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Pls Zos, give all classes a buff major sorcery/brutality

Foto1
Foto1
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Sorc +
Warden +
Nb garbage
Dk need a little buff
Templar -
Necro -
PC/EU CP 1200+
Artaxerks stamina dk khajiit
Wayna Qhapaq magicka dk argonian
Rorekur stamina sorc orc
Maria de Medici magicka sorc breton
Cordeilla stamina warden wood elf
Quienn Gwendolen magicka warden high elf
Nefertari stamina necro khajiit
Boadicea Icenian magicka templar dark elf
Clarice de Medici healer nb breton
  • Firstmep
    Firstmep
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    Pretty much yes, ever since entropy nerf I'm basically forced to run spell power pots on most mag classes.
    Also would love to divorce my stamplar from 2 hander for once.
  • Drdeath20
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    Its really not necessary. Potions are soo easily accessible plus dks give that to your group.
  • Kittytravel
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    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535104/every-class-should-have-a-in-house-major-sorcery-and-brutality-buff

    Already been a thread like this, short answer is no there is no reason every class should have the same washed out buff. And as someone else said potions are really easy to get and DKs already hand your group the buff.
  • Foto1
    Foto1
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    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535104/every-class-should-have-a-in-house-major-sorcery-and-brutality-buff

    Already been a thread like this, short answer is no there is no reason every class should have the same washed out buff. And as someone else said potions are really easy to get and DKs already hand your group the buff.

    I am considering in terms of solo pvp. and I want to use other potions
    PC/EU CP 1200+
    Artaxerks stamina dk khajiit
    Wayna Qhapaq magicka dk argonian
    Rorekur stamina sorc orc
    Maria de Medici magicka sorc breton
    Cordeilla stamina warden wood elf
    Quienn Gwendolen magicka warden high elf
    Nefertari stamina necro khajiit
    Boadicea Icenian magicka templar dark elf
    Clarice de Medici healer nb breton
  • GrumpyDuckling
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    I'd like to see the game give us permanent buffs tied to the role we choose to fulfill. It's a rough outline, but something like this:

    Damage = Major Brutality/Sorcery + Major Savagery/Prophecy
    Tank = Major Resolve + Major Vitality
    Healer = Major Mending + Major Savagery/Prophecy

    Then we could get on with having classes offer unique skills that do cool things and provide identity/flavor outside of buffs.
  • Kittytravel
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    Foto1 wrote: »
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535104/every-class-should-have-a-in-house-major-sorcery-and-brutality-buff

    Already been a thread like this, short answer is no there is no reason every class should have the same washed out buff. And as someone else said potions are really easy to get and DKs already hand your group the buff.

    I am considering in terms of solo pvp. and I want to use other potions

    What other potion could you want instead that has benefits not accessible through skills or armor sets?... If you are using the logic of "solo PvP" then your thread title should be "Pls Zos, give all classes access to every buff." because they all fall into that category of other classes have buffs not accessible to anyone else.
  • Stx
    Stx
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    Please Zos, give every class every buff so every class will be the exact same and I wont have to think at all about how I build my character please.

    Thank you!
  • DocFrost72
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    Stx wrote: »
    Please Zos, give every class every buff so every class will be the exact same and I wont have to think at all about how I build my character please.

    Thank you!

    I was just about to say, all class sources are identical!

    I mean DK gives the group the effect, might give heavy attack damage. Sorcs heal themselves or othere with theirs. Nightblades don't have to stop dealing damage to get theirs and either get a heal or a weapon damage debuff on target. Wardens get sustain.

    See, completely identical! No room for class identity at ALL!!1!
  • Kwik1
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    Yeah lets just have 1 generic class with all abilities available...

    I swear every MMO I play has a similar thread wanting this same thing...

    That was sarcasm in case you missed it, I really prefer unique classes that each have different abilities.

    Hitting Q to drink a pot isn't really that hard
  • Dracane
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    While they are at it, they could also make the Templar's minor sorcery more available to other classes outside of a 4 seconds poison and the warden's minor berserk easier available as well.

    Auri-El is my lord,
    Trinimac is my shield,
    Magnus is my mind.
  • Drdeath20
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    Why would you waste a skill slot on something that is easily obtainable through a potion. The cost of potions have dropped tremendously. Even classes that have class access to this do not slot that skill most of the time.

    1 potion gives you instant magicka, magicka recovery, major sorcery and major prophecy. Wasting a skill slot on major sorcery means you are either wasting another skill slot for major prophecy, not using that buff or using a potion for it (if that is the case it does not help your premise)

    In reality its just a skill to help make gold. Less gold spent on spell power potions = profit and templars have a passive that equally helps them make gold in filling soul gems passive.
    Edited by Drdeath20 on July 12, 2020 5:06PM
  • Taleof2Cities
    Taleof2Cities
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    Foto1 wrote: »
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535104/every-class-should-have-a-in-house-major-sorcery-and-brutality-buff

    Already been a thread like this, short answer is no there is no reason every class should have the same washed out buff. And as someone else said potions are really easy to get and DKs already hand your group the buff.

    I am considering in terms of solo pvp. and I want to use other potions

    *** shrugs ***

    Class diversity exists for a reason.

    There are other ways to get major brutality/sorcery than through class skills or potions ... which I'm pretty sure you're conveniently not including in the discussion.
  • BaiterOfZergs
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    Drdeath20 wrote: »
    Its really not necessary. Potions are soo easily accessible plus dks give that to your group.

    All classes should have this buff, it’s not homogenization like a lot of you think because almost every player will use it regardless. If anything it’ll allow certain specs to be more diverse because they wouldn’t have to use specific weapons or specific pots. Also, people want to use other pots.

    I don’t know why people in this thread are acting disingenuous about a basic buff as if will somehow ruin the game.

    This buff hardly has anything to do with class diversity. Yeah it’s so diverse that the majority of the community considers it mandatory.
    Zerg of House Smallscale, First of his name, wielder of Volendrung, battleground hero, Cyrodiil butcher, the swifft footed, OG of the Templars and first pvpers, defender of scrolls and baiter of zergs.
  • Kadoin
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    But if that happens, do you know how out of control the spreadsheet will be!? Do you? Do you!?
  • Firstmep
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    Foto1 wrote: »
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535104/every-class-should-have-a-in-house-major-sorcery-and-brutality-buff

    Already been a thread like this, short answer is no there is no reason every class should have the same washed out buff. And as someone else said potions are really easy to get and DKs already hand your group the buff.

    I am considering in terms of solo pvp. and I want to use other potions

    What other potion could you want instead that has benefits not accessible through skills or armor sets?... If you are using the logic of "solo PvP" then your thread title should be "Pls Zos, give all classes access to every buff." because they all fall into that category of other classes have buffs not accessible to anyone else.

    Immovability, tri restoration, vitality heroism just to name a few.

    Also there's plenty of class diversity, giving all classes access to sorcery and brutality would only increase choices.
    Not everyone wants to run a 2hander on stamina for example.
    Edited by Firstmep on July 12, 2020 10:17PM
  • Sanguinor2
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    Already been a thread like this, short answer is no there is no reason every class should have the same washed out buff. And as someone else said potions are really easy to get and DKs already hand your group the buff.

    Sounds great. I really think we should expand that to more than just major sorcery/brutality tho.

    How about all classes that have access to major sorcery/brutality inclass loose major resolve and only classes without major sorcery/brutality get inclass major resolve? Afterall you can get it from Chudan, balance or an equal amount of resistances from armor potions and it really helps diversity. No reason not to right?

    We can even include sustain in that. Afterall any class has some way to restore magicka/stamina in their class toolkit. Booooooooooooooring, no diversity whatsoever, one can just use sustain sets right? I take volunteers that give up their class sustain in the name of diversity, raise your hands please and not too many at once!

    (Sarcasm in case anyone cant tell)
    Edited by Sanguinor2 on July 12, 2020 10:24PM
    Politeness is respecting others.
    Courage is doing what is fair.
    Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
    Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
    Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
    Honor is keeping ones word.
  • JayKwellen
    JayKwellen
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    Drdeath20 wrote: »
    Why would you waste a skill slot on something that is easily obtainable through a potion. The cost of potions have dropped tremendously. Even classes that have class access to this do not slot that skill most of the time.

    In PvE perhaps, but in PvP it does become an issue, particularly if you're playing solo or in a small group without a magdk running molten weapons.

    In Cyrodiil I most often play either solo or as a duo with my husband, who's either his stamcro or his StamDK. Neither of those is giving me a sorcery buff, nor am I getting it from my class. Yes I know sap essence is a thing, but it's usefulness is precious little outside of bombers and certain niche melee builds.

    I typically use spell power pots as a magblade, particularly now that the cyrodiil ones were buffed, but the second I end up in a fight bigger than a small handful of people, or if I'm fighting a snare spamming magdk or magden, I have to change to immovables. If I'm really outnumbered and getting beat on I might need to change to tri-pots. Pretty much as soon as I'm really pressured major sorcery and major prophecy are the first things to go, which really hurts my potential damage output, so having on demand access to it at all times is extremely important.

    Of course these days this conversation doesn't even matter. I used to be able to run degen to alleviate this issue, but now with the greymoor changes I can't do that either because I need that space for other more pressing abilities. Instead I've just had to learn to live without it. Luckily I play a magblade, so I'm already accustomed to doing crap damage lol

    Xbox NA - JaeKwellen
    AD PvP
    Trying to main a magcro. This is awful.
  • Drdeath20
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    Been argued about for years. Play however you want solo or small scale but dont expect the same results as those who coordinate and optimize to make this a non issue.

    I want to use/do this but i refuse to use/do that, is the way im understanding you.
  • Solariken
    Solariken
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    I'd like to see the game give us permanent buffs tied to the role we choose to fulfill. It's a rough outline, but something like this:

    Damage = Major Brutality/Sorcery + Major Savagery/Prophecy
    Tank = Major Resolve + Major Vitality
    Healer = Major Mending + Major Savagery/Prophecy

    Then we could get on with having classes offer unique skills that do cool things and provide identity/flavor outside of buffs.

    I love this
  • idk
    idk
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    Foto1 wrote: »
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535104/every-class-should-have-a-in-house-major-sorcery-and-brutality-buff

    Already been a thread like this, short answer is no there is no reason every class should have the same washed out buff. And as someone else said potions are really easy to get and DKs already hand your group the buff.

    I am considering in terms of solo pvp. and I want to use other potions

    *** shrugs ***

    Class diversity exists for a reason.

    There are other ways to get major brutality/sorcery than through class skills or potions ... which I'm pretty sure you're conveniently not including in the discussion.

    This very much. Homogenization is bad for the game and that is exactly what this thread is asking for. Zos made it so every class has access to both of the buffs and that is more that sufficient.
  • BaiterOfZergs
    BaiterOfZergs
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    idk wrote: »
    Foto1 wrote: »
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535104/every-class-should-have-a-in-house-major-sorcery-and-brutality-buff

    Already been a thread like this, short answer is no there is no reason every class should have the same washed out buff. And as someone else said potions are really easy to get and DKs already hand your group the buff.

    I am considering in terms of solo pvp. and I want to use other potions

    *** shrugs ***

    Class diversity exists for a reason.

    There are other ways to get major brutality/sorcery than through class skills or potions ... which I'm pretty sure you're conveniently not including in the discussion.

    This very much. Homogenization is bad for the game and that is exactly what this thread is asking for. Zos made it so every class has access to both of the buffs and that is more that sufficient.

    The lack of options lead to homogenization. Players running 2h because they don’t have another choice would be considered homogenization. Players running pots because there’s no other choice is homogenization. There’s literally no reason not to make it available to every class when every person uses it anyway. You could argue that the fact that it’s considered mandatory as a reason for homogenization.

    Homogenization would be more like if every class got the same buff the same way. But we know NB and Sorc way of getting similar buffs feels very different. The same way a buff like major resolve isn’t entirely the same on a dk as it is on a Templar.

    People argued against 2 handers being two pieces at one point for the same anti homogenization reason but look how that turned out. Homogenization isn’t having the same thing, it’s every thing functioning the same way and things being built the same way. Because if your definition is simply having the same buff then the game is filled with homogenization by default.
    Zerg of House Smallscale, First of his name, wielder of Volendrung, battleground hero, Cyrodiil butcher, the swifft footed, OG of the Templars and first pvpers, defender of scrolls and baiter of zergs.
  • Firstmep
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    idk wrote: »
    Foto1 wrote: »
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535104/every-class-should-have-a-in-house-major-sorcery-and-brutality-buff

    Already been a thread like this, short answer is no there is no reason every class should have the same washed out buff. And as someone else said potions are really easy to get and DKs already hand your group the buff.

    I am considering in terms of solo pvp. and I want to use other potions

    *** shrugs ***

    Class diversity exists for a reason.

    There are other ways to get major brutality/sorcery than through class skills or potions ... which I'm pretty sure you're conveniently not including in the discussion.

    This very much. Homogenization is bad for the game and that is exactly what this thread is asking for. Zos made it so every class has access to both of the buffs and that is more that sufficient.

    The lack of options lead to homogenization. Players running 2h because they don’t have another choice would be considered homogenization. Players running pots because there’s no other choice is homogenization. There’s literally no reason not to make it available to every class when every person uses it anyway. You could argue that the fact that it’s considered mandatory as a reason for homogenization.

    Homogenization would be more like if every class got the same buff the same way. But we know NB and Sorc way of getting similar buffs feels very different. The same way a buff like major resolve isn’t entirely the same on a dk as it is on a Templar.

    People argued against 2 handers being two pieces at one point for the same anti homogenization reason but look how that turned out. Homogenization isn’t having the same thing, it’s every thing functioning the same way and things being built the same way. Because if your definition is simply having the same buff then the game is filled with homogenization by default.

    Pretty much what I said, but much better worded!

    The same way everyone uses major resolve, everyone uses major sorc/brut buffs anyway, giving us more ways to get them would only increase diversity.
    It's not I'm not going to use brutality on my stamplar just beacuse he doesn't have it in the class toolkit.
  • BaiterOfZergs
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    Firstmep wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    Foto1 wrote: »
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535104/every-class-should-have-a-in-house-major-sorcery-and-brutality-buff

    Already been a thread like this, short answer is no there is no reason every class should have the same washed out buff. And as someone else said potions are really easy to get and DKs already hand your group the buff.

    I am considering in terms of solo pvp. and I want to use other potions

    *** shrugs ***

    Class diversity exists for a reason.

    There are other ways to get major brutality/sorcery than through class skills or potions ... which I'm pretty sure you're conveniently not including in the discussion.

    This very much. Homogenization is bad for the game and that is exactly what this thread is asking for. Zos made it so every class has access to both of the buffs and that is more that sufficient.

    The lack of options lead to homogenization. Players running 2h because they don’t have another choice would be considered homogenization. Players running pots because there’s no other choice is homogenization. There’s literally no reason not to make it available to every class when every person uses it anyway. You could argue that the fact that it’s considered mandatory as a reason for homogenization.

    Homogenization would be more like if every class got the same buff the same way. But we know NB and Sorc way of getting similar buffs feels very different. The same way a buff like major resolve isn’t entirely the same on a dk as it is on a Templar.

    People argued against 2 handers being two pieces at one point for the same anti homogenization reason but look how that turned out. Homogenization isn’t having the same thing, it’s every thing functioning the same way and things being built the same way. Because if your definition is simply having the same buff then the game is filled with homogenization by default.

    Pretty much what I said, but much better worded!

    The same way everyone uses major resolve, everyone uses major sorc/brut buffs anyway, giving us more ways to get them would only increase diversity.
    It's not I'm not going to use brutality on my stamplar just beacuse he doesn't have it in the class toolkit.

    Yup. More options is the exact opposite of homogenization. If a player has 3-4 different ways to achieve something that’s a good thing, pigeonholing is what leads to homogenization not adding more options.
    Zerg of House Smallscale, First of his name, wielder of Volendrung, battleground hero, Cyrodiil butcher, the swifft footed, OG of the Templars and first pvpers, defender of scrolls and baiter of zergs.
  • Hotdog_23
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    JayKwellen wrote: »
    Drdeath20 wrote: »
    Why would you waste a skill slot on something that is easily obtainable through a potion. The cost of potions have dropped tremendously. Even classes that have class access to this do not slot that skill most of the time.

    In PvE perhaps, but in PvP it does become an issue, particularly if you're playing solo or in a small group without a magdk running molten weapons.

    In Cyrodiil I most often play either solo or as a duo with my husband, who's either his stamcro or his StamDK. Neither of those is giving me a sorcery buff, nor am I getting it from my class. Yes I know sap essence is a thing, but it's usefulness is precious little outside of bombers and certain niche melee builds.

    I typically use spell power pots as a magblade, particularly now that the cyrodiil ones were buffed, but the second I end up in a fight bigger than a small handful of people, or if I'm fighting a snare spamming magdk or magden, I have to change to immovables. If I'm really outnumbered and getting beat on I might need to change to tri-pots. Pretty much as soon as I'm really pressured major sorcery and major prophecy are the first things to go, which really hurts my potential damage output, so having on demand access to it at all times is extremely important.

    Of course these days this conversation doesn't even matter. I used to be able to run degen to alleviate this issue, but now with the greymoor changes I can't do that either because I need that space for other more pressing abilities. Instead I've just had to learn to live without it. Luckily I play a magblade, so I'm already accustomed to doing crap damage lol

    For the record, I completely agree with you that all classes need access to major sorcery/brutality in their class kit.

    Good luck on getting a response on your well-thought and logical post form people. I have noticed when someone post a good counter argument people just ignore it because they cannot defend against it.

    Be safe and have fun :)
  • Stx
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    Firstmep wrote: »
    Foto1 wrote: »
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535104/every-class-should-have-a-in-house-major-sorcery-and-brutality-buff

    Already been a thread like this, short answer is no there is no reason every class should have the same washed out buff. And as someone else said potions are really easy to get and DKs already hand your group the buff.

    I am considering in terms of solo pvp. and I want to use other potions

    What other potion could you want instead that has benefits not accessible through skills or armor sets?... If you are using the logic of "solo PvP" then your thread title should be "Pls Zos, give all classes access to every buff." because they all fall into that category of other classes have buffs not accessible to anyone else.

    Immovability, tri restoration, vitality heroism just to name a few.

    Also there's plenty of class diversity, giving all classes access to sorcery and brutality would only increase choices.
    Not everyone wants to run a 2hander on stamina for example.

    You can get brutality from dual wield. I assume you want to run the only combo without it which is s/b and bow. In which case you now have major fracture and minor maim in your kit, which not all classes have access to either. It's called balance.

    In order to give every class major brut you then need to rebalance all the class buffs... not every one has major crit, not every one has major mending, or major prot, or major fracture. Or minor buffs.

    Balance. Part of what makes this game beautiful is the process of making a functional and well balanced build with all the gear, class, and skill options available. Potions are a big part of that. Start giving every class all the same buffs and you may as well just remove them all.
  • Infectious1X
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    @BaiterOfZergs Just have to say that I agree 100% with about everything you’ve said so far. Using the logical side of your brain goes a long way.

    Ironically, people claim all having access to something “homogenizes” the game, yet some of these very buffs are absolutely REQUIRED to be even remotely competitive (especially in PvP), which ends up doing the exact opposite of “diversifying” the game when a certain class only has 1 or 2 poor, or weaker alternatives to access said buff.

    Edit: It’s also not like the classes are perfectly and cleverly balanced either. Class A gets built in sorcery/brutality AND resolve, whereas Class B is forced to use subpar skills or pots to have access to something that should realistically be standardized because of how important they are. Class B doesn’t even necessarily have advantages over Class A in other areas to make up for it unless those areas force them to play in an otherwise pigeonholed playstyle, which HOMOGENIZES the class.

    Usually, if say a class has access to stronger survivability or sustain options, they’re usually weaker in another important area, such as damage. So in this case, Class A would have class access to resolve, but needs a poor alternative to build in sorcery. Class B has easy access to resolve and sorcery, but suffers with recovery. This creates a bit of diversity between the classes, but it also pigeonholes some classes just to stay relevant. The whole “play how you want” philosophy makes it extremely tricky to balance properly and this ends up with some classes having access to everything essential because of ZOS’ poor balancing, while others get the short end of the stick. Necros and NBs entire existence in the same game is one great example of this. One has strong damage, incredible damage mitigation, great sustain, powerful healing... the other has mediocre damage, awful healing, good sustain, a decent bit of damage mitigation on an otherwise extraordinarily squishy class... you get the picture.
    Edited by Infectious1X on July 16, 2020 7:22AM
  • Grianasteri
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    Why? Then there is literally no point in the buff, because everyone has it effortlessly.

    There needs to be trade offs and the weighing up of skills, pots, sets etc, to provide a build with the buffs you want/need.

    Also, where is the class diversity if every class just has different versions of the same effective skill?

    I am not saying the balance is right, Im saying the answer is not to just give every class the same skills.
  • Wolf81
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    Why? Then there is literally no point in the buff, because everyone has it effortlessly.

    There needs to be trade offs and the weighing up of skills, pots, sets etc, to provide a build with the buffs you want/need.

    Also, where is the class diversity if every class just has different versions of the same effective skill?

    I am not saying the balance is right, Im saying the answer is not to just give every class the same skills.

    I mean we kinda are there now...as it stands even from a meta standpoint if you are not finding a way to use these buffs you playing sub par. But I do understand what you mean by class diversity...but I don't find the option of being sub par any more diverse either.
  • Sanguinor2
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    Wolf81 wrote: »

    I mean we kinda are there now...as it stands even from a meta standpoint if you are not finding a way to use these buffs you playing sub par. But I do understand what you mean by class diversity...but I don't find the option of being sub par any more diverse either.

    It doesnt have to be a problem of diversity. Netch, crit surge and molten armaments are plenty diverse for example.
    Politeness is respecting others.
    Courage is doing what is fair.
    Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
    Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
    Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
    Honor is keeping ones word.
  • DocFrost72
    DocFrost72
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    Stx wrote: »
    Firstmep wrote: »
    Foto1 wrote: »
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535104/every-class-should-have-a-in-house-major-sorcery-and-brutality-buff

    Already been a thread like this, short answer is no there is no reason every class should have the same washed out buff. And as someone else said potions are really easy to get and DKs already hand your group the buff.

    I am considering in terms of solo pvp. and I want to use other potions

    What other potion could you want instead that has benefits not accessible through skills or armor sets?... If you are using the logic of "solo PvP" then your thread title should be "Pls Zos, give all classes access to every buff." because they all fall into that category of other classes have buffs not accessible to anyone else.

    Immovability, tri restoration, vitality heroism just to name a few.

    Also there's plenty of class diversity, giving all classes access to sorcery and brutality would only increase choices.
    Not everyone wants to run a 2hander on stamina for example.

    You can get brutality from dual wield. I assume you want to run the only combo without it which is s/b and bow. In which case you now have major fracture and minor maim in your kit, which not all classes have access to either. It's called balance.

    In order to give every class major brut you then need to rebalance all the class buffs... not every one has major crit, not every one has major mending, or major prot, or major fracture. Or minor buffs.

    Balance. Part of what makes this game beautiful is the process of making a functional and well balanced build with all the gear, class, and skill options available. Potions are a big part of that. Start giving every class all the same buffs and you may as well just remove them all.

    Your argument leaves out that fracture can be applied by NB, DK, and warden for you. It also leaves out that a DK could literally just hand you major brut/sorc, and your build is otherwise unchanged but now with those buffs you claim might make it unbalanced. And, of course, this "unbalance" comes from a group, which is totally the drection we want in pvp right?

    TL;DR

    If the game would be unbalanced with all those buffs and debuffs, it's already unbalanced because you can get them by grouping.
    Edited by DocFrost72 on July 16, 2020 12:09PM
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