Urgent! Nerf at Roll Dogde! Balancing between Stamina and Magicka characters in PVP

Dihaki

An interesting point to change in this game is the efficiency of Roll Dogde.

There is no point in buffing skills or nerfing skills if Roll Dogde is not nerfed.

What we must prioritize in the game is the balance between the character Stamina and Magicka, nowadays we know that Stamina is superior to Magicka for the simple fact of having more Stamina which gives him the possibility to dodge more skills before a character Magicka.

You see, a Magicka character, as a rule, already has less Stamina than a Stamina character, so the Stamina character will be much more likely to use Roll Dogde or Break Free!

And there's no point in saying that the Magicka character is doing more damage while we have Dizzing doing more damage than many abilities from many classes, and that without commenting on the absurd damage of Dawnbreaker!

A combat balancing proposition (PVP) is to increase the base cost of the Roll Dodge.

The main point for the balance of the characters Stamina and Magicka is in Roll Dogde, for that we urgently need a change!

Please comment on suggestions on the topic to balance this game.

Att.

Dihaki, The Magejic

Daffen

Magicka players are ranged, sometimes i am able to kill my opponents before they are able to come close. Also stop hating on dizzy swing, theres lots of counters. To mention some: block, literally run through them, roll dodge, stun or cast defenses when you know will get stunned. Increasing base cost for roll dodge will only hurt magicka players more since we also roll dodge when we need to. And if you die to dizzy swing dawnbreaker combo then you didnt have your defenses up unless if you fought a stamnecro cuz blastbones are overtuned.

The balance between magicka and stamina is allready created, stamina need mag sustain to be able to cast magicka skills resulting in slightly less damage, example is stamsorc needing to run orzorga or eternal vigor to sustain dark deal and streak. And magicka need stamina to roll dodge and break free. I never play magicka unless if i either have 15k+ stamina with 6-800 recovery or 10k with 500 recovery or less.

Astrid

>Roll dodge is too harsh on mag characters.
>Increase the cost of roll dodge
>?????

Bergzorn

Stamina benefits from a 15% cost reduction to their skills (base values, as compared to what would be considered balanced without this argument). ZOS' reasoning behind this is that stamina players have to use their main stat pool also for rolls, blocking, and break free. In practice, in PvP, this supposed disatvantage is more like an advantage.

The cost reduction was decreased from 20% to 15% a few years ago. IMO, it should be removed completely. Stamina players could still go for crazy weapon damage, but at a higher opportunity cost.

If you go for roll dodge directly, its gonna be like

Astrid wrote: »

>Roll dodge is too harsh on mag characters.
>Increase the cost of roll dodge
>?????

ccfeeling

Do it in pvp, just dont touch pve, ty

Firstmep

Bergzorn wrote: »

Stamina benefits from a 15% cost reduction to their skills (base values, as compared to what would be considered balanced without this argument). ZOS' reasoning behind this is that stamina players have to use their main stat pool also for rolls, blocking, and break free. In practice, in PvP, this supposed disatvantage is more like an advantage.

The cost reduction was decreased from 20% to 15% a few years ago. IMO, it should be removed completely. Stamina players could still go for crazy weapon damage, but at a higher opportunity cost.

If you go for roll dodge directly, its gonna be like

Astrid wrote: »

>Roll dodge is too harsh on mag characters.
>Increase the cost of roll dodge
>?????

But its true tho, stamina users do have to use their main stat for block, dodge ,break free.

Tommy_The_Gun

* Quitelty whispers: *

Psst. Hey. You. Yes, you... don't tell it anyone... Use AOE... when someone is roll-dodging too much. Trust me, you will get nice salty massages from them... problem solved ! Now I have to go. You have not seen me...

Fawn4287

If anything magica builds running sword and board, 15k stam, 81 points in to block CP, 3-4 pieces of sturdy are the most broken right now. Block mitigation is so insanely overpowered and requires 0 skill to hold 1 button to block 80% of incoming damage whilst burst healing yourself. Combine with mist form which for some reason still allows health regen and stam regen whilst in, these builds can permanently turtle 1v1 and simply block your entire combo and cycle stat use to block 75%+ of incoming damage

thegreatme

Doesn't the roll dodge mechanic use stamina stack-scaling to how many times you dodge (dodge fatigue)? Meaning the cost increases the more times you do it? I'm pretty sure this is part of the mechanic but someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

As it stands though, I don't think roll dodge gives Stam users as much of an advantage as you think it does considering dodging, blocking, breaking free, and sprinting all pull from our main resource pool.

If you're specifically talking about PvP, then yeah roll dodge really doesn't do much to save you and it certainly isn't beneficial to being able to hit you back if we're dodging, blocking, breaking free from stuns, sprinting, etc etc etc. whereas magicka users can dodge, block, break free, or sprint towards/away from you then slam you with their full magicka bar.

Also keep in mind not every stam build uses two-handed and dizzy swing so you're asking for an across-the-board nerf because of one weapon style instead of an advantage of all stamina builds. Duel-wield, Sword&Board, and Bow still exist.

Also PvE is a thing too. There's no way to balance it only for PvP while not making PvE players suffer for it.

luen79rwb17_ESO

Make it a % of total stamina pool with an inversed reduce cost ratio based on total stamina pool.

Something like 30% + X% ratio for higher stamina pools and 30 - Y% for lower stamina pools

vOILA!

Bergzorn

Firstmep wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

Stamina benefits from a 15% cost reduction to their skills (base values, as compared to what would be considered balanced without this argument). ZOS' reasoning behind this is that stamina players have to use their main stat pool also for rolls, blocking, and break free. In practice, in PvP, this supposed disatvantage is more like an advantage.

The cost reduction was decreased from 20% to 15% a few years ago. IMO, it should be removed completely. Stamina players could still go for crazy weapon damage, but at a higher opportunity cost.

If you go for roll dodge directly, its gonna be like

Astrid wrote: »

>Roll dodge is too harsh on mag characters.
>Increase the cost of roll dodge
>?????

But its true tho, stamina users do have to use their main stat for block, dodge ,break free.

The difference is, magica has to build for some stamina (10k-15k in no CP) and stamina regeneration, or they will die from not being able to break the second or third CC in a fight.

Stamina can build for more magica and regeneration if they want to use a broader range of class skills, but they have options to go "full stamina".

I'm not saying neglecting magica on stamina toons is the best way to build, but IMO, the generic 15% cost reduction for stamina skills is not balanced.

Lughlongarm

Magicka toon player -

Having your main resource support your utility skills is not always an advantage. There is a reason why most players don't bother with the ice staff blocking passive.

Real reason that stamina toons roll-dodge more is the medium armor passive. With with the upcoming patch, impen is getting a nerf, well-fitted is getting a buff. Magicka toons can defiantly have more roll-dodge potential. Because the reduction bonus is multiplicative, medium armor will benefit less from well-fitted.

Dracane

I always found that the stacking cost of roll dodge is not severe enough. The base cost could be reduced to make the first 1-3 dodges moderate and encourarging, but heavily punishing afterwards.

Otherwise; maybe refrain from buffing Well-Fitted? It is too strong as it is on live and will be even better with this Update.

Fawn4287

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Magicka toon player -

Having your main resource support your utility skills is not always an advantage. There is a reason why most players don't bother with the ice staff blocking passive.

Real reason that stamina toons roll-dodge more is the medium armor passive. With with the upcoming patch, impen is getting a nerf, well-fitted is getting a buff. Magicka toons can defiantly have more roll-dodge potential. Because the reduction bonus is multiplicative, medium armor will benefit less from well-fitted.

This^

The sheer number of magica builds (pretty much everything other than a magblade at this point) that use a sword and board and have a ridiculous amount of block cost reduction is like never before this patch. If you want to nerf roll dodge when block is already the far superior option, you will literally do nothing but encourage more DOT using sword and board camping stam users. Roll dodge is an essential part of everyones playstyleK other than maybe a pure tank, is what you want more people building straight tank defensive options instead of mobility?

Ragnaroek93

From all the things you can complain about you choose dodgeroll xD

Mayrael

Increasing base cost of dodge roll will hurt Magicka more than stamina it's bad, you know some Magicka players also use roll dodge...

That 15% cost reduction though is complete nonsense, it should be removed long ago.

kalunte

aoe goes through dodgeroll, dot goes through dodgeroll, magicka users have shield, magicka users have their main ressource to restore while they are blocking, magicka users dont have to choose between healing or trying to avoid some dmg with the same ressource pool, magicka and stamina are supposed to be different, not equal considering all facts, they have other tools.

[snip]

[edited for bashing]

RobZha

I actually weaken my mag characters max magicka now to add some points into stam because it's so needed in pvp. Definitely wouldn't like to see roll dodge cost increased.

setayco

I can agree to OP to an extent.
Stamina Characters gets a base increase to all weapon damage by 15% increasing damage output and heals effectively.
Magicka lost almost ALL multipliers to max and are only found in skill lines and the slotting of abilities from mage guild magicka resulting in lower damage output across the board due to losing a slot for something more important that offers more than a DoT, predictable BLOCK-ABLE ultimate, delayed trap CC(which is really fun to use but is not viable for forced burst combinations) and a buggy stealth reveal.
The magicka sets offer lower damage because of the lack of %modifiers to damage.
The PvP is still balanced by a percentage modifier of 50% reduced damage, reduced SHIELDS and healing (recently saw a nerf) the main defensive option (light armor) SHIELD is effectively worse than shuffle. Needing CP points to increase effectiveness, max magicka only (not benefiting from total spell power) and is now able to be crit. With the cost being High and can be destroyed in 1 GCD. The only class who can effectively benefit from the damage shield is a Sorcerer, which can stack 2 shields effectively. Yes although shuffle does not get buffed by any CP or any damage or resource multipliers it adds a base 25% mitigation from AoE damage. And either gives major expedition or snare removal. Shields offer no extra mitigation outside of extra HP(basically). There is also a direct counter to shields in form of CP to do extra damage to a person wearing them. Making light armor users effectively more squishy when fighting an appropriated player. If there is so many counters to shield play with shields being gutted how are Magicka players even able to compete to the ability they have? By sticking together, watch positioning and thinking prematurely about the decisions they make. Stamina is more reactive in a sense where they can do multiple actions in a chain to avoid death a little better. Vigor and roll dodge. And may do this a little better than magicka toons. Magicka toons have stronger burst heal options generally. But will have to spam to avoid death. As magicka players have less stamina to roll dodge and avoid executes or want to avoid blocking alot to prevent a cc when they are to low stamina to break it. They are left with little options to recover and when caught without the secondary resource and way more punishable than a stamina character that has less magicka. With magicka toons having to worry about mitigation in light armor paired with stronger heals to counter burst when healing has been nerfed with an almost useless shield which needs max magicka and CP to make viable. The disparity in balance becomes much more apparent in surviving PvP content.

setayco

Also, MAGICKA CHARACTERS DO NOT HAVE A UNIVERSAL EXECUTE MAKING ALL MAGICKA CHARACTERS EFFECTIVELY WORSE IN PVP Stamina characters posses two very strong executes with one scaling higher in %damage making magicka players shields and burst heals less impactful. And the undodgeable execute that will punish the 2-4 roll dodges a magicka character MAY choose to use in the recovery state. More disparity to take note of.

Onefrkncrzypope

Roll dodge is currently not on the pts and thus should be moved to combat thread. Please don't clog the pts with ideas. This is for testing what they have done. Thank you.

setayco

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Roll dodge is currently not on the pts and thus should be moved to combat thread. Please don't clog the pts with ideas. This is for testing what they have done. Thank you.

Roll dodge is in every form of the game including pts. A public test server which purpose is to test proposed changes. With little to no communication from ZoS or the community representatives on other threads. There are ideas that are posted here with a purpose to be added to the test server to be tested. An idea is also a form of opinion and feedback which are welcomed in these threads for open discussion and can and will be moderated by the company at their leisure. May you please refrain from trying to silence your fellow players and provide feedback of your own. Or quietly flag the post. By posting that comment you brought the clogging idea post to the top of the pts thread. Thank you!

xI_The_Owl_Ix

Yes lets nerf the only good defensive option stamina Nightblades have...

Such a stupid argument. Some classes like NBs rely on dodge rolls a lot because they cant just block and outheal like other classes, this whole argument shouldnt exist and is not thought through.

Most of the classes have undodgable skills or DoTs which helps with pressuring people once they start roll dodging.

Magicka:
Templars - Jabs
Necro - Blastbones
DK - DoTs
Warden - Shalks
Sorc - Curse

The only class which really struggles against roll dodging is ironically the NB itself. Even then the toolkit should be changed accordingly and dodge shouldnt be nerfed...

Spartabunny08

big no here. There are Magick alternatives for this problem use them.

setayco

Spartabunny08 wrote: »

big no here. There are Magick alternatives for this problem use them.

Which are nerfed by 50%. The only armor skill effected by CP and Battlespirit.

Ratzkifal

Magicka character do not use up their stamina for anything other than dodgerolling and breaking free while stamina character need to use up their stamina just to deal damage...
Idk. Sounds balanced to me.

Onefrkncrzypope

setayco wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Roll dodge is currently not on the pts and thus should be moved to combat thread. Please don't clog the pts with ideas. This is for testing what they have done. Thank you.

Roll dodge is in every form of the game including pts. A public test server which purpose is to test proposed changes. With little to no communication from ZoS or the community representatives on other threads. There are ideas that are posted here with a purpose to be added to the test server to be tested. An idea is also a form of opinion and feedback which are welcomed in these threads for open discussion and can and will be moderated by the company at their leisure. May you please refrain from trying to silence your fellow players and provide feedback of your own. Or quietly flag the post. By posting that comment you brought the clogging idea post to the top of the pts thread. Thank you!

I said move it to the correct section not to silence the discussion. Appreciate the gaslighting. The pts is for feedback on proposed changes like you said. There is no changes that dictate anything to do with roll dodge. The devs have the ability to visit the combat and mechanics section and do regularly, this is feedback for changes on the pts for the next patch. Things that are being changed right now not ideas for future patches. I don't care if I bump the thread because I was just asking to move the discussion. I don't want it flagged because the discussion would also be lost. So yeah just move to where it supposed to be.

Spartabunny08

setayco wrote: »

Spartabunny08 wrote: »

big no here. There are Magick alternatives for this problem use them.

Which are nerfed by 50%. The only armor skill effected by CP and Battlespirit.

Mist form not affected by that

Solariken

Stop playing CP PvP. Roll spamming is not a problem in noCP.

Increasing the cost of roll is a very bad idea - it hurts Magicka specs just as much or more than stamina specs.

BigBragg

Nerfing roll dodge again is not urgent. Nor does it need to happen at all. Magicka and Stamina play differently, each having strengths and weaknesses, and that is a good thing. Embrace them. Stop asking for more crippling design homoginazation. Please.

p.s. This topic should be moved to the combat section of the forums.

Dihaki

A slightly better suggestion, reduce the dodge time after the Dogde Roll to 1 second.