UK moves closer towards banning lootboxes

Avariprivateer · July 2020

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

See, I have no idea what "knowing the odds" would do for me.

It allows you to make an informed decision.

I've seen too many threads, on too many forums, from people complaining about RNG; that demonstrate that many many people have no understanding of statistics or randomness.

Telling people that something is a 1% chance (or .1, or .01) will not help the dumb people at all. They'll still open 100 boxes, and then yell "It's a 1 in 100 chance, I opened 100 boxes, where's my prize!?!?!?1"

Only knowing that it's a Really Really Low chance, or knowing that it's exactly a 0.359% chance, won't change a damn thing. Overconfident people will still buy boxes, and the rest of us who know that the odds are "You won't win" will continue to not buy boxes. Only difference is the people opening boxes will yell more about the stated numbers being a lie, the RNG being broken, etc.

"A fool and his money are soon parted" cares nothing for your Actual Odds.

...heck, even something like a 15-20% chance is hard for many people to grasp. They just don't get that it's still very easy to fail 10+ times at that roll. Let alone trying to understand what "I want that mid-tier costume. Getting a mid-tier card is a 20% chance, then getting that costume for the card is a 12% chance" really means.

edit: just to clarify - yes, I think loot boxes are a poor purchase, and the people who pay $ for them are dumb. I just don't think they're gambling, otherwise virtually every "random" thing in life that costs money is also gambling, and vast swathes of our consumer landscape would need to go poof. Like Kinder eggs. And Garbage Pail kids cards.

I'm not terribly familiar with Kinder Eggs but is it generally safe to assume each toy is worth about as much as any other? Or are there special "chase" toys kids grab to complete a series? Lego Collectible Minifigures used to have, a rare one-in-sixty chase minifig but a year or so ago they phased it out, some people were buying the whole $200 box. Some minifigs are slightly more uncommon than other currently but it's gotten better. https://brickshow.com/2020/03/check-out-the-lego-collectible-minifigures-series-20-71027-box-distribution

As far as loot boxes go perceived values seem to be all over the place. For instance, the content in one create might be worth 20 gems yet another might have an apex mount worth 400.

Glurin · July 2020

Avariprivateer wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

See, I have no idea what "knowing the odds" would do for me.

It allows you to make an informed decision.

I've seen too many threads, on too many forums, from people complaining about RNG; that demonstrate that many many people have no understanding of statistics or randomness.

Telling people that something is a 1% chance (or .1, or .01) will not help the dumb people at all. They'll still open 100 boxes, and then yell "It's a 1 in 100 chance, I opened 100 boxes, where's my prize!?!?!?1"

Only knowing that it's a Really Really Low chance, or knowing that it's exactly a 0.359% chance, won't change a damn thing. Overconfident people will still buy boxes, and the rest of us who know that the odds are "You won't win" will continue to not buy boxes. Only difference is the people opening boxes will yell more about the stated numbers being a lie, the RNG being broken, etc.

"A fool and his money are soon parted" cares nothing for your Actual Odds.

...heck, even something like a 15-20% chance is hard for many people to grasp. They just don't get that it's still very easy to fail 10+ times at that roll. Let alone trying to understand what "I want that mid-tier costume. Getting a mid-tier card is a 20% chance, then getting that costume for the card is a 12% chance" really means.

edit: just to clarify - yes, I think loot boxes are a poor purchase, and the people who pay $ for them are dumb. I just don't think they're gambling, otherwise virtually every "random" thing in life that costs money is also gambling, and vast swathes of our consumer landscape would need to go poof. Like Kinder eggs. And Garbage Pail kids cards.

I'm not terribly familiar with Kinder Eggs but is it generally safe to assume each toy is worth about as much as any other?

No. Some of them are real collector's items.

Kinder Eggs are banned in the U.S. by the way. They fall victim to some old legislation that you can't have non-edible objects encased in an edible product. People can and sometimes do get in a lot of trouble trying to bring some home from Canada if they happen to get caught by a by the book Customs agent.

Avariprivateer · July 2020

Glurin wrote: »

Avariprivateer wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

See, I have no idea what "knowing the odds" would do for me.

It allows you to make an informed decision.

I've seen too many threads, on too many forums, from people complaining about RNG; that demonstrate that many many people have no understanding of statistics or randomness.

Telling people that something is a 1% chance (or .1, or .01) will not help the dumb people at all. They'll still open 100 boxes, and then yell "It's a 1 in 100 chance, I opened 100 boxes, where's my prize!?!?!?1"

Only knowing that it's a Really Really Low chance, or knowing that it's exactly a 0.359% chance, won't change a damn thing. Overconfident people will still buy boxes, and the rest of us who know that the odds are "You won't win" will continue to not buy boxes. Only difference is the people opening boxes will yell more about the stated numbers being a lie, the RNG being broken, etc.

"A fool and his money are soon parted" cares nothing for your Actual Odds.

...heck, even something like a 15-20% chance is hard for many people to grasp. They just don't get that it's still very easy to fail 10+ times at that roll. Let alone trying to understand what "I want that mid-tier costume. Getting a mid-tier card is a 20% chance, then getting that costume for the card is a 12% chance" really means.

edit: just to clarify - yes, I think loot boxes are a poor purchase, and the people who pay $ for them are dumb. I just don't think they're gambling, otherwise virtually every "random" thing in life that costs money is also gambling, and vast swathes of our consumer landscape would need to go poof. Like Kinder eggs. And Garbage Pail kids cards.

I'm not terribly familiar with Kinder Eggs but is it generally safe to assume each toy is worth about as much as any other?

No. Some of them are real collector's items.

Kinder Eggs are banned in the U.S. by the way. They fall victim to some old legislation that you can't have non-edible objects encased in an edible product. People can and sometimes do get in a lot of trouble trying to bring some home from Canada if they happen to get caught by a by the book Customs agent.

Are there different versions? I've seen them near checkout areas in stores and I live in New England.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Kinder-JOY-Eggs-30-Count-Individually-Wrapped-Chocolate-Candy-Eggs-With-Toys-Inside-Perfect-Surprise-for-Kids/761513725
https://www.walmart.com/search/?query=kinder eggs

https://www.target.com/p/kinder-joy-sweet-cream-topped-with-cocoa-wafer-bites-chocolate-treat-toy-6ct/-/A-53916333
https://www.target.com/s?searchTerm=kinder+eggs

https://www.cvs.com/search/?cp=[{"key":"source","value":"sayt"}]&searchTerm=kinder eggs

https://www.hannaford.com/search/product?form_state=searchForm&keyword=kinder+eggs&ieDummyTextField=&productTypeId=P

https://www.kroger.com/search?query=kinder eggs&searchType=natural&fulfillment=all

https://www.riteaid.com/shop/catalogsearch/result/?q=kinder+eggs

https://www.walgreens.com/search/results.jsp?Ntt=kinder

Sylvermynx · July 2020

Glurin wrote: »

Avariprivateer wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

See, I have no idea what "knowing the odds" would do for me.

It allows you to make an informed decision.

I've seen too many threads, on too many forums, from people complaining about RNG; that demonstrate that many many people have no understanding of statistics or randomness.

Telling people that something is a 1% chance (or .1, or .01) will not help the dumb people at all. They'll still open 100 boxes, and then yell "It's a 1 in 100 chance, I opened 100 boxes, where's my prize!?!?!?1"

Only knowing that it's a Really Really Low chance, or knowing that it's exactly a 0.359% chance, won't change a damn thing. Overconfident people will still buy boxes, and the rest of us who know that the odds are "You won't win" will continue to not buy boxes. Only difference is the people opening boxes will yell more about the stated numbers being a lie, the RNG being broken, etc.

"A fool and his money are soon parted" cares nothing for your Actual Odds.

...heck, even something like a 15-20% chance is hard for many people to grasp. They just don't get that it's still very easy to fail 10+ times at that roll. Let alone trying to understand what "I want that mid-tier costume. Getting a mid-tier card is a 20% chance, then getting that costume for the card is a 12% chance" really means.

edit: just to clarify - yes, I think loot boxes are a poor purchase, and the people who pay $ for them are dumb. I just don't think they're gambling, otherwise virtually every "random" thing in life that costs money is also gambling, and vast swathes of our consumer landscape would need to go poof. Like Kinder eggs. And Garbage Pail kids cards.

I'm not terribly familiar with Kinder Eggs but is it generally safe to assume each toy is worth about as much as any other?

No. Some of them are real collector's items.

Kinder Eggs are banned in the U.S. by the way. They fall victim to some old legislation that you can't have non-edible objects encased in an edible product. People can and sometimes do get in a lot of trouble trying to bring some home from Canada if they happen to get caught by a by the book Customs agent.

They sell them at my Southern Utah Walmarts. And according to the packaging, they include a toy.

Lysette · July 2020

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Avariprivateer wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

See, I have no idea what "knowing the odds" would do for me.

It allows you to make an informed decision.

I've seen too many threads, on too many forums, from people complaining about RNG; that demonstrate that many many people have no understanding of statistics or randomness.

Telling people that something is a 1% chance (or .1, or .01) will not help the dumb people at all. They'll still open 100 boxes, and then yell "It's a 1 in 100 chance, I opened 100 boxes, where's my prize!?!?!?1"

Only knowing that it's a Really Really Low chance, or knowing that it's exactly a 0.359% chance, won't change a damn thing. Overconfident people will still buy boxes, and the rest of us who know that the odds are "You won't win" will continue to not buy boxes. Only difference is the people opening boxes will yell more about the stated numbers being a lie, the RNG being broken, etc.

"A fool and his money are soon parted" cares nothing for your Actual Odds.

...heck, even something like a 15-20% chance is hard for many people to grasp. They just don't get that it's still very easy to fail 10+ times at that roll. Let alone trying to understand what "I want that mid-tier costume. Getting a mid-tier card is a 20% chance, then getting that costume for the card is a 12% chance" really means.

edit: just to clarify - yes, I think loot boxes are a poor purchase, and the people who pay $ for them are dumb. I just don't think they're gambling, otherwise virtually every "random" thing in life that costs money is also gambling, and vast swathes of our consumer landscape would need to go poof. Like Kinder eggs. And Garbage Pail kids cards.

I'm not terribly familiar with Kinder Eggs but is it generally safe to assume each toy is worth about as much as any other?

No. Some of them are real collector's items.

Kinder Eggs are banned in the U.S. by the way. They fall victim to some old legislation that you can't have non-edible objects encased in an edible product. People can and sometimes do get in a lot of trouble trying to bring some home from Canada if they happen to get caught by a by the book Customs agent.

They sell them at my Southern Utah Walmarts. And according to the packaging, they include a toy.

Maybe that is state legislation then - I heard that some ban it due to having something non-edible inside something edible, and others say the toy parts are too tiny and younger kids could be harmed when they put those in their mouth and might swallow them. I was of the impression as well, that they are banned in the US, but maybe it is just state by state differently.

Danikat · July 2020

Apparently Kinder Joy is legal in the USA because the chocolate and toy are packaged seperately, inside an outer plastic shell:
https://www.today.com/food/kinder-joy-chocolate-eggs-are-coming-us-t118667

The original Kinder Surprise eggs have foil, then a sealed chocolate egg and then inside that is a plastic toy. Hypothetically if you didn't know what it was and didn't read the packaging you could think it's just a chocolate egg and try to put the whole thing in your mouth. (Although I remember them being too big to fit in my mouth when I was a kid.) With the new version it's apparently clearer which bits are edible and which are not.

And going back to the original topic I'm not sure if they've changed now but they definitely used to have themed sets of toys with some (usually the most interesting ones) much rarer than others, for exactly the same reason - it tempted kids to keep getting them hoping for the rare toys. I'm not aware of it ever leading to anything like gambling addiction, but mainly because no one I knew cared that much. Getting the rare toy from a Kinder egg wasn't nearly as cool as getting a rare Pog or Tazo, that would get the whole school talking.

Sylvermynx · July 2020

Danikat wrote: »

Apparently Kinder Joy is legal in the USA because the chocolate and toy are packaged seperately, inside an outer plastic shell:
https://www.today.com/food/kinder-joy-chocolate-eggs-are-coming-us-t118667

The original Kinder Surprise eggs have foil, then a sealed chocolate egg and then inside that is a plastic toy. Hypothetically if you didn't know what it was and didn't read the packaging you could think it's just a chocolate egg and try to put the whole thing in your mouth. (Although I remember them being too big to fit in my mouth when I was a kid.) With the new version it's apparently clearer which bits are edible and which are not.

And going back to the original topic I'm not sure if they've changed now but they definitely used to have themed sets of toys with some (usually the most interesting ones) much rarer than others, for exactly the same reason - it tempted kids to keep getting them hoping for the rare toys. I'm not aware of it ever leading to anything like gambling addiction, but mainly because no one I knew cared that much. Getting the rare toy from a Kinder egg wasn't nearly as cool as getting a rare Pog or Tazo, that would get the whole school talking.

Yah, my granddaughters grew up in Germany (like the birthplace of Kinderüberraschungseier) and even though they were teens when they moved back here, they missed their Kinder eggs. They still (in their mid to late 20s) buy them. Comfort things....

Glurin · July 2020

Avariprivateer wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Avariprivateer wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

See, I have no idea what "knowing the odds" would do for me.

It allows you to make an informed decision.

I've seen too many threads, on too many forums, from people complaining about RNG; that demonstrate that many many people have no understanding of statistics or randomness.

Telling people that something is a 1% chance (or .1, or .01) will not help the dumb people at all. They'll still open 100 boxes, and then yell "It's a 1 in 100 chance, I opened 100 boxes, where's my prize!?!?!?1"

Only knowing that it's a Really Really Low chance, or knowing that it's exactly a 0.359% chance, won't change a damn thing. Overconfident people will still buy boxes, and the rest of us who know that the odds are "You won't win" will continue to not buy boxes. Only difference is the people opening boxes will yell more about the stated numbers being a lie, the RNG being broken, etc.

"A fool and his money are soon parted" cares nothing for your Actual Odds.

...heck, even something like a 15-20% chance is hard for many people to grasp. They just don't get that it's still very easy to fail 10+ times at that roll. Let alone trying to understand what "I want that mid-tier costume. Getting a mid-tier card is a 20% chance, then getting that costume for the card is a 12% chance" really means.

edit: just to clarify - yes, I think loot boxes are a poor purchase, and the people who pay $ for them are dumb. I just don't think they're gambling, otherwise virtually every "random" thing in life that costs money is also gambling, and vast swathes of our consumer landscape would need to go poof. Like Kinder eggs. And Garbage Pail kids cards.

I'm not terribly familiar with Kinder Eggs but is it generally safe to assume each toy is worth about as much as any other?

No. Some of them are real collector's items.

Kinder Eggs are banned in the U.S. by the way. They fall victim to some old legislation that you can't have non-edible objects encased in an edible product. People can and sometimes do get in a lot of trouble trying to bring some home from Canada if they happen to get caught by a by the book Customs agent.

Are there different versions? I've seen them near checkout areas in stores and I live in New England.
[snip]

Yeah, those are a different product that gets around the regulation by keeping the candy and the toy separate. I've also seen some other cheap brands that have all the components, but the toy is outside the egg and all of it comes in a little box. (They don't taste nearly as good as a genuine Kinder Egg though.)

TigressCreed · July 2020

Enough with this already. If you can’t afford the crates don’t buy them. What’s next? Banning casinos and lottery tickets? Free choice everyone

Scion_of_Yggdrasil · July 2020

TigressCreed wrote: »

Enough with this already. If you can’t afford the crates don’t buy them. What’s next? Banning casinos and lottery tickets? Free choice everyone

[snip] the issue isn't about banning casinos and lottery tickets, its about keeping gambling in casinos and on lottery tickets, and out of video games.

[edited for baiting]

JKorr · July 2020

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

TigressCreed wrote: »

Enough with this already. If you can’t afford the crates don’t buy them. What’s next? Banning casinos and lottery tickets? Free choice everyone

[snip] the issue isn't about banning casinos and lottery tickets, its about keeping gambling in casinos and on lottery tickets, and out of video games.

[edited for baiting]

Problem for the "crown crates are gambling" side of things....they really aren't. The original announcement about the crates:
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25871

Crown Crates are a new addition to the ESO Crown Store that will give you a chance to obtain exclusive and unique pets, mounts, and more alongside useful consumable items.

This Thursday, we'll be introducing the first season of Crown Crates to the ESO Crown Store. Crown Crates are purchased through the Crown Store, and contain a randomized selection of useful consumables and collectibles that are valued more than the price of a single crate. In addition, they also offer a chance to obtain unique cosmetic items, pets, or mounts. Crown Crates include new and exclusive items, as well as some items you might have missed in previous limited time offers.

Whenever you purchase a Crown Crate, you will always be awarded four items, with the chance to get a fifth item. In the event you receive a mount, pet, costume or personality that you already own from your Crown Crate, you'll be awarded a new resource - Crown Gems - in its place. You will also have the option to convert several items obtained from Crown Crates to Crown Gems any time you want. Items that can be manually converted include potions, poisons, riding lessons, experience scrolls, and other utility-type items. Any Crown Gems you earn can then be used to purchase the collectible items of your choosing from the current Crown Crate season.

There is no gambling; you get the random useful consumables and collectibles that are valued more bundled together than the cost of the crate. The fact people buy them trying to get specific items/mounts is totally on them. The crown crates aren't sold as "take a gamble to maybe get a different mount or super sparkly outfit and get nothing else".

Scion_of_Yggdrasil · July 2020

JKorr wrote: »

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

TigressCreed wrote: »

Enough with this already. If you can’t afford the crates don’t buy them. What’s next? Banning casinos and lottery tickets? Free choice everyone

[snip] the issue isn't about banning casinos and lottery tickets, its about keeping gambling in casinos and on lottery tickets, and out of video games.

[edited for baiting]

Problem for the "crown crates are gambling" side of things....they really aren't. The original announcement about the crates:
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25871

Crown Crates are a new addition to the ESO Crown Store that will give you a chance to obtain exclusive and unique pets, mounts, and more alongside useful consumable items.

This Thursday, we'll be introducing the first season of Crown Crates to the ESO Crown Store. Crown Crates are purchased through the Crown Store, and contain a randomized selection of useful consumables and collectibles that are valued more than the price of a single crate. In addition, they also offer a chance to obtain unique cosmetic items, pets, or mounts. Crown Crates include new and exclusive items, as well as some items you might have missed in previous limited time offers.

Whenever you purchase a Crown Crate, you will always be awarded four items, with the chance to get a fifth item. In the event you receive a mount, pet, costume or personality that you already own from your Crown Crate, you'll be awarded a new resource - Crown Gems - in its place. You will also have the option to convert several items obtained from Crown Crates to Crown Gems any time you want. Items that can be manually converted include potions, poisons, riding lessons, experience scrolls, and other utility-type items. Any Crown Gems you earn can then be used to purchase the collectible items of your choosing from the current Crown Crate season.

There is no gambling; you get the random useful consumables and collectibles that are valued more bundled together than the cost of the crate. The fact people buy them trying to get specific items/mounts is totally on them. The crown crates aren't sold as "take a gamble to maybe get a different mount or super sparkly outfit and get nothing else".

Actually, they absolutely are. What items do you see advertised on social media? What items do you see as soon as you log in? Not the potions, food, or cosmetics. You see the rare items.

First of all, you are arguing semantics when it comes to what gambling is (as we know it). Regardless, gross monetization is gross monetization. Most of my comments on anti-crate threads talk about the greed/dishonesty of the practice, not just its similarities to gambling.

Second of all, funny you mention that because... that's part of the problem. That is why companies can get away with it. Technicalities. That's why there are so many laws, and bylaws, in regards to just about anything. Warning labels, especially the ones that seem obvious, almost always have a law-suit story behind them. Someone, somewhere, is always looking for a loop hole. In this case, all these items holding no real value, and the fact you get something makes the issue clear as mud.

Someone commented on another thread:
"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck..."

Are we still receiving something when purchasing/opening a crown crate? Yes. But lets be honest... who wants the potion/food/poison/other irrelevant items? We want the rare rewards, which are advertised, hyped up, and dangled in front of our faces. "Still getting something regardless" is a stale argument. A chance is a chance, whether or not you get something in the end or not. The end goal (slot machine jackpot vs desired crate item) is what matters. You don't go to a casino to donate your money and linger in a fancy building, you are putting that coin in the slot and pulling the lever hoping for a jackpot (or whatever casino game it is that you fancy, you still play to WIN). You are purchasing a crown crate hoping for a specific item, or multiple items! Whether its technically "gambling" or not, its preying on the same human desire, and designed to get more money out of you, instead of being a mutual exchange in good faith. How sales are supposed to look: You give me money, I give you [insert specific product/service]. Even if you don't think its "gambling" would you not have a problem if your hair stylist decided to give you a random hair cut and demand you pay them again for the one you want?

It would be different if we could still purchase crate exclusive items with crowns. But no, you have to buy crates for a chance to get what you want, and if you don't get it, you have to purchase more crates for another chance, or to obtain a second currency... and crown gem prices are criminal. Combine that with how few gems you get in one pull, and how many pulls you'd need to obtain 400 gems?

Do you quit the slot machine after you lose once? Or do you keep playing till you win/run out of money? Yah, you can quit any time, but that's not the point. You buy a crate to get the prized item. So for the other common, invalid argument... how does "personal choice" disprove that crates are predatory/monetization to the extreme? Personal choice doesn't make gambling not gambling.

And lastly... would you like to purchase clothing, or groceries, in the form of crates? No, it seems absurd to go into a store to buy something, and the seller offer you a chance at what you want. Crates are most definitely not sold as a sale pack, or a variety pack. They are used to entice you to throw money at a chance at the good items, all the while throwing useless trash your way to get away with it.

Sargesgaming · July 2020

Actually I think it is a 17 and up game as it is rated mature, but asks for age of 18 to watch trailers, yet ask if you are 13 when signing into the game?! Therefor the "GAME" is for 13 and up...this is why they ask if you are atleast 13 years of age when you register an account when signing up.

In no way should there be gambling in a game for any of these age ranges, except for the ones watching the trailers of the gameplay lmao.

Also there is plenty worldwide into affect of said nature of gambling and a dedicated FBI website for such games as this to report on as they are making cases for such things.

It is not just a little thing.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil · July 2020

Sargesgaming wrote: »

Actually I think it is a 17 and up game as it is rated mature, but asks for age of 18 to watch trailers, yet ask if you are 13 when signing into the game?! Therefor the "GAME" is for 13 and up...this is why they ask if you are atleast 13 years of age when you register an account when signing up.

In no way should there be gambling in a game for any of these age ranges, except for the ones watching the trailers of the gameplay lmao.

Also there is plenty worldwide into affect of said nature of gambling and a dedicated FBI website for such games as this to report on as they are making cases for such things.

It is not just a little thing.

The fact that there are "18+ Only" Guilds in an age 18+ game....

holden_caulfield · July 2020

The problem is also about rarity.
Let's say they have just 10 super cool mounts. They let us buy them in the store for crowns. In this scenario what price tag should they apply?
Because if it is cheap the whole server would have one of those mounts.
If they cost really much they will be rare but the same people who whine about crares would whine about the fact they cannot afford those virtual pixels.
So I don't see how they can do. We all want the pretty things. Only few of us can have them. Why this should be different.

I don't even want an radiant apex mount. Surely not if everybody and their mothers have one

holden_caulfield · July 2020

holden_caulfield wrote: »

The problem is also about rarity.
Let's say they have just 10 super cool mounts. They let us buy them in the store for crowns. In this scenario what price tag should they apply?
Because if it is cheap the whole server would have one of those mounts.
If they cost really much they will be rare but the same people who whine about crares would whine about the fact they cannot afford those virtual pixels.
So I don't see how they can do. We all want the pretty things. Only few of us can have them. Why this should be different.

I don't even want an radiant apex mount. Surely not if everybody and their mothers have one

Infact I don't even care. These games are paid with gametime and/or money. I work so I have more of the seconds but I dont care so much to invest thousands in this game. I confess I have done it in other mmorpg

JKorr · July 2020

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

TigressCreed wrote: »

Enough with this already. If you can’t afford the crates don’t buy them. What’s next? Banning casinos and lottery tickets? Free choice everyone

[snip] the issue isn't about banning casinos and lottery tickets, its about keeping gambling in casinos and on lottery tickets, and out of video games.

[edited for baiting]

Problem for the "crown crates are gambling" side of things....they really aren't. The original announcement about the crates:
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25871

Crown Crates are a new addition to the ESO Crown Store that will give you a chance to obtain exclusive and unique pets, mounts, and more alongside useful consumable items.

This Thursday, we'll be introducing the first season of Crown Crates to the ESO Crown Store. Crown Crates are purchased through the Crown Store, and contain a randomized selection of useful consumables and collectibles that are valued more than the price of a single crate. In addition, they also offer a chance to obtain unique cosmetic items, pets, or mounts. Crown Crates include new and exclusive items, as well as some items you might have missed in previous limited time offers.

Whenever you purchase a Crown Crate, you will always be awarded four items, with the chance to get a fifth item. In the event you receive a mount, pet, costume or personality that you already own from your Crown Crate, you'll be awarded a new resource - Crown Gems - in its place. You will also have the option to convert several items obtained from Crown Crates to Crown Gems any time you want. Items that can be manually converted include potions, poisons, riding lessons, experience scrolls, and other utility-type items. Any Crown Gems you earn can then be used to purchase the collectible items of your choosing from the current Crown Crate season.

There is no gambling; you get the random useful consumables and collectibles that are valued more bundled together than the cost of the crate. The fact people buy them trying to get specific items/mounts is totally on them. The crown crates aren't sold as "take a gamble to maybe get a different mount or super sparkly outfit and get nothing else".

Actually, they absolutely are. What items do you see advertised on social media? What items do you see as soon as you log in? Not the potions, food, or cosmetics. You see the rare items.

First of all, you are arguing semantics when it comes to what gambling is (as we know it). Regardless, gross monetization is gross monetization. Most of my comments on anti-crate threads talk about the greed/dishonesty of the practice, not just its similarities to gambling.

Second of all, funny you mention that because... that's part of the problem. That is why companies can get away with it. Technicalities. That's why there are so many laws, and bylaws, in regards to just about anything. Warning labels, especially the ones that seem obvious, almost always have a law-suit story behind them. Someone, somewhere, is always looking for a loop hole. In this case, all these items holding no real value, and the fact you get something makes the issue clear as mud.

Someone commented on another thread:
"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck..."

Are we still receiving something when purchasing/opening a crown crate? Yes. But lets be honest... who wants the potion/food/poison/other irrelevant items? We want the rare rewards, which are advertised, hyped up, and dangled in front of our faces. "Still getting something regardless" is a stale argument. A chance is a chance, whether or not you get something in the end or not. The end goal (slot machine jackpot vs desired crate item) is what matters. You don't go to a casino to donate your money and linger in a fancy building, you are putting that coin in the slot and pulling the lever hoping for a jackpot (or whatever casino game it is that you fancy, you still play to WIN). You are purchasing a crown crate hoping for a specific item, or multiple items! Whether its technically "gambling" or not, its preying on the same human desire, and designed to get more money out of you, instead of being a mutual exchange in good faith. How sales are supposed to look: You give me money, I give you [insert specific product/service]. Even if you don't think its "gambling" would you not have a problem if your hair stylist decided to give you a random hair cut and demand you pay them again for the one you want?

It would be different if we could still purchase crate exclusive items with crowns. But no, you have to buy crates for a chance to get what you want, and if you don't get it, you have to purchase more crates for another chance, or to obtain a second currency... and crown gem prices are criminal. Combine that with how few gems you get in one pull, and how many pulls you'd need to obtain 400 gems?

Do you quit the slot machine after you lose once? Or do you keep playing till you win/run out of money? Yah, you can quit any time, but that's not the point. You buy a crate to get the prized item. So for the other common, invalid argument... how does "personal choice" disprove that crates are predatory/monetization to the extreme? Personal choice doesn't make gambling not gambling.

And lastly... would you like to purchase clothing, or groceries, in the form of crates? No, it seems absurd to go into a store to buy something, and the seller offer you a chance at what you want. Crates are most definitely not sold as a sale pack, or a variety pack. They are used to entice you to throw money at a chance at the good items, all the while throwing useless trash your way to get away with it.

When they tried the crates on the PTS, I tested them. I was one of the many many people who pointed out, after buying [with gold that magically appeared in your bank] all the crates you could with 5k, every day for 10 or more days, that no one was ever going to bother with buying [for real] the crates, because of the literally hundreds of potions, poisons, and food that we got, when players could craft items as good or better for "free" in the game. We got a response that basically said, "We hear you; there will be some changes made, but the changes won't be in place in time to be tried on the pts before it goes live." What we got was the "trade back consumables for gems"; no change on the hats, jewelry, and tattoos you didn't want and would never use. I guess the few hundred pages many people of pointing out that no one would be buying the crates for food/potions/poisons got a little bit of attention.

I buy mounts from the store. I'll do events for tickets for mounts I want. I don't buy crates. I haven't bought crates. I have traded back the stuff you can from the free crates they used to give out. I did buy a couple of cats with the gems from the free crates. I would be thrilled to be able to buy the specific items I want for a set price. There are some of the senches I want that I'll never get unless they do put them out for outright sale. Pointing out that they did a CYA technically worded loophole isn't endorsing the crates.

volkeswagon · July 2020

i think zenimax should take charge and just get rid of crates. just have stuff available for crowns

Scion_of_Yggdrasil · July 2020

volkeswagon wrote: »

i think zenimax should take charge and just get rid of crates. just have stuff available for crowns

I have lost faith that they would be a leader in this controversial battle (crates in gaming).... more and more items go into the crates, instead of the crown store.

The very least they could do is release items from older crown crates for direct purchase. Don't bring back old crates again, just release the items we all liked from old crates for purchase with crowns. That would be a decent compromise, since I don't see crates being banned any time soon, unfortunately. Why haven't they done that though? Because they know people wouldn't buy the crates, and instead patiently wait for the items they want to be released in the crown store.

Of all the "chance" crate models I have seen, crown crates are the worst. Even gacha games with summons aren't as bad as crown crates. A mobile MMO I used to play would eventually release the rare heroes in an easier summon (pick 4 favorite heroes, and they have 5x rates, or one is guaranteed on the 3rd summon) or add them to the free summon (free when you watch ads).

It also makes no sense whatsoever how bland the crown store is. With all the content they have made over the years, they could be boasting a massive selection. Im the type of person who spent hours just browsing the crown furniture store, imagine if I could browse all the content ever released in the regular crown store? I'm happy to support a game/company I enjoy, but via a respectable transaction, not a scam: crown crates.

PrimusNephilim · July 2020

drakthir wrote: »

Below is a copy/paste from the BBC news link - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53253195

regulated under gambling laws

Regulations is another word for taxed

ArchangelIsraphel · July 2020

Glurin wrote: »

Avariprivateer wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

See, I have no idea what "knowing the odds" would do for me.

It allows you to make an informed decision.

I've seen too many threads, on too many forums, from people complaining about RNG; that demonstrate that many many people have no understanding of statistics or randomness.

Telling people that something is a 1% chance (or .1, or .01) will not help the dumb people at all. They'll still open 100 boxes, and then yell "It's a 1 in 100 chance, I opened 100 boxes, where's my prize!?!?!?1"

Only knowing that it's a Really Really Low chance, or knowing that it's exactly a 0.359% chance, won't change a damn thing. Overconfident people will still buy boxes, and the rest of us who know that the odds are "You won't win" will continue to not buy boxes. Only difference is the people opening boxes will yell more about the stated numbers being a lie, the RNG being broken, etc.

"A fool and his money are soon parted" cares nothing for your Actual Odds.

...heck, even something like a 15-20% chance is hard for many people to grasp. They just don't get that it's still very easy to fail 10+ times at that roll. Let alone trying to understand what "I want that mid-tier costume. Getting a mid-tier card is a 20% chance, then getting that costume for the card is a 12% chance" really means.

edit: just to clarify - yes, I think loot boxes are a poor purchase, and the people who pay $ for them are dumb. I just don't think they're gambling, otherwise virtually every "random" thing in life that costs money is also gambling, and vast swathes of our consumer landscape would need to go poof. Like Kinder eggs. And Garbage Pail kids cards.

I'm not terribly familiar with Kinder Eggs but is it generally safe to assume each toy is worth about as much as any other?

No. Some of them are real collector's items.

Kinder Eggs are banned in the U.S. by the way. They fall victim to some old legislation that you can't have non-edible objects encased in an edible product. People can and sometimes do get in a lot of trouble trying to bring some home from Canada if they happen to get caught by a by the book Customs agent.

Can confirm that some toys are definitely rarer than others as I am a collector of all things action figure and have purchased kinder eggs to get various Jurassic Park and other memorabilia from movies I like. They are very "Gachapon" like, or blind box like, reminding me of the different blind boxes sold with food (or just by themselves) in Japan, where certain highly coveted characters will be much rarer than others. For instance with the JP toys, in spite of buying many, I never scored a T-Rex, but have a whole legion of triceratops XD

I Live in new england and have purchased the versions where the food and toy and separate. They usually have a weird frosting-like pudding with these crunchy chocolate things mixed into it, and are not a solid chocolate egg at all. Not as much fun as the canadian ones IMO.

Still...they are what I would consider to be a form of "loot box" in spite of the garunteed prize. I like these things because I enjoy the Gachapon experience from japan, I find it fun to purchase them when I'm in the mood, just as I do the crown crates, but by no means do I go out of my way or go crazy to get something. If I get it I get it, if I don't I don't.

Still, I"d like to see some changes made to crown crates, even if I'm glad this system offers crown gems for already acquired items.