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Why did Zenimax make fixed skilltrees?
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amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
That feels like a bit of a cop out reply. Just because it is a mmo, does not mean classes or limited abilities are required.
Fallout 76 is a mmo and is classless. Yet players can make healing, tanking, and dps type builds. Plus they have a variety of ways each can be done.
In ESO they tried to make all classes do all things, and tried to make race choices multi functional as well. But they consistently fail at it.
If they had a system more like Skyrim’s they would not be in this mess.
76 is also the buggiest piece of crap game ever released in history so I wouldn't be using it as an example for anything good or sensible. Its not an MMO either, it is simply multiplayer.. hell its hardly even an rpg lol.
Name another MMO that does freedom of choice and RP aspects better than ESO and don't name some 20 year old game that no one plays anymore.
Truth is, those "20 year old games" count. Because they show what MMO's were capable of being before WOW came out and basically turned the genre into a completely formulaic, cookie cutter fest devoid of any design creativity.
Fallout 76's bugs have nothing to do with the statement at hand, which is that it is a classless system. The classless system has nothing to do with any of the problems with the game. The character design system is one of the things that works well.
Star Wars Galaxies to me is the perfect example of the classless MMO. You'll dismiss it because it's a "20 year old MMO", but they nailed the classless system to a T, and it was a very successful MMO until it decided to change everything about itself to try to imitate WOW and then was eventually replaced by The Old Republic.
ESO does a lot of things well, but a freedom of choice is not one of them. If you don't lock yourself into one of the meta builds from the build guides, well... good luck every being allowed in anything beyond base game dungeons and trials.2 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭"Moving away from the stamina/magicka divide and having all skills available to everyone provides a greater variety of options for players to choose from."
No what it does is make it so choices do not matter. When you start a character you have a multitude of choices. Those choices dictate what future choices will be available to you. That is character development and needs to be left in the game. Getting rid of stamina and magicka only serves to take away choices that have meaning. Doesn't add choices at all.
The only choices we have in game now is, are we rolling with Alkosh / Galenwe / Thurvokin as a tank, or False Gods / Mother's Sorrow / Zaan for mag dps.
Not much choice.0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The skills are so much more interesting in ESO than spells in TES single player games.0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »"Moving away from the stamina/magicka divide and having all skills available to everyone provides a greater variety of options for players to choose from."
No what it does is make it so choices do not matter. When you start a character you have a multitude of choices. Those choices dictate what future choices will be available to you. That is character development and needs to be left in the game. Getting rid of stamina and magicka only serves to take away choices that have meaning. Doesn't add choices at all.
The only choices we have in game now is, are we rolling with Alkosh / Galenwe / Thurvokin as a tank, or False Gods / Mother's Sorrow / Zaan for mag dps.
Not much choice.
Not sure why you feel the need to be boxed into those sets? Unless you are shooting for leader boards there is no need to follow the latest flavor of the day. The changes suggested wouldn't make best builds go away. It would only streamline switching characters to the new latest and greatest. It would actually remove choices for the vast majority of players.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."2 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »"Moving away from the stamina/magicka divide and having all skills available to everyone provides a greater variety of options for players to choose from."
No what it does is make it so choices do not matter. When you start a character you have a multitude of choices. Those choices dictate what future choices will be available to you. That is character development and needs to be left in the game. Getting rid of stamina and magicka only serves to take away choices that have meaning. Doesn't add choices at all.
The only choices we have in game now is, are we rolling with Alkosh / Galenwe / Thurvokin as a tank, or False Gods / Mother's Sorrow / Zaan for mag dps.
Not much choice.
Not sure why you feel the need to be boxed into those sets? Unless you are shooting for leader boards there is no need to follow the latest flavor of the day. The changes suggested wouldn't make best builds go away. It would only streamline switching characters to the new latest and greatest. It would actually remove choices for the vast majority of players.
Why do I feel boxed into these sets? Because the game and community boxes you into those sets. If I show up to tank a trial without those sets, I'm probably gonna get booted, even if it's not a score run. At best, I'm probably gonna get a lot of criticism from my group for not running those sets, even if I can be tanking effectively. I've been called "not a real tank" plenty of times because I don't run Alkosh or Galenwe, or of course the standard "selfish tank", even if my tanking job is done well and we clear the trial in a smooth run.
At worst, the game itself mandates that you run those sets. At best, the community runs under the impression that they are necessary, and mandate it themselves.2 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »"Moving away from the stamina/magicka divide and having all skills available to everyone provides a greater variety of options for players to choose from."
No what it does is make it so choices do not matter. When you start a character you have a multitude of choices. Those choices dictate what future choices will be available to you. That is character development and needs to be left in the game. Getting rid of stamina and magicka only serves to take away choices that have meaning. Doesn't add choices at all.
The only choices we have in game now is, are we rolling with Alkosh / Galenwe / Thurvokin as a tank, or False Gods / Mother's Sorrow / Zaan for mag dps.
Not much choice.
Not sure why you feel the need to be boxed into those sets? Unless you are shooting for leader boards there is no need to follow the latest flavor of the day. The changes suggested wouldn't make best builds go away. It would only streamline switching characters to the new latest and greatest. It would actually remove choices for the vast majority of players.
Why do I feel boxed into these sets? Because the game and community boxes you into those sets. If I show up to tank a trial without those sets, I'm probably gonna get booted, even if it's not a score run. At best, I'm probably gonna get a lot of criticism from my group for not running those sets, even if I can be tanking effectively. I've been called "not a real tank" plenty of times because I don't run Alkosh or Galenwe, or of course the standard "selfish tank", even if my tanking job is done well and we clear the trial in a smooth run.
At worst, the game itself mandates that you run those sets. At best, the community runs under the impression that they are necessary, and mandate it themselves.
I've never been kicked from a group because I wasn't running particular gear. I have been asked if I had it available. I play all three roles and for PuGs it has never been a problem for me. I was a member of a guild that started requiring certain gear and certain skills on the bar to participate in vet trials. I had the gear they wanted but don't like being dictated to so I found a different guild. Takes longer to finish content sometimes and we might even fail to finish some but the groups are a lot more fun than the old guild where everything was set in stone before you could participate.
Again the idea of getting rid of stamina and magicka would do nothing to fix the problem of favored sets and skills. It would only mean fewer choices when developing your character and those fewer choices would have no later consequences in character development. No matter the system used players will find the best set-up and other players will follow. You don't have to follow though and there are plenty of players in the game that will not care.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."0 -
Zardayne✭✭✭✭✭Bradyfjord wrote: »Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Because it's an MMO based on Elder Scrolls, not an Elder Scrolls game that happens to have lots of players?
(also, trying to balance MMO content for a collection of defined classes is bad enough. Trying to design & balance it for a totally freeform min/max/powergaming mess? That would be awful.)
Was it harder for Ultima Online?
Ultima, though ahead of its time, had very few skills in total. The complexity of that game came from the players' interactions, both friendly and rivalry. The systems were, compared to today, quite simple.
Hmm, how about Runescape then?
or Asheron's Call0 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
"Change the game to an entirely different form/structure" isn't really a rational option. Of course people would oppose that. If you were proposing ideas for "ESO 2", that could be built into the game from the start, that would be a different story.Edited by Kiralyn2000 on July 24, 2020 2:21AM2 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »"Moving away from the stamina/magicka divide and having all skills available to everyone provides a greater variety of options for players to choose from."
No what it does is make it so choices do not matter. When you start a character you have a multitude of choices. Those choices dictate what future choices will be available to you. That is character development and needs to be left in the game. Getting rid of stamina and magicka only serves to take away choices that have meaning. Doesn't add choices at all.
The only choices we have in game now is, are we rolling with Alkosh / Galenwe / Thurvokin as a tank, or False Gods / Mother's Sorrow / Zaan for mag dps.
Not much choice.
Not sure why you feel the need to be boxed into those sets? Unless you are shooting for leader boards there is no need to follow the latest flavor of the day. The changes suggested wouldn't make best builds go away. It would only streamline switching characters to the new latest and greatest. It would actually remove choices for the vast majority of players.
Why do I feel boxed into these sets? Because the game and community boxes you into those sets. If I show up to tank a trial without those sets, I'm probably gonna get booted, even if it's not a score run. At best, I'm probably gonna get a lot of criticism from my group for not running those sets, even if I can be tanking effectively. I've been called "not a real tank" plenty of times because I don't run Alkosh or Galenwe, or of course the standard "selfish tank", even if my tanking job is done well and we clear the trial in a smooth run.
At worst, the game itself mandates that you run those sets. At best, the community runs under the impression that they are necessary, and mandate it themselves.
I've never been kicked from a group because I wasn't running particular gear. I have been asked if I had it available. I play all three roles and for PuGs it has never been a problem for me. I was a member of a guild that started requiring certain gear and certain skills on the bar to participate in vet trials. I had the gear they wanted but don't like being dictated to so I found a different guild. Takes longer to finish content sometimes and we might even fail to finish some but the groups are a lot more fun than the old guild where everything was set in stone before you could participate.
Again the idea of getting rid of stamina and magicka would do nothing to fix the problem of favored sets and skills. It would only mean fewer choices when developing your character and those fewer choices would have no later consequences in character development. No matter the system used players will find the best set-up and other players will follow. You don't have to follow though and there are plenty of players in the game that will not care.
I am glad that you have never been kicked from a group for your gear choices. I have had a number of negative experiences from the community in this game due to my gear setups, from group problems, to just things said to me in the community. I too hate being dictated to how to play my own game and my own character, and I refuse to run skills or sets because someone else told me to. In fact, the quickest way to ensure I will never run something is to tell me I *need* to run it. To this day there are specific sets and monster sets that I have never run simply because I was told that was the only proper way to play my character, and I couldn't succeed without them.
I am in a guild currently that has 0 skill or gear requirements. We have done gear runs to get some of the "meta" sets to have on hand just in case, but we have 0 requirements, including for vet trials. I have 0 desire for speed runs or leaderboards and am okay with wipes, or runs taking a little longer, so I have intentionally stayed away from trial guilds that look for that sort of thing, and will never join a guild like that.
But that doesn't change the fact that I have received, and still do receive, plenty of negativity from the community, both in group and out, for my choice of sets and not running a full fledged "meta" build.
The reason why I want magicka and stamina changed is not so much because it will fully eliminate meta builds (nothing ever will), but because the current setup of damage scaling off your resource rather than your resource being how frequently you can use abilities, and damage coming from armor, is completely backwards and makes absolutely no sense.
Armor should not dictate damage output, as armor is defensive apparel (I'm not even talking about sets, but rather the fact that wearing light or medium armor directly increase particular damage types), and your resource pool should not dictate your damage output beyond how frequently you can actually cast.
Those changes alone would allow for more diversity in builds, as you could have heavy armored casters, or light armored melee damage dealers, or even more allowing for melee weapon using magicka users, and allowing for the build diversity that Elder Scrolls is known for, rather than arbitrarily limiting everyone to the very narrow "1 hand + shield & heavy armored tank, robed caster with a staff, and 2h / dw / bow medium armor damage dealer" boxes. Despite having 6 classes all capable of playing 3 different roles, making for what *should* be 18 different "class" types, we are limited to 4 - less than the amount of classes you can actually pick from - because in the end, regardless of your class, you all boil down to the same "tank / mag dps / stam dps / healer" builds that are all running the same sets and using abilities that all do the same effects and boosting your gear with all the same traits and enchantments and all distributing attributes in all the same way.
My #1 reason for playing MMO's and RPG's is to have an opportunity to personalize my own characters. The more personalization options I have, the more I am attracted to the game. Hence why I am attracted to TES titles.
I know there is a different set of expectations for MMO's due to the formula that WOW has now dictated is the foundation of MMO's (even tho MMO's have succeeded outside of that formula), but ESO falls very short of offering the personalization I'd expect from an Elder Scrolls title. You mention that there would be no build variety with a change to the system, but there is no build variety now. Everything is literally the same thing. It doesn't matter if I'm a necro tank, a Warden tank, a DK tank, *all* tanks are doing the *exact* same thing. The only difference is the picture of the icon on your skill bar for the abilities that are all doing the same thing. You can look up Alcast, Dottz, Nefas, Xynode, or any other build guides you want, and they are all the same thing. You can get recommendations from anyone in the community and get the same advice. There is 0 variety in the builds in this game, at least for trials and dungeons.
The gatekeeping from the community that mandate particular sets and builds to even participate in end game content are a detriment to the enjoyment of anyone that wants to play a different way. You say that you've never been kicked from a group, but then talk about the guild you were in that had gear and bar and rotation requirements, so even you are furthering my point. Again, I'm glad that you have never been kicked from a group, but lots definitely have, and I have had many negative encounters with members of the community of this game because I choose not to play "meta", even *when* I am successful playing that way.1 -
![[Deleted User]](https://us.v-cdn.net/5020507/uploads/06301530861bfae62d56b72eef4ac33d.png)
[Deleted User]Soul ShrivenHello everyone,
Recently we've had to remove a few posts for a bit off-topic content. For further posts be sure to stay on-topic to avoid thread derailment.
Thank you for understanding!0 -
Bakkagami✭✭✭Spearpoint wrote: »... How come TES don't do what runescape does? Multiple levels for different skill trees. Like levelling one eventually lets you do telekinesis and lets you steal money from banks.
Another level determines what kind of armor you can use. Whereas in skyrim, all exp goes into one bar and all skills are accessible through that.
Oh man, I would honestly love to go for 99 Woodcutting again! The skill system in RuneScape is still my favorite.
is it really that different? still have to use the weapon / skill line to level it in eso as in runescape. I guess you could make it so equipping weapon tiers are tied to that skill line but even then it'll just be the same gameplay - use it to level it until its actually viable.0 -
Azuramoonstar✭✭✭✭
This is not entirely correct, Oblivion had the select correct skills to level up and do so in an planned manner or you nerfed yourself. Same in Morrowind but Morrowind had more skills unlimited training and end game was easy outside the expansions.Azuramoonstar wrote: »I liked it better when I could pick and choose skills in skyrim.
The elder scrolls existed prior to skyrim, and to be frank skyrim's set up is weaker the previous iterations. It limited your play as ANYTHING leveled you up so you had to make sure you had the weapon, armor, spells you wanted or you ended up out leveling your other skills and making the world harder due to enemy scaling.
In every other elder scrolls you picked a class, or created one by picking skills. You could level them well up, but only chosen skills leveled you.
MMo work a bit differently, but of the mmo i played ESO is pretty free form.
But yes the older games had an on paper better system but Oblivion with 3 skills for an attribute showed the system weakness.
And as you say MMO works differently, none of the old games was anything near balanced, spell crafting in old games and crafting in Skyrim was off the table. With illusion you could make an control creature who made goblin warlords permanent hostile to the goblin faction
Popcorn time. Or one shooting mammoths in Skyrim.
Morrowind fortify intelligence potions
i played morrowind and oblivion to death, (mostly morrowind as i hated the forced story of oblivion) but never felt nerfed in any of my classes. I largely built my classes from the ground up. Also morrowind endgame was as easy as you wanted to make it. I only played tes on console so no mods, till skyrim.Long time mmo player: 2004-[current year]
Long time Elder scrolls player: Xbox launch morrowind.
Follower of the dawn and dusk, keeper of the moon and star.0 -
vilio11✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »"Moving away from the stamina/magicka divide and having all skills available to everyone provides a greater variety of options for players to choose from."
No what it does is make it so choices do not matter. When you start a character you have a multitude of choices. Those choices dictate what future choices will be available to you. That is character development and needs to be left in the game. Getting rid of stamina and magicka only serves to take away choices that have meaning. Doesn't add choices at all.
The only choices we have in game now is, are we rolling with Alkosh / Galenwe / Thurvokin as a tank, or False Gods / Mother's Sorrow / Zaan for mag dps.
Not much choice.
Not sure why you feel the need to be boxed into those sets? Unless you are shooting for leader boards there is no need to follow the latest flavor of the day. The changes suggested wouldn't make best builds go away. It would only streamline switching characters to the new latest and greatest. It would actually remove choices for the vast majority of players.
Cuz you know in Skyrim you do not have best builds and boxed builds?0 -
Eifleber✭✭✭✭✭Doesn t every MMO have a fixed skilltree?
I think solo games have way different requirements than compettve MMOs
If you could pick anything there would only 1 best build that every competitive player would use.❆
Playing since dec 2019 | PC EU0
