of gameplay continue. The amount of damage negated from purges can far outpace heals when you consider just how much damage can be negated by removing stacks of dots from a group, which is why spammable, permanent debuff negation isn't a thing in other games.

With individual heals in the trash and cross healing mostly unaffected by the healing nerf (just add another healer or two and you're back where you were last patch), ball groups are thriving on easily farmable players that can barely heal themselves anymore. It's dumb.

DTAmoral wrote: »

Smh..

I think the only thing you said that came close to making sense was radiating regen.

I will agree this skill needs fixed. Our ball group walks around 10+ stacks of this. I think they need to make it where you can only have 1 stack of this at a time.

If your nerf purge like you want, nobody would run it for any reason. That nerf would just kill the skill all together.

Group size also doesnt matter. lol We do our thing with 10-11 people usually, and we rarely wipe to anyone. Its all coordination.

Putting a cooldown on res would break the game. You already crash, or get stuck in a load screen for 20 mins when you click a keep or tent. Adding a cooldown to res would make more people click on wayshrines, and DC. Maybe if the servers were better this wouldnt be bad.

lastly reducing healing to others is not the answer, it wasnt the answer last time, and we now see it did not really change ball groups, or zergs. All the healing nerf did was hurt small scalers, and solo players. Even if its just a nerf to healing you do to other players, it wouldnt effect ball groups.

There is a reason ball groups do whatever they want in Cyro. They are some of the sweatest players in the game, and they all use what zos gives us to their advantage.

You're completely misunderstanding what purges are supposed to be. Purges are not supposed to be an ability that you can slot to prevent your group from ever having any dots or debuffs on them like they are now. This is not and has not ever been a feature in any game in existence until ESO's genius version of Purge was dreamed up. Purge is supposed to be an ability that removes some debuffs off of you and your group. Not all of them. Negating half of the negative damaging (dots) and debuffing effects in the entire game isn't anything close to what these abilities should be capable of. If a few players slotting an ability means that the only thing that could ever put your group in danger is ground aoes or direct damage, there is a problem with that ability.

ShadowProc

Again. Nerf purge Zos. Braindead mechanic. No defense whatsover for it.

Taleof2Cities

ShadowProc wrote: »

Again. Nerf purge Zos. Braindead mechanic. No defense whatsover for it.

Translation:

"I don't like it when ball groups coordinate individual player-character resources for the group as a whole ... [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Tammany

danthemann5 wrote: »

Again. Nerf purge Zos. Braindead mechanic. No defense whatsover for it.

Purge not affecting siege weapon dots would be a good start.
I really doubt developers able to balance purge properly, since any developer with a clue wont make such imbalance skill at all.

pieratsos

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Again. Nerf purge Zos. Braindead mechanic. No defense whatsover for it.

Translation:

"I don't like it when ball groups coordinate individual player-character resources for the group as a whole ... [snip]

[snip] No one is arguing about getting rid of groups or team play or wanting to 1v15 a ball group and win.

The argument is about certain mechanics that are horribly designed and they are broken when they are used in specific ways. An entire group having 35k hp, being immune to debuffs and having infinite healing because u can stack a million hots and have a couple of guys spam purge while also doing hundreds of thousands of dmg by just using synergies is simply broken. Yes it's teamwork and coordination but the actual effect is just broken and thats where the term mindless comes from. Because simply walking around spamming auto hots for infinite healing is just mindless.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

I'd love to see a test week where the dev's implemented everything in this thread just to see the tears when pugs couldn't take a single keep due to siege dmg and still get destroyed by groups lol.

Also it's frustrating to see people really think that any random zergs are ball groups these days. Just because they try and use the same mechanics doesn't stop them from being a zerg.

maxjapank wrote: »

ItsJustHashtag wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

The only thing that needs nerfed is Cleanse. An aoe purge that heals a percentage of health. It is the main culprit that allows all ballgroups to run around untouched. They should somehow get rid of it Healing.

Radiating stacking is the main culprit.

No. It’s 100% Cleanse. That’s why every ball group has at least 2 dedicated Cleanse purgers.

We don't btw.

Tammany

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I'd love to see a test week where the dev's implemented everything in this thread just to see the tears when pugs couldn't take a single keep due to siege dmg and still get destroyed by groups lol.

Implyng pugs spam cleanse and stack heals/shields.
Oh wait, they don't.

Fawn4287

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I'd love to see a test week where the dev's implemented everything in this thread just to see the tears when pugs couldn't take a single keep due to siege dmg and still get destroyed by groups lol.

Also it's frustrating to see people really think that any random zergs are ball groups these days. Just because they try and use the same mechanics doesn't stop them from being a zerg.

maxjapank wrote: »

ItsJustHashtag wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

The only thing that needs nerfed is Cleanse. An aoe purge that heals a percentage of health. It is the main culprit that allows all ballgroups to run around untouched. They should somehow get rid of it Healing.

Radiating stacking is the main culprit.

No. It’s 100% Cleanse. That’s why every ball group has at least 2 dedicated Cleanse purgers.

We don't btw.

I’d love to see a week of only having only your own heals and buffs in PvP, it would be funny seeing all these ball groups players try to play without being on autopilot following crown having a dozen other people do their healing and damage for them

Joinovikova

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Ballgroups with the healing changes are even stronger and they are basically immune to debuffs given all run and spam purge. So these would heavily impede their ability to roll everyone while spamming 2 skills. All of these changes should be in PvP only

-Make purge self cleanse only
-Make rapid regen self heal only
-Move borrowed time to alliance war skills
-Put a cooldown on res once interupted
-Reduce healing to others by 20%-30% or alternatively incorporate penetration in to healing
-Cap max group size at 12

Standardising CC animations and CC breaks is also desperately needed, fear and AOE CCs are far more difficult to break and the inability to consistently CC break them is a huge advantage to 12+ man groups spamming AOEs.

what is need only to make Inevitable Detonation unclearable make less dmg but scale by 100% per hit players with no limit