Revert Morag Tong

Skjaldbjorn · July 2020

Alright, perhaps my other thread was a bit long-winded and jumped too much. That's fair, honestly. The central point I was trying to drive home with a sledgehammer is that the proposed Morag Tong change, +10% disease damage, is incredibly unhealthy and dismantles what is reasonably effective balance amongst Stamina DPS based on the current cycle. Stamina Sorcrerer, Nightblade, Necromancer and Templar are all in at least reasonably good places. That is better than it has been in any patch in quite some time. Typically, the balance has been incredibly top heavy with one class (usually Necro) sitting at the top laughing at the peons. Now, we have a minimum of three and a maximum of four highly competitive options.

HOWEVER, once trials actually become a factor, the wheels fall off. Morag Tong will be completely viable on a tank. It's easy to apply and maintain, too easy honestly, and gives immense benefit to the two "front-runner" Stamina DPS in Necromancer and Nightblade, who's core skills are almost entirely Disease damage based. It's not a flat 10% buff to their damage, obviously, but it's going to be hugely significant. Just looking at Blastbones in a vacuum, giving that skill another 10% damage is absurdly good.

If this change is going to make it to live, and by that I mean the Disease damage ramp, put it on a poor Stam variant, like Warden or DK. Don't slap it on an item tanks can run. Give it the Engulfing treatment. Throw it on Shalks or Noxious Breath and have it scale with highest offensive stat. That pushes you to bring Stamina DPS that aren't exactly the greatest through group utility, and pushes the buff away from supports just stacking on another set for no real loss.

OlumoGarbag · July 2020

Im confused what this is about. Pve, pvp? Trial tanks dealing damage?

Can you pls explain what the purpose of you post is? Is it a nerf thread or a buff thread?

Onefrkncrzypope · July 2020

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

Im confused what this is about. Pve, pvp? Trial tanks dealing damage?

Can you pls explain what the purpose of you post is? Is it a nerf thread or a buff thread?

The tl:Dr: the disease damage buff to morag set makes stamblades and stamcros more desirable than SDK and warden. Tanks can wear it and it's too easy

Koubo · July 2020

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

Im confused what this is about. Pve, pvp? Trial tanks dealing damage?

Can you pls explain what the purpose of you post is? Is it a nerf thread or a buff thread?

The tl:Dr: the disease damage buff to morag set makes stamblades and stamcros more desirable than SDK and warden. Tanks can wear it and it's too easy

I like how Stam Sorc&Templar just disapear from the list xD

Onefrkncrzypope · July 2020

Koubo wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

Im confused what this is about. Pve, pvp? Trial tanks dealing damage?

Can you pls explain what the purpose of you post is? Is it a nerf thread or a buff thread?

The tl:Dr: the disease damage buff to morag set makes stamblades and stamcros more desirable than SDK and warden. Tanks can wear it and it's too easy

I like how Stam Sorc&Templar just disapear from the list xD

Morag tong doesn't boost physical damage. Thats why.

YandereGirlfriend · July 2020

I can't support a call for nerfs.

While it would be nice if Venomous Claw got the Tong poison buff we all know how ZOS rolls and that such thinking outside of the box is beyond them.

validifyedneb18_ESO · July 2020

I agree, the morag tong was a bad idea and has only worked to thwart the enevitable domination of the Dunmet over the continent of tamriel.

oh you mean the set...

WrathOfInnos · July 2020

Did something change with the proc condition? I thought it was always easy for tanks to use.

I can’t agree with the idea to remove the disease damage. I enjoy these types of specific damage type buffs (also Engulfing Flames and sets like War Maiden). Stamcro may have been on top for too long, but that’s no reason to nerf Stamblades. Sure Stamden is the worst class and could use a buff, but the Morag Tong change is good for everyone. Even Stamden benefits from it, because it’s much more likely that groups will have the Morag Tong set debuff now, which boosts several Stamden poison skills by 10%. After the Poison Injection and Spiders nerfs I don’t think many groups saw Morag as a necessary group set, but if it affects 3/6 classes now it will likely come back.

Kittytravel · July 2020

I don't really tank myself, I have one and can do it but by no means do I pursue HM so I'm asking for a bit of clarification on part of your post.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

If this change is going to make it to live, and by that I mean the Disease damage ramp, put it on a poor Stam variant, like Warden or DK. Don't slap it on an item tanks can run. Give it the Engulfing treatment. Throw it on Shalks or Noxious Breath and have it scale with highest offensive stat. That pushes you to bring Stamina DPS that aren't exactly the greatest through group utility, and pushes the buff away from supports just stacking on another set for no real loss.

Why exactly would Morag Tong be better to run on a tank than any other current set available to tanks that are group-focused? Wouldn't this only make Morag Tong effective in a group running primarily Stamblade/Stamcro?

I just don't see how this change is an issue for PvE side content... I really can't see how 10% on a few select abilities would be better than the current sets Tanks run for group support namely Ebon/Akaviri/Yolnahkriin/Torugs?

Perhaps I'm wrong but I'd be interested to see someone run a vet trial with four "normal" tank sets and then swap one out for Morag Tong with the buffs and do it all over again and see how big the difference really is. But in my head I can't fathom this being that large of a difference unless the group was already primarily Stamblade/Stamcro DDs which would be strange in itself considering the amount of buffs you'd be losing out on.

Celestro · July 2020

Kittytravel wrote: »

I don't really tank myself, I have one and can do it but by no means do I pursue HM so I'm asking for a bit of clarification on part of your post.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

If this change is going to make it to live, and by that I mean the Disease damage ramp, put it on a poor Stam variant, like Warden or DK. Don't slap it on an item tanks can run. Give it the Engulfing treatment. Throw it on Shalks or Noxious Breath and have it scale with highest offensive stat. That pushes you to bring Stamina DPS that aren't exactly the greatest through group utility, and pushes the buff away from supports just stacking on another set for no real loss.

Why exactly would Morag Tong be better to run on a tank than any other current set available to tanks that are group-focused? Wouldn't this only make Morag Tong effective in a group running primarily Stamblade/Stamcro?

I just don't see how this change is an issue for PvE side content... I really can't see how 10% on a few select abilities would be better than the current sets Tanks run for group support namely Ebon/Akaviri/Yolnahkriin/Torugs?

Perhaps I'm wrong but I'd be interested to see someone run a vet trial with four "normal" tank sets and then swap one out for Morag Tong with the buffs and do it all over again and see how big the difference really is. But in my head I can't fathom this being that large of a difference unless the group was already primarily Stamblade/Stamcro DDs which would be strange in itself considering the amount of buffs you'd be losing out on.

Generally, some patches result in the meta shifting, which in this case, would result in the stamblade/stamcro group composition that's being referenced. As for buffs being lost out on, there's still what the classes of the tanks and healers that will bring to the table which would probably more than suffice. It's like the patch(es?) when stamcros dominated because of Major Vulnerability.

I similarly agree on not nerfing a set just because it will shift the meta in a certain way despite the ability being a technically healthy addition to support capabilities. I understand that's the direction that likely to be taken as far as how group composition might go but ultimately, it seems like necros will largely always have a place in groups one way or another. Whoever else manages to get in will always just rotate out from time to time. /shrug

Vaoh · July 2020

Actually I think it would be better if Damage Types were more streamlined within classes, so that they could properly spec into elemental builds and use sets which buff one type of element. Dragonknight is a perfect example.

• Mag DK stays as Flame.
• Stam DK stays as Poison.
• Mag Sorc should have their Magic attacks deal Shock damage.
• Stam Sorc stays as Physical.
• Mag NB stays as Magic.
• Stam NB should have their Physical attacks deal Disease damage.
• Mag Warden should have their Magic attacks deal Frost damage.
• Stam Warden should have their Physical attacks deal Poison damage.
• Mag Templar stays as Magic.
• Stam Templar stays as Physical.
• Mag Necro stays as all elements.
• Stam Necro should have their Physical attacks deal Disease damage.

For Magicka we’d have one Fire, one Shock, one Ice, two Magic, and one who uses all elements. For Stam we’d have two Physical, two Poison, two Disease.

Just my thoughts. More or less this is already the intent ZOS has for the classes but they don’t go about portraying it that well. Warden is the biggest offender by being the “Frost Mage” but not even a viable DPS if played that way. It make things much more interesting to give classes identities imo. Right now Dragonknight does this best with the Fire/Poison theme.

And then afterward they could allow new ways for damage types to be buffed for the group instead of only Flame Damage (through engulfing flames).

Kittytravel · July 2020

Celestro wrote: »

Kittytravel wrote: »

I don't really tank myself, I have one and can do it but by no means do I pursue HM so I'm asking for a bit of clarification on part of your post.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

If this change is going to make it to live, and by that I mean the Disease damage ramp, put it on a poor Stam variant, like Warden or DK. Don't slap it on an item tanks can run. Give it the Engulfing treatment. Throw it on Shalks or Noxious Breath and have it scale with highest offensive stat. That pushes you to bring Stamina DPS that aren't exactly the greatest through group utility, and pushes the buff away from supports just stacking on another set for no real loss.

Why exactly would Morag Tong be better to run on a tank than any other current set available to tanks that are group-focused? Wouldn't this only make Morag Tong effective in a group running primarily Stamblade/Stamcro?

I just don't see how this change is an issue for PvE side content... I really can't see how 10% on a few select abilities would be better than the current sets Tanks run for group support namely Ebon/Akaviri/Yolnahkriin/Torugs?

Perhaps I'm wrong but I'd be interested to see someone run a vet trial with four "normal" tank sets and then swap one out for Morag Tong with the buffs and do it all over again and see how big the difference really is. But in my head I can't fathom this being that large of a difference unless the group was already primarily Stamblade/Stamcro DDs which would be strange in itself considering the amount of buffs you'd be losing out on.

Generally, some patches result in the meta shifting, which in this case, would result in the stamblade/stamcro group composition that's being referenced. As for buffs being lost out on, there's still what the classes of the tanks and healers that will bring to the table which would probably more than suffice. It's like the patch(es?) when stamcros dominated because of Major Vulnerability.

I similarly agree on not nerfing a set just because it will shift the meta in a certain way despite the ability being a technically healthy addition to support capabilities. I understand that's the direction that likely to be taken as far as how group composition might go but ultimately, it seems like necros will largely always have a place in groups one way or another. Whoever else manages to get in will always just rotate out from time to time. /shrug

I was assuming that was the reasoning but also I didn't want it to be the reasoning for the logical issue that is why approve any of the changes if it will shift the meta? Why stop at Morag Tong? Might as well not change the game ever again because any change has the slightest chance of shifting the Meta.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2020

Kittytravel wrote: »

Celestro wrote: »

Kittytravel wrote: »

I don't really tank myself, I have one and can do it but by no means do I pursue HM so I'm asking for a bit of clarification on part of your post.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

If this change is going to make it to live, and by that I mean the Disease damage ramp, put it on a poor Stam variant, like Warden or DK. Don't slap it on an item tanks can run. Give it the Engulfing treatment. Throw it on Shalks or Noxious Breath and have it scale with highest offensive stat. That pushes you to bring Stamina DPS that aren't exactly the greatest through group utility, and pushes the buff away from supports just stacking on another set for no real loss.

Why exactly would Morag Tong be better to run on a tank than any other current set available to tanks that are group-focused? Wouldn't this only make Morag Tong effective in a group running primarily Stamblade/Stamcro?

I just don't see how this change is an issue for PvE side content... I really can't see how 10% on a few select abilities would be better than the current sets Tanks run for group support namely Ebon/Akaviri/Yolnahkriin/Torugs?

Perhaps I'm wrong but I'd be interested to see someone run a vet trial with four "normal" tank sets and then swap one out for Morag Tong with the buffs and do it all over again and see how big the difference really is. But in my head I can't fathom this being that large of a difference unless the group was already primarily Stamblade/Stamcro DDs which would be strange in itself considering the amount of buffs you'd be losing out on.

Generally, some patches result in the meta shifting, which in this case, would result in the stamblade/stamcro group composition that's being referenced. As for buffs being lost out on, there's still what the classes of the tanks and healers that will bring to the table which would probably more than suffice. It's like the patch(es?) when stamcros dominated because of Major Vulnerability.

I similarly agree on not nerfing a set just because it will shift the meta in a certain way despite the ability being a technically healthy addition to support capabilities. I understand that's the direction that likely to be taken as far as how group composition might go but ultimately, it seems like necros will largely always have a place in groups one way or another. Whoever else manages to get in will always just rotate out from time to time. /shrug

I was assuming that was the reasoning but also I didn't want it to be the reasoning for the logical issue that is why approve any of the changes if it will shift the meta? Why stop at Morag Tong? Might as well not change the game ever again because any change has the slightest chance of shifting the Meta.

@Kittytravel The meta shifts regardless of the Tong change. That's my point. Stamblade is back. Stam Sorc looks very, very promising. Stamplar looks solid. Stamcro is unharmed. That leaves us with four competitive, fully viable Stamina options for Stonethorn. The morag change pushes us to two - Stamblade and Stamcro. It's literally a purposeless change. It brings no benefit to the health of the game short-term.

This change actually harms the meta more than helping it. Having a meta where more classes are brought up to viability should be the goal, not to constantly have two at the top and everyone else inferior. That's nonsense.

Kittytravel · July 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Kittytravel wrote: »

Celestro wrote: »

Kittytravel wrote: »

I don't really tank myself, I have one and can do it but by no means do I pursue HM so I'm asking for a bit of clarification on part of your post.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

If this change is going to make it to live, and by that I mean the Disease damage ramp, put it on a poor Stam variant, like Warden or DK. Don't slap it on an item tanks can run. Give it the Engulfing treatment. Throw it on Shalks or Noxious Breath and have it scale with highest offensive stat. That pushes you to bring Stamina DPS that aren't exactly the greatest through group utility, and pushes the buff away from supports just stacking on another set for no real loss.

Why exactly would Morag Tong be better to run on a tank than any other current set available to tanks that are group-focused? Wouldn't this only make Morag Tong effective in a group running primarily Stamblade/Stamcro?

I just don't see how this change is an issue for PvE side content... I really can't see how 10% on a few select abilities would be better than the current sets Tanks run for group support namely Ebon/Akaviri/Yolnahkriin/Torugs?

Perhaps I'm wrong but I'd be interested to see someone run a vet trial with four "normal" tank sets and then swap one out for Morag Tong with the buffs and do it all over again and see how big the difference really is. But in my head I can't fathom this being that large of a difference unless the group was already primarily Stamblade/Stamcro DDs which would be strange in itself considering the amount of buffs you'd be losing out on.

Generally, some patches result in the meta shifting, which in this case, would result in the stamblade/stamcro group composition that's being referenced. As for buffs being lost out on, there's still what the classes of the tanks and healers that will bring to the table which would probably more than suffice. It's like the patch(es?) when stamcros dominated because of Major Vulnerability.

I similarly agree on not nerfing a set just because it will shift the meta in a certain way despite the ability being a technically healthy addition to support capabilities. I understand that's the direction that likely to be taken as far as how group composition might go but ultimately, it seems like necros will largely always have a place in groups one way or another. Whoever else manages to get in will always just rotate out from time to time. /shrug

I was assuming that was the reasoning but also I didn't want it to be the reasoning for the logical issue that is why approve any of the changes if it will shift the meta? Why stop at Morag Tong? Might as well not change the game ever again because any change has the slightest chance of shifting the Meta.

@Kittytravel The meta shifts regardless of the Tong change. That's my point. Stamblade is back. Stam Sorc looks very, very promising. Stamplar looks solid. Stamcro is unharmed. That leaves us with four competitive, fully viable Stamina options for Stonethorn. The morag change pushes us to two - Stamblade and Stamcro. It's literally a purposeless change. It brings no benefit to the health of the game short-term.

This change actually harms the meta more than helping it. Having a meta where more classes are brought up to viability should be the goal, not to constantly have two at the top and everyone else inferior. That's nonsense.

Why would the change to Morag make Stamsorc/Stamplar "Not Competitive"?... Or do you mean "Not top tier BiS for leaderboard runs"? In which case who cares there will always be that issue with Leaderboards and meta chasing... There isn't a way to avoid that; 500 DPS difference is all it takes for that type of player to change entire classes to shave off those 10 seconds.

Again a demonstration would be far more apt in proving your point of how much of a massive difference this would make but I don't think it's the do-or-die scenario you seem to paint it as.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2020

Kittytravel wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Kittytravel wrote: »

Celestro wrote: »

Kittytravel wrote: »

I don't really tank myself, I have one and can do it but by no means do I pursue HM so I'm asking for a bit of clarification on part of your post.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

If this change is going to make it to live, and by that I mean the Disease damage ramp, put it on a poor Stam variant, like Warden or DK. Don't slap it on an item tanks can run. Give it the Engulfing treatment. Throw it on Shalks or Noxious Breath and have it scale with highest offensive stat. That pushes you to bring Stamina DPS that aren't exactly the greatest through group utility, and pushes the buff away from supports just stacking on another set for no real loss.

Why exactly would Morag Tong be better to run on a tank than any other current set available to tanks that are group-focused? Wouldn't this only make Morag Tong effective in a group running primarily Stamblade/Stamcro?

I just don't see how this change is an issue for PvE side content... I really can't see how 10% on a few select abilities would be better than the current sets Tanks run for group support namely Ebon/Akaviri/Yolnahkriin/Torugs?

Perhaps I'm wrong but I'd be interested to see someone run a vet trial with four "normal" tank sets and then swap one out for Morag Tong with the buffs and do it all over again and see how big the difference really is. But in my head I can't fathom this being that large of a difference unless the group was already primarily Stamblade/Stamcro DDs which would be strange in itself considering the amount of buffs you'd be losing out on.

Generally, some patches result in the meta shifting, which in this case, would result in the stamblade/stamcro group composition that's being referenced. As for buffs being lost out on, there's still what the classes of the tanks and healers that will bring to the table which would probably more than suffice. It's like the patch(es?) when stamcros dominated because of Major Vulnerability.

I similarly agree on not nerfing a set just because it will shift the meta in a certain way despite the ability being a technically healthy addition to support capabilities. I understand that's the direction that likely to be taken as far as how group composition might go but ultimately, it seems like necros will largely always have a place in groups one way or another. Whoever else manages to get in will always just rotate out from time to time. /shrug

I was assuming that was the reasoning but also I didn't want it to be the reasoning for the logical issue that is why approve any of the changes if it will shift the meta? Why stop at Morag Tong? Might as well not change the game ever again because any change has the slightest chance of shifting the Meta.

@Kittytravel The meta shifts regardless of the Tong change. That's my point. Stamblade is back. Stam Sorc looks very, very promising. Stamplar looks solid. Stamcro is unharmed. That leaves us with four competitive, fully viable Stamina options for Stonethorn. The morag change pushes us to two - Stamblade and Stamcro. It's literally a purposeless change. It brings no benefit to the health of the game short-term.

This change actually harms the meta more than helping it. Having a meta where more classes are brought up to viability should be the goal, not to constantly have two at the top and everyone else inferior. That's nonsense.

Why would the change to Morag make Stamsorc/Stamplar "Not Competitive"?... Or do you mean "Not top tier BiS for leaderboard runs"? In which case who cares there will always be that issue with Leaderboards and meta chasing... There isn't a way to avoid that; 500 DPS difference is all it takes for that type of player to change entire classes to shave off those 10 seconds.

Again a demonstration would be far more apt in proving your point of how much of a massive difference this would make but I don't think it's the do-or-die scenario you seem to paint it as.

@Kittytravel People follow the meta, which is dictated by end-game groups. You're right, it can be something as little as 500 DPS. However, in most cases, a 500 DPS gap won't cause hate or frustration, especially if the player is talented with the class in question. However, the more you push the gap, the more people feel compelled to play it without regard to their own skill level on the class. Necro is a fine example. I have watched so many people switch to Necro and be absolutely abysmal. Their numbers are good with other classes or builds, but the meta defines them.

It's a general problem in ESO, I call it "Square Peg, Round Hole" syndrome. However, in the current setup, the gaps are very small without Morag. They might widen or shorten a bit in raid. Hard to predict that. If you consider the affected skills make up somewhere around 20-25% of each classes' total DPS in an average parse/fight, that's a tremendous amount of damage gained over the other stam DPS who have little to no recourse to bridge the gap.