virtus753 wrote: »

As Varanis said, if one person’s data does not show up at all, the big picture data is incomplete.

Here’s my question, though: does that give anyone in game the right to know what sets and skills anyone else is using, and to analyze and parse in-game behavior, without the knowledge of that person, simply by virtue of being (virtually) nearby?

Logs are not limited to members of groups, and not all groups or individuals advise when they are using logs. There is no way to know when someone is logging you unless that person says so. That is a problem to my mind. When groups are up front about using logs, and players have an informed choice about whether to be logged or not, that is one thing. Consenting to logs can be part and parcel of being a member of an organized group, just like requiring sets and CP and skills and such. I agree with that. But PUGs have no such larger justification for logging encounters, nor any random person nearby. To me, there is a big difference between an organized group that is open about requiring logs, provided they use that knowledge to benefit the group as a whole, and random players or groups logging other people without their knowledge. One individual’s desire to access another’s data does not — to my mind — entitle them to that access absent the informed consent of the other person. But the implementation of the logs system doesn’t discriminate here. It says that our data can be accessed by others without our informed knowledge or consent, group or no group.

Why is there not a check to consent to the logs? If a member of an organized group refuses when it has been made clear it is a requirement, then the group finds a replacement, just as if that person had failed to use required stime post a satisfactory CMX parse. A check would prevent the possibility of logs being made without consent without impairing organized groups from using the logs, which I know can be done in a beneficial way. I don’t want to take the tool away from those groups, but I have seen people call in vain for a more nuanced approach that would alleviate some of the concern.

The way the system has been implemented gives me the impression that informed player consent was not a concern in said implementation. I have a real problem with that, especially considering the lack of harm caused by seeking that consent. (I’m talking about being informed on each occasion, not the generic consent to the vague possibility of being logged buried in the terms of service.)

This is a different concern from OP’s, it seems, but it is one that remains and which ZOS has failed to address.

blackweb wrote: »

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

I was told by both trial guilds that I joined that if I wished to remain anonymous, I would not be allowed to run trials with them.

Why do you feel entitled to a raid group of you can’t/won’t meet their standards? Why should the game have to change because can’t/won’t change your gameplay?

The fact that you asked that question means that I cannot help you understand. We had parsers before esologs.com. We had parser addons but it was up to each individual player to install the addon and collect their own parse then share it manually with others.

How I play the game is none of your business unless I make it so. How I spec, gear or play ESO is not your concern.

I DO NOT CONSENT TO SHARE MY DATA TO YOU OR ANYONE ELSE THROUGH ANY THIRD PARTY.

bharathitman wrote: »

even without esologs people will eventually figure out your caliber

blackweb wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

This was a request when ESOLogs was first implemented. The answer given by the creator was that the data is all or nothing. If someone opts out, the data set just doesn't work.

This is, incidentally, not that different from using the Combat Metrics add-on. A trial group can require you to post your combat parse or gear and kick you if you don't comply. Gear and build requirements well pre-date ESO Logs. There's no requirement that any group let you raid with them if you don't meet their standards and, again, that was always true, well before ESO Logs.

The accommodation ZOS did make was to make us all anonymous by default. So while a trial guild might require you to deanonymize yourself for training purposes (which you can refuse and they can kick you for refusing if they desire), none of our data is being published attached to identifying info without our consent.

In short, while I certainly understand not liking the toxic environment that can prevail in some competitive end game PVE groups, ESO Logs didn't actually change what those groups could require of players in the first place. Where ESO Logs can be abused, it can be abused in the same manner as the allowed Combat Metrics. Indeed, toxic groups were toxic before ESO Logs. That's a guild problem, not a Logs problem.

Finally, folks can correct me if I'm wrong now, but I recall the overwhelming opinion of ESO Logs when it launched was that it was primarily used to gather helpful data for better guild runs and very rarely abused.

Edit: if anyone wants to go back and read ZOS' original intent and the posts of the ESO Logs developer Kihra, the official thread is linked below. Do note that much of the conversation is about how originally we were NOT anonymous by default, which ZOS thankfully reversed.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/467949/encounter-logging/p1

The ESO end-game pve environment has become so toxic that I am considering leaving the game until the opt out option is provided by ZOS. Obnoxious, condescending, toxic elitism has become the rule in ESO, not the exception.

I have been healing in ESO since the beginning. I am a very good healer. The environment has become so toxic that I never got to run a single trial or vet DLC with the two trial guilds I joined. They would not even invite me without an eso logs digital resume.

I DO NOT CONSENT TO ANY OF MY ESO IN-GAME DATA BEING RELEASED TO ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY REASON.

I resent not being given the opportunity to opt out of the release of my in game data to third parties.

FierceSam wrote: »

Two things

First, ZOS should clearly develop some way that enables their customers to opt out of data sharing. The mere fact that ZOS are so happy to hand over player data to a totally unregulated organisation (no matter how genuine or lovely or well-meaning the people behind it might be) suggests a level of contempt for its players that is morally reprehensible. If the third party in question can’t make their system work without requiring all players’ data and consent, they should seriously reconsider their position. Personal privacy (even of your game data, which is owned by ZOS) should be the number one consideration and should be respected.

Second, given there is no chance that this will happen, OP does have the option of forming their own guild and creating a regime where this kind of toxicity is not tolerated. I’m sure there would be many players who would like to join them. They may even find a way that takes advantage of the benefits of stats gathering systems, without creating the negative atmosphere they mention. Because ultimately it’s not combat metrics or data sharing that turns some players into rancid a-holes.. that’s something within the individual player.

Good luck and have fun

Jaimeh wrote: »

blackweb wrote: »

Darkenarlol wrote: »

is there other resons to hide or refuse to show your numbers beside

trying to sneak into a good group with high skill demand and have an easy ninja carry run?

just wondering

lrn2play troll posts like this one were inevitable in this discussion. This posts illustrates why the opt out is needed.

ESO is a game not a job. Joining a group in ESO should not require a digital resume.

This is where I disagree, OP.

1. The 'L2P'

When you join a group and you are not pulling your weight, the others do need to work harder to compensate. The 'learn2play' argument, as you put it, it's actually relevant here: you need to make an effort to learn, especially when it comes to vet content that requires a team effort.

2. 'Game is not a job'

End-game requires effort and time... to learn your role, and mechanics, to develop raid awareness, and group coordination... If that seems too much like a job, then it's not for you, there's plenty of other content.

3. 'Joining a group should not require a resume'

ESO logs is mostly used for vet content, and by organized groups; hardly anyone would run it for normal PUGs. Within this context, the most salient explanation for not wanting to have it, is to conceal performance. However, when you play in end-game as part of a group, the group needs to know information like this in order to improve. Groups wanted cmx parses, long before the advent of logs and for good reason: It takes time and effort to build a team and organize a raid, why wouldn't the raid lead want to know where the DDs stand, damage-wise? Especially when certain fights do have dps checks.

The only arguments against the logs in my view are: the fact that it's a third-party website, and that along with tremendous help to improving, it can cause toxicity etc. That has always been part of the end-game community sadly, and imo, the benefits of the logs far outweight the off-chance someone might use them to be rude.

Jaimeh wrote: »

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

blackweb wrote: »

Darkenarlol wrote: »

is there other resons to hide or refuse to show your numbers beside

trying to sneak into a good group with high skill demand and have an easy ninja carry run?

just wondering

lrn2play troll posts like this one were inevitable in this discussion. This posts illustrates why the opt out is needed.

ESO is a game not a job. Joining a group in ESO should not require a digital resume.

This is where I disagree, OP.

1. The 'L2P'

When you join a group and you are not pulling your weight, the others do need to work harder to compensate. The 'learn2play' argument, as you put it, it's actually relevant here: you need to make an effort to learn, especially when it comes to vet content that requires a team effort.

2. 'Game is not a job'

End-game requires effort and time... to learn your role, and mechanics, to develop raid awareness, and group coordination... If that seems too much like a job, then it's not for you, there's plenty of other content.

3. 'Joining a group should not require a resume'

ESO logs is mostly used for vet content, and by organized groups; hardly anyone would run it for normal PUGs. Within this context, the most salient explanation for not wanting to have it, is to conceal performance. However, when you play in end-game as part of a group, the group needs to know information like this in order to improve. Groups wanted cmx parses, long before the advent of logs and for good reason: It takes time and effort to build a team and organize a raid, why wouldn't the raid lead want to know where the DDs stand, damage-wise? Especially when certain fights do have dps checks.

The only arguments against the logs in my view are: the fact that it's a third-party website, and that along with tremendous help to improving, it can cause toxicity etc. That has always been part of the end-game community sadly, and imo, the benefits of the logs far outweight the off-chance someone might use them to be rude.

iam sorry to disagree l2p takes time and if peeps cant get into they will never learn mechanics, and l2p does not included skills or gear sets it just means understand how to move in the area, nothing more, this is a game nothing more, the more you take it as a job, the more pressure you feel, more pressure = mistakes, if you have a relaxed atmosphere, peeps find it easier. Eso logs are not needed and i dont use them, not using does not conceal performance, it can be clearly seen when doing content, having parses on a dummy is of no use it does not show the real time effect in a trail etc, dps checks are not always needed, if we take vmol for instance the dps check to only there to lose part of the final boss, the lunar phase, zos would have not added it, if they did not want you to do it, the dps check in mol is to bypasss that. the eso logs do cause probs when peeps use them and not all have ok'ed it, you may say or think that iam saying this because i have not done the content but i have all of it in pve and pvp, the best way for content is peeps understanding how each person moves in a trial, second guessing them, like a football player not being constantly check and in a roundabout way told you not good enough

Did you actually read my post? I'm basically saying the same thing

blackweb wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

blackweb wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

Darkenarlol wrote: »

is there other resons to hide or refuse to show your numbers beside

trying to sneak into a good group with high skill demand and have an easy ninja carry run?

just wondering

that's a horrible comment.
people do not deserve what is happening here in real life to them, simply cannot be compared to an ingame group that was annoyed because the person did not play nor gear the way they wanted.

What's happening in real life that's specifically a problem with ESO Logs?

Every ESO player is anonymous by default, so no identifying info is shared with ESO Logs without the player's consent.
Nor is the requirement that players build, gear up, or parse according to their guild's requirements exclusive to or caused by ESO Logs. No one is entitled to a raid spot, after all.

This is not true. As I understand it, if we are grouped with someone who has the esologs app and is collecting and uploading data, their data can be collected and uploaded without their consent.

I said: "Every ESO player is anonymous by default, so no identifying info is shared with ESO Logs without the player's consent."

Your combat data is not identifying info. Your sets and build are not identifying info that someone not in your group can track back to you. It may be on the site as part of someone else's log, but the site doesn't attribute it to you in anyway if you are anonymous.

Now, if you are part of a trial group who asks everyone to opt in and you remain anonymous, they'll know who's the odd man out. But that's true of refusing to post your Combat Metric parse, do a training dummy parse, or refusing to discuss your build with them as well. If that gets toxic, that's a problem with your guildmates, not an ESO Logs problem.

Of course it is identifying by default. If we are the only person in a group who wishes to remain anonymous, we are by definition singling ourselves out for ridicule and abuse. Most of us just want to play the game and have fun in whatever way we wish to play it, without millions of people looking over our shoulders. This is a violation of our privacy as eso players and it should end by ZOS giving us an opt out of all sharing of our data with third parties. We should not have to explain to obnoxious, toxic elitists why we are marked anonymous in a log when we did not consent to be logged.

I was told by both trial guilds that I joined that if I wished to remain anonymous, I would not be allowed to run trials with them. I never ran a trial or a dungeon with them. This would never have happened before esologs.com.