Let's see how stamina players use magicka and magicka players use stamina

Stam: Use mag for utility skills
Mag: Use stam to block and roll dodge
Also Stam: Use stam to block, roll dodge, and do damage
Meanwhile mag: Have an entire mag pool just for doing damage

I have 1.5k stam recovery on my magsorc and a 17k stam pool. I can roll every 3-4 seconds and never run out of stam. I'd argue that when magicka classes spec into stamina, they'd be just as effective.

Bergzorn wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

Stamina benefits from a 15% cost reduction to their skills (base values, as compared to what would be considered balanced without this argument). ZOS' reasoning behind this is that stamina players have to use their main stat pool also for rolls, blocking, and break free. In practice, in PvP, this supposed disatvantage is more like an advantage.

The cost reduction was decreased from 20% to 15% a few years ago. IMO, it should be removed completely. Stamina players could still go for crazy weapon damage, but at a higher opportunity cost.

If you go for roll dodge directly, its gonna be like

Astrid wrote: »

>Roll dodge is too harsh on mag characters.
>Increase the cost of roll dodge
>?????

But its true tho, stamina users do have to use their main stat for block, dodge ,break free.

The difference is, magica has to build for some stamina (10k-15k in no CP) and stamina regeneration, or they will die from not being able to break the second or third CC in a fight.

Stamina can build for more magica and regeneration if they want to use a broader range of class skills, but they have options to go "full stamina".

I'm not saying neglecting magica on stamina toons is the best way to build, but IMO, the generic 15% cost reduction for stamina skills is not balanced.

Very few people go full stamina or magicka because everyone needs skills from the other bar to use. Going full stam as nightblade means you don't have enough magicka for cloak, you can only do 1 cloak and 1 shadow image or 1 shadow image and 1 teleport. Same thing goes for stamDk, warden,...etc. magicka is only limited us stamina on dodge roll, vlock or sprint.

15% stamina regen is totaly balance considering the fact that most actions like slotted skills and dodge roll, block, and sptring cost stamina where as magicka only affect slottedd skills.

Please remind me, if both specs use both their resource pools to the fullest, why again is there a 15% cost reduction for stamina skills? It's not that I don't get where the argument for cheaper stam skills comes from, it's more that I think it's not matching the reality in (no CP) PvP.

15% cost reduction is a lot, comparable to two five-piece set boni.

Lets say you have 2k stamina regen. 1 sec of block/dode can cost you extra 2k stamina just for not getting the regen tick. This effect can add up in fight.

Not convinced yet, blocking is not exclusive to stamina toons. Missing stamina regeneration ticks during block should be balanced with block cost, not broad cost reductions.

To be fair, there is not much you can say to change my mind. I thought a lot about it over the years, and found no argument that really warrants a strong generic cost reduction of stamina skills. This is based on personal observations how mag/stam chars build in no CP PvP.

As stam DK for example, I have to block which cost stamina and heal vigor which cost stamina and maybe sometimes do damage with noxous or claws which also cost stamina and maybe I yse obsidoun shield or coagulaing blood for extra heals, now as you can see, most of what have been used is stamina based, this shreds someones stamina pool if they don't have the cost reduction. On the other hand, magDK is also in melee and use block which cost stamina and heals with muten or any magicka heals(I don't think there would be magicka spec ever uses vigor) and then use shields if they want or go offensive with fiery breath, claws, whips...etc. most of the skills used cost magicka. Say if both mag and stam DK block and heal for 1-2 secs, stamDK will be using more stamina than magDk, somewhere around double if both are being attacked. You can only notic this point if you block with Ice staff while your block cost magicka instead of stamina on magicka spec.

StaticWave wrote: »

Let's see how stamina players use magicka and magicka players use stamina

Stam: Use mag for utility skills
Mag: Use stam to block and roll dodge
Also Stam: Use stam to block, roll dodge, and do damage
Meanwhile mag: Have an entire mag pool just for doing damage

I have 1.5k stam recovery on my magsorc and a 17k stam pool. I can roll every 3-4 seconds and never run out of stam. I'd argue that when magicka classes spec into stamina, they'd be just as effective.

Similar to you, I also build for stam sustain on mag characters as I feel its necessary, and aim for similar values to what you have.

However, with regard to your analysis of how characters use resources: you've left out that mag players also have utility skills, which generally cost magicka. So magicka players have to use magicka not just entirely for dealing damage but also for their utility skills, which is quite similar to stamina players using stamina not just for dealing damage, but also for roll dodge and block.

So I would say that magicka and stamina use their main and off stats in similar ways and with similar degrees of importance, but stamina gets a cost reduction anyway.

The clearest thing to me that indicates that there is an imbalance here is that there is another very obvious imbalance that counteracts it (at least for PvE), which is the existence of magickasteal but not staminasteal.
Given that there is no staminasteal, one would naturally assume that stamina characters would have significantly more issues sustaining compared to magicka characters in PvE, where the uptime on magickasteal is high. But this is not the case, as magicka and stamina builds still come out relatively equal in terms of sustain PvE.
This indicates to me that stamina naturally have much better sustain (from this cost reduction) which gets counteracted by the existence of magickasteal.
Even the value returned by magickasteal per second (300) is very close to the amount of cost reduction you get on a stamina spammable (difference of 2700-2295 = 405 but then reduced by armour passives).
This is all well and good for PvE, where uptime of magickasteal is high and often supplied by other players, but this isn't necessarily the case in PvP, where you would have to sacrifice a bar slot and a gcd to get it.

Do I think the cost reduction should be changed? I am not convinced this is the best solution, as then something would have to be done for PvE like the creation of staminasteal which would just take us further down the path to homogenisation of magicka/stamina. But I do think that there is a bit of imbalance that exists in PvP due to this which requires magicka builds to build more for their offstat than stamina builds, and it would be good if some other solution to address this could be found.

To a degree I think ZOS recognise this as there are some melee magicka skills, for example veiled strike/concealed weapon, that also got the cost reduction in recent updates. In a way this logic (melee skills getting the cost reduction) makes sense to me as a better reason for skills to get cost reduction, as being in melee means you are more likely to need to roll/block than if you are at range. So maybe a continuation/expansion of this strategy could work.

As to the OPs original suggestion - I don't think roll dodge needs such a cost increase, and if anything such an increase would actually have a worse effect on magicka players than stamina.

I dont think roll doge needs a nerf, as a defense mechanism it is fine as it is. Increasing roll dodge costs only punishes players with low stamina pools, that is magicka players.

What should be changed imo is the cp bonus to roll dodge via 120cp in Atronach, gaining tactician. The Atronach is a constellation into which magicka and stamina players both have to invest for damage, but its highest reward massively favors stamina players. That is bad game design. Also, with sets like Stuhn's which build upon off-balance for higher damage, roll dodge is one of only two game mechanism that gives you a 100% guarantee to off-balance your enemies and both are only resonably usable for stamina players. (Whereas Stuhns claims to be a hybrid set, haha.)

I would, btw, say exactly the same if the Tacitican would cast off-balance on enemies that hit your shields. Bad game design is bad game design, no matter which side it favors.

I wish my stam could roll dodge as mindlessly as many magsorcs do it. Playing noCP you have access to only about twice as much stamina as many magicka builds while being required to spend it on healing and damaging (two things that together cost more per minute than defensive blocking, dodging and breaking free)

This thread is like from 2015.

Mayrael wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Let's see how stamina players use magicka and magicka players use stamina

Stam: Use mag for utility skills
Mag: Use stam to block and roll dodge
Also Stam: Use stam to block, roll dodge, and do damage
Meanwhile mag: Have an entire mag pool just for doing damage

I have 1.5k stam recovery on my magsorc and a 17k stam pool. I can roll every 3-4 seconds and never run out of stam. I'd argue that when magicka classes spec into stamina, they'd be just as effective.

And pls tell me how much magicka regen and in general how big is your magicka pool on your stam toons?

I have 17k magicka and 1.2k regen on my stamsorc because streak costs a lot

Ok, nerf to roll/dodge BUT nerf too cost of shield for Magica, Sorc can have almost 100% uptime shield when stamina player cannot... for my Bow Ganker you can nerf this, much more magica player will die becaus they cannot dodge/roll

[snip]

magicka classes are in a good spot right now.

the game is actually very balanced more so than I think it has ever been.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]