Battlegrounds Deathmatch: Add Damage Taken

sabresandiego_ESO · July 2020

So we can see who was being “focused” or drawing fire away from teammates during the match.

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2020

I don't think we need to give out incentives for builds that do nothing but troll tank. I know, it's very hard to do that in no cp but the whole idea of a deathmatch is a fast paced battle. Other modes benefit tank builds more.

sabresandiego_ESO · July 2020

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

I don't think we need to give out incentives for builds that do nothing but troll tank. I know, it's very hard to do that in no cp but the whole idea of a deathmatch is a fast paced battle. Other modes benefit tank builds more.

Recognizing “damage taken” simply shows who’s being focused and tanking damage. You don’t have to be a tank to take damage: everyone does. Good pvp tanks are not trolls and are not useless because they are doing damage themselves or healing.

I don’t think troll tanking is incentivized just because of the scoreboard showing damage taken; and killing blows are still what win games.

kalunte · July 2020

actually healing is not considered, only crosshealing is, and healers arent even getting assists on kills while they carry their team most of the time..

that being said i totally agree with your point of view, frontlane are important and a good one can make a huge difference just like a good healer does.

Reverb · July 2020

My 3200 health regen DK, with no execute and only self-heals, says “yes please”

OlumoGarbag · July 2020

You love proc sets, easy mode pvp and now you want to be cheered upon for bringing tanks into battleground?
Your posts today are really on point dude.

ketsparrowhawk · July 2020

Damage taken isn't a valuable stat to track in a DEATH match. You contribute to the team by getting kills, or by healing those who are getting kills. If you just tank a bunch of damage, your enemies will just stop attacking you and focus your squishy teammates instead. You're actually making things harder on your team.. not easier.

sabresandiego_ESO · July 2020

PVE style tanks suck in Deathmatch PVP and are a detriment to the team because they do little to no damage Or healing and get ignored. Nobody is disputing that; But that’s not what this thread is about:

Everybody takes damage in PVP no matter what kind of build you are on. Having a damage taken stat would be nice so that you could see who was being focused or drawing fire away from their teammates

nemvar · July 2020

It shows DEATHS. A low death number means you have done a good job not dying, aka, being tanky.

sabresandiego_ESO · July 2020

nemvar wrote: »

It shows DEATHS. A low death number means you have done a good job not dying, aka, being tanky.

Low deaths could be a mag sorc sitting in the edges farming killing blows or a NB abusing cloak and invisibility.

Damage taken shows who actually ate a ton of damage in the match. Having this stat visible doesn’t hurt anybody

And a good player who is constantly in the fray may have a very high damage taken stat and low deaths

ketsparrowhawk · July 2020

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

PVE style tanks suck in Deathmatch PVP and are a detriment to the team because they do little to no damage Or healing and get ignored. Nobody is disputing that; But that’s not what this thread is about:

Everybody takes damage in PVP no matter what kind of build you are on. Having a damage taken stat would be nice so that you could see who was being focused or drawing fire away from their teammates

Just not sure I see the value. You win by getting the most kills. Not sure how seeing damage taken is gonna help with that. If anything I think it would just encourage bad gameplay.

OlumoGarbag · July 2020

Just use combat metrics if you want to see the damage taken. It also shows you every detail on who attacked you with what.

In the BG where tank play is legit (chaosball) there are already multiple damage taken indicators. Such as archievements and also chaosbearer.

Arcanasx · July 2020

They really should. Adding damage taken would better reflect on a players contribution to the team and this is obvious to any decent player that plays BGs at a higher level, particularly when it comes to "sharing the damaged received" . A player absorbing damage is often damage not being done to someone else on their team, relieving pressure and allowing them to stay alive easier and to go on the offensive more.

This often applies to ranged DDs who often use their melee focused teammates as a meat shield, and this makes it much easier for them to inflate their stats with higher kill and damage counts on the scoreboard. At the very least, those playing as a melee focused meat shield for their ranged and even their hit and run playstyle teammates should have their contribution to the team noted by showing the damage that they absorb for them.

Saying that damage taken isn't a valuable stat for a deathmatch and shouldn't be shown is almost like saying healing and its associated medals shouldn't be shown because its a "deathmatch" and you cant kill the enemy by healing them. Obviously healers can contribute a lot by keeping their team alive, making it more difficult for the enemy to get the kills they need to win the match. In fact, good healers tend to relieve a lot of pressure for their team, making it easier for them to play offensively and get the kills they need to actually win the match, and the same is true for those who can receive a lot of damage and still stay alive without necessarily even being on a tank build and are more DD focused.

This isn't about empowering "troll tank" builds, its more about accurately reflecting the contributions and the ability of those who do their underappreciated part in taking damage for their team.

WiredandTired · July 2020

Unsure if this is a good idea or not. I'm leaning towards no. In the context of just showing damage taken to be an indicator of a job well done, how does it differentiate from a guy who is inexperienced/squishy/feeder vs a legit tank? In fact it'd be easy to inflate the damage taken number if you're say a squishy magicka player getting deleted repeatedly and fast.

It would only be beneficial to some overall larger charges to battlegrounds, say queuing by role. It'd be a worthwhile stat to evaluate the tank player if he is indeed built tanky or fulfilling that role. On the other hand, any decent opposing team if you're adapting to win either deathmatch or objectives will try to ignore the tank anyways (with the exception of chaosball, where you're forced to dogpile on a potentially tanky player anyways). Anybody who repeatedly beats on the tank uncoordinated or as primary target is not playing tactically. In that case the tank needs to run interference and peel opposing dps off their healers or squishy, or spearheading the charge to stun and set focus targets. Those would be other stats that would be hard to track. Teamwork is an intangible thing and largely left up to the players. Numbers can help but they hardly help if they can't be interpreted correctly.

Despite the lopsided nature and frustrating nature of BGs, I have a lot of fun with them. Any improvements to address teamwork in BGs would be great. To breathe new life into BGs, I'd give it tiered campaign rewards like Cyrodil (solo and group queue options), a separate ranked group queue, and most importantly a thoroughly good MMR system to make sure players are not outmatched consistently.

I'd also argue that a competitive ranked queue if done correctly could be one of the prongs of addressing Cyrodil lag problems. A properly done competitve ranked BG mode would give Cyrodil players another option to pvp and thus alleviate some traffic from Cyrodil.

Qbiken · July 2020

As long as it doesn't reward points/score then sure, add a damage taken stat for all that I care.

Dr_Ganknstein · July 2020

And add a potato achievement

Arcanasx · July 2020

WiredandTired wrote: »

Unsure if this is a good idea or not. I'm leaning towards no. In the context of just showing damage taken to be an indicator of a job well done, how does it differentiate from a guy who is inexperienced/squishy/feeder vs a legit tank? In fact it'd be easy to inflate the damage taken number if you're say a squishy magicka player getting deleted repeatedly and fast.

It would only be beneficial to some overall larger charges to battlegrounds, say queuing by role. It'd be a worthwhile stat to evaluate the tank player if he is indeed built tanky or fulfilling that role. On the other hand, any decent opposing team if you're adapting to win either deathmatch or objectives will try to ignore the tank anyways (with the exception of chaosball, where you're forced to dogpile on a potentially tanky player anyways). Anybody who repeatedly beats on the tank uncoordinated or as primary target is not playing tactically. In that case the tank needs to run interference and peel opposing dps off their healers or squishy, or spearheading the charge to stun and set focus targets. Those would be other stats that would be hard to track. Teamwork is an intangible thing and largely left up to the players. Numbers can help but they hardly help if they can't be interpreted correctly.

Despite the lopsided nature and frustrating nature of BGs, I have a lot of fun with them. Any improvements to address teamwork in BGs would be great. To breathe new life into BGs, I'd give it tiered campaign rewards like Cyrodil (solo and group queue options), a separate ranked group queue, and most importantly a thoroughly good MMR system to make sure players are not outmatched consistently.

I'd also argue that a competitive ranked queue if done correctly could be one of the prongs of addressing Cyrodil lag problems. A properly done competitve ranked BG mode would give Cyrodil players another option to pvp and thus alleviate some traffic from Cyrodil.

The first paragraph is just wrong. If someone is a/an "inexperienced/squishy/feeder" that gets themselves killed quickly, they aren't going to rack up a large damage taken stat because they will be spending a large portion of their time dead and waiting to spawn and running back to the fight, instead of surviving longer and continuously taking damage. On the other hand, if someone is a legit "tank" then they often aren't much of a threat, and smarter players will tend to ignore them and only kill them if the rest of that tank's team is dead.

People need to see the damage taken stat as damage being "shared" for the team, instead of something that troll tanks see as a measurement of their ability to be a unthreatening damage sponge that deals little damage.

WiredandTired · July 2020

Arcanasx wrote: »

WiredandTired wrote: »

Unsure if this is a good idea or not. I'm leaning towards no. In the context of just showing damage taken to be an indicator of a job well done, how does it differentiate from a guy who is inexperienced/squishy/feeder vs a legit tank? In fact it'd be easy to inflate the damage taken number if you're say a squishy magicka player getting deleted repeatedly and fast.

It would only be beneficial to some overall larger charges to battlegrounds, say queuing by role. It'd be a worthwhile stat to evaluate the tank player if he is indeed built tanky or fulfilling that role. On the other hand, any decent opposing team if you're adapting to win either deathmatch or objectives will try to ignore the tank anyways (with the exception of chaosball, where you're forced to dogpile on a potentially tanky player anyways). Anybody who repeatedly beats on the tank uncoordinated or as primary target is not playing tactically. In that case the tank needs to run interference and peel opposing dps off their healers or squishy, or spearheading the charge to stun and set focus targets. Those would be other stats that would be hard to track. Teamwork is an intangible thing and largely left up to the players. Numbers can help but they hardly help if they can't be interpreted correctly.

Despite the lopsided nature and frustrating nature of BGs, I have a lot of fun with them. Any improvements to address teamwork in BGs would be great. To breathe new life into BGs, I'd give it tiered campaign rewards like Cyrodil (solo and group queue options), a separate ranked group queue, and most importantly a thoroughly good MMR system to make sure players are not outmatched consistently.

I'd also argue that a competitive ranked queue if done correctly could be one of the prongs of addressing Cyrodil lag problems. A properly done competitve ranked BG mode would give Cyrodil players another option to pvp and thus alleviate some traffic from Cyrodil.

The first paragraph is just wrong. If someone is a/an "inexperienced/squishy/feeder" that gets themselves killed quickly, they aren't going to rack up a large damage taken stat because they will be spending a large portion of their time dead and waiting to spawn and running back to the fight, instead of surviving longer and continuously taking damage. On the other hand, if someone is a legit "tank" then they often aren't much of a threat, and smarter players will tend to ignore them and only kill them if the rest of that tank's team is dead.

People need to see the damage taken stat as damage being "shared" for the team, instead of something that troll tanks see as a measurement of their ability to be a unthreatening damage sponge that deals little damage.

True, I'll admit that I completely overlooked the respawn and running portions. Maybe my personal bias against some players who throw themselves repeatedly into the fray. On some level you have to concede to troll builds that they're well thought out and can be effective against folks who aren't thinking about how best to win the match. I'm still surprised folks go chasing after tanky builds based around vampire mist form.

Arcanasx · July 2020

WiredandTired wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

WiredandTired wrote: »

Unsure if this is a good idea or not. I'm leaning towards no. In the context of just showing damage taken to be an indicator of a job well done, how does it differentiate from a guy who is inexperienced/squishy/feeder vs a legit tank? In fact it'd be easy to inflate the damage taken number if you're say a squishy magicka player getting deleted repeatedly and fast.

It would only be beneficial to some overall larger charges to battlegrounds, say queuing by role. It'd be a worthwhile stat to evaluate the tank player if he is indeed built tanky or fulfilling that role. On the other hand, any decent opposing team if you're adapting to win either deathmatch or objectives will try to ignore the tank anyways (with the exception of chaosball, where you're forced to dogpile on a potentially tanky player anyways). Anybody who repeatedly beats on the tank uncoordinated or as primary target is not playing tactically. In that case the tank needs to run interference and peel opposing dps off their healers or squishy, or spearheading the charge to stun and set focus targets. Those would be other stats that would be hard to track. Teamwork is an intangible thing and largely left up to the players. Numbers can help but they hardly help if they can't be interpreted correctly.

Despite the lopsided nature and frustrating nature of BGs, I have a lot of fun with them. Any improvements to address teamwork in BGs would be great. To breathe new life into BGs, I'd give it tiered campaign rewards like Cyrodil (solo and group queue options), a separate ranked group queue, and most importantly a thoroughly good MMR system to make sure players are not outmatched consistently.

I'd also argue that a competitive ranked queue if done correctly could be one of the prongs of addressing Cyrodil lag problems. A properly done competitve ranked BG mode would give Cyrodil players another option to pvp and thus alleviate some traffic from Cyrodil.

The first paragraph is just wrong. If someone is a/an "inexperienced/squishy/feeder" that gets themselves killed quickly, they aren't going to rack up a large damage taken stat because they will be spending a large portion of their time dead and waiting to spawn and running back to the fight, instead of surviving longer and continuously taking damage. On the other hand, if someone is a legit "tank" then they often aren't much of a threat, and smarter players will tend to ignore them and only kill them if the rest of that tank's team is dead.

People need to see the damage taken stat as damage being "shared" for the team, instead of something that troll tanks see as a measurement of their ability to be a unthreatening damage sponge that deals little damage.

True, I'll admit that I completely overlooked the respawn and running portions. Maybe my personal bias against some players who throw themselves repeatedly into the fray. On some level you have to concede to troll builds that they're well thought out and can be effective against folks who aren't thinking about how best to win the match. I'm still surprised folks go chasing after tanky builds based around vampire mist form.

I understand your view, its just that whatever concern I have for troll tank players who see this as some sort of "challenge" is greatly overshadowed by the benefit it would be to be able to see the distribution of actual damage taken across teams. Even then, a troll tank player in a match with players who play smart is unlikely to have that much of an inflated damage received stat compared to other more balanced builds anyways.

An example of better showing team contribution; you're able to see a melee DD focused player that goes 10 and 7 but also receives 3 times the damage than say the 12/2 mag sorc that stays in the back, benefitting from that melee player taking that damage and alleviating pressure off of that mag sorc so they can spend more time playing offensively.

The idea presented is reasonable and fair, and have yet to see a good argument to be made against it.

Hotdog_23 · July 2020

+1

Yes it would be nice to see damage taken. Especially for console players who don't have add-ons that show it for us.