Pls Zos, give all classes a buff major sorcery/brutality
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BaiterOfZergs✭✭✭✭✭Infectious1X wrote: »@BaiterOfZergs Just have to say that I agree 100% with about everything you’ve said so far. Using the logical side of your brain goes a long way.
Ironically, people claim all having access to something “homogenizes” the game, yet some of these very buffs are absolutely REQUIRED to be even remotely competitive (especially in PvP), which ends up doing the exact opposite of “diversifying” the game when a certain class only has 1 or 2 poor, or weaker alternatives to access said buff.
Edit: It’s also not like the classes are perfectly and cleverly balanced either. Class A gets built in sorcery/brutality AND resolve, whereas Class B is forced to use subpar skills or pots to have access to something that should realistically be standardized because of how important they are. Class B doesn’t even necessarily have advantages over Class A in other areas to make up for it unless those areas force them to play in an otherwise pigeonholed playstyle, which HOMOGENIZES the class.
Usually, if say a class has access to stronger survivability or sustain options, they’re usually weaker in another important area, such as damage. So in this case, Class A would have class access to resolve, but needs a poor alternative to build in sorcery. Class B has easy access to resolve and sorcery, but suffers with recovery. This creates a bit of diversity between the classes, but it also pigeonholes some classes just to stay relevant. The whole “play how you want” philosophy makes it extremely tricky to balance properly and this ends up with some classes having access to everything essential because of ZOS’ poor balancing, while others get the short end of the stick. Necros and NBs entire existence in the same game is one great example of this. One has strong damage, incredible damage mitigation, great sustain, powerful healing... the other has mediocre damage, awful healing, good sustain, a decent bit of damage mitigation on an otherwise extraordinarily squishy class... you get the picture.
Think the issue is some are confusing homogenization with standardization. While they are similar they aren’t exactly the same thing. Major brutality/sorcery is standard, therefore giving all classes the buff would be standardization.
In my opinion I think this buff and major resolve should either be attached to class passives for free or you automatically receive the buffs on your character sheet similar to other “buffs”. Many people wouldn’t like that but it would actually give the devs a chance to replace the effect with something else that would make the class or skill unique.
If the argument is “Classes should be unique” then that will address the issue. One class having a buff that another class will get by default isn’t unique. Although if zos decides to revisit certain skills then there’s opportunity for actual class and skill diversity.
Making it standard or slapping it on a skill is a win either way. One adds build diversity and the other allows for unique buffs.Edited by BaiterOfZergs on July 16, 2020 4:39PMZerg of House Smallscale, First of his name, wielder of Volendrung, battleground hero, Cyrodiil butcher, the swifft footed, OG of the Templars and first pvpers, defender of scrolls and baiter of zergs.0 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »Kittytravel wrote: »Kittytravel wrote: »https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535104/every-class-should-have-a-in-house-major-sorcery-and-brutality-buff
Already been a thread like this, short answer is no there is no reason every class should have the same washed out buff. And as someone else said potions are really easy to get and DKs already hand your group the buff.
I am considering in terms of solo pvp. and I want to use other potions
What other potion could you want instead that has benefits not accessible through skills or armor sets?... If you are using the logic of "solo PvP" then your thread title should be "Pls Zos, give all classes access to every buff." because they all fall into that category of other classes have buffs not accessible to anyone else.
Immovability, tri restoration, vitality heroism just to name a few.
Also there's plenty of class diversity, giving all classes access to sorcery and brutality would only increase choices.
Not everyone wants to run a 2hander on stamina for example.
You can get brutality from dual wield. I assume you want to run the only combo without it which is s/b and bow. In which case you now have major fracture and minor maim in your kit, which not all classes have access to either. It's called balance.
In order to give every class major brut you then need to rebalance all the class buffs... not every one has major crit, not every one has major mending, or major prot, or major fracture. Or minor buffs.
Balance. Part of what makes this game beautiful is the process of making a functional and well balanced build with all the gear, class, and skill options available. Potions are a big part of that. Start giving every class all the same buffs and you may as well just remove them all.
Your argument leaves out that fracture can be applied by NB, DK, and warden for you. It also leaves out that a DK could literally just hand you major brut/sorc, and your build is otherwise unchanged but now with those buffs you claim might make it unbalanced. And, of course, this "unbalance" comes from a group, which is totally the drection we want in pvp right?
TL;DR
If the game would be unbalanced with all those buffs and debuffs, it's already unbalanced because you can get them by grouping.
Your logic isnt there. Obviously you have all the buffs in a group setting... but you need multiple classes to get them. That's kind of my point.0 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »Kittytravel wrote: »Kittytravel wrote: »https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535104/every-class-should-have-a-in-house-major-sorcery-and-brutality-buff
Already been a thread like this, short answer is no there is no reason every class should have the same washed out buff. And as someone else said potions are really easy to get and DKs already hand your group the buff.
I am considering in terms of solo pvp. and I want to use other potions
What other potion could you want instead that has benefits not accessible through skills or armor sets?... If you are using the logic of "solo PvP" then your thread title should be "Pls Zos, give all classes access to every buff." because they all fall into that category of other classes have buffs not accessible to anyone else.
Immovability, tri restoration, vitality heroism just to name a few.
Also there's plenty of class diversity, giving all classes access to sorcery and brutality would only increase choices.
Not everyone wants to run a 2hander on stamina for example.
You can get brutality from dual wield. I assume you want to run the only combo without it which is s/b and bow. In which case you now have major fracture and minor maim in your kit, which not all classes have access to either. It's called balance.
In order to give every class major brut you then need to rebalance all the class buffs... not every one has major crit, not every one has major mending, or major prot, or major fracture. Or minor buffs.
Balance. Part of what makes this game beautiful is the process of making a functional and well balanced build with all the gear, class, and skill options available. Potions are a big part of that. Start giving every class all the same buffs and you may as well just remove them all.
Your argument leaves out that fracture can be applied by NB, DK, and warden for you. It also leaves out that a DK could literally just hand you major brut/sorc, and your build is otherwise unchanged but now with those buffs you claim might make it unbalanced. And, of course, this "unbalance" comes from a group, which is totally the drection we want in pvp right?
TL;DR
If the game would be unbalanced with all those buffs and debuffs, it's already unbalanced because you can get them by grouping.
Your logic isnt there. Obviously you have all the buffs in a group setting... but you need multiple classes to get them. That's kind of my point.
Your argument was that having access to all these buffs would imbalance things. You can have access to all these buffs.
As for needing multiple classes to get them, that's also not true. Some classes can do it all on their own (something you noted by saying that only certain weapon combos didn't give the buffs).
Example; a stam DK using sword and shield has access to major brutality (molten weapons), major savagery (inferno and morphs), fracture (puncture), and maim (low slash, if you don't want to count choking talons).
Any other class can just use potions to get them.
Having access to the general buffs (weapon damage) will not unbalance the game, nor will the six sources kill diversity.0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »Kittytravel wrote: »Kittytravel wrote: »https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535104/every-class-should-have-a-in-house-major-sorcery-and-brutality-buff
Already been a thread like this, short answer is no there is no reason every class should have the same washed out buff. And as someone else said potions are really easy to get and DKs already hand your group the buff.
I am considering in terms of solo pvp. and I want to use other potions
What other potion could you want instead that has benefits not accessible through skills or armor sets?... If you are using the logic of "solo PvP" then your thread title should be "Pls Zos, give all classes access to every buff." because they all fall into that category of other classes have buffs not accessible to anyone else.
Immovability, tri restoration, vitality heroism just to name a few.
Also there's plenty of class diversity, giving all classes access to sorcery and brutality would only increase choices.
Not everyone wants to run a 2hander on stamina for example.
You can get brutality from dual wield. I assume you want to run the only combo without it which is s/b and bow. In which case you now have major fracture and minor maim in your kit, which not all classes have access to either. It's called balance.
In order to give every class major brut you then need to rebalance all the class buffs... not every one has major crit, not every one has major mending, or major prot, or major fracture. Or minor buffs.
Balance. Part of what makes this game beautiful is the process of making a functional and well balanced build with all the gear, class, and skill options available. Potions are a big part of that. Start giving every class all the same buffs and you may as well just remove them all.
Your argument leaves out that fracture can be applied by NB, DK, and warden for you. It also leaves out that a DK could literally just hand you major brut/sorc, and your build is otherwise unchanged but now with those buffs you claim might make it unbalanced. And, of course, this "unbalance" comes from a group, which is totally the drection we want in pvp right?
TL;DR
If the game would be unbalanced with all those buffs and debuffs, it's already unbalanced because you can get them by grouping.
Your logic isnt there. Obviously you have all the buffs in a group setting... but you need multiple classes to get them. That's kind of my point.
Your argument was that having access to all these buffs would imbalance things. You can have access to all these buffs.
As for needing multiple classes to get them, that's also not true. Some classes can do it all on their own (something you noted by saying that only certain weapon combos didn't give the buffs).
Example; a stam DK using sword and shield has access to major brutality (molten weapons), major savagery (inferno and morphs), fracture (puncture), and maim (low slash, if you don't want to count choking talons).
Any other class can just use potions to get them.
Having access to the general buffs (weapon damage) will not unbalance the game, nor will the six sources kill diversity.
Major brut and sorc is the most basic damage buff in the game, pretty much everyone uses it, one way or another.
The dual wield skill flying blade is so terrible its not even funny, how many nbs do you see running around with power extraction as their source of brutality?
Yes giving everyone access to these 2 buffs would increase variety, and as for balance, lol.0 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »Kittytravel wrote: »Kittytravel wrote: »https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535104/every-class-should-have-a-in-house-major-sorcery-and-brutality-buff
Already been a thread like this, short answer is no there is no reason every class should have the same washed out buff. And as someone else said potions are really easy to get and DKs already hand your group the buff.
I am considering in terms of solo pvp. and I want to use other potions
What other potion could you want instead that has benefits not accessible through skills or armor sets?... If you are using the logic of "solo PvP" then your thread title should be "Pls Zos, give all classes access to every buff." because they all fall into that category of other classes have buffs not accessible to anyone else.
Immovability, tri restoration, vitality heroism just to name a few.
Also there's plenty of class diversity, giving all classes access to sorcery and brutality would only increase choices.
Not everyone wants to run a 2hander on stamina for example.
You can get brutality from dual wield. I assume you want to run the only combo without it which is s/b and bow. In which case you now have major fracture and minor maim in your kit, which not all classes have access to either. It's called balance.
In order to give every class major brut you then need to rebalance all the class buffs... not every one has major crit, not every one has major mending, or major prot, or major fracture. Or minor buffs.
Balance. Part of what makes this game beautiful is the process of making a functional and well balanced build with all the gear, class, and skill options available. Potions are a big part of that. Start giving every class all the same buffs and you may as well just remove them all.
Your argument leaves out that fracture can be applied by NB, DK, and warden for you. It also leaves out that a DK could literally just hand you major brut/sorc, and your build is otherwise unchanged but now with those buffs you claim might make it unbalanced. And, of course, this "unbalance" comes from a group, which is totally the drection we want in pvp right?
TL;DR
If the game would be unbalanced with all those buffs and debuffs, it's already unbalanced because you can get them by grouping.
Your logic isnt there. Obviously you have all the buffs in a group setting... but you need multiple classes to get them. That's kind of my point.
Your argument was that having access to all these buffs would imbalance things. You can have access to all these buffs.
As for needing multiple classes to get them, that's also not true. Some classes can do it all on their own (something you noted by saying that only certain weapon combos didn't give the buffs).
Example; a stam DK using sword and shield has access to major brutality (molten weapons), major savagery (inferno and morphs), fracture (puncture), and maim (low slash, if you don't want to count choking talons).
Any other class can just use potions to get them.
Having access to the general buffs (weapon damage) will not unbalance the game, nor will the six sources kill diversity.
Nope. My argument was that having all the buffs available on any one class would be imbalanced, especially in a solo setting.
Let's say you give every class major damage. Cool. But guess what? Players like you will march right back to the forums and start asking for every class to have major crit buffs. Then it will be major mending etc. Until every class is the exact same, no strengths or weaknesses.
As you admitted already. It's easy to get all the buffs you need already, so I guess my question is why start down this slope of homogenization if it's not a problem in the first place? Just let different classes be different.
I would even be in support of removing major resolve from some classes. You can get it from potions, wardens, a monster set, a 5 piece set, and several non class skills.1 -
JayKwellen✭✭✭✭✭@Stx Despite what my own previous post said, Im actually in agreement with you that the major buffs shouldn't just automatically be available and baked in to every class. As you said, it's easy to get them from other sources.
My main point of contention is simply that that isn't always true, namely in PvP. In PvP their are numerous situations where someone wouldn't be able to get them. Not because they're unavailable (either degeneration or pots in my case), but because even though they're available you still can't use them.
I'm admittedly biased because I play a magblade, but for me I don't have in class access to major sorcery. I also don't have bar space for phantasmal escape or RAT (this part is more unique to me though, many nightblades use it). I have to use both immovable and sorcery pots, but this means that inevitably one of them is going unused. Do I go without snare removal, or without sorcery? Do I have to use tri pots and go without both? You get the idea.
I don't say this to make the point that "every class should have it", I'm simply highlighting the fact that some classes are so poorly designed that they're unable to create a fully functional build that includes it. Of course the solution to this wouldn't be simply making it free to everyone, it would require an intelligent redesign of various classes which, given ZOS's history, isn't likely to ever happen.0 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »Kittytravel wrote: »Kittytravel wrote: »https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535104/every-class-should-have-a-in-house-major-sorcery-and-brutality-buff
Already been a thread like this, short answer is no there is no reason every class should have the same washed out buff. And as someone else said potions are really easy to get and DKs already hand your group the buff.
I am considering in terms of solo pvp. and I want to use other potions
What other potion could you want instead that has benefits not accessible through skills or armor sets?... If you are using the logic of "solo PvP" then your thread title should be "Pls Zos, give all classes access to every buff." because they all fall into that category of other classes have buffs not accessible to anyone else.
Immovability, tri restoration, vitality heroism just to name a few.
Also there's plenty of class diversity, giving all classes access to sorcery and brutality would only increase choices.
Not everyone wants to run a 2hander on stamina for example.
You can get brutality from dual wield. I assume you want to run the only combo without it which is s/b and bow. In which case you now have major fracture and minor maim in your kit, which not all classes have access to either. It's called balance.
In order to give every class major brut you then need to rebalance all the class buffs... not every one has major crit, not every one has major mending, or major prot, or major fracture. Or minor buffs.
Balance. Part of what makes this game beautiful is the process of making a functional and well balanced build with all the gear, class, and skill options available. Potions are a big part of that. Start giving every class all the same buffs and you may as well just remove them all.
Your argument leaves out that fracture can be applied by NB, DK, and warden for you. It also leaves out that a DK could literally just hand you major brut/sorc, and your build is otherwise unchanged but now with those buffs you claim might make it unbalanced. And, of course, this "unbalance" comes from a group, which is totally the drection we want in pvp right?
TL;DR
If the game would be unbalanced with all those buffs and debuffs, it's already unbalanced because you can get them by grouping.
Your logic isnt there. Obviously you have all the buffs in a group setting... but you need multiple classes to get them. That's kind of my point.
Your argument was that having access to all these buffs would imbalance things. You can have access to all these buffs.
As for needing multiple classes to get them, that's also not true. Some classes can do it all on their own (something you noted by saying that only certain weapon combos didn't give the buffs).
Example; a stam DK using sword and shield has access to major brutality (molten weapons), major savagery (inferno and morphs), fracture (puncture), and maim (low slash, if you don't want to count choking talons).
Any other class can just use potions to get them.
Having access to the general buffs (weapon damage) will not unbalance the game, nor will the six sources kill diversity.
Nope. My argument was that having all the buffs available on any one class would be imbalanced, especially in a solo setting.
Let's say you give every class major damage. Cool. But guess what? Players like you will march right back to the forums and start asking for every class to have major crit buffs. Then it will be major mending etc. Until every class is the exact same, no strengths or weaknesses.
As you admitted already. It's easy to get all the buffs you need already, so I guess my question is why start down this slope of homogenization if it's not a problem in the first place? Just let different classes be different.
I would even be in support of removing major resolve from some classes. You can get it from potions, wardens, a monster set, a 5 piece set, and several non class skills.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, because I literally displayed above that DKs have all the buffs you mentioned (including crit and mending) as a solo kit, and that makes me wonder if you read my whole response.
Or the one before it where I sarcastically noted that all 4 current class sources of major brutality felt and behaved very differently, providing uniqueness and flavor.
Have all great day o/Edited by DocFrost72 on July 18, 2020 1:33PM0 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »Kittytravel wrote: »Kittytravel wrote: »https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535104/every-class-should-have-a-in-house-major-sorcery-and-brutality-buff
Already been a thread like this, short answer is no there is no reason every class should have the same washed out buff. And as someone else said potions are really easy to get and DKs already hand your group the buff.
I am considering in terms of solo pvp. and I want to use other potions
What other potion could you want instead that has benefits not accessible through skills or armor sets?... If you are using the logic of "solo PvP" then your thread title should be "Pls Zos, give all classes access to every buff." because they all fall into that category of other classes have buffs not accessible to anyone else.
Immovability, tri restoration, vitality heroism just to name a few.
Also there's plenty of class diversity, giving all classes access to sorcery and brutality would only increase choices.
Not everyone wants to run a 2hander on stamina for example.
You can get brutality from dual wield. I assume you want to run the only combo without it which is s/b and bow. In which case you now have major fracture and minor maim in your kit, which not all classes have access to either. It's called balance.
In order to give every class major brut you then need to rebalance all the class buffs... not every one has major crit, not every one has major mending, or major prot, or major fracture. Or minor buffs.
Balance. Part of what makes this game beautiful is the process of making a functional and well balanced build with all the gear, class, and skill options available. Potions are a big part of that. Start giving every class all the same buffs and you may as well just remove them all.
Your argument leaves out that fracture can be applied by NB, DK, and warden for you. It also leaves out that a DK could literally just hand you major brut/sorc, and your build is otherwise unchanged but now with those buffs you claim might make it unbalanced. And, of course, this "unbalance" comes from a group, which is totally the drection we want in pvp right?
TL;DR
If the game would be unbalanced with all those buffs and debuffs, it's already unbalanced because you can get them by grouping.
Your logic isnt there. Obviously you have all the buffs in a group setting... but you need multiple classes to get them. That's kind of my point.
Your argument was that having access to all these buffs would imbalance things. You can have access to all these buffs.
As for needing multiple classes to get them, that's also not true. Some classes can do it all on their own (something you noted by saying that only certain weapon combos didn't give the buffs).
Example; a stam DK using sword and shield has access to major brutality (molten weapons), major savagery (inferno and morphs), fracture (puncture), and maim (low slash, if you don't want to count choking talons).
Any other class can just use potions to get them.
Having access to the general buffs (weapon damage) will not unbalance the game, nor will the six sources kill diversity.
Nope. My argument was that having all the buffs available on any one class would be imbalanced, especially in a solo setting.
Let's say you give every class major damage. Cool. But guess what? Players like you will march right back to the forums and start asking for every class to have major crit buffs. Then it will be major mending etc. Until every class is the exact same, no strengths or weaknesses.
As you admitted already. It's easy to get all the buffs you need already, so I guess my question is why start down this slope of homogenization if it's not a problem in the first place? Just let different classes be different.
I would even be in support of removing major resolve from some classes. You can get it from potions, wardens, a monster set, a 5 piece set, and several non class skills.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, because I literally displayed above that DKs have all the buffs you mentioned (including crit and mending) as a solo kit, and that makes me wonder if you read my whole response.
Or the one before it where I sarcastically noted that all 4 current class sources of major brutality felt and behaved very differently, providing uniqueness and flavor.
Have all great day o/
Dks dont have major prot, major maim, major vulnerability, major vitality, or some of more important minor buffs like protection, vuln, or mending.
I agree with you that all the classes that do have major damage have different styles of applying it. You have a valid point there. I'm just of the mentality that I like when different classes have different buffs.0