Why did Zenimax make fixed skilltrees?

Wilddog73 · July 2020

I liked it better when I could pick and choose skills in skyrim.

BigBragg · July 2020

ESO actually started development prior to Skyrim. Also they use them as tools to reward certain aspects of the game. Want the goodies? Then you need to participate in the content.

Kiralyn2000 · July 2020

Because it's an MMO based on Elder Scrolls, not an Elder Scrolls game that happens to have lots of players?

(also, trying to balance MMO content for a collection of defined classes is bad enough. Trying to design & balance it for a totally freeform min/max/powergaming mess? That would be awful.)

MasterSpatula · July 2020

This ain't Skyrim. Personally, I preferred having classes as in earlier games to how they did it in Skyrim, but Skyrim also isn't Morrowind.

Wilddog73 · July 2020

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Because it's an MMO based on Elder Scrolls, not an Elder Scrolls game that happens to have lots of players?

(also, trying to balance MMO content for a collection of defined classes is bad enough. Trying to design & balance it for a totally freeform min/max/powergaming mess? That would be awful.)

Was it harder for Ultima Online?

BRCOURTN · July 2020

Wilddog73 wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Because it's an MMO based on Elder Scrolls, not an Elder Scrolls game that happens to have lots of players?

(also, trying to balance MMO content for a collection of defined classes is bad enough. Trying to design & balance it for a totally freeform min/max/powergaming mess? That would be awful.)

Was it harder for Ultima Online?

I dont think its a stretch to say this game and Ultima Online are completely different games, and we shouldn't really be comparing their styles in gameplay or progression.

Wilddog73 · July 2020

Skyrim isn't and it's about the same.

Wilddog73 · July 2020

I mean, it uses said system.

karekiz · July 2020

Wilddog73 wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Because it's an MMO based on Elder Scrolls, not an Elder Scrolls game that happens to have lots of players?

(also, trying to balance MMO content for a collection of defined classes is bad enough. Trying to design & balance it for a totally freeform min/max/powergaming mess? That would be awful.)

Was it harder for Ultima Online?

Well I can compare it to TSW which is 100% like that.

Guess what? Every build was an ele force build.

Wilddog73 · July 2020

TSW?

Vevvev · July 2020

The Secret World

BRCOURTN · July 2020

Wilddog73 wrote: »

Skyrim isn't and it's about the same.

??? How is skyrim remotely the same as this game? MMOs are different than single player games in so many aspects.

Anyways, I'm glad they made a class system in this game. Its fun and I like making new characters. I think 'to each their own' applies here.

Wilddog73 · July 2020

The secret world was already terrible though.

Besides, skyrim isn't known for players only making certain builds. Neither was Ultima online.

Faulgor · July 2020

Yeah, me too. IMO classes have added nothing but grief to this game lol. The only benefit to classes would be if they offered very distinct gameplay styles, but over the years they made them more and more the same to account for "balance". A more free system at least wouldn't brick whole characters with each patch.

They had a good concept with the skill bar as a limiting factor, but didn't follow through with passives and such.

karekiz · July 2020

.

Wilddog73 wrote: »

The secret world was already terrible though.

Besides, skyrim isn't known for players only making certain builds. Neither was Ultima online.

You think Zenimax would be any better at balance?

Lol

Ryuvain · July 2020

I do miss finding spells on your own. Getting something cool out of RNG and immediately testing it out. Feels like that part of adventuring is missing.

newtinmpls · July 2020

I would like all skill lines available to all characters.

kargen27 · July 2020

newtinmpls wrote: »

I would like all skill lines available to all characters.

I would rather have choices matter. My first character was a disaster because I made poor choices. Took a while to get him kinda straightened out but was still fun. He mostly does all my crafting now but I still let him run amok from time to time. My 2nd character is still a mess and one I'm not sure I can fix. Third character though is doing great.

Those characters along with my 21 other characters across two accounts would be bland if all skill lines were available to each and every one of them.

wild_kmacdb16_ESO · July 2020

Access to every classes skills would be a bit much.

I think something like a 'subclass' system might be ok though.EX; you can choose a second class that gives you access to all of its abilities except its Ultimates, however you can only have 1 of this classes abilities slotted on your bar at any time.

Wilddog73 · July 2020

wild_kmacdb16_ESO wrote: »

Access to every classes skills would be a bit much.

I think something like a 'subclass' system might be ok though.EX; you can choose a second class that gives you access to all of its abilities except its Ultimates, however you can only have 1 of this classes abilities slotted on your bar at any time.

Or having to pick and choose wisely with a points system.

idk · July 2020

Wilddog73 wrote: »

I liked it better when I could pick and choose skills in skyrim.

MMORPGs work differently than single-player games, they must.

Bradyfjord · July 2020

Wilddog73 wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Because it's an MMO based on Elder Scrolls, not an Elder Scrolls game that happens to have lots of players?

(also, trying to balance MMO content for a collection of defined classes is bad enough. Trying to design & balance it for a totally freeform min/max/powergaming mess? That would be awful.)

Was it harder for Ultima Online?

Ultima, though ahead of its time, had very few skills in total. The complexity of that game came from the players' interactions, both friendly and rivalry. The systems were, compared to today, quite simple.

Wilddog73 · July 2020

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Wilddog73 wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Because it's an MMO based on Elder Scrolls, not an Elder Scrolls game that happens to have lots of players?

(also, trying to balance MMO content for a collection of defined classes is bad enough. Trying to design & balance it for a totally freeform min/max/powergaming mess? That would be awful.)

Was it harder for Ultima Online?

Ultima, though ahead of its time, had very few skills in total. The complexity of that game came from the players' interactions, both friendly and rivalry. The systems were, compared to today, quite simple.

Hmm, how about Runescape then?

BlueRaven · July 2020

idk wrote: »

Wilddog73 wrote: »

I liked it better when I could pick and choose skills in skyrim.

MMORPGs work differently than single-player games, they must.

That feels like a bit of a cop out reply. Just because it is a mmo, does not mean classes or limited abilities are required.

Fallout 76 is a mmo and is classless. Yet players can make healing, tanking, and dps type builds. Plus they have a variety of ways each can be done.

In ESO they tried to make all classes do all things, and tried to make race choices multi functional as well. But they consistently fail at it.

If they had a system more like Skyrim’s they would not be in this mess.

BlueRaven · July 2020

BigBragg wrote: »

ESO actually started development prior to Skyrim. Also they use them as tools to reward certain aspects of the game. Want the goodies? Then you need to participate in the content.

Earlier development is not the issue as they were probably working on the game client. There was a three year gap between Skyrim and ESO. Plenty of time to make the game feel more like Skyrim.

Not to mention Skyrim did not just appear out of thin air. I know they are different studios but there must have been some communication between the two teams as they worked on their games. I find it hard to believe the zos team could not get an early alpha of Skyrim and then do a riff off of that.

If they could not then that would imply lots of “interesting” issues about eso’s development.

Wilddog73 · July 2020

... How come TES don't do what runescape does? Multiple levels for different skill trees. Like levelling one eventually lets you do telekinesis and lets you steal money from banks.

Another level determines what kind of armor you can use. Whereas in skyrim, all exp goes into one bar and all skills are accessible through that.

Wilddog73 · July 2020

Could make that a mod.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO · July 2020

I won't defend a "classless" option in an MMO -- it would indeed make balancing a nightmare and make everyone who is chasing the meta run the exact same build. I just want to make it clear that neither Morrowind nor Oblivion had "hard" classes. They showed you some recommendations in the character setup, but they could all be completely ignored in favor of your own selection of skill lines and perks. Playing the "meta" in those games to get the most out of your character was all about breaking free of those molds and designing your own "class". Skyrim just made this the default.

Spearpoint · July 2020

Wilddog73 wrote: »

... How come TES don't do what runescape does? Multiple levels for different skill trees. Like levelling one eventually lets you do telekinesis and lets you steal money from banks.

Another level determines what kind of armor you can use. Whereas in skyrim, all exp goes into one bar and all skills are accessible through that.

Oh man, I would honestly love to go for 99 Woodcutting again! The skill system in RuneScape is still my favorite.

Spearpoint · July 2020

Spearpoint wrote: »

Wilddog73 wrote: »

... How come TES don't do what runescape does? Multiple levels for different skill trees. Like levelling one eventually lets you do telekinesis and lets you steal money from banks.

Another level determines what kind of armor you can use. Whereas in skyrim, all exp goes into one bar and all skills are accessible through that.

Oh man, I would honestly love to go for 99 Woodcutting again! The skill system in RuneScape is still my favorite.

The crafting bag with unlimited space would get a whoole new fanbase

Wilddog73 · July 2020

Spearpoint wrote: »

Spearpoint wrote: »

Wilddog73 wrote: »

... How come TES don't do what runescape does? Multiple levels for different skill trees. Like levelling one eventually lets you do telekinesis and lets you steal money from banks.

Another level determines what kind of armor you can use. Whereas in skyrim, all exp goes into one bar and all skills are accessible through that.

Oh man, I would honestly love to go for 99 Woodcutting again! The skill system in RuneScape is still my favorite.

The crafting bag with unlimited space would get a whoole new fanbase

If we could just make the activities funner than they are in runescape for a first/third person perspective!