For God’s Sake - STOP Changing This Game For Ball Groups in Cyrodiil

Woozywyvern · July 2020

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

I understand that they are at their wits end but ZOS realize this if you go trhough with this and basically change every class from top to bottom just to make them feasible for a 3 second cooldown in cyrodiil

so basically disrupt any class in pve and pvp completely just to serve a small tiny minority in cyrodiil - this will be the final straw that destroys this game

I don't normally wade in on these discussions because my experience is limited and I'm not a great player. But this is spot on and totally correct. Doing this will damage every class and pve playstyle just for a 3 second cooldown to combat a tactic in Cyrodil

CompM4s · July 2020

Nothing will beat ball groups, because they are organized and adapt to each patch.

Four_Fingers · July 2020

It is because all the Ball group hate is spread by mouth misinformation and hate.
Confusing faction stacking groups to what they call "ball" groups.
People that sit down and figure out how to use what the game gives them, work together and use strategy will always prevail.
Reduce group size, limit healing to group only will actually be good for smart groups as that is the right size for a group and solo players will only be able to heal themselves.

BXR_Lonestar · July 2020

I'm going to be honest here - people complaining about ball groups in Cyrodil is kinda like a vegetarian complaining that there is no vegetarian friendly food at a steakhouse. Cyrodil is like the large-scale Big-team-battle kind of PVP mode so of course people are going to run in large groups. Nothing wrong with that in the slightest other than the server is having a difficult time managing all the calculations that need to occur in large-scale battles. Chalk that up to ZOS not anticipating the need for more robust software.

But they shouldn't be trying to address it from the standpoint of discouraging people to play in a group - that is what big team battle is for. They just need to find a fix for the server lag issues that it causes when one big group meets another and as soon as they can do that, Cyrodil's pvp is going to be fun/awesome again.

If you want small scale battles, that is what battlegrounds is for.

Dusk_Coven · July 2020

Hurbster wrote: »

100% a problem of Zenimax's own creation. They created, designed, tested, and curated these skills. The same goes for the CP system.

And they work fine for the most part -- until people start pushing builds and team combos out to where they didn't intend the system to support.
And then instead of ZOS recognizing that and having an honest conversation with players that they are moving to where the system can't support, was never intended to support... what did they do instead?

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

This is not what we intended, but part of the fun of Elder Scrolls games is designing a build that has unexpected and powerful results, and we allowed it. However, as this behavior grew more prevalent, we reached a point where casting so many continuous AOE abilities in such a small area started to overwhelm the server process for that area, leading to situations where the "lag meter" spikes and the server becomes unresponsive for a period of time.

Now it's too late for that conversation because people are used to builds that were never intended -- that are basically exploiting the system's freedom to build. And they are demanding their broken playstyle be supported. They will say anything, make any type of excuse, to justify keeping the power they have acquired.

If ZOS agrees to support that, it will wreck the game for everyone. This AOE change is a nuclear bomb that will do that because it fundamentally changes the combat system. Broken builds will have to find a new exploit. Everyone else having fun with the system in ways that it was intended, that aren't breaking it -- they will be affected too. PvE play which doesn't have anything at all to do with Cyrodiil will also be affected.

Back in the days of a pen and paper RPGs, when you didn't have a program to limit what your creativity could do, the potential problems with broken builds were way worse. But the GameMaster would have vetoed all the broken builds because they wanted everyone to have fun. Not just the minimaxer who was there for math, not to cooperate to make the game a success for the group.

https://gq-game-mods.blogspot.com/2020/07/what-everyone-already-knew-exploiting-destroys-the-game-for-everyone.html

No mere change to the mechanics will ever solve this problem without taking away what's fun about ESO.
It's a problem with how people think.

*

But there is a viable solution -- the same solution that would have been used in pen and paper RPGs -- if everyone wanted to play a broken game, they could have that game. It worked because each game group was SEPARATED. Your campaign with its own flavour and playstyle didn't affect our campaign.

So the real answer is to move all the extreme build players into their own Cyrodiil where they can't affect anyone. No rules changes need to be made.
ESO needed to sort PvP into leagues from the very start and those leagues must not play each other.

Dusk_Coven · July 2020

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I'm going to be honest here - people complaining about ball groups in Cyrodil is kinda like a vegetarian complaining that there is no vegetarian friendly food at a steakhouse. Cyrodil is like the large-scale Big-team-battle kind of PVP mode so of course people are going to run in large groups. Nothing wrong with that in the slightest other than the server is having a difficult time managing all the calculations that need to occur in large-scale battles. Chalk that up to ZOS not anticipating the need for more robust software.

But they shouldn't be trying to address it from the standpoint of discouraging people to play in a group - that is what big team battle is for. They just need to find a fix for the server lag issues that it causes when one big group meets another and as soon as they can do that, Cyrodil's pvp is going to be fun/awesome again.

If you want small scale battles, that is what battlegrounds is for.

Players wanting to destroy the idea of "ball groups" (who are ultimately players who just want to play in a group and maybe even coordinate to do so efficiently) are trying to use politics to ruin a playstyle that they don't like. This AOE test is just the opening they needed to pull this stunt. So that their own playstyle is thereby enhanced.

It's one thing to condemn camping at a door to kill people while they are in a loadscreen.
It's pathetic to use politics to attack someone else's actual strategy / build / legitimate play.

The problem is not ball groups per se. Or even AOE spamming. Rich Lambert already said what the real problem is -- a playstyle that is outside what ESO's combat system intended or can properly support. Addressing that cause will take more than addressing one symptom of it.

Mortiis13 · July 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

If we turn this game to a turn base game it could go on your cellphone and we could play ESO everwhere!

"You got phones right?"

You think you want it, but you don't!

DigitalHype · July 2020

The way I understand it. These tests and possible subsequent changes are not a targetted nerf against so-called "ball groups". It's not only ball groups which are the issue. It's an aggregate problem, where they are one contributing factor.

This is entirely about a server infrastructure and software architecture that can't handle the current scale and how the game has evolved over time. Nothing is being done for gameplay balance. I see this as a last-resort attempt to prop up Cyrodiil performance without having to making massive, costly changes to harware and software design.

Ackwalan · July 2020

A ball group and a coordinated group are not the same thing. A coordinated group will work together using abilities and gear to maximize the group. A ball group will spam the same 1 or 2 AOE's knowing this will cause lag for everyone in the area. Ball groups will sit at one keep causing as much lag as possible, and when an organized groups shows up, they will port to IC.

If you've ever intentionally tried to lag out the game, do the game a favor and follow through your threat to leave.

itscompton · July 2020

Skoomah wrote: »

Took away animation canceling, added numerous proc sets and free damage, now you’re going to turn this game into a turn based global cooldown everything, super slow game.

Because why?

You refuse to add group caps.
You refuse to add target caps for healing.
You refuse to take away the god mode CP system in PVP.

So these ball groups just run around with infinite sustain, infinite healing, infinite damage, blowing up the server, and then you rework entire fundamental combat systems to accommodate them.

LET ME ALSO ADD... IT TAKES NO SKILL TO RUN IN A BALL GROUP. IT’S THE MOST MIND NUMBING GAMEPLAY EVER.

I ran in a ball group once....just once.

The fun lasts about 10 minutes, then it's just monotony. If that's the level of challenge people are looking for I would suggest they run overland story content.

itscompton · July 2020

brianzim87 wrote: »

Coming from Dark Age of Camelot where 8mans (ball groups in daoc) were strong and could coordinate and wipe entire zergs if played right. I disagree. I think competitive group play is awesome. I think casually zerging can be fun. I think small scale fights are awesome. I enjoy every aspect of open world, realm/faction based combat. If running a ball group is so easy, just do it yourself and fight the enemy ball group. Why do people complain about having a dynamic pvp system where you can fight undermanned and win if you're better? I don't know. In dark age when the first 8 mans showed up.. you have people start their own 8mans.. rivalries ensued. TO THIS DAY on daoc servers, there are still 8mans running around on phoenix server. New players and vets alike. I think its amazing how people can coordinate, and sustain and wreck loads of players. Making a name for yourself is what pvp is about.

LOL, ball groups don't win because they're "better" players, they win fights because they take advantage of poorly thought out mechanics which in turn makes the game less fun overall.

DukeDiewalker · July 2020

Good thread. You're absolutely right.
I wish I could still care, but Pvp seems to be on the death bed this year.
Can't be bothered with caring about ESO anymore, especially since the forums are just being heavily censored.

Crash427 · July 2020

Sorry but I dont buy Rich's explanation. how can there be more AOE spam now than before? A couple of years ago I was in a multi guild fight one night at Alessia. There were close to 200 people in that fight, including two ballgroups, and the game worked. Now the game falls down with 30 people in one keep. You want me to believe 30 people now are spamming more AOEs than 200 did?

And why blame the players, we're not the ones continously adding AOE proc sets to the game.

Jem_Kindheart · July 2020

Crash427 wrote: »

Sorry but I dont buy Rich's explanation. how can there be more AOE spam now than before? A couple of years ago I was in a multi guild fight one night at Alessia. There were close to 200 people in that fight, including two ballgroups, and the game worked. Now the game falls down with 30 people in one keep. You want me to believe 30 people now are spamming more AOEs than 200 did?

And why blame the players, we're not the ones continously adding AOE proc sets to the game.

I also don't buy Rich's (and some posters here) explanation 100%. I run with semi-organized groups with DC, say 10-24, not ball group at all. Since Greymoor's "performance enhancements" our skills are barely going off lol. Just basic attacks, an occasional aoe (the basic Caltrops, Volley, an aoe heal or two, etc etc etc). We're certainly not spamming or exploiting lol. Hard to even think about spamming or abusing the broken game system when you're skills aren't even going off at all anyway lol.

On a really good day, the skills and everything works fluidly and smoothly for our groups. You can even get on your horse! What joy! UNTIL we encounter a certain well-known EP ball group.. and then it goes to skeever poop. Our skills stop going off, and of course we die.

I'd like it made super clear and in no uncertain language: that certain EP ball group's skills continue to go off just fine during this time we're totally locked up and unable to use ours.

This signals a design problem. It certainly isn't a matter of gaming skill lol.

In PvE terms, this would be like going into Sunspire, and none of the enemies can use their attacks, heals, or move, while the raid team can use theirs just fine. Everyone would be running around with Godslayer and the Sunspire Senche mount lol.

itscompton · August 2020

Crash427 wrote: »

Sorry but I dont buy Rich's explanation. how can there be more AOE spam now than before? A couple of years ago I was in a multi guild fight one night at Alessia. There were close to 200 people in that fight, including two ballgroups, and the game worked. Now the game falls down with 30 people in one keep. You want me to believe 30 people now are spamming more AOEs than 200 did?

And why blame the players, we're not the ones continously adding AOE proc sets to the game.

From game experience and reading what Devs have talked about it seems the computational power of the servers are shared between PvP and PvE with certain activities being given priority for processing. Thus during MYM they are able to shift PvP processes to a higher priority and it runs smoother. But because most play PvE that's typically where they focus resources and because the overall game population has increased dramatically there just isn't enough CPU resources to run even all those instances smoothly let alone have CPU cycles left to power PvP.