Gender-locked Items

January1171

ZoS, please. I love you. I love this game. But please stop locking costumes/adornments/etc by gender! It feels so backwards.

Literally today you were showing off Alchemy, the character and story that won you the very first video game GLAAD award ever, but on the very same you revealed rewards that are locked behind a pointless gender binary.

Obviously I am in no position to demand anything. All I ask is that you listen to this and keep this request in mind.

TradoTheOne

Im pretty sure you can equip any costume no matter gender. Adornments and facial hair are split.
But beards for female chars? I feel thats way to over the top (Check Sea of Thieves)
No doubt the weddingdress wearing orcs will take good care of that freedom 🙃

vestahls

If the face structure of characters differs according to gender, it would clip pretty badly. They'd probably have to re-do the whole re-sizing thing of cosmetics, or the "bone structure" of the characters, for things to not be wonky.

tomofhyrule

From another thread:

ZOS_Adrikoth wrote: »

Hey folks,

We wanted to reach out and let you know that we appreciate the feedback provided in this thread and it has been passed along to the proper team.

As @heaven13 brought up, only the hairstyles we originally launched with are like this, and all later hairstyles are gender-neutral. Future hairstyles will continue to be gender-neutral as well.

They are at least planning that future hairstyles will be available for both genders. The only hairstyles that are gendered are the orginal release ones.

Now if they'll ever release the new hairstyles (or the ones that have been seen on NPCs and still haven't made it live like Short Mussed Wave or Velsa's hair)... but that would mean they'd need to actually make them available to buy.

I can understand why beards are male-only. I'm not that sure why the headband from this month's rewards is female-only, since that could be available for both. Particularly since we have had crate seasons with earrings/tiaras/flowers available to the men. I guess it's just since there's something male-only, they decided that something female-only was needed so nobody would come to the forums to complain that ZOS was sexist and focusing on men by making a daily reward that only worked for male characters.

About costumes, though, that's also tough. Costumes designed for a male figure are usually tailored to fit well on female characters as well, but the costumes designed for females don't easily translate to men. Just look at the Noble outfits - the suit on a female character still looks lore appropriate, but a male character can't wear the dress without looking like he's crossdressing - and there are very few examples of that in lore. It is more open than things like Oblivion or Skyrim which had one outfit that came as a "male version" as pants and a "female version" as a dress; we now have the ability to get men to wear a dress and women in pants if we want to.

But there are some times that the 'opposite gender version' isn't made available, and that's not fun: Consider things like Sai's jack or the Argonian kilts - both were designed as a male costume, so the female version adds a modesty wrap and still looks appropriate and lore-friendly. However, we've got things like the Doeskin Chamois outfit or the upcoming Timbercrow costume that were designed for a female body, so the male version is wearing exactly the same thing, including the sports bra. Realistically they would look excellent as barbaric outfits on men without a top, but now just looks like a guy wearing women's underwear...and there are no real 'shirtless barbarian' outfits for guys in a barbaric style.

Now it's also understandable that there are more 'female-designed' costumes than 'male-designed,' since there's a lot more that can be done with dresses than there is with a pair of pants (especially if you're going with the lore of each race, and Altmer are really particular about that kind of thing).

Danikat

vestahls wrote: »

If the face structure of characters differs according to gender, it would clip pretty badly. They'd probably have to re-do the whole re-sizing thing of cosmetics, or the "bone structure" of the characters, for things to not be wonky.

They've already had to make 3 different versions of the beard in the login rewards: one for humans and elves, one for khajiit and one for argonians. The same is true of a lot of crownstore adornments, hairstyles etc. which work on all races, it will look fundamentally different on khajiit and argonians even if it's sold and described as one item. So they could do the same to accomodate both male and female characters where necessary.

Although I'm also not convinced that the difference in facial structure between male and female characters of the same race is more extreme than the difference between a fat male orc or nord and an extremely skinny male altmer, so if the latter two can share all cosmetics I don't see why males and females can't.

Finally whilst I agree that beards for female characters would seem unusual (although not unheard of in real life) I can't see any reason for the headband to be gender-locked, other than so they can say there's one item for male characters and one for female.

vestahls

Danikat wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

If the face structure of characters differs according to gender, it would clip pretty badly. They'd probably have to re-do the whole re-sizing thing of cosmetics, or the "bone structure" of the characters, for things to not be wonky.

They've already had to make 3 different versions of the beard in the login rewards: one for humans and elves, one for khajiit and one for argonians. The same is true of a lot of crownstore adornments, hairstyles etc. which work on all races, it will look fundamentally different on khajiit and argonians even if it's sold and described as one item. So they could do the same to accomodate both male and female characters where necessary.

There's still plenty of hairstyles from khajiits and argonians that can only be used for those characters though, when there's not much point to it. There's some khajiit hairstyles I'd like to use, but can't. By that argument, they'd have to resize those things as well.

It's probably too much work for stuff that isn't a priority. Like there's armor styles that still have floating bits.

Ratzkifal

Trying to equip items which were not meant to be equipable on certain races/genders often leads to distorted character models, glitching and clipping issues. Now for most items this is not the case, but make-up that was only designed for one gender probably maps wrong on the other gender's face. In the case of makeup this is probably relatively easy to fix, it's just a matter of when the Devs actually have time to update the older stuff that doesn't behave like the newer crownstore stuff. Race-specific items and presumably beards, will probably never be free to equip on any character regardless of race and gender.

gatekeeper13

Keep gender-locked items as they are now.

Wyrd88

There is nothing wrong with gender-locked items.

January1171 wrote: »

a pointless gender binary

And this goes too far. -_-

Ajaxandriel

Oh no here we go...

Wedding-dresses-wearing orks to the next level of awful taste 😬

Please stahp.

Ectheliontnacil

Danikat wrote: »

[

Finally whilst I agree that beards for female characters would seem unusual (although not unheard of in real life) I can't see any reason for the headband to be gender-locked, other than so they can say there's one item for male characters and one for female.

Maybe they could introduce the "peach fuzz" beard for female characters, that wouldn’t be too unusual :P.

Ectheliontnacil

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

Keep gender-locked items as they are now.

Yup. But give male characters eyelashes (not the weird colourful ones we have access to now).

ArchMikem

There are some outfit styles that give Male characters bare chests. I feel a bit discriminated that my Females are forced to have their chests restrained.

Sylvermynx

ArchMikem wrote: »

There are some outfit styles that give Male characters bare chests. I feel a bit discriminated that my Females are forced to have their chests restrained.

Yeah. Especially in a game rated M.

Elsonso

Sylvermynx wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

There are some outfit styles that give Male characters bare chests. I feel a bit discriminated that my Females are forced to have their chests restrained.

Yeah. Especially in a game rated M.

M for Male?

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

Keep gender-locked items as they are now.

I am sure that they will. I doubt that they could just flip a switch and make everything available to both. They probably have to go in and create a new model for that to happen.

Sylvermynx

Elsonso wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

There are some outfit styles that give Male characters bare chests. I feel a bit discriminated that my Females are forced to have their chests restrained.

Yeah. Especially in a game rated M.

M for Male? .

*rolls eyes* Nah. I like my guys with bare chests sometimes. And I would also like my girls ditto sometimes.

Arunei

I'm still of the belief that nothing should be gender locked in this game, except MAYBE beards, but in a universe were the sun and stars actually are holes into an aetherial plane and demons are literally real, I wouldn't find women with beards as unlikely as they are irl. And nothing is stopping a guy from doing their hair up in ponytails or putting on certain earrings or applying some makeup. You would think if they can make male models able to wear dresses and female models able to wear pants, that they could make the minor adjustments to male and female versions of adornments so it 'fits' both models properly.

And yes, before anyone says it, I know there are numerous outfits and styles that blow up the chest of the character wearing it. The High Rock one is bad about exploding a female's bust and the Whisperweft Gala one does it on male and female characters. I doubt there's such a drastic difference between male and female head/face models as there is between male and female torsos, though.

ArchMikem

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

There are some outfit styles that give Male characters bare chests. I feel a bit discriminated that my Females are forced to have their chests restrained.

Yeah. Especially in a game rated M.

M for Male? .

*rolls eyes* Nah. I like my guys with bare chests sometimes. And I would also like my girls ditto sometimes.

I have never agreed more with someone.

16BitForestCat

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

Keep gender-locked items as they are now.

Username checks out.


Just popping in to say to all those "it's okay for only guys to have beards in this game!" that ciswomen with facial hair isn't actually nearly as rare as y'all seem to think. It's just that many closed-minded weirdos think facial hair is considered a reason to shame those women, so they usually take steps to ensure you never know they can grow mustaches or beards. It's not just transwomen who can have facial hair (and more and more cis and trans people are starting to embrace their facial hair even if it doesn't match "traditional" presentation for their gender).

And this is a fantasy game to boot, so I say let the femme character models have long flowing beards if they want! My take on fashion stuff is, if you can't make it display more or less properly with all the available char models, you probably shouldn't be putting it in at all until that's resolved. Heck, for me, that even includes things like hair for Argonians--let my lizards wear wigs! I did that Murkmire quest where you enter a vision of the past that turns your character into the Argonian Mateem, but it didn't remove my Crown store hairstyle. My Bosmer-turned-Saxhleel looked awesome with long flowing locks.

Aendruu

When I began playing, I made the mistake of purchasing the adornments cosmetic pack without realising I could check its contents first for the items' compatibility with my race and gender. Needless to say I was disappointed to find how much of that pack was therefore unusable, particularly the jewellery; it seems ridiculous that various circlets and earrings are gender-specific.

Also, what in Oblivion inspired ZOS to have the female-only Seastone Browplate as a daily reward this month?

vibeborn

From what I have seen on pictures and in game, there are tons of ways for characters to look like they're not in the gender "binary". Personally I have a female khajiit, but you wouldn't know that it's a female unless I told you

MercilessnVexed

This is a game. It has lore. It has a history. This isn't a place for IRL PC societal mores.

morrowjen

Why do people keep mentioning pants as an example? Women have been wearing pants for ages lol.

TwinLamps

If my orc can wear a dress I dont see why queen areynn wouldnt be able to grow a beard

kargen27

Danikat

Aendruu wrote: »

When I began playing, I made the mistake of purchasing the adornments cosmetic pack without realising I could check its contents first for the items' compatibility with my race and gender. Needless to say I was disappointed to find how much of that pack was therefore unusable, particularly the jewellery; it seems ridiculous that various circlets and earrings are gender-specific.

Also, what in Oblivion inspired ZOS to have the female-only Seastone Browplate as a daily reward this month?

I suspect they decided to include the beard, realised they'd get tons of complaints if they made a reward that only male characters can use (many ESO players only have 1 character) so they picked an unreleased jewellery design and arbitrarily made it female-only to balance it out.

Beastygrowls wrote: »

This is a game. It has lore. It has a history. This isn't a place for IRL PC societal mores.

I genuinely can't tell if this is meant to be an argument for or against gender-locked cosmetics. Considering TES lore I could see it going either way.

Michae

Beastygrowls wrote: »

This is a game. It has lore. It has a history. This isn't a place for IRL PC societal mores.

Um, that ship has already sailed, you know that for example Tamriel has gay marriage? So I really don't see any harm in unlocking all adornments and hairstyles for both sexes. The newer ones are already available for both anyway, so you can run around with your Orc in wedding dress sporting some nice twin braids or adorable assassin hairstyle. Yet some are locked just because. There are plenty of female only jewelery that easily can be considered unisex, especially in fantasy world setting, same with hairstyles. The more options the better, and people can be really creative with customisation, why hinder them? This isn't some PC issue, it's just a plea for some more customisation options, that are already in the game, but some are locked out without any specific reason. As for bearded ladies it's just a fun thought for me. In magical fantasy world, where you can for example get transformed into a skeleton, daedra or a mouse, or you can have some twice cursed skin, so seeing a lady with a beard, be it fake one or maybe applied through some magical curse wouldn't be that far fetched.

As for me I just would like some shorter hairstyle for my female assassin, something akin to Zeira's hair or Short Imperial style, which is locked behind the gender gate. It's not lore unfriendly to see a woman with short hairstyle, Zeira's an example, so why is it locked? Not everything related to gender has to be a PC issue.

Raudgrani

As for BEARDS, only "*** carriers" can have them in real life. In the few cases where we have hormonal imbalances and women have facial hair, I think a very thin "old shaolin monk" style beard is the best they can do. So I mean, "gender preference" and all - but those who were not physically born to have a beard, won't have any - unless they undergo heavy hormonal therapy for years, and in the end they will have a soft and pretty thin beard anyway.

Regarding clothing, I have never had a problem to put a "CIS female" costume on a male character; not that I have ever worn any on them - just briefly while looking through what costumes I have.
There might be a few things, like these flowers you can have in your hair, that you can't equip on a male character. But on the other hand, I can't use all khajiit/argonian adornments on human/mer races either.

This feels suspiciously more like a real world political statement, masquerading as an "in-game-problem". I have seen many *** type characters around all over the game, so I can hardly see this is a huge problem. By all means, express your concerns - but can we please have the staff work on actual functionality/performance problems instead? And the actual GLITCHES we have with some costumes and such?

Michae

Raudgrani wrote: »

As for BEARDS, only "*** carriers" can have them in real life. In the few cases where we have hormonal imbalances and women have facial hair, I think a very thin "old shaolin monk" style beard is the best they can do. So I mean, "gender preference" and all - but those who were not physically born to have a beard, won't have any - unless they undergo heavy hormonal therapy for years, and in the end they will have a soft and pretty thin beard anyway.

In magical world with dragons, unicorns and people transforming into many things you draw the line at beards on woomen because that's unrealistic? XD As I said, fake beards exist, and in Tamriel magic and magical curses do exist too. So attaching a beard to a lady shouldn't really be a challenge to a skilled mage or craftsman.

Raudgrani wrote: »

Regarding clothing, I have never had a problem to put a "CIS female" costume on a male character; not that I have ever worn any on them - just briefly while looking through what costumes I have.
There might be a few things, like these flowers you can have in your hair, that you can't equip on a male character. But on the other hand, I can't use all khajiit/argonian adornments on human/mer races either.

This feels suspiciously more like a real world political statement, masquerading as an "in-game-problem". I have seen many *** type characters around all over the game, so I can hardly see this is a huge problem. By all means, express your concerns - but can we please have the staff work on actual functionality/performance problems instead? And the actual GLITCHES we have with some costumes and such?

Seems like whataboutism to me. Sure, there are bugs and such in this game but no one's saying here that gender locked items are the biggest problem about ESO. There are always several threads going on about lag, servers and general bugs, one thread about something else doesn't really hurt anyone, and also it's not like the same team works on adornments and servers.

As for "this feeling suspiciously like real world political statement", what else can people say for you to believe them it's not? I already said, it's not some PC issue for me, I really have no horse in this race, except for wanting more customisation options.

SlimeBro1

This isn't really an issue I don't think.

DTStormfox

I agree with SlimeBro1
Why is this even a topic of discussion? Why care that some hairstyles, facial hair, or costumes are bound to genders?