Opt out of Sharing Player Data With Third Parties

NocturnalSonata

What some people mistake for toxicity is a group striving for excellence. What some people mistake for striving to achieve excellence is toxicity. It is the attitude that creates a distinction.

Bottom line - logs change nothing. Any group seeking to develop and become more efficient will find ways to do just that, and if a member is unwilling to adjust to meet that, then that is on them. There are lots of guilds that cater to all levels, so you can always join one that suits.

As much as privacy is and should be a serious discussion in the digital age, your digital data within ESO is a fictitious creation that is owned by ZOS. There is an ethical line here that has deep implications, but such a conversation goes far beyond logs...

FierceSam

NocturnalSonata wrote: »

What some people mistake for toxicity is a group striving for excellence. What some people mistake for striving to achieve excellence is toxicity. It is the attitude that creates a distinction.

Bottom line - logs change nothing. Any group seeking to develop and become more efficient will find ways to do just that, and if a member is unwilling to adjust to meet that, then that is on them. There are lots of guilds that cater to all levels, so you can always join one that suits.

As much as privacy is and should be a serious discussion in the digital age, your digital data within ESO is a fictitious creation that is owned by ZOS. There is an ethical line here that has deep implications, but such a conversation goes far beyond logs...

I disagree. What some people ‘mistake’ for toxicity is actually .... ‘toxicity’. It has nothing to do with striving for excellence of any other goal. It is simply a bad attitude married to bad communication.

One key challenge for any group striving for anything (vSS HM, winning at sports, succeeding at work) is how to manage individual or group failure. How to, say, manage the fact that player X (it could be me, it could be you) has the worst DPS or keeps making a single mistake repeatedly. A good team or a good leader can adapt to this, either through individual comment and encouragement to help the player and group improve or through managing the replacement of a player in a tactful way. A poorly led team, a poor player or a poor leader.... can’t. And it’s much, much easier to be poor.

Data itself has no inherent toxicity, it can help the player, their group leader and the group understand what works and what doesn’t. But its use must be completely consensual and upfront. It has to be opt-in for players to be comfortable giving it. And all players need to be respectful when viewing or using other players’ data.

Tyralbin

Darkenarlol wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

There is a difference between being asked to share your data and deciding whether the raid/guild is for yourself.

Or data being stored against ones knowledge or acceptance.

As for people that sneak into raids; well they only get to go once.

LightningWitch

blackweb wrote: »

I have been playing ESO since closed beta.

Then you should have been agreeing to every ToS ZoS has been releasing with each new upgrade, which literally states they do not sell, trade, or make available your personal information without consent.

I'm not happy you decided to twist information to suit your false agenda.

Also, you should have thought twice about sharing your actual information to a company who is selling gambling crates to underage players while asking they reconsider selling your "personal" information.

radiostar

blackweb wrote: »

What I need is a way to opt out of sharing my data with third parties.

There is such an option for blizzard accounts. Why not for ZOS accounts?

Some of us argued this point before the logging, and the compromise was to make players "anonymous"

laksikus

I want to get carried too.

But i dont mind the logs

NupidStoob

OP imagine you do a team project on literally anything and one person in that group does nothing. Do you want to work with that person? No you don't. So why is it that in your view that the people that don't want to work with such a person are toxic and not the person that does nothing?

Trials and dungeons are a team effort and everyone has to contribute. There is nothing toxic about people wanting everyone to chime in and every group has the right to demand this. People will find out if you do badly even without esologs or addons anyways. These tools just make it easier.

blackweb

NupidStoob wrote: »

OP imagine you do a team project on literally anything and one person in that group does nothing. Do you want to work with that person? No you don't. So why is it that in your view that the people that don't want to work with such a person are toxic and not the person that does nothing?

Trials and dungeons are a team effort and everyone has to contribute. There is nothing toxic about people wanting everyone to chime in and every group has the right to demand this. People will find out if you do badly even without esologs or addons anyways. These tools just make it easier.

Everyone please stop the pseudo-mind-reading and fake psycho-analysis. It is condescending and disrespectful. None of us can read minds and I doubt that any of us are qualified mental health professionals.

Those of us who want our privacy while playing ESO do not have to provide a reason other than that we value our privacy for whatever reason. If someone gives a reason for their post, just accept it. Lets take each others posts at face value rather than pretending that we can read their minds or discern their motivation. I find the soothsaying of others posts to be snarky at best and delusional at worst.

In the Blizzard battle.net account UI, this simple message describes all that we need to know:

"GAME DATA AND PROFILE PRIVACY

Share my game data with community developers (Enabled/Disabled)
Blizzard allows external developers to build applications and experiences for our players using game data. Unless you turn this share off, some information associated with your Blizzard account, such as gameplay data and your BattleTag, may be shared with external developers. Your name, email address, physical address, telephone number and other similar information will not be shared without your specific consent."

The user is then given the opportunity to click a checkbox to disable information sharing. That is all that is needed. No further discussion outside of what is covered there is needed. We do not need to explain ourselves further.

For me, the sharing of my ESO in game data with third parties reduces the quality of my ESO gaming experience to unacceptable levels. I want my privacy back, the privacy that I had when I started playing ESO in 2014. I never agreed to have my ESO in-game data shared with third parties.

radiostar

Probably what makes it more bothersome is that everything is account based rather than character based. But that's a whole other topic.

Fermian

All npcs have the right to know who damaged them and what damage is done to them. And if they want to share that data with the public thats their decision.😉

VaranisArano

There's two aspects to this thread.

One is about not being able to opt out of ESO Logs, even if we remain anonymous.

The other is about accusing trial guilds of being toxic for requiring members to use ESO Logs to prove they meet guild requirement.

OP, you can't complain about people responding to the second part when it was a major portion of your first post. Not unless you want to be hypocritical about you being allowed to attribute having guild requirement to "condescending toxic elitism" but other posters "not being mindreaders" when it comes to your intent.

If you want to keep the discussion on the first part, well, trial guilds having certain requirements has nothing to do with ZOS not giving us the option to opt out. ZOS could possibly give you that option if they are willing to remove the ability for non-grouped players to use the Logs...but they aren't going to step in and tell trial guilds they can't mandate an ESO Logs resume.

Personally, I'm all for ZOS giving us an opt-out AND for guild being able to set their own standards.

vamp_emily

The only reason I am playing wow again is because of the Blizzard opt out. If an opt out in the account interface is not provided in ESO

lol, that is one good reason to leave a game if "majority" of the people play for fun and don't require data logging.


[ scratches my head ] I wonder what I would do?

- go to craglorn
- advertise "LF players for trial<>"
- Invite players
- start trial
- complete trial

NocturnalSonata

FierceSam wrote: »

NocturnalSonata wrote: »

What some people mistake for toxicity is a group striving for excellence. What some people mistake for striving to achieve excellence is toxicity. It is the attitude that creates a distinction.

Bottom line - logs change nothing. Any group seeking to develop and become more efficient will find ways to do just that, and if a member is unwilling to adjust to meet that, then that is on them. There are lots of guilds that cater to all levels, so you can always join one that suits.

As much as privacy is and should be a serious discussion in the digital age, your digital data within ESO is a fictitious creation that is owned by ZOS. There is an ethical line here that has deep implications, but such a conversation goes far beyond logs...

I disagree. What some people ‘mistake’ for toxicity is actually .... ‘toxicity’. It has nothing to do with striving for excellence of any other goal. It is simply a bad attitude married to bad communication.

One key challenge for any group striving for anything (vSS HM, winning at sports, succeeding at work) is how to manage individual or group failure. How to, say, manage the fact that player X (it could be me, it could be you) has the worst DPS or keeps making a single mistake repeatedly. A good team or a good leader can adapt to this, either through individual comment and encouragement to help the player and group improve or through managing the replacement of a player in a tactful way. A poorly led team, a poor player or a poor leader.... can’t. And it’s much, much easier to be poor.

Data itself has no inherent toxicity, it can help the player, their group leader and the group understand what works and what doesn’t. But its use must be completely consensual and upfront. It has to be opt-in for players to be comfortable giving it. And all players need to be respectful when viewing or using other players’ data.

"some people" - meant that literally.

Consistent worst dps/player performance just means kick eventually, no data is actually required as ingame performance is obvious after enough times. Thats not toxicity that is the basis of fine tuning things. If a team is running for specific goals, and to achieve those goals requires complete group performance (as all end game stuff does), then every little factor is considered. A player can have a few bad rounds, it happens, but if its consistent then... well its obvious.

A good group will work together as long as it is viable to do so, but if 1 or more people are just not meeting the cut then no amount of pep talks is gonna do anything. This is not toxcicity, actually its very reasonable. It would however be rather absurd if said player, even if it was me, remained in a group, when i am not meeting the standard. Again (this is important) no data is required. All data does is remove the nuance and guess work involved. No accusations needed as it is right there.

As far as opt in/out for a group - an individual does not dictate that, the group does. If you/me/anyone else want to opt out. that means opting out of the group. period.

But all of this seems rather moot, as i dont know any casual trial groups that are actually using logs anyway. Only time you see it is fro rpogression groups... why? because they are extremely useful. And if you are running in such a group there is literally no reason why you would opt out of the data sharing unless for selfish reasons or to hide deficiency. Both are poitnless as any half decent team will figure it out quickly anyway.

If you people wanna casual... there are tons of guilds that do just that, namely have fun in vet content. If you wann join progression... then be prepared to adapt and conform to help the grp.

idk

@blackweb

ESOLogs has been part of PC for a year or two now. This was discussed ad nasuem and the only change that Zos saw fit to make is that the opt-out ( to be anonymous) was set as the default vs players having to go into settings to choose to opt-out. This was not done until a player demonstrated on the PTS that the logging would capture players that just happened to be in the area even though they were not in a group with the person logging.

It is imperfect and I have seen better designs elsewhere. Zos has made it clear they do not care enough to revamp how combat damage flows in the game to improve the logging. So in the end the choice is to keep playing with things as they are or quit the game. I hate to say it, but it is really that simple since even if someone were to join a guild that does not log their raid groups does not mean a player in the group will not log.

_adhyffbjjjf12

NupidStoob wrote: »

OP imagine you do a team project on literally anything and one person in that group does nothing. Do you want to work with that person? No you don't. So why is it that in your view that the people that don't want to work with such a person are toxic and not the person that does nothing?

Trials and dungeons are a team effort and everyone has to contribute. There is nothing toxic about people wanting everyone to chime in and every group has the right to demand this. People will find out if you do badly even without esologs or addons anyways. These tools just make it easier.

The real problem is where peeps who are in an instance and the group as a whole is exceeding requirements and will succeed, but despite this someone is singled out because their performance is below a criteria set in someones head. Reality is great groups allow weak players to join, that's how everyone started in Life, we are weak then we learn, we support others. Same as real life really, if i invited a group of players to my house to play a game, I wouldn't tell someone to bugger off because they were bad at the game.

I would much rather be in run that took 40 mins with wipes but the group was pleasant and well mannered and had fun, than be in a group that took 20 minutes and booted someone who was trying but was struggling or new but trying.

AlnilamE

blackweb wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

OP imagine you do a team project on literally anything and one person in that group does nothing. Do you want to work with that person? No you don't. So why is it that in your view that the people that don't want to work with such a person are toxic and not the person that does nothing?

Trials and dungeons are a team effort and everyone has to contribute. There is nothing toxic about people wanting everyone to chime in and every group has the right to demand this. People will find out if you do badly even without esologs or addons anyways. These tools just make it easier.

Everyone please stop the pseudo-mind-reading and fake psycho-analysis. It is condescending and disrespectful. None of us can read minds and I doubt that any of us are qualified mental health professionals.

Those of us who want our privacy while playing ESO do not have to provide a reason other than that we value our privacy for whatever reason. If someone gives a reason for their post, just accept it. Lets take each others posts at face value rather than pretending that we can read their minds or discern their motivation. I find the soothsaying of others posts to be snarky at best and delusional at worst.

In the Blizzard battle.net account UI, this simple message describes all that we need to know:

"GAME DATA AND PROFILE PRIVACY

Share my game data with community developers (Enabled/Disabled)
Blizzard allows external developers to build applications and experiences for our players using game data. Unless you turn this share off, some information associated with your Blizzard account, such as gameplay data and your BattleTag, may be shared with external developers. Your name, email address, physical address, telephone number and other similar information will not be shared without your specific consent."

The user is then given the opportunity to click a checkbox to disable information sharing. That is all that is needed. No further discussion outside of what is covered there is needed. We do not need to explain ourselves further.

For me, the sharing of my ESO in game data with third parties reduces the quality of my ESO gaming experience to unacceptable levels. I want my privacy back, the privacy that I had when I started playing ESO in 2014. I never agreed to have my ESO in-game data shared with third parties.

In ESO, you have the option to set yourself to Anonymous (which is the default option). Then you are Anonymous X. And nobody will know it's you.

If you disagree, give me a specific example outside of the Trial guilds we are mind-reading off you where someone logged an encounter at a world boss or elsewhere and they identified you for whatever reason.

bharathitman

FierceSam wrote: »

NocturnalSonata wrote: »

What some people mistake for toxicity is a group striving for excellence. What some people mistake for striving to achieve excellence is toxicity. It is the attitude that creates a distinction.

Bottom line - logs change nothing. Any group seeking to develop and become more efficient will find ways to do just that, and if a member is unwilling to adjust to meet that, then that is on them. There are lots of guilds that cater to all levels, so you can always join one that suits.

As much as privacy is and should be a serious discussion in the digital age, your digital data within ESO is a fictitious creation that is owned by ZOS. There is an ethical line here that has deep implications, but such a conversation goes far beyond logs...

I disagree. What some people ‘mistake’ for toxicity is actually .... ‘toxicity’. It has nothing to do with striving for excellence of any other goal. It is simply a bad attitude married to bad communication.

One key challenge for any group striving for anything (vSS HM, winning at sports, succeeding at work) is how to manage individual or group failure. How to, say, manage the fact that player X (it could be me, it could be you) has the worst DPS or keeps making a single mistake repeatedly. A good team or a good leader can adapt to this, either through individual comment and encouragement to help the player and group improve or through managing the replacement of a player in a tactful way. A poorly led team, a poor player or a poor leader.... can’t. And it’s much, much easier to be poor.

Data itself has no inherent toxicity, it can help the player, their group leader and the group understand what works and what doesn’t. But its use must be completely consensual and upfront. It has to be opt-in for players to be comfortable giving it. And all players need to be respectful when viewing or using other players’ data.

What would this good leader do when an individual player keeps on telling this leader that ESO is not their job when they are offered constructive criticism on how to improve their gameplay?

VaranisArano

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

OP imagine you do a team project on literally anything and one person in that group does nothing. Do you want to work with that person? No you don't. So why is it that in your view that the people that don't want to work with such a person are toxic and not the person that does nothing?

Trials and dungeons are a team effort and everyone has to contribute. There is nothing toxic about people wanting everyone to chime in and every group has the right to demand this. People will find out if you do badly even without esologs or addons anyways. These tools just make it easier.

The real problem is where peeps who are in an instance and the group as a whole is exceeding requirements and will succeed, but despite this someone is singled out because their performance is below a criteria set in someones head. Reality is great groups allow weak players to join, that's how everyone started in Life, we are weak then we learn, we support others. Same as real life really, if i invited a group of players to my house to play a game, I wouldn't tell someone to bugger off because they were bad at the game.

I would much rather be in run that took 40 mins with wipes but the group was pleasant and well mannered and had fun, than be in a group that took 20 minutes and booted someone who was trying but was struggling or new but trying.

That's a group problem, not a problem with data collection.

I mean, I've been there. Some people are unreasonable. I had a DD yell at a healer for wearing Combat Physician in a normal dungeon before ESO logs was even a thing, and it was ridiculous. But unreasonable people don't need the data to judge other players. Sensible people do use the data for improvement for themselves and their group.

LadyNalcarya

Raisin wrote: »

What really gets me is the entitlement of "This guild has a requirements, they were upfront with me about the requirements but I'm angry that I can't raid with them while refusing to agree to their rules. They don't have a right to establish rules! I should be entitled to raid with this specific guild because I want them, rather than finding one whose rules I agree with." ...

This.
It is true that there are toxic guilds and people who belittle others because of their dps etc... But people who dont want to commit and still want be able to join competitive teams are no less toxic. There's plenty of casual guilds to join and everyone can make their own group. No one is entitled to a spot in someone's group.

Katahdin

Don't want others seeing your log data?

Don't run with groups that require it and don't run logs.

vgabor

Let's put thing more clearly, because right now in this thread multiple aspects are meshed together

blackweb wrote: »

Those of us who want our privacy while playing ESO do not have to provide a reason other than that we value our privacy for whatever reason.

Correct. It is for the individual player to decide what data they want to share.

blackweb wrote: »

]I was told by both trial guilds that I joined that if I wished to remain anonymous, I would not be allowed to run trials with them

Correct. It is for the given group to decide what other players they want to play with.

You have the right to decide how you want to play, but others have the same right to play as they want. You have the right to decide who you want to play with and similarly others have the right to decide if they want to play with you. If a group of players decided to play together and share performance data, it's their right to ask new players wanting to join their group to share their performance data or don't join. Simple as that, if you want to join a group you either comply to their standards or look for another group which has different standards you like better.

ForeverJenn

Yanno. If more ppl would have the balls to put together newbie friendly progression guilds and groups instead of whining about being excluded from "elitist" raiders, we'd have a lot more ppl knowing roles, mechanics and how to do smoother runs.

I ran a guild of casuals that were absolute garbage back in my wow days. But each attempt we got better and better and wins really felt like wins. I'm still too new to ESO to run something like that, but it would be nice to see more of that than complaining about how others decide to run their groups.

Rukia541

blackweb wrote: »

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

Darkenarlol wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

[snip]

Btw addons already exist that tracks ones self DPS so with usually only one other DPS in group it’s easy to tell who’s pulling most of the weight with or without eso logs.

Most people play for ESO for fun, not to be logged on some third-party website where their data can be misused or abused without their consent.

If someone is having fun playing ESO in a way that some would consider badly, that is their prerogative. If we want to be filthy casuals, that is our choice. ESO is a game, not a job.

If everyone "played how they want" things would never get done. Run with groups that don't require anything, or run lower lvl content, it really is that simple. Its not just the players but the actual content that demands you play a certain way for good performance and completing in a reasonable time frame.

If you want to blame anything then blame yourself for not putting in the work, if you consider putting any effort into being good at the game a job then idk what to tell you. Its really not much of a hassle to get a proper gear set and parse well, its not like the rotations are 9000iq galaxy brain. It doesn't even mean you're good at mechanics, it just means you can perform at the bare minimum required/accepted.

I like to play casual too, but I keep those sets for open world or a normal dungeon if I'm feeling lazy. I don't expect anyone to take my silly ass build into a raid because I'll just be hurting the group. If the group is ok with carrying you, then fine, believe me there are plenty of guilds that will carry you through and are more casual.

I think your mind set is more toxic than the "elitists", you have a responsibility to your team mates when you are playing competitive content. In GW2 afaik there is no way to see other players data, but the "elitism" as you so call it still exists for serious content because that's just how it works despite having no logs you will still need to have the right gear and perform well. You can't just autoattack your way through raids in toughness gear and expect your group to be ok with it.

I know its hard to imagine, but not all content is designed with you in mind, and you don't need to play all content that you are not comfortable with. Its not a us problem, its a you problem.

Czekoludek

If you don't want to share your performance among strangers, use anonymous option. As for group members, they have a full right to know if you carry your own weight in trials. Mamy low-end groups don't requires logs. As for high end, logs are great and nobody from these groups will agree with you as these ppl use logs simply to learn and play better

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

Czekoludek wrote: »

If you don't want to share your performance among strangers, use anonymous option. As for group members, they have a full right to know if you carry your own weight in trials. Mamy low-end groups don't requires logs. As for high end, logs are great and nobody from these groups will agree with you as these ppl use logs simply to learn and play better

well i disagree and i go with what you call high end groups, its not needed to learn i learned all stuff in game without addons, like raid notifier etc

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

bharathitman wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

NocturnalSonata wrote: »

What some people mistake for toxicity is a group striving for excellence. What some people mistake for striving to achieve excellence is toxicity. It is the attitude that creates a distinction.

Bottom line - logs change nothing. Any group seeking to develop and become more efficient will find ways to do just that, and if a member is unwilling to adjust to meet that, then that is on them. There are lots of guilds that cater to all levels, so you can always join one that suits.

As much as privacy is and should be a serious discussion in the digital age, your digital data within ESO is a fictitious creation that is owned by ZOS. There is an ethical line here that has deep implications, but such a conversation goes far beyond logs...

I disagree. What some people ‘mistake’ for toxicity is actually .... ‘toxicity’. It has nothing to do with striving for excellence of any other goal. It is simply a bad attitude married to bad communication.

One key challenge for any group striving for anything (vSS HM, winning at sports, succeeding at work) is how to manage individual or group failure. How to, say, manage the fact that player X (it could be me, it could be you) has the worst DPS or keeps making a single mistake repeatedly. A good team or a good leader can adapt to this, either through individual comment and encouragement to help the player and group improve or through managing the replacement of a player in a tactful way. A poorly led team, a poor player or a poor leader.... can’t. And it’s much, much easier to be poor.

Data itself has no inherent toxicity, it can help the player, their group leader and the group understand what works and what doesn’t. But its use must be completely consensual and upfront. It has to be opt-in for players to be comfortable giving it. And all players need to be respectful when viewing or using other players’ data.

What would this good leader do when an individual player keeps on telling this leader that ESO is not their job when they are offered constructive criticism on how to improve their gameplay?

no such thing as constructive criticism, it is still criticism with what ever way you want to sugar coat it, and it will be in 1 person view, you go to 10 peeps and probs each one will have a different view

Czekoludek

blackweb wrote: »

Czekoludek wrote: »

If you don't want to share your performance among strangers, use anonymous option. As for group members, they have a full right to know if you carry your own weight in trials. Mamy low-end groups don't requires logs. As for high end, logs are great and nobody from these groups will agree with you as these ppl use logs simply to learn and play better

[Quoted post was removed]

I read the whole thing. I see your attitude of not wanting to share your data like sets/skills in more serious group play as pretty toxic tbh.
Play casual groups if you don't want to be efficient (or name it Play as you want playstyle). But if you try to achive something with your group (no matter if we are speaking about GS or vAS HM clear) you need to be competent and perform. Guild mates have the full right to check if ppl are carrying their weight and not looking for free carry (and requiring special sets from support role is completely normal as your sets and skills affects performance of all your dds).
You have a big problem with your own toxicity.
Using the most efficient build for content is not toxic.
Calling players toxic because they use that builds is.
Work with your group to synergize gear, skills and buffs is not toxic, it is part of the group play.
Calling players toxic because they want to adjust things like that in group play is.
If you are not having fun playing hard content with competetive group, play easier content with more casual group.
If you want to do some serious staff in the game, you need to commit. Sorry that groups want to check if their healer use hollowfang instead of julianos but at some level julianos healer is just not enough

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

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ghastley

Just out of curiosity, does the WoW opt-out actually suppress that user's data from being included in the overall statistics, or just make them anonymous, like with ESO? And if it's the former, are the bowdlerized stats of any use to anyone?

Dusk_Coven

AlnilamE wrote: »

In ESO, you have the option to set yourself to Anonymous (which is the default option). Then you are Anonymous X. And nobody will know it's you.

Unless no one else set themselves to anonymous. Then by deduction, that anonymous person is you.