We should tone down the "different play or significant changes = less skillful or just bad" approach

Nerhesi · August 2020

I dont think that resonates well with anyone. Nor does it actually makes sense - it is an opinion rather than just a fact.The vast majority of feedback we see here is "Don't significantly change the game because it is great and that is what keeps your loyal player base playing! New players are fairweather, etc etc"

Perhaps the last 6+ years have actually been based on pretty flawed combat designs? Which combat (pvp and otherwise) is objectively the most common complaint when you look at reviews and player opinions.

-Weaving/canceling isnt anymore of a skill than not weaving (the vast majority of dps coming from spammable/weaving)
-Having cooldowns can be more of a skill than not having cooldowns.
-Proc sets (with RNG removed) can be just as skillful (You significantly reduce maximum stats for the cost of another bar space ability with a CD)
-Playing the way you want, and lack of stronger rock/paper/scissors isn't objectively better... in fact, it can just as easily be considered a weakness.
-You dont have to have counterplay against every build in pvp. As long as builds have counterplay - they just dont have to be available to you (also known as meta and counter meta). Today there is no counter meta. There is meme, and meta.

Pressing buttons differently, more or less often, to trigger different things, isnt inherently more or less skilled. It is just different. Player agency is what you're looking for - not some bigoted approach that presumes the way I play is somehow more skillbased than yours.

I'm all for massive meta changes in this game that will create more meaningful player choices, roles, and kiss/curse decisions.

Chilly-McFreeze · August 2020

How is not doing a thing more skillful than e.g. weaving?

How is giving up a few k resources a bad thing if the procced damage outclassed anything you lose? Not to mention the 40k health proc builds that are floating around?

How is forcing cooldowns 6 years after release suddenly a good thing?

How is being hardcountered anything but bad design?

How about a massive meta change propose for you: my main class hardcounters yours main class and I proc 13k extra damage by not spending resources via light attacks - all for the cost of what? 300 spell dmg or the likes?

I kinda respect your opinion but sorry, this just hurts reading.

sabresandiego_ESO · August 2020

Most people are biased and cannot see beyond their personal bias. They are also easily conned by videos and the opinions of streamers and elite players.

Very few people can objectively think for themselves and make unbiased rational decisions.

What if something is 10% less skillful but 90% more fun? I personally enjoy the skill factor in these games tremendously, but enjoy the fun factor significantly more. If something slightly lowers the skill floor or even ceiling by a reasonable amount but more than makes up for it in fun factor then it is probably a good game design decision.

The upcoming proc set unleashed terror is the perfect example. That set looks like tons of fun. Many high end players forego gap closers and have for many years: because gap closers can be buggy, unresponsive, and put you in a horrible position strategically, as well as being resource inefficient. This proc set brings new life to these gap closers and opens up all kinds of new build ideas. That to me is fun: and I don’t care if an elitist who is obsessed with measuring skill thinks that it lowers the skill cap.

Crash427 · August 2020

Except proc sets won't be fun when you have 3 or 4 DKs sitting on a flag in a BG with Elf Bane/Grothdarr/Malacath going. You either join the procfest or get melted by it. More homogenization in PVP is not a good thing IMO

Nerhesi · August 2020

You're right in that they will melt people. But so will stamsorcs that are doing it now with masters DW, or nbs running some variant of snipe or magnb, or any of any of the other insta-gib speccs.

The next step would to be make the more you stack spell/wpn damage and or damage speccs, the less resilient you are. The problem isn't the proc sets. It is the game allowing you to be a ridiculous burst build, while being tanky as all hell.

We're not going to get there by pretending there hasn't been a homogeneous pvp environment previously though... (max stats and sustain mix).

montiferus · August 2020

Nerhesi wrote: »

-Weaving/canceling isnt anymore of a skill than not weaving (the vast majority of dps coming from spammable/weaving)

Lol. Are you saying weaving isn't skillful?

Its funny whenever I do a random dungeon and i end up doing 75% of the dps when the other player is max CP I wonder how this is possible. All you need to do is read some of these posts and it tells you everything you need to know.

JohnOfMarkarth · August 2020

montiferus wrote: »

Nerhesi wrote: »

-Weaving/canceling isnt anymore of a skill than not weaving (the vast majority of dps coming from spammable/weaving)

Lol. Are you saying weaving isn't skillful?

Its funny whenever I do a random dungeon and i end up doing 75% of the dps when the other player is max CP I wonder how this is possible. All you need to do is read some of these posts and it tells you everything you need to know.

if am dps with someone who cant weave (and i can and i do) i do see a big dmg % leaning on me... but i dont think that makes me much more skillful. The skill, that people praise, that it takes to weave is not hard enough to be considered a gamechanger in skillfulness ... only in dps.

Its not a big skill. Its not what people praise it to be. Its not truly that. It took me 5 minutes and one single sentence from another player, to learn weaving (this sentence:"Your brain will think that you cancel skill animation with a light attack, but truth is that you cancel a light attack with skill... between each skill, thats how you weave")... True skill is upkeep not weaving. And if someones dps is less than mine... but their upkeep is flawless? I tip my hat to them.I may know a little trick... but they know the game.

So no. I do not think its a "skill" worth pride and praise it recieves. Its very little skill with very big dmg output difference.

SshadowSscale · August 2020

Nerhesi wrote: »

You're right in that they will melt people. But so will stamsorcs that are doing it now with masters DW, or nbs running some variant of snipe or magnb, or any of any of the other insta-gib speccs.

The next step would to be make the more you stack spell/wpn damage and or damage speccs, the less resilient you are. The problem isn't the proc sets. It is the game allowing you to be a ridiculous burst build, while being tanky as all hell.

We're not going to get there by pretending there hasn't been a homogeneous pvp environment previously though... (max stats and sustain mix).

Please no.... Having everyone and their mothers running procs in no cp that can one tap is bad enough..... Don't nerf my weapon and spell damage otherwise procs will be the only viable thing..... And this post seems like someone got killed too many times in pvp and think all the above statements will make the game easier hidden as a this will make the game more skillfull post.... And please stop with massive meta changes I am tired of having to redesign and rebuild my char because zos wants to change everything from the ground up again

SshadowSscale · August 2020

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

montiferus wrote: »

Nerhesi wrote: »

-Weaving/canceling isnt anymore of a skill than not weaving (the vast majority of dps coming from spammable/weaving)

Lol. Are you saying weaving isn't skillful?

Its funny whenever I do a random dungeon and i end up doing 75% of the dps when the other player is max CP I wonder how this is possible. All you need to do is read some of these posts and it tells you everything you need to know.

if am dps with someone who cant weave (and i can and i do) i do see a big dmg % leaning on me... but i dont think that makes me much more skillful. The skill, that people praise, that it takes to weave is not hard enough to be considered a gamechanger in skillfulness ... only in dps.

Its not a big skill. Its not what people praise it to be. Its not truly that. It took me 5 minutes and one single sentence from another player, to learn weaving (this sentence:"Your brain will think that you cancel skill animation with a light attack, but truth is that you cancel a light attack with skill... between each skill, thats how you weave")... True skill is upkeep not weaving. And if someones dps is less than mine... but their upkeep is flawless? I tip my hat to them.I may know a little trick... but they know the game.

So no. I do not think its a "skill" worth pride and praise it recieves. Its very little skill with very big dmg output difference.

Also you do know that animation canceling is not just light attack canceling right?

Sugaroverdose · August 2020

Nerhesi wrote: »

Pressing buttons differently, more or less often, to trigger different things, isnt inherently more or less skilled. It is just different. Player agency is what you're looking for - not some bigoted approach that presumes the way I play is somehow more skillbased than yours.

Well, skill isn't "pushing buttons faster", it's about making build which fit's your play style and utilize it the way that other players can't keep up, yet it doesn't mean that dealing damage with 3 procsets is somehow connected to skill play.

If your playstyle is mash single button and expect that game will do everything for ya, than next update has definitely designed with your opinion in mind, first proctard era did eventually ended(not completely, zos just removed crit damage from procsets) when lots of people dropped the game, we'll see how much ppl will stay in game with second one.

Nerhesi · August 2020

montiferus wrote: »

Also you do know that animation canceling is not just light attack canceling right?

LOL don't waste your time engaging. It is pretty clear that some people enjoy mediocrity. But hey thats why we have minimum wage and menial jobs. [/quote]

This is exactly the sort of bias and logical fallacy you run into. He's even equating a lake skill to the wages earned or "menial" nature of the job.

Here you can see monti basically equating not having his opinion on weaving (or block canceling and so on) as to somehow being unskilled. He's unaware that someone can equally logically make any of the following arguments:

a) Weaving/canceling is a similar skill to the "minimum wage" - meanwhile, weaving/canceling can be easily compared to a learned muscle memory response.
b) That the absence of cooldowns, and the existence of weaving is similar to basically have the skill of knowing how to clean yourself when you dont have toilet paper. It's making the best use out of a flawed system, that is intrinsically less skill based than the other systems.

Nerhesi · August 2020

montiferus wrote: »

Nerhesi wrote: »

-Weaving/canceling isnt anymore of a skill than not weaving (the vast majority of dps coming from spammable/weaving)

Lol. Are you saying weaving isn't skillful?

Its funny whenever I do a random dungeon and i end up doing 75% of the dps when the other player is max CP I wonder how this is possible. All you need to do is read some of these posts and it tells you everything you need to know.

I'm not saying weaving isn't skillful. I'm saying weaving or having a game without weaving, doesnt make any game more or less skillful. It is just different application of skill.

For example, if you do well in ESO now with weaving. Then over the next 6 months they get rid of weaving completely, and you're not doing as well, then the answer is not that they've lowered the skill ceiling. The answer is you failed to adapt to the changing meta.

If you want to argue skill objectively, you have to place yourself in a situation where zero variables exist between you and another person then make that comparison.

casparian · August 2020

Weaving/canceling isnt anymore of a skill than not weaving

It's mechanically more difficult to LA weave and animation cancel than not to do so, and it results in greater performance. "Playstyle A is more difficult and more efficient than playstyle B" seems like a fairly objective thing one might mean by saying that A is "more skillful" than B.

I agree with many of your other points, though. Giving procs a stronger place in the meta, forcing more risk/reward chocies, and changing up how different classes and specs play are not inherently bad things. The issue is not that ZOS is trying to do these things; the issue is that ZOS is going about it so badly that they're on a collision course for several mistakes:

- Making combat slower and less action-oriented. Good for you if you enjoy slower, more WoW-like combat, but ESO has always been The MMO Without Cooldowns, and regardless of whether or not you enjoy the change you have to acknowledge that it strikes down one of ESO's most consistent distinctives.
- Empowering the Damage Tank meta. Depending on how they balance procs, we could easily end up in a situation next patch where 45k-health infinite-sustain builds with massive damage exist. Empowering builds like this actually takes away from player agency, as I can't "play what I want" if no matter what choices I make I'm just going to run into a 45k health brick wall that puts 20k DOTs on me with their light attacks.
- Gear-gating playstyles instead of having a balanced gating system for different playstyles. If I want to be a 1vXer, or main BGs, or be a large-group healer, or whatever, it ought to be the case that I need to progress on several fronts in order to achieve that goal: gear acquisition for sure, but also personal skill and social progression (e.g. gaining the trust of a guild or making friends who can help me practice and learn). In a proc meta, gear acquisition comes dramatically to outweigh the other two.

I’m still cautiously optimistic that something good will come of all this. But your view just seems a bit too Pollyanna to me.

sabresandiego_ESO · August 2020

People that constantly cry about skill and proc sets think that the only thing this game revolves around is their own biased assessment of skill. They don't realize that the majority of the player base plays this game for fun, not for their ego and not to measure their skill. They also don't realize that there is no build in the game that plays the game for you. Proc sets might allow you to do more damage with a light attack or a single ability, but they don't play the game for you: that's a fake narrative promoted by alarmists. Procs slightly raise the skill floor, and add variety to the game. Most of all, they are fun.

Sugaroverdose · August 2020

Nerhesi wrote: »

montiferus wrote: »

Nerhesi wrote: »

-Weaving/canceling isnt anymore of a skill than not weaving (the vast majority of dps coming from spammable/weaving)

Lol. Are you saying weaving isn't skillful?

Its funny whenever I do a random dungeon and i end up doing 75% of the dps when the other player is max CP I wonder how this is possible. All you need to do is read some of these posts and it tells you everything you need to know.

I'm not saying weaving isn't skillful. I'm saying weaving or having a game without weaving, doesnt make any game more or less skillful. It is just different application of skill.

For example, if you do well in ESO now with weaving. Then over the next 6 months they get rid of weaving completely, and you're not doing as well, then the answer is not that they've lowered the skill ceiling. The answer is you failed to adapt to the changing meta.

If you want to argue skill objectively, you have to place yourself in a situation where zero variables exist between you and another person then make that comparison.

If game removes manual control(weaving) and adds automatic replacement(procsets) it's always lowers skill celling. It's not "different", one of player controls is just removed.

You don't understand simple thing, people are concerned that game does not gives a choice, everybody are forced to utilise procsets, does it means that you for instance will kill them easier in PvP? No, it doesn't, people just don't like that half of damage appears out of nowhere.

JohnOfMarkarth · August 2020

montiferus wrote: »

SshadowSscale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

montiferus wrote: »

Nerhesi wrote: »

-Weaving/canceling isnt anymore of a skill than not weaving (the vast majority of dps coming from spammable/weaving)

Lol. Are you saying weaving isn't skillful?

Its funny whenever I do a random dungeon and i end up doing 75% of the dps when the other player is max CP I wonder how this is possible. All you need to do is read some of these posts and it tells you everything you need to know.

if am dps with someone who cant weave (and i can and i do) i do see a big dmg % leaning on me... but i dont think that makes me much more skillful. The skill, that people praise, that it takes to weave is not hard enough to be considered a gamechanger in skillfulness ... only in dps.

Its not a big skill. Its not what people praise it to be. Its not truly that. It took me 5 minutes and one single sentence from another player, to learn weaving (this sentence:"Your brain will think that you cancel skill animation with a light attack, but truth is that you cancel a light attack with skill... between each skill, thats how you weave")... True skill is upkeep not weaving. And if someones dps is less than mine... but their upkeep is flawless? I tip my hat to them.I may know a little trick... but they know the game.

So no. I do not think its a "skill" worth pride and praise it recieves. Its very little skill with very big dmg output difference.

Also you do know that animation canceling is not just light attack canceling right?

[Quoted post was removed]

If i wanted to mention ac, i would have. Or is it compulsory to talk about ac-ing when talking about la weaving.I think not.

pieratsos · August 2020

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Most people are biased and cannot see beyond their personal bias. They are also easily conned by videos and the opinions of streamers and elite players.

Very few people can objectively think for themselves and make unbiased rational decisions.

What if something is 10% less skillful but 90% more fun? I personally enjoy the skill factor in these games tremendously, but enjoy the fun factor significantly more. If something slightly lowers the skill floor or even ceiling by a reasonable amount but more than makes up for it in fun factor then it is probably a good game design decision.

The upcoming proc set unleashed terror is the perfect example. That set looks like tons of fun. Many high end players forego gap closers and have for many years: because gap closers can be buggy, unresponsive, and put you in a horrible position strategically, as well as being resource inefficient. This proc set brings new life to these gap closers and opens up all kinds of new build ideas. That to me is fun: and I don’t care if an elitist who is obsessed with measuring skill thinks that it lowers the skill cap.

Talking about bias and closing the post with "that to me is fun".

You should probably listen to ur own advice.

nublife01 · August 2020

Crash427 wrote: »

Except proc sets won't be fun when you have 3 or 4 DKs sitting on a flag in a BG with Elf Bane/Grothdarr/Malacath going. You either join the procfest or get melted by it. More homogenization in PVP is not a good thing IMO

lol magdk's are already the strongest class/resource in the game right now just because of malacath. as a stamblade the only way im killing one of those duders is by confusing them with an immovable pot or escapist poison proc. they do so much damage that even through a full 4 second vigor you're either going to have enough time to kill them or sit their fossilize cc before i need to probably gtfo and heal. honestly i bet if you slot fossilize on both bars and roll your head on your keyboard you could still probably get positive results with one in pvp.

nublife01 · August 2020

also the patches i played that proc sets were meta there was a much wider gap between skillful and casual players in pvp than there is now. 1vx'ing was very rampant. also honestly they made my stamblade pretty busted.

yall shouldn't be looking at the dot proc sets coming out though. yall should be looking at what a magblade is going to be able to do with the torug's pact change, caluurion's legacy, and a master's inferno staff. why wait 20 seconds for a dot to kill someone when you can kill them in a global.

VaranisArano · August 2020

Nerhesi wrote: »

I'm all for massive meta changes in this game that will create more meaningful player choices, roles, and kiss/curse decisions.

You will continue to get massive meta changes, but not for the reasons you want.

Constant changes, both major and minor, is a hallmark of Horizontal Progression. It's a cheap way of keeping power creep in check, shaking up the meta to prevent the game from becoming stagnant, and getting players to grind and regrind.

But will it ever "create more meaningful player choices, roles, and kiss/curse decisions?"

Only if you don't care about the meta (and by extension, content that requires the meta.)
Thing is, horizontal progression requires constant change. Any nail that sticks too far out gets hammered down to prevent power creep and shake up the meta (ex. Thrassians). It never adds to the meta, only creates a new one in any content or groups that require the meta. There is no "meaningful choice" to the meta, only what's most effective in a given situation.

Expecting changes to the meta to create meaningful choices and options for players is a contradiction. At best, horizontal progression adds more options for players who don't care about the meta, while shaking up the meta for those who do.

sabresandiego_ESO · August 2020

pieratsos wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Most people are biased and cannot see beyond their personal bias. They are also easily conned by videos and the opinions of streamers and elite players.

Very few people can objectively think for themselves and make unbiased rational decisions.

What if something is 10% less skillful but 90% more fun? I personally enjoy the skill factor in these games tremendously, but enjoy the fun factor significantly more. If something slightly lowers the skill floor or even ceiling by a reasonable amount but more than makes up for it in fun factor then it is probably a good game design decision.

The upcoming proc set unleashed terror is the perfect example. That set looks like tons of fun. Many high end players forego gap closers and have for many years: because gap closers can be buggy, unresponsive, and put you in a horrible position strategically, as well as being resource inefficient. This proc set brings new life to these gap closers and opens up all kinds of new build ideas. That to me is fun: and I don’t care if an elitist who is obsessed with measuring skill thinks that it lowers the skill cap.

Talking about bias and closing the post with "that to me is fun".

You should probably listen to ur own advice.

The difference is that I know I am biased, and openly admit it. That’s why I used the statement: That to me is fun. I think proc sets are fun for the majority of players. They add cool new mechanics and animations. Simple stat buffs are kind of vanilla . That is also bias.

The opposing side does not admit any bias at all, they speak as if there is absolute truth that nobody likes proc sets, and that procs remove skill; when that’s either not true or an exaggeration.

Chilly-McFreeze · August 2020

When a simple light attack can proc 20k+ of extra damage through 2 proc sets, which I otherwise would only output via a ~3 skill combo + weaving, then yes, I think it removes a great bit of skill.

Nontheless, I doubt ZOS will shy away from their proc meta. So have fun while it lasts. Or at least until it starts bothering you as well.

pieratsos · August 2020

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Most people are biased and cannot see beyond their personal bias. They are also easily conned by videos and the opinions of streamers and elite players.

Very few people can objectively think for themselves and make unbiased rational decisions.

What if something is 10% less skillful but 90% more fun? I personally enjoy the skill factor in these games tremendously, but enjoy the fun factor significantly more. If something slightly lowers the skill floor or even ceiling by a reasonable amount but more than makes up for it in fun factor then it is probably a good game design decision.

The upcoming proc set unleashed terror is the perfect example. That set looks like tons of fun. Many high end players forego gap closers and have for many years: because gap closers can be buggy, unresponsive, and put you in a horrible position strategically, as well as being resource inefficient. This proc set brings new life to these gap closers and opens up all kinds of new build ideas. That to me is fun: and I don’t care if an elitist who is obsessed with measuring skill thinks that it lowers the skill cap.

Talking about bias and closing the post with "that to me is fun".

You should probably listen to ur own advice.

The difference is that I know I am biased, and openly admit it. That’s why I used the statement: That to me is fun. I think proc sets are fun for the majority of players. They add cool new mechanics and animations. Simple stat buffs are kind of vanilla . That is also bias.

The opposing side does not admit any bias at all, they speak as if there is absolute truth that nobody likes proc sets, and that procs remove skill; when that’s either not true or an exaggeration.

Except you never admitted bias. You actually called people elitists or whatever, claimed to be talking for the majority of people, call other people's arguments fake news etc.

The opposing side is talking with actual arguments and try to prove what they claim is right. Whether there is bias involved is a different discussion but at least they are approaching the matter in the right way. The only thing u are doing is say "but it's fun" "u are an elitist" "this is fake news" etc.

Again, maybe you should listen to ur own advice.

SshadowSscale · August 2020

pieratsos wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Most people are biased and cannot see beyond their personal bias. They are also easily conned by videos and the opinions of streamers and elite players.

Very few people can objectively think for themselves and make unbiased rational decisions.

What if something is 10% less skillful but 90% more fun? I personally enjoy the skill factor in these games tremendously, but enjoy the fun factor significantly more. If something slightly lowers the skill floor or even ceiling by a reasonable amount but more than makes up for it in fun factor then it is probably a good game design decision.

The upcoming proc set unleashed terror is the perfect example. That set looks like tons of fun. Many high end players forego gap closers and have for many years: because gap closers can be buggy, unresponsive, and put you in a horrible position strategically, as well as being resource inefficient. This proc set brings new life to these gap closers and opens up all kinds of new build ideas. That to me is fun: and I don’t care if an elitist who is obsessed with measuring skill thinks that it lowers the skill cap.

Talking about bias and closing the post with "that to me is fun".

You should probably listen to ur own advice.

The difference is that I know I am biased, and openly admit it. That’s why I used the statement: That to me is fun. I think proc sets are fun for the majority of players. They add cool new mechanics and animations. Simple stat buffs are kind of vanilla . That is also bias.

The opposing side does not admit any bias at all, they speak as if there is absolute truth that nobody likes proc sets, and that procs remove skill; when that’s either not true or an exaggeration.

Except you never admitted bias. You actually called people elitists or whatever, claimed to be talking for the majority of people, call other people's arguments fake news etc.

The opposing side is talking with actual arguments and try to prove what they claim is right. Whether there is bias involved is a different discussion but at least they are approaching the matter in the right way. The only thing u are doing is say "but it's fun" "u are an elitist" "this is fake news" etc.

Again, maybe you should listen to ur own advice.

Yeah don't waste your time.... Someone who does not care to listen snd actually debate with facts will not car wether they are right or wrong.

sabresandiego_ESO · August 2020

It’s quite obvious who is right. This game is a business and people vote with their wallet, not by who’s loudest on the forums.

If most people didn’t like proc sets, why would Zenimax keep adding them? Why would they add content that people don’t want?

Because the truth is that most people do like proc sets. They add newness to the game, they change game mechanics. If I was wrong, then Zenimax has a horrible business model.

Most people that play this game are not elite pvp purists who are constantly measuring their “skill”. Most people are casual pve and pvp players who enjoy trying new builds or watching cool animations from different setups. This game is about fun and people vote with their wallet

MashmalloMan · August 2020

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

It’s quite obvious who is right. This game is a business and people vote with their wallet, not by who’s loudest on the forums.

If most people didn’t like proc sets, why would Zenimax keep adding them? Why would they add content that people don’t want?

Because the truth is that most people do like proc sets. They add newness to the game, they change game mechanics. If I was wrong, then Zenimax has a horrible business model.

Most people that play this game are not elite pvp purists who are constantly measuring their “skill”. Most people are casual pve and pvp players who enjoy trying new builds or watching cool animations from different setups. This game is about fun and people vote with their wallet

I like proc sets, I think they're interesting and help add some extra sense of identity to your build and class, especially since there is only 12 skill slots, in many ways, your sets serve as additional skills or buffs to your existing skills.

They also help cover aspects of a class that may be lacking.. like how stam sorcs don't have any real delayed burst skill. Makes sets that provide some form of delayed burst help round out the class instead of relying on Dizzy spam all day long.

I also search for sets that have cool effects that line up with the class I'm building it for, higher uptime, lower cooldown, big synergies on the rest of the skills, etc. Themeatic sets like Selene's on Warden, Stormfist on Stam Sorc (pve obvi), Grothdar on Mag DK, etc..

What I don't want is everyone running proc sets because it's the best way to melt people. The viper/sload/scalebreaker/master dw dot proccing enchants were garbage to play through.

Proc sets shouldn't be a carry. The reason this has become an issue is:

Skills have become weaker and weaker over time, especially dots being at a low AF standard, low return on investment.
Healing nerfed accross the board instead of tackling the real issues with stronger classes or groups, low return on investment.
Malacath Band avoids crit resist and provides synergy for low crit builds like Heavy Armor or in no CP for a large and reliable damage boost. There is next to no real cost, higher armor in heavy, higher damage with proc sets, more hp regen in heavy, no crit rng and 1 less factor mitigating your damage, high return on investment.

The biggest factors holding proc sets back are no longer as much of an issue.

I do find it funny how broad of a term "proc" really is. Everyone seems to claim they hate them, but it's obvious that we only seem to hate damage based proc sets. Bloodspawn, Engine Guardian, Fury, 7th Legion, Stuhn's, list goes on and on. It's very rare that I've ever seen someone with a pure static stat build, often times they're magicka stacking for shields.. which just became less of a requirement since you get opt for higher spell damage sets that are available.

I'm willing to bet over 90% of the games sets are considered under the proc set category. OP brings up some good points, but bad ones too, I'd say more input from the player to kill an opponent does result in requiring a higher skill level.. It's kind of basic math. Theres other factors of course, but sometimes things ARE overtuned.

In this patch, it feels that way as a result of context with the other parts of the game. If abilities and healing were stronger, I don't think this would be a discussion.

Sanctum74 · August 2020

Toning down comments doesn’t make it any less true, but please tell me how proc sets and not learning basic mechanics like weaving is more skillful. Im willing to learn...

Fawn4287 · August 2020

-Proc sets (with RNG removed) can be just as skillful (You significantly reduce maximum stats for the cost of another bar space ability with a CD)

This isn’t the case at all, this is the same issue that the live version of the harmony trait provides, currently magnecros can run around with a resto/sword and board, have 28k health and still have the ability to wipe groups. What is lost in that build? You’ve sacrificed 2.7k mag (which with necropotence is nothing) to gain the ability to drop a 20k damage ability that heals you for the damage done. Proc sets are even worse, if damage is not forcing you to stack max stats and weapon/spell damage, why stack it at all? You can run around with a resto/sword and board, malacaths, stack 45k health, and your proc sets still hit as hard as someone who runs 22k health stacking max mag or spell damage with a destro. Proc sets are not just afk free damage for light attacks(Which cost the user nothing) but they bypass the concept of needing max stats to do damage, this will be the absolute worst PvP patch yet, the entire game will be large groups stacking health with proc sets doing 90% of damage and essentially light/heavy attacking each other to death.

Crash427 · August 2020

MashmalloMan wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

It’s quite obvious who is right. This game is a business and people vote with their wallet, not by who’s loudest on the forums.

If most people didn’t like proc sets, why would Zenimax keep adding them? Why would they add content that people don’t want?

Because the truth is that most people do like proc sets. They add newness to the game, they change game mechanics. If I was wrong, then Zenimax has a horrible business model.

Most people that play this game are not elite pvp purists who are constantly measuring their “skill”. Most people are casual pve and pvp players who enjoy trying new builds or watching cool animations from different setups. This game is about fun and people vote with their wallet

I like proc sets, I think they're interesting and help add some extra sense of identity to your build and class, especially since there is only 12 skill slots, in many ways, your sets serve as additional skills or buffs to your existing skills.

They also help cover aspects of a class that may be lacking.. like how stam sorcs don't have any real delayed burst skill. Makes sets that provide some form of delayed burst help round out the class instead of relying on Dizzy spam all day long.

I also search for sets that have cool effects that line up with the class I'm building it for, higher uptime, lower cooldown, big synergies on the rest of the skills, etc. Themeatic sets like Selene's on Warden, Stormfist on Stam Sorc (pve obvi), Grothdar on Mag DK, etc..

What I don't want is everyone running proc sets because it's the best way to melt people. The viper/sload/scalebreaker/master dw dot proccing enchants were garbage to play through.

Proc sets shouldn't be a carry. The reason this has become an issue is:
Skills have become weaker and weaker over time, especially dots being at a low AF standard, low return on investment.

Healing nerfed accross the board instead of tackling the real issues with stronger classes or groups, low return on investment.

Malacath Band avoids crit resist and provides synergy for low crit builds like Heavy Armor or in no CP for a large and reliable damage boost. There is next to no real cost, higher armor in heavy, higher damage with proc sets, more hp regen in heavy, no crit rng and 1 less factor mitigating your damage, high return on investment.

The biggest factors holding proc sets back are no longer as much of an issue.

I do find it funny how broad of a term "proc" really is. Everyone seems to claim they hate them, but it's obvious that we only seem to hate damage based proc sets. Bloodspawn, Engine Guardian, Fury, 7th Legion, Stuhn's, list goes on and on. It's very rare that I've ever seen someone with a pure static stat build, often times they're magicka stacking for shields.. which just became less of a requirement since you get opt for higher spell damage sets that are available.

I'm willing to bet over 90% of the games sets are considered under the proc set category. OP brings up some good points, but bad ones too, I'd say more input from the player to kill an opponent does result in requiring a higher skill level.. It's kind of basic math. Theres other factors of course, but sometimes things ARE overtuned.

In this patch, it feels that way as a result of context with the other parts of the game. If abilities and healing were stronger, I don't think this would be a discussion.

So much this. I like proc sets being a viable choice to offer options. Making it so that damage dealing proc sets are the best option and almost impossible to beat with anything else sucks.

I think part of the problem is that there is a new crop of players that weren't around for the viper/sloads days, or any of the other previous nonsense, yet they still think they have everything figured out. Not directing that towards anyone here but just a thing I've noticed a lot on the forums lately.

Strider__Roshin · August 2020

I'd rather them tone down the hand holding and the dumbing down of combat.

Kadoin · August 2020

Fact of the matter is, few stat builds on live can even compete with proc ones, and the next patch they will cement the superiority of proc builds with the "AoE tests," terrible overall balance changes to classes, that stupid blanket heal nerf that affects stat builds more than proc ones, and buffs to proc sets.

Anyone that cannot see that must be blind or simply has no idea how to actually build anything in the game.