PVP Proc Sets: Please listen to the feedback.

Girl_Number8 · July 2020

NMA is exactly the kind of PvP sets that we need in the game, fair and balanced.

I know that there are not a lot of people that feel 1 v Xers are important in the decisions of balance but we are.

The current Proc Set push on the PTS will hurt PvP, not help it.

PvP is enjoyable because of the skill gap that pushes players to become better. It cultivates a fun and enjoyable PvPing experience, where players learn over time.

Right now, how things are on the PTS, it is absolutely not a healthy direction for PvP in ESO, imo.

With how one can stack proc sets, there will be very little to no skill involved in PvP. Meaning the causals actually will die even faster to us 1 v Xers. I still feel skill should be a part of the game.

If ZOS decides to go this direction, they will be robbing the new players of the ESO PvP experience. Not to mention, these newer players will be farther from understanding how to make a better well rounded build or play one.

The NMA nerf is not needed. At the same time the Proc Set Meta the combat team have created on the PTS is less needed.

Please listen to the feedback you are getting and keep what skill remains in PvP.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

jecks33 · July 2020

Zos: "No"

FangOfTheTwoMoons · July 2020

I disagree with the first part. 1vX'ing shouldn't be balanced around. If a change hurts 1vX'ing so be it. It shouldn't be a thing anyway lol.

I will say that 1vX'ing does require a certain amount of skill tho so I respect it, but pvp shouldn't be designed around it. The potential upcoming proc meta probably wont kill 1vX'ing anyway, you'll always have idiots who fall for the kiting at a resource.

As for everything else I agree 100%. If we get this proc meta we're just gonna be taking huge leaps backwards in PvP and it definitely takes skill out of the equation.

West93 · July 2020

I agree its dumb, one tamriel proc damage meta all over again followed by another tank meta after ZOS nerf procsets 2 patches later.

History repeats itself.

FrankonPC · July 2020

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

I disagree with the first part. 1vX'ing shouldn't be balanced around. If a change hurts 1vX'ing so be it. It shouldn't be a thing anyway lol.

I will say that 1vX'ing does require a certain amount of skill tho so I respect it, but pvp shouldn't be designed around it. The potential upcoming proc meta probably wont kill 1vX'ing anyway, you'll always have idiots who fall for the kiting at a resource.

As for everything else I agree 100%. If we get this proc meta we're just gonna be taking huge leaps backwards in PvP and it definitely takes skill out of the equation.

You should not build around 1 v x. You should build the game around giving classes the tools that they need to kill all other classes in a 1 v 1 environment. This chess match of different moves, combinations and abilities is what makes the game so great.

When you have issues with classes not having all of the tools they need, then the game gets annoying to play on that specific class.

If you move towards this type of balancing, it will be a more enjoyable game for all players, but 1 v x will still naturally exist. You cannot have a complex game like this with the defensive system it has(healing and class-based defenses) as well as the offensive combinations to kill people that this game has without having a disparity in skill level. The skill level disparity is where the x'ing becomes prominent.

In order to alleviate and make x'ing less possible, having more people provide tips and information as to HOW to play this game, defend themselves and deal damage would be needed. There's not much in this department though, but there's some.

West93 · July 2020

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

I disagree with the first part. 1vX'ing shouldn't be balanced around. If a change hurts 1vX'ing so be it. It shouldn't be a thing anyway lol.

I will say that 1vX'ing does require a certain amount of skill tho so I respect it, but pvp shouldn't be designed around it. The potential upcoming proc meta probably wont kill 1vX'ing anyway, you'll always have idiots who fall for the kiting at a resource.

As for everything else I agree 100%. If we get this proc meta we're just gonna be taking huge leaps backwards in PvP and it definitely takes skill out of the equation.

Game is not balanced for 1vx in first place, 1vx happens only because there are a lot of inexperienced players, or players who come to farm AP in pve gear or just for tier rewards, leveling up alliance skillines for pve etc which I guess is like 90% of cyrodiil population.

1vx doesn't happen against similarly skilled players with good knowledge of class pvp and build.

FangOfTheTwoMoons · July 2020

@West93 @FrankonPC you two do realize what you're saying is exactly the point i was trying to make in the first place? I feel like you guys took what I was saying the wrong way.

FrankonPC · July 2020

You said it shouldn't exist in the first place. It will exist if the game is remotely balanced, that's where we disagree.

Girl_Number8 · July 2020

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

I disagree with the first part. 1vX'ing shouldn't be balanced around. If a change hurts 1vX'ing so be it. It shouldn't be a thing anyway lol.

I will say that 1vX'ing does require a certain amount of skill tho so I respect it, but pvp shouldn't be designed around it. The potential upcoming proc meta probably wont kill 1vX'ing anyway, you'll always have idiots who fall for the kiting at a resource.

As for everything else I agree 100%. If we get this proc meta we're just gonna be taking huge leaps backwards in PvP and it definitely takes skill out of the equation.

Perhaps I phrased it wrong. I did not ask them to balance around 1 v Xers, I was just saying our feedback is important too. Most players want a challenge.

This is not going to hurt 1 v Xing, it is going to hurt PvP. Xing multiple players from Overtuned Proc sets will be boring and less fun.

There should be some skill left to ESO PvP.

FangOfTheTwoMoons · July 2020

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

I will say that 1vX'ing does require a certain amount of skill tho so I respect it, but pvp shouldn't be designed around it. The potential upcoming proc meta probably wont kill 1vX'ing anyway, you'll always have idiots who fall for the kiting at a resource.

As for everything else I agree 100%. If we get this proc meta we're just gonna be taking huge leaps backwards in PvP and it definitely takes skill out of the equation.

FrankonPC wrote: »

If you move towards this type of balancing, it will be a more enjoyable game for all players, but 1 v x will still naturally exist. You cannot have a complex game like this with the defensive system it has(healing and class-based defenses) as well as the offensive combinations to kill people that this game has without having a disparity in skill level. The skill level disparity is where the x'ing becomes prominent.

What i said is what you said. I said you'll always have people being kited around, it means exactly what you're saying.
You don't need to balance around 1vX'ing because all it boils down to is less skilled players falling for silly gimmicks and that will happen no matter what changes go though.

And just because it exists no matter what, doesn't mean it deserves to exist.

ItsJustHashtag · July 2020

I feel like there is a lot of people on here that was not around for the original proc meta.

lucky_Sage · July 2020

Don’t worry zos is giving better tips on fight like listen to inspiring music like Bon Jovi like I got the other day in a BG.
now for real procs will only hurt new players with them having a false since of skill. I have maimed the same class since I started playing at console launch and I still learn things all the time when playing. Procs are never a good thing free dmg with easy conditions especially since they do more dmg Han ults

OrderoftheDarkness · July 2020

Lol balrog+nma+... is not a mainstay of the skill. While this game revolves around nausea + burst + Major Expedition and other sources of mobility in addition to licking textures, this game will never be any kind of skill level. Although you can continue to imagine that each new addition reveals new beautiful potentials for different kinds of kills, this is just veiled changes of the standard ESO template - burst combined with mobility. At this stage of the game, no curses can be implemented, even Sorc's curses are just another kind of explosion. The only thing the developers tried to do was stam blastbones + defile - this is a kind of massive curse, which was eventually implemented in the canon of the standard Stam explosion. Therefore, with this approach, without CP expansion or new damage types and game mechanics, further changes will be called going in a circle or back and forth. Although you have the right to choose what you are interested in.

Mayrael · July 2020

As @FrankonPC wrote, it is impossible to eliminate 1vX. When you give better, easy to use tools to everyone experts will always find a way to use them more precisely, it may take some time for them to find the best possible way but eventually they will find and use it without hessitation.

Give an ordinary man and a soldier common 9mm gun, then replace it with M-4. Do you think that now the ordinary guy has more chances against that soldier when both are using M-4?

Same goes to equipment. Presented proc set changes bring nothing in terms of ending 1vXing, it will just shift the meta for the best players who will adapt pretty fast, while the ones who will really hurt from those changes are those who won't adapt - meaning casual players who had problems with gearing up already.

Strider__Roshin · July 2020

jecks33 wrote: »

Zos: "No"

"Heh"

Faulgor · July 2020

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

PvP is enjoyable because of the skill gap that pushes players to become better. It cultivates a fun and enjoyable PvPing experience, where players learn over time.

Maybe that's the case for you, but getting roflstomped over and over is not most people's idea of fun, and the learning curve in ESO is as steep as Varen's Wall because the game doesn't teach you anything.
I'm not saying reliance on proc sets is a good path for ESO's PvP, but claiming that the skill gap "cultivates a fun and enjoyable experience" is just laughable when it has driven many more people away than it has drawn in.

relentless_turnip · July 2020

Faulgor wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

PvP is enjoyable because of the skill gap that pushes players to become better. It cultivates a fun and enjoyable PvPing experience, where players learn over time.

Maybe that's the case for you, but getting roflstomped over and over is not most people's idea of fun, and the learning curve in ESO is as steep as Varen's Wall because the game doesn't teach you anything.
I'm not saying reliance on proc sets is a good path for ESO's PvP, but claiming that the skill gap "cultivates a fun and enjoyable experience" is just laughable when it has driven many more people away than it has drawn in.

As pointed out though, the proc set meta will only maintain this divide. The best players will equip the best possible set up and continue stomping.

Now if they were to make proc sets a viable option(equal to not better)to stat based builds, then you may have an easier entry into PvP. This is why it is referred to as a meta. As mentioned in many threads and isthereno1else's video the issue is you can build very tanky and have high passive damage. We are just coming out of a tank meta, with the balance between damage, mitigation and healing in u26 in a better place. This change would be a step back.

Sarousse · July 2020

On live right now : max buffed, taking risks to go on melee range to land a wrecking blow, 7.3k damage.

Then a random guy does nothing special and gets a free 7.8k proc (with 25k resists), that you can't really avoid when fighting several people.

Can't wait the full proc meta on next patch.

FrankonPC · July 2020

What i said is what you said. I said you'll always have people being kited around, it means exactly what you're saying.
You don't need to balance around 1vX'ing because all it boils down to is less skilled players falling for silly gimmicks and that will happen no matter what changes go though.

And just because it exists no matter what, doesn't mean it deserves to exist.

See, this is once again where we are disagreeing. Any game with any level of skill gap is going to have some sort of potential outnumbered aspect to it. How much is up for debate of course.

If you try and end 1 v x or outnumbered pvp, you're attempting to eliminate all skill gap in the game. I think most players that play any sort of PvP want a skill gap. Maybe I'm wrong though.

FrankonPC · July 2020

Mayrael wrote: »

Same goes to equipment. Presented proc set changes bring nothing in terms of ending 1vXing, it will just shift the meta for the best players who will adapt pretty fast, while the ones who will really hurt from those changes are those who won't adapt - meaning casual players who had problems with gearing up already.

Exactly this. Imagine being a new player because of greymoor. You've played the chapter, leveled up and have finally started to pvp. You get your gear crafted, new moon and clever on (insert class here because it's ok on just about everything right now). You have a solid, easy to acquire beginner build that has end game potential on most specs. Now you have to learn the intricacies of the game, stam sustain, burst, survival, line of sight, defiles, etc.

You're finally starting to get better with your imperfect but solid build, and then THIS patch drops, rendering your entire build obsolete. It's not that it's not BIS anymore, it's that it's completely worthless because the good players that have hours and time invested already have the gear that you yet don't, and where you once had a chance you just don't anymore until you get the same gear they do.

Gear variety should exist. Proc sets can be bis, but they shouldn't be so good that they render other options obsolete. New gear becoming BIS is fun, but it's not good for retention if it's so good that all other builds are outclassed just by the design of the spec.

In the same way that new moon and fury was bis for months and finally got adjusted so that there were options, proc sets are just replacing it.

Lortie · July 2020

Unless ZOS decides to take a 180 on this PTS, idk about ya'll but im probably gonna take a six-month break till they nerf it to the ground.

Jman100582 · July 2020

as a 1vxer/small scaler, im just going to put this out there: regardless of the patch there has always been some level of 1vx. yes sometimes its easier, yes sometimes its harder. If you are a new player or even an experienced player who believes that just by there being proc sets those "pesky kiters won't be able to 1vx" you are wrong. During the last proc meta there was plenty of 1vx. the argument shouldnt be "what do we balance this game around, 1vx or XvX?" as that isnt the point of this thread. The point is that proc sets will be detrimental to the pvp experience of ALL playstyles, which i agree on. I dont believe proc sets should go live how they are currently. Should they be as viable as max stat sets? Yes, they should, and it wouldnt harm the game if the two are actually equally viable. However, with the mere existence of the malacath ring, current pts proc sets will be significantly better then max stat

dhboy123 · July 2020

Strider__Roshin · July 2020

I'm pretty confident feedback is going to be ignored until one day they'll nerf them to the ground where they deserve and ZOS will act like the imbalance is some kind of revolutionary discovery that they stumbled upon.

MashmalloMan · July 2020

This is Elsweyr -> Scalebreaker -> Dragonhold all over again.

What we will be left with is proc (damage) sets that are absolute garbage because when ZOS swings too far 1 way, they swing just a absurdly far the opposite way.

I just need to say this since I haven't seen this argument yet.. Proc sets really wouldn't be that bad this patch if the past events to make stat based sets less valuable didn't happen.

AKA:

Elsweyr: dots do reasonable damage, most popular dots have their uses, however many older dots were completely abandoned, weak and used for niche scenarios. Examples: Soul Trap (useless), Entropy (major sorcery/hp buff), Scalding Rune (useless), Carve/Twin Slashes (low dmg, ignores resists making it good for pvp, bad in pve).

Scalebreaker: make all dots do the same damage over 10s as a standard, resulting in about 2.5* of a spammable. Soul Trap, Entropy, Scalding Rune all become useful for damage the first time since launch, VERY good change. The entire games balance gets thrown off since you can stack 10 skill slots worth of dots on a target and rotate reapplying them, with very little need to ever use a spammable and targets melting in every aspect of the game, VERY bad change. PVE rotations become boring and class identity is replaced by 6+ universally available dots. The PTS forums blew up with "ZOS, please don't do this, DOTS are way too strong."

ZOS did it anyway.

Dragonhold: ZOS: "dots are too strong, we're doing 1.5* damage of a spammable instead." All dots are weak af, weaker than Elsweyr levels, resulting in ALL dots becoming as weak as the Elsweyr Entropy, Soul Trap, etc, that were barely ever touched beyond niche scenarios. If everything is weak, nothing is? Every class aims for as much direct damage as possible resulting in people slotting passive skills again.. Inner Light, Camo Hunter or even CLANFEAR on a Stam Sorc, since the stat boost for spamming 5-6 essential skills that are buffed results in more dps and upfront burst damage than you could get with a more complicated/expensive rotation.

Greymoor: Defensive sets nerfed (mostly good), healing nerfed to 40% instead of 50% across the board instead of tackling the classes that can overheal like crazy. Malacath band releases, buffs proc (damage) sets and helps the user COMPLETELY avoid crit resistance, the most popular defensive trait on everyone's build.

Resulting conclusion: Your healing scales poorly, your dots scale worse, proc (damage) sets receive a +25% buff with Malacath and help you avoid crit resist. What is the point in investing into stats when every part of the past 3-4 patches has put actual skill tooltip damage and healing DOWN while raising free damage from proc sets UP?

It's clear to me at least. If healing was back to -50% and dots were somewhere in between 1.5* to 2.5* scaling, people wouldn't feel so punished to run sets that provided stat bonuses because their skills actually meant something again.

Just like Dragonhold, we will get a huge nerf to proc sets in U28 making them completely useless instead of balanced like they were pre U27. To be clear, I like proc sets, I think they're usually interesting and I see them as additional skills, but I don't want them to be so OP that we end up getting them reduced to dust a patch later.