Gender-locked Items

Everstorm · August 2020

DTStormfox wrote: »

I agree with SlimeBro1
Why is this even a topic of discussion? Why care that some hairstyles, facial hair, or costumes are bound to genders?

I find the question why some people reacts so [snip] at the idea of women with beards or guys in dresses much more interesting.
Never understood why those people care so much about what other people do/like. As long as nobody gets hurts and nobody is forces to do anything against their will it's really none of your business to force your views on others.

(Not specifically aimed at the quoted poster)

[edited for profanity]

Michae · August 2020

DTStormfox wrote: »

I agree with SlimeBro1
Why is this even a topic of discussion? Why care that some hairstyles, facial hair, or costumes are bound to genders?

Why care about anything really?

I didn't make this thread, it's not really a big issue for me. But arguments like this really rub me the wrong way. Everybody has different idea of fun in this game. The fact that you don't care about this particular issue doesn't invalidate someone else caring. Someone making a thread on that doesn't mean that's the most pressing matter in their eyes either.

"Why is it even a topic? Why care?"

You could say that about anything in ESO really.
"There's lag in Cyrodiil - Why care?"
"The game's too easy - Why care?"
"I want a wamasu mount - Why care?"
etc.

Will ZOS make the changes? Probably not. Is it some statement from them regarding some politics? Not really since almost all new adornments and hairstyles aren't gender locked, only the oldest one are. But there's really no harm in voicing that issue, this is what the forums are for. We don't have to agree, we can argue but the least we could do is to acknowledge that someone cares enough to voice their issue and that they made some arguments. So argue the points made or move on. There's really no need for gaslighting here.

TokenIntellect · August 2020

I think it's absolutely appalling the amount of privilege on display: those that are perfectly fine with the way things are cannot imagine that other people might have the audacity to have a different opinion.

Letting somebody wear a beard or headband takes absolutely nothing. It doesn't deprive you of being able to enforce gender norms on your slew of alts. It doesn't break models or cause issues any worse than crotch flaps and shoulders already do, despite what some people claim. It doesn't destroy immersion any more than an orc in a wedding dress already does. And as other people have already pointed out: it's a fantasy game!

So, ZOS, how about it? Why not? I think removing the restrictions is a great idea. But that might just be because I'd look gorgeous.

DTStormfox · August 2020

Everstorm wrote: »

I find the question why some people reacts so butthurt at the idea of women with beards or guys in dresses much more interesting.
Never understood why those people care so much about what other people do/like. As long as nobody gets hurts and nobody is forces to do anything against their will it's really none of your business to force your views on others.

(Not specifically aimed at the quoted poster)

You assume people are reacting butthurt. You assume people care much about what other people do/like. You assume people are forcing views on others. Your reply says more about you than about me or anyone else questioning why this even is a topic of discussion.

emilyhyoyeon · August 2020

DTStormfox wrote: »

Everstorm wrote: »

I find the question why some people reacts so butthurt at the idea of women with beards or guys in dresses much more interesting.
Never understood why those people care so much about what other people do/like. As long as nobody gets hurts and nobody is forces to do anything against their will it's really none of your business to force your views on others.

(Not specifically aimed at the quoted poster)

You assume people are reacting butthurt. You assume people care much about what other people do/like. You assume people are forcing views on others. Your reply says more about you than about me or anyone else questioning why this even is a topic of discussion.

I mean all of those deductions are kinda appropriately assumed based on how some people in the thread are responding. That's how communication/reading works, you read and then interpret the words you just read.

I also support not gender locking anything. I really think the female locking of the tiara was simply as others have said to balance out the male-only beard. We've had female/male circlets, but not female/male beards yet so I think they just slapped on one fem only and one male only reward quickly, instead of deliberately trying to enforce ''only women wear jewelry,'' thankfully, but I wish they would change it here.

kargen27 · August 2020

DTStormfox wrote: »

I agree with SlimeBro1
Why is this even a topic of discussion? Why care that some hairstyles, facial hair, or costumes are bound to genders?

There is a couple of hair styles that are female only in game that I would like to use on a male character. Not a priority at all but still would be appreciated if a change was made.

Aendruu · August 2020

Danikat wrote: »

Aendruu wrote: »

When I began playing, I made the mistake of purchasing the adornments cosmetic pack without realising I could check its contents first for the items' compatibility with my race and gender. Needless to say I was disappointed to find how much of that pack was therefore unusable, particularly the jewellery; it seems ridiculous that various circlets and earrings are gender-specific.

Also, what in Oblivion inspired ZOS to have the female-only Seastone Browplate as a daily reward this month?

I suspect they decided to include the beard, realised they'd get tons of complaints if they made a reward that only male characters can use (many ESO players only have 1 character) so they picked an unreleased jewellery design and arbitrarily made it female-only to balance it out.

I'm embarrassed to admit that I sincerely thought the beard was in fact a bust (statuette)... as is evident from my original post, I really need to pay more attention! Thanks for pointing this out, @Danikat.

Raudgrani · August 2020

Michae wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

As for BEARDS, only "*** carriers" can have them in real life. In the few cases where we have hormonal imbalances and women have facial hair, I think a very thin "old shaolin monk" style beard is the best they can do. So I mean, "gender preference" and all - but those who were not physically born to have a beard, won't have any - unless they undergo heavy hormonal therapy for years, and in the end they will have a soft and pretty thin beard anyway.

In magical world with dragons, unicorns and people transforming into many things you draw the line at beards on woomen because that's unrealistic? XD As I said, fake beards exist, and in Tamriel magic and magical curses do exist too. So attaching a beard to a lady shouldn't really be a challenge to a skilled mage or craftsman.

Raudgrani wrote: »

Regarding clothing, I have never had a problem to put a "CIS female" costume on a male character; not that I have ever worn any on them - just briefly while looking through what costumes I have.
There might be a few things, like these flowers you can have in your hair, that you can't equip on a male character. But on the other hand, I can't use all khajiit/argonian adornments on human/mer races either.

This feels suspiciously more like a real world political statement, masquerading as an "in-game-problem". I have seen many *** type characters around all over the game, so I can hardly see this is a huge problem. By all means, express your concerns - but can we please have the staff work on actual functionality/performance problems instead? And the actual GLITCHES we have with some costumes and such?

Seems like whataboutism to me. Sure, there are bugs and such in this game but no one's saying here that gender locked items are the biggest problem about ESO. There are always several threads going on about lag, servers and general bugs, one thread about something else doesn't really hurt anyone, and also it's not like the same team works on adornments and servers.

As for "this feeling suspiciously like real world political statement", what else can people say for you to believe them it's not? I already said, it's not some PC issue for me, I really have no horse in this race, except for wanting more customisation options.

I have heard those kind of arguments before "In a world of dragons and bla bla...", as some kind of defense for just about anything. Yeah sure - but nothing whatsoever have suggested to me, that these basic human functions should be any different. [snip]

As comparison, it's a little like when a guy thought siege weapons did too much damage to players, and I was like "You know how many ranks of enemy soldiers a ballista bolt goes straight through? No?", and he was like "Dude, I'm shooting beams out of my palms, there are elves - this is not the real world!", and I went like "Well. Whatever. But there are ballistas in our world, and this one. I can't see the reason why they should be significantly different".

I don't really care tbf, but I still can't see the problem. We could apply the same "whataboutism" and "in a magical world with dragons" rhetoric, and say "maybe the unisex kind of jewelry/hairstyles and what not is not a part of this world".
Perhaps it's so easy, that some parts of characters are gender specific (like head shape), and certain hair styles etc. don't fit both. I doubt they will "re-do" these, and as some pointed out - newer haircuts seems to suit both.

[edited for trolling]

Sylvermynx · August 2020

Eh, we already have clipping in quantity in armor. And some of the "universal" stuff doesn't fit every head shape - like the Dragondancer's Circlet. It honestly doesn't fit ANYONE very well.

I'm okay with whatever. Gender-neutral or not. I look at stuff on my characters, and if it's good, yay. If not, no. And if I can't use it on the op gender, oh well.

Of course, I've never really wanted beards on my girls, or dresses (other than robes) on my guys....

Michae · August 2020

Raudgrani wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

As for BEARDS, only "*** carriers" can have them in real life. In the few cases where we have hormonal imbalances and women have facial hair, I think a very thin "old shaolin monk" style beard is the best they can do. So I mean, "gender preference" and all - but those who were not physically born to have a beard, won't have any - unless they undergo heavy hormonal therapy for years, and in the end they will have a soft and pretty thin beard anyway.

In magical world with dragons, unicorns and people transforming into many things you draw the line at beards on woomen because that's unrealistic? XD As I said, fake beards exist, and in Tamriel magic and magical curses do exist too. So attaching a beard to a lady shouldn't really be a challenge to a skilled mage or craftsman.

Raudgrani wrote: »

Regarding clothing, I have never had a problem to put a "CIS female" costume on a male character; not that I have ever worn any on them - just briefly while looking through what costumes I have.
There might be a few things, like these flowers you can have in your hair, that you can't equip on a male character. But on the other hand, I can't use all khajiit/argonian adornments on human/mer races either.

This feels suspiciously more like a real world political statement, masquerading as an "in-game-problem". I have seen many *** type characters around all over the game, so I can hardly see this is a huge problem. By all means, express your concerns - but can we please have the staff work on actual functionality/performance problems instead? And the actual GLITCHES we have with some costumes and such?

Seems like whataboutism to me. Sure, there are bugs and such in this game but no one's saying here that gender locked items are the biggest problem about ESO. There are always several threads going on about lag, servers and general bugs, one thread about something else doesn't really hurt anyone, and also it's not like the same team works on adornments and servers.

As for "this feeling suspiciously like real world political statement", what else can people say for you to believe them it's not? I already said, it's not some PC issue for me, I really have no horse in this race, except for wanting more customisation options.

I have heard those kind of arguments before "In a world of dragons and bla bla...", as some kind of defense for just about anything. Yeah sure - but nothing whatsoever have suggested to me, that these basic human functions should be any different. This is after all Elder Scrolls, not Teletubbies.

As comparison, it's a little like when a guy thought siege weapons did too much damage to players, and I was like "You know how many ranks of enemy soldiers a ballista bolt goes straight through? No?", and he was like "Dude, I'm shooting beams out of my palms, there are elves - this is not the real world!", and I went like "Well. Whatever. But there are ballistas in our world, and this one. I can't see the reason why they should be significantly different".

I don't really care tbf, but I still can't see the problem. We could apply the same "whataboutism" and "in a magical world with dragons" rhetoric, and say "maybe the unisex kind of jewelry/hairstyles and what not is not a part of this world".
Perhaps it's so easy, that some parts of characters are gender specific (like head shape), and certain hair styles etc. don't fit both. I doubt they will "re-do" these, and as some pointed out - newer haircuts seems to suit both.

Heh, but my explanation wasn't just "in magical world with dragons", ok? The game presents us with some magical realism and we just accept it as it is. With your ballista example we're shown how ballista works in TES and it is how it is, regardless of the real world ones. It's like arguing that the Sun in TES universe is a massive ball of gas despite knowing that in this game it's a literal hole in the sky. So I was talking about specific part of this magical reality, namely body transformations, which are plenty in this game, seen both as cosmetic items and as in game quest occurences. You get transformed into skeletons, other people, mechanical mice and such. So all I'm saying is that transforming someone's appearance beyond the biological laws is certainly possible, ok? So the argument "in real world ladies don't have beards" doesn't really hold water for me and my response isn't simply "in magical world anything goes", it's rather "the rules set up in TES universe would allow it based on previous examples". And I'm sure if you met a bearded lady in some quest that said she was magically changed by some mean wizard you'd just accept it as the occurence possible in Tamriel and move on. I'm really not advocating here for "females in Tamriel naturally can grow beards because in magical world anything goes". I'm saying that the rules of the world we've seen so far allow for attaching a beard to a lady, be it making a fake beard or using magic to transform an unbearded person into a bearded one or making an illusion of person having a beard when he/she doesn't have one, since it's possible to modify someones appearance to even greater extent and we have examples of that shown throughout the game.

And as for the real world example, women like Harnaam Kaur show it is possible even in our real world for a female to grow beard, it's just extremely uncommon and I accept that it can be omitted as a part of Tamriel's biological reality.

All in all I don't really need beard on females in ESO and I honestly doubt that ZOS will make all those adornments, hairstyles and beards retroactively unisex. I don't think it's a big issue, and it's not really that important, although I wouldn't be opposed to that if ZOS decided to do it, especially since I'd be interestend in having few of those hairstyles on my characters. I'm just arguing here bacause it's a forum and I didn't find that particular argument compelling and because I don't really see the harm in giving those who want it an option to use it. Maybe it's just me but many negative responses to this topic (as in those against making gender exclusive items unisex) sound angry and I think that's why I engaged in this discussion at all. If that's just my projection then I'm sorry, I really have nothing against anyone arguing here personally, I'm just disagreeing with the arguments presented.

EDIT: I noticed one mistake and I wanted to correct it.

Arunei · August 2020

Raudgrani wrote: »

This feels suspiciously more like a real world political statement, masquerading as an "in-game-problem". I have seen many *** type characters around all over the game, so I can hardly see this is a huge problem. By all means, express your concerns - but can we please have the staff work on actual functionality/performance problems instead? And the actual GLITCHES we have with some costumes and such?

Are you serious with this right now? Like 100% serious? Dude it's an MMO, where customizing your character is one of the big appeals to people. There are people who spend hours getting a look they want down. This has nothing to do with real world political statements and the fact that you're saying you feel like it does says a lot more about you than those of us who just want more customization options (especially because the gender locks on most of the cosmetics make NO SENSE, and I highly doubt it's because of model limitations if they can make a dress fit to male bodies, which are drastically more different than the difference between male and female head/face models).

Regarding your point about "why do you care" that you, @DTStormfox, and @SlimeBro1 seem to share; maybe you guys should realize it's a public forum and people are allowed to bring up ideas and topics about things you might not care about? Just like you guys might make threads and posts about certain topics others don't care about. What you consider important isn't inherently actually more important than what others care about, and something a lot of people tend to forget is the team who works on cosmetics and stuff isn't the same team as the one doing bug fixes and handling other parts of the game. So please, stop trying to make other people feel like they aren't allowed or welcome to make threads about stuff they care about just because you think it's less important. If you don't like or care about a particular topic then you don't need to read it, and it certainly doesn't add anything constructive or useful to just post "lol who cares" or "this doesn't matter".

Edit because I pinged the wrong person at first (my bad) and also to add to Raudgrani that your example of "not able to use all Beast things on all Mer/Men" example is also not really relevant here. The thread is about gender locked items, not race locked ones, which make a bit more sense.

Mitrenga · August 2020

My Orc is ready to roll in Cyro with hisher(?)'s new wedding dress.

Syldras · August 2020

While I'm personally not interested in giving my female chars beards, I'm not sure why it would be unrealistic or breaking TES lore?! In a world where magic is common, it could be a curse. Or it could be a fake beard because the female char disguises herself as a man (which also happened in rl in different time periods for different reasons). There were so many possible explanations for a bearded female char - I don't see a problem there.

Same goes for hairstyles and jewelry. Which is the part I care more about. There are so many "female" hairstyles which would also look good on a male char, it's a pity that I can't use them. Although I understand that there might be technical reasons - on the other hand there are also clipping problems with costumes and armor, ZOS has not cared about that, and with jewelry or hair it couldn't be worse, I think?

Michae wrote: »

Beastygrowls wrote: »

This is a game. It has lore. It has a history. This isn't a place for IRL PC societal mores.

Um, that ship has already sailed, you know that for example Tamriel has gay marriage?

It's not even necessarily a pc issue. Many rl cultures were perfectly fine with same sex couples, even centuries and millenia ago. Think of ancient Greece, Persia or Japan. The condemation of homosexuality roots in certain religions and/or traditions. Regions without them had no problems with gay people. So, if we think about the faiths existing in Tamriel, there doesn't have to be a taboo about homosexuality. There doesn't even neccessarily have to be a distinction between couples of a different or of the same sex. There had been such cultures, historically.

amapola76 · August 2020

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

[

Finally whilst I agree that beards for female characters would seem unusual (although not unheard of in real life) I can't see any reason for the headband to be gender-locked, other than so they can say there's one item for male characters and one for female.

Maybe they could introduce the "peach fuzz" beard for female characters, that wouldn’t be too unusual :P.

I personally don't have any interest in putting a beard on any of my own female characters. However, I do think it's worth noting that even aside from our trans/NB friends, there are also cis women out there in real life who have beards for various biological reasons, like PCOS. Some also choose not to remove hair for religious reasons (e.g., some devout Sikhs). Not all of those women necessarily want to create their exact ESO-self, any more or less than anyone else might, but some probably do, or would like the option, and personally I think the more options we can give people, the better. Tamriel is a gloriously varied world, and that's why most of us love it.

Michae · August 2020

Syldras wrote: »

While I'm personally not interested in giving my female chars beards, I'm not sure why it would be unrealistic or breaking TES lore?! In a world where magic is common, it could be a curse. Or it could be a fake beard because the female char disguises herself as a man (which also happened in rl in different time periods for different reasons). There were so many possible explanations for a bearded female char - I don't see a problem there.

Same goes for hairstyles and jewelry. Which is the part I care more about. There are so many "female" hairstyles which would also look good on a male char, it's a pity that I can't use them. Although I understand that there might be technical reasons - on the other hand there are also clipping problems with costumes and armor, ZOS has not cared about that, and with jewelry or hair it couldn't be worse, I think?

Michae wrote: »

Beastygrowls wrote: »

This is a game. It has lore. It has a history. This isn't a place for IRL PC societal mores.

Um, that ship has already sailed, you know that for example Tamriel has gay marriage?

It's not even necessarily a pc issue. Many rl cultures were perfectly fine with same sex couples, even centuries and millenia ago. Think of ancient Greece, Persia or Japan. The condemation of homosexuality roots in certain religions and/or traditions. Regions without them had no problems with gay people. So, if we think about the faiths existing in Tamriel, there doesn't have to be a taboo about homosexuality. There doesn't even neccessarily have to be a distinction between couples of a different or of the same sex. There had been such cultures, historically.

Well, I'm not really in the devs minds but I think it's pretty clear why they added a few quests with gay married couples into the game, and it most probably is an attempt to be PC from them. Still, I don't really see anything wrong with that per se, although those dialogues did seem to me kinda on the nose. Well of course that in the world full of racial wars, slavery and various power struggles every culture agrees about gay marriage.

It was like the ending of one of the episodes of Senile Scribbles, where the Dragonborn was talking with Stormcloak and Imperial representatives about their stances on political issues.

Check it out, it starts at 3:12:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv3ScKLD1Vc&t=9s

But maybe it just feels that way because it's the first time in TES games you meet marriages like this. I know it was possible to marry the same sex person in Skyrim, but I don't really remember npc's like that. There's a first time for everything.

If there were characters like that in previous TES installments then they must've slipped my mind, sorry.

Anyway, sorry about that tangent, back to the topic at hand.
I agree that the issue discussed here, that of gender locked items is not really a PC issue, which I mentioned in my posts many times. Having more customization options in a game like ESO i just always wanted, especially since most of those items don't really fall into feminine or masculine types.

Syldras · August 2020

Michae wrote: »

Well of course that in the world full of racial wars, slavery and various power struggles every culture agrees about gay marriage.

It might be hard to imagine since the 3 monotheistic "world religions" had such an influence in rl, but many cultures untouched by them really did not care if anyone had a same-sex relationship. It was one way to live and it was not seen as a problem. Often it changed as soon as the first missionaries (or even just travellers) arrived and established their views. Same goes to nudity by the way, formerly no problems, Christians arrived, taught the people that it's shameful and god will punish them if they behave to sinfully - from that on, women had to cover their upper body. You can see that quite well on historical drawings or even early photographs from Asia. No matter if in India, China, Thailand,... Traditionally, in those hot climates, people weren't wearing much, especially those who worked outside in the heat all day. Women often walked around bare-chested, and no one found it wrong. It was just normal, before other people came and shamed them for it. Now imagine a world without that religious influence. No one would care, because it was considered normal. Same goes for same-sex relationships. It was no issue before someone made it into one. It's perfectly possible that never happened in Tamriel.

Michae wrote: »

But maybe it just feels that way because it's the first time in TES games you meet marriages like this. I know it was possible to marry the same sex person in Skyrim, but I don't really remember npc's like that. There's a first time for everything. If there were characters like that in previous TES installments then they must've slipped my mind, sorry.

There was a dead male Nord couple on Solstheim in Skyrim. In Oblivion, you had that son of the fighters' guild master who was in love with a comrade. And there were probably even more, but those are the ones I still remember. Oh, and in Morrowind you had Vivec. But that's a bit... complicated

And Crassius Curio. How could I forget him.

Ectheliontnacil · August 2020

TwinLamps wrote: »

If my orc can wear a dress I dont see why queen areynn wouldnt be able to grow a beard

Yes but can your orc grow a dress?

Michae · August 2020

Syldras wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

Well of course that in the world full of racial wars, slavery and various power struggles every culture agrees about gay marriage.

It might be hard to imagine since the 3 monotheistic "world religions" had such an influence in rl, but many cultures untouched by them really did not care if anyone had a same-sex relationship. It was one way to live and it was not seen as a problem. Often it changed as soon as the first missionaries (or even just travellers) arrived and established their views. Same goes to nudity by the way, formerly no problems, Christians arrived, taught the people that it's shameful and god will punish them if they behave to sinfully - from that on, women had to cover their upper body. You can see that quite well on historical drawings or even early photographs from Asia. No matter if in India, China, Thailand,... Traditionally, in those hot climates, people weren't wearing much, especially those who worked outside in the heat all day. Women often walked around bare-chested, and no one found it wrong. It was just normal, before other people came and shamed them for it. Now imagine a world without that religious influence. No one would care, because it was considered normal. Same goes for same-sex relationships. It was no issue before someone made it into one. It's perfectly possible that never happened in Tamriel.

Yeah, I agree. I know how it is in real world, I'm not denying that and I'm not trying to put that standard to Tamriel. Although the European/Christian influences in for example Breton and Imperial cultures are pretty clear, so it wouldn't be that far fetched to project those values onto Tamriel's cultural landscape if you think about it. If I were to implement gay marriage into Tamriel I'd probably go with implementing it only in certain cultures, elves for example, and have some other ones disagree with that. Something similar is done with Orc marriage tradition, where Orcs are polygamists and there are certain Orc women in game that dispute that. It could be an interesting discussion here too. That's just how it felt to me, you know. I wasn't really that much put off because of meeting that few married gay couples or anything, I just went "oh" and moved on. The same I would do if I met a lady cursed into having a beard.

Syldras wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

But maybe it just feels that way because it's the first time in TES games you meet marriages like this. I know it was possible to marry the same sex person in Skyrim, but I don't really remember npc's like that. There's a first time for everything. If there were characters like that in previous TES installments then they must've slipped my mind, sorry.

There was a dead male Nord couple on Solstheim in Skyrim. In Oblivion, you had that son of the fighters' guild master who was in love with a comrade. And there were probably even more, but those are the ones I still remember. Oh, and in Morrowind you had Vivec. But that's a bit... complicated And Crassius Curio. How could I forget him.

Wasn't Crassius Curio obsessed with a certain maid in a book so popular that it even managed to travel back in time into the Second Era? You're telling me he was gay on top of it too? I completely don't remember that. And Vivec also? I thought he was Almalexia's lover. I must replay Morrowind, it's been too long.

Syldras · August 2020

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

TwinLamps wrote: »

If my orc can wear a dress I dont see why queen areynn wouldnt be able to grow a beard

Yes but can your orc grow a dress?

Meet an ill-tempered Telvanni and everything may happen :P

Michae wrote: »

Still, I don't really see anything wrong with that per se, although those dialogues did seem to me kinda on the nose.

But why? Most of the time NPCs just refer to their husband or wife and you only get that it's a gay couple because of the gender of the NPCs saying it. It's not like they're declaring their gayness to you every second. "Hi there, I'm gay! And my gay husband happens to be kidnapped. May you help a poor gay couple?" - Now that would be annoying, even for me! But in TES, it seems like a absolute non-issue to me. People just love whom they love. Period.

Michae wrote: »

Wasn't Crassius Curio obsessed with a certain maid in a book so popular that it even managed to travel back in time into the Second Era? You're telling me he was gay on top of it too? I completely don't remember that. And Vivec also? I thought he was Almalexia's lover. I must replay Morrowind, it's been too long.

Both are bisexual. Crassius Curio flirts heavily with your char, no matter what gender you chose. There is also another NPC who mentions that you remind him of Crassius' last lover. Of course it's just that they did not change the dialogue according to the char's gender - but they could have, easily. As for Vivec, it's only mentioned in the 36 lessons. Of course it could just be Vivec's imagination, but if he was 100% straight, would he portrait himself like this?

Michae · August 2020

Syldras wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

TwinLamps wrote: »

If my orc can wear a dress I dont see why queen areynn wouldnt be able to grow a beard

Yes but can your orc grow a dress?

Meet an ill-tempered Telvanni and everything may happen :P

Thank you for putting that image in my head. XD

Syldras wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

Still, I don't really see anything wrong with that per se, although those dialogues did seem to me kinda on the nose.

But why? Most of the time NPCs just refer to their husband or wife and you only get that it's a gay couple because of the gender of the NPCs saying it. It's not like they're declaring their gayness to you every second. "Hi there, I'm gay! And my gay husband happens to be kidnapped. May you help a poor gay couple?" - Now that would be annoying, even for me! But in TES, it seems like a absolute non-issue to me. People just love whom they love. Period.

Nevermind. Maybe it's just my unconcious bias or something. I agree, people love who they love and it's nobody else's business.

Syldras wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

Wasn't Crassius Curio obsessed with a certain maid in a book so popular that it even managed to travel back in time into the Second Era? You're telling me he was gay on top of it too? I completely don't remember that. And Vivec also? I thought he was Almalexia's lover. I must replay Morrowind, it's been too long.

Both are bisexual. Crassius Curio flirts heavily with your char, no matter what gender you chose. There is also another NPC who mentions that you remind him of Crassius' last lover. Of course it's just that they did not change the dialogue according to the char's gender - but they could have, easily. As for Vivec, it's only mentioned in the 36 lessons. Of course it could just be Vivec's imagination, but if he was 100% straight, would he portrait himself like this?

Ok, no problems with that, I just didn't know.

We can continue this in PM's if you like, or make a seperate thread. I'd just hate to derail this thread from the topic of unisex adornments even further.

Syldras · August 2020

Michae wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

TwinLamps wrote: »

If my orc can wear a dress I dont see why queen areynn wouldnt be able to grow a beard

Yes but can your orc grow a dress?

Meet an ill-tempered Telvanni and everything may happen :P

Thank you for putting that image in my head. XD

And if they try to cut it off, it will grow back!
I somehow suspect that's what happened to all those male orcs in wedding dresses...

Michae wrote: »

We can continue this in PM's if you like, or make a seperate thread. I'd just hate to derail this thread from the topic of unisex adornments even further.

You're right, it's a bit off-topic

Seperate thread? I don't know if there's much more to discuss, actually. If you feel the need to open one, I'm fine with it, though.

craybest · August 2020

in a game where males can wear actual wedding dresses, it's weird to have certain facial jewelry and piercings to be gender locked.
no reason to have that anymore.