UK moves closer towards banning lootboxes

Thevampirenight · July 2020

Elder Scrolls Online crown crates actually are the best example for any gaming publisher to design them. The one thing that Zenimax needs to change is the jack pot exclusive mounts. Those should be converted to where you can buy them for like 700 gems or something. So that way everything in those boxes can be earned by collecting tickets and buying outright if you don't get it from the boxes itself.
Outright banning could cause companies to lose lots of revenue. Not good for any investors who would lose money but actually watched someones video on this one time. Lost revenue could cause real people who have real jobs to lose those jobs in layoffs. So there has to be some type of balance. What I think needs to be done is make it so all those that use a lockbox system has to design them exactly how Eso does and make it so every prize coming out of it can be exchanged for a currency to buy the other items in said lootbox outright.

The way Elder Scrolls Online does is more like a video arcade where you exchange real money for fake coins to use on various gaming devices inside an arcade. Where you can get tickets to exchange for a prize. That is how Elder Scrolls online does it and that is what lootbox creators should be required to do.

Here is the thing on regulating them right now, the video game industry can change the mechanics of their lootboxes and in ways that are possible to bypass any law all together.

Cryptic does it by not even selling the lootboxes directly and selling the keys to open them up though they might have to stop doing those
random event gamble mechanics they do in Sto when it comes to the duty officer packs If it was alright banned in many countries.
So unless countries are able to close all the possible loopholes. They can bypass any laws that are made because of this advantage they have. If they ban the direct sell of lootboxes. All Zenimax would have to do is move the boxes directly out of the crownstore as random loot rewards in game and then sell the means to open them like a crown store key. Maybe add in a unique ui for crown gems and then they are all good. They can do that to bypass a direct ban and since they are not selling the crates themselves they could legally skate off.

thomas1970b16_ESO · July 2020

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

I guess these are the most probable outcome
1. Nothing happen
2. Some law is passed but eso is unnafected due to it being 18+
3. Eso must follow some regulation like full disclosure of drop rate
4. They are banned

Also those would be contry based laws
The make point 4 and 5 only enforced in that specific country (i mean a law in uk as no legal power outside of uk as far as i know)
So zos could remove crate only for those in that specific country with ip adress with or without other way to optain x crate item(like direct crown purchase) thus potentially locking out uk player from optainig some item

or it could be server based only unbuyable on the eu server the again with or without alternative way of optainig those

Or complete removal of the crate, again with or without replacement
Sure i would like to be able to purchase some apex mount for crown but i doubt it will reach that side of the world soon

I am hoping for 3 or 4. Preferrably 4.

Gythral · July 2020

regulate & ban are too very different things
& imo
regulate is a euphemism for "TAX to high heaven"...

Lysette · July 2020

Regulations could be - items in loot boxes cannot be traded (ESO has this already in place). Or it could be that the actual chances have to be stated, that people can see before they buy, how low of a chance they have to get their desired item (but ESO has this gem system in place, what goes around this problem somewhat). But I think UK is just worried about negative effects on players under 18 - so games like this will have to have a mature rating, ESO has this as well already. As much as I dislike those gambling crates, I think that ZOS has nothing to fear for.

And then again, it is somewhat weird to see this coming from UK, where one can actually bet on pretty much anything.

orion_1981usub17_ESO · July 2020

Loot boxes are a suckers game, you'd be better off actually gambling, you might actual win something. If you have a loot box problem or know a friend that has a lootbox problem, try to kick the habit... they only exist because the addict exists too. Lootboxes divert from the great quality of the game and I sigh when I see folks on loot box mounts....

[Edit to remove bait]

Tandor · July 2020

Tyralbin wrote: »

In regards to them getting banned in the UK I can't see this happening with our current government.

The report says stricter regulation (ie. taxes).

The casino industry in the UK pays 50% tax.

I can see this as the way this government will take things.

Now if a certain other party got in they would move to get them banned.

I'm pretty certain that other party's priorities would cut much deeper into the capitalist system than video game lootboxes.

Maxx7410 · July 2020

Easy just ban UK

Maxx7410 · July 2020

anyway soon it wont be UK anymore no?

Tandor · July 2020

Lysette wrote: »

Regulations could be - items in loot boxes cannot be traded (ESO has this already in place). Or it could be that the actual chances have to be stated, that people can see before they buy, how low of a chance they have to get their desired item (but ESO has this gem system in place, what goes around this problem somewhat). But I think UK is just worried about negative effects on players under 18 - so games like this will have to have a mature rating, ESO has this as well already. As much as I dislike those gambling crates, I think that ZOS has nothing to fear for.

And then again, it is somewhat weird to see this coming from UK, where one can actually bet on pretty much anything.

I wouldn't reckon on a UK government doing anything - beyond possibly joining in a global move to require odds to be stated, if such a move was forthcoming. It wouldn't even have to fall in line with any EU move now although that moribund institution has little chance of agreeing a united position on lootboxes in the first place!

[Edit to remove politics]

Anhedonie · July 2020

I mean gambling is finally being recognized as gambling. That's good.

[Deleted User] · July 2020

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Avariprivateer · July 2020

what_the wrote: »

Avariprivateer wrote: »

holden_caulfield wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

holden_caulfield wrote: »

I still don't understand all the hate.
We are surrounded by gambling service's. They are an important part of countries income.
In eso crates are FREE. yes free. Farm gold buy crowns and open your evil boxes.
What is that bother many of u so much?
Me? Never bought any crate. Actually if it wouldn't for this forum I forget they exist

They aren't free. Someone has to spend real money so you can get your chance at the item you want.

I dislike Crown Crates because it's bad for consumers to only get a chance at the item they want. But it's amazing for ZOS' profits, so it won't substantially change. ZOS will simply follow any new regulations and continue funneling new items into the Crown Crates.

That someone isn't U. And THAT someone could spend his entire income on whatever he wants. So that someone is doing what he likes and u get something for free.

What's your problem with that?

Loot Box related spending can morph into a form of problem or impulse gambling, which statistically leads to higher rates of suicide in humans.
https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-gambling-disorder-22015
excerpt
Although gambling problems may seem trivial on the surface, in reality, they are anything but. One of the reasons that gambling disorder has become recognized is because of the severe consequences for individuals and their families.

Not only do some people who develop gambling disorder literally gamble away everything they own, and end up in crippling debt, but far more of them become suicidal than would be expected in the general population.

In treatment populations, about half of those with gambling disorder have suicidal ideation, and about 18% have attempted suicide.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/13/problem-gamblers-at-15-times-higher-risk-of-suicide-study-finds
https://knowtheodds.org/blog/problem-gambling-suicide-ideation/

wow, then I guess it's a good thing buying crates isn't gambling.

From an academic perspective it really is, primarily similar to prizes awarded from scratch tickets. I've spent enough time chittchatting with Phds and MDs when I lived at Yale to understand how important it is to engage in serious discussions concerning the improvement of societal health, both financially and mentally. For example, most people don't realize this, but the increased cost of healthcare, funded both publicly and privately, far exceeds the revenues accrued from the taxation of tobacco and alcohol.

Legally, In some jurisdictions it is indeed considered gambling, these include but are not limited to the Commonwealth of Australia, Isle of Man, Kingdom of Belgium and the State of Maine. There are both legal reviews and legislation pending elsewhere.

Salix_alba · July 2020

my thoughts about people beating a dead horse by creating 'nya nya now what group x' posts like OPs to get people embroiled in a pointless discussion, are probably against the T.O.S. my thoughts that is all the name calling and profanity it would entail so i'll just not do it.

Hurbster · July 2020

Maxx7410 wrote: »

Easy just ban UK

Huge market, not happening.

Danikat · July 2020

Lysette wrote: »

Regulations could be - items in loot boxes cannot be traded (ESO has this already in place). Or it could be that the actual chances have to be stated, that people can see before they buy, how low of a chance they have to get their desired item (but ESO has this gem system in place, what goes around this problem somewhat). But I think UK is just worried about negative effects on players under 18 - so games like this will have to have a mature rating, ESO has this as well already. As much as I dislike those gambling crates, I think that ZOS has nothing to fear for.

And then again, it is somewhat weird to see this coming from UK, where one can actually bet on pretty much anything.

As you said they're mainly concerned about the effects on under 18s. Other forms of gambling are legal, but for over 18s and with other restrictions in place which are intended to help stop gambling addicts (or just optimists with poor judgement) from losing too much money. Whereas at the moment games with loot boxes can be rated as low as 3+ so children could buy them and end up pressured to buy loot boxes. Especially in some of the more predatory games where that's practically the only way to get anywhere.

But that's the thing with any type of legislation, it doesn't have to be an absolute all or nothing decision. That's how a lot of laws end up so complicated - they're addressing the specifics of what exactly makes something problematic and what needs to be done to prevent or change it rather than simply slapping blanket bans on anything which sounds bad.

SgtPepperUK · July 2020

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

No, that's not what I was trying to say. It was a sarcastic/cynical comment.

I'm assuming, if all this does come to some real "ban" result, that the inept lawmakers will draft something so vague and ill-defined, that it will be used by opportunist/troll lawyers to destroy virtually everything involving "random" (like CCG card packs, etc). And that, at the same time, in order to make up for the loss of revenue, the game companies will come up with something that ends up screwing us all over, worse.
(i.e, the end result, for everyone, will be worse than if it had been left alone.)

Fair enough, limitations of text can make it hard to pick up on sarcasm sometimes

On to your further point, if items currently in crates were simply sold in the store (and without time limits) I think ZOS would make a lot of that loss back. I don't believe I'm the only one who would be willing to straight up buy an item but would give it a pass if it's gated behind a lootbox mechanic.

Even without crates, I'd imagine ESO is plenty profitable from ESO Plus, expansion sales and everyday Crown Store purchases.

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Elder Scrolls Online crown crates actually are the best example for any gaming publisher to design them.

See, I've seen this before. When the Battlefront 2 furor happened, the likes of Blizzard were all "Oh, our lootboxes aren't a problem like EAs".

Pointing out a more egregious example of something is not a defense.

Whilst I can see some merit in the Gem system, Crown Crates are gambling, and from that perspective are no better or worse than any other type of lootbox system in other games.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · July 2020

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

See, I have no idea what "knowing the odds" would do for me.

It allows you to make an informed decision.

Sealish · July 2020

An issue I see coming up when trying to regulate or ban these by calling them gambling is this:

Zenimax made sure that the value of the things you get from the crown crate regardless of what they are will be more than the value of the crate its self. Even if you don't get what you were hoping to get, you never loose.

It is also removed from a real-money transaction by a degree. You pay $XX for XX crowns. You are only entitled to the value of those crowns. No matter what you get from a crown crate, you will be getting a better deal than if you just purchased the items outright with crowns.

I see this being a difficult hurdle for regulation to get over.

LuxLunae · July 2020

I don't know why it's so hard for these companies to put a limit on the amount spent...

like $100 per day or something.

I mean I know why they don't do it. However will it kill to regulate themselves?

Sealish · July 2020

LuxLunae wrote: »

I don't know why it's so hard for these companies to put a limit on the amount spent...

like $100 per day or something.

I mean I know why they don't do it. However will it kill to regulate themselves?

Because everyone's financial situation is different, and it wouldn't change anything.
To some, $100 is nothing and they want to drop $1000 when a new crate gets released. They have the money and it means nothing. To others, spending $100 is huge and financially detrimental. Plus... if someone is going to spend $1000 on the game, it actually feels like less if you do it over 10 days than if you do it all at once and could even lead to those people spending "just one more day" paying.

It would just be annoying to those who can afford it, and wouldn't stop those who can't.

Red_Feather · July 2020

I hope the use of loot boxes requires paying a special license fee and regulation fee and all kinds of fees until they become a massive money pit.

Sealish · July 2020

Red_Feather wrote: »

I hope the use of loot boxes requires paying a special license fee and regulation fee and all kinds of fees until they become a massive money pit.

And if that happens, we can expect the price in-store to go up comparatively. Companies don’t pay additional fees, consumers do.

EmEm_Oh · July 2020

Looks like more disclaimers. Not really banning them per se.

Hanokihs · July 2020

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

See, I have no idea what "knowing the odds" would do for me.

It allows you to make an informed decision.

Lol no it doesn't.

The only information anyone needs for crates is that you might get a bonus card on each draw (but don't count on it), that your bonus card might have something cool on it that you want (but it probably won't), and at the end of the day, you'll only be a thousand or so potions/poisons richer, even if you spend thousands of actual dollars to angrily yell at Pacrooti to shut his skooma hole.

Red_Feather · July 2020

Sealish wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

I hope the use of loot boxes requires paying a special license fee and regulation fee and all kinds of fees until they become a massive money pit.

And if that happens, we can expect the price in-store to go up comparatively. Companies don’t pay additional fees, consumers do.

Quit being so cynical. A business eventually has to cut something completely if it costs them too much money and affects their income. It is such a good thing if a game wanting to sell gambling requires them paying MASSIVE fees.

Titansteele · July 2020

holden_caulfield wrote: »

Besides UK has been a pioneer in gambling. In UK i can gamble on almost everything

Bet you cant!

tsaescishoeshiner · July 2020

Tandor wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

Since ESO is already rated 18 in the UK (and those age ratings are legally enforced, if only at the point of sale) and online gambling is already legal for over 18s here the only way it's likely to affect this game is that ZOS might be required to pay for a gambling licence and comply with the conditions, which includes things like reporting annually on the type/s of gambling you offer and the profits made.

I'm certain ZOS would be able to do that, but they might decide it's not worth the hassle for the income they get from UK players buying loot boxes (I have no idea how much that is, I'm just talking hypothetically here) and it's easier to block anyone in the UK from buying crown crates, or to change them so they don't qualify as gambling under the updated law.

Although it's also possible, depending on the exact wording of the updated law, that crown crates won't qualify anyway. I've been following this review for a while and a big part of the focus is on games where you can sell the stuff you get from loot boxes. A lot of companies brush that off by saying they don't allow it, but of course that doesn't stop players going to sites like Ebay or even Facebook and selling their items to other people. Whereas in ESO it's literally impossible because anything you get from crown crates is bound to your account and can't be traded.

Agreed, plus the lootboxes that cause the most controversy are those where you either get what you want or nothing, whereas with crown crates you always get things equivalent at least in theory to the cost of the crate (although what something is worth to an individual player will vary according to the player).

The cost of crown crate junk is set by ZOS and thus completely arbitrary. Ever wonder why Crown potions are so expensive in Crowns? One effect of that is that it makes crate junk "worth" more.

Crown Tri-restoration potions cost 20 Crowns each — 2,600 gold (with the current 1:130 Crown exchange rate on PC/NA). That's 10-20x more than the identical crafted ones. According to crowncrates.com, you have a 43% chance of getting 5 tri-pots from a Crate — which would make up 100 Crowns from your crate worth 300-400 Crowns.

It would be interesting to estimate the average Crown value of Crates, which would require evaluating the skins and furnishings based on similar releases, and then to adjust that down by the "actual" player value of the consumables, which are equal to or worse than crafted ones.

Galwylin · July 2020

This viewpoint is coming from a country where gambling addition is at record highs. Especially for younger people. Its the start of "won't someone think of the children" but that's not where they hope to take it. I believe some sport teams are being forced to disassociate with gambling companies and this is without any laws being changed or reinterpreted. Though not all, lots of games have an 18+ rating but lawmakers still see for children as the target audience so even if you don't think this could affect games like ESO we'll just see a study how minors are gaining access to them to ensure we're all clear they prey on our children. I worked in retail once and we had to be forced to card purchasers because there simply wasn't much enforcement at the time. Violence in video game makes the news, we enforce again etc. I think its still going to have an affect on all games especially in a country that already considers itself to have a problem.

Now if there are companies barely turning a profit I'm not sure there would have been much push. But if you look at it as companies profiting on the health of citizens and it seems much more evil. Though its also those profits that have let them keep this at bay. But it seems inevitable and if companies don't change they could reignite the whole violence debate also. Billions of dollars in profits have created an image where video game players think of several companies as soulless unhealthy reaper of souls. Who put profits above all else. Not just their consumers health but we don't even think they put the quality of what they are selling above it (EA always the perfect example). I expect the trend of these companies to continue. And I'm curious where companies that think video games are a direct competitor, like Netflix, will see a way to stem these profits.

Elsonso · July 2020

Galwylin wrote: »

Billions of dollars in profits have created an image where video game players think of several companies as soulless unhealthy reaper of souls. Who put profits above all else. Not just their consumers health but we don't even think they put the quality of what they are selling above it

Yeah. Pretty much. I keep hearing about how expensive it is to make the games, but then if they don't spend that much, the product won't sell, and if they increase the prices, the product won't sell. Woe is the Game Studio. Then, they monetize the game with microtransactions.

Yet, what I receive is buggy.

I don't see where Crown Crates are actually helping the game be better. ESO is has a huge defect backlog and performance problems that have plagued this game for years. ESO customer support is slow. ToS enforcement is slow. My feeling is that if all this monetization that ZOS has put into the game was working for my benefit, these things would not be like they are today. Therefore, they must be working for someone else's benefit, or why bother doing it?

Kiralyn2000 · July 2020

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

See, I have no idea what "knowing the odds" would do for me.

It allows you to make an informed decision.

I've seen too many threads, on too many forums, from people complaining about RNG; that demonstrate that many many people have no understanding of statistics or randomness.

Telling people that something is a 1% chance (or .1, or .01) will not help the dumb people at all. They'll still open 100 boxes, and then yell "It's a 1 in 100 chance, I opened 100 boxes, where's my prize!?!?!?1"

Only knowing that it's a Really Really Low chance, or knowing that it's exactly a 0.359% chance, won't change a damn thing. Overconfident people will still buy boxes, and the rest of us who know that the odds are "You won't win" will continue to not buy boxes. Only difference is the people opening boxes will yell more about the stated numbers being a lie, the RNG being broken, etc.

"A fool and his money are soon parted" cares nothing for your Actual Odds.

...heck, even something like a 15-20% chance is hard for many people to grasp. They just don't get that it's still very easy to fail 10+ times at that roll. Let alone trying to understand what "I want that mid-tier costume. Getting a mid-tier card is a 20% chance, then getting that costume for the card is a 12% chance" really means.

edit: just to clarify - yes, I think loot boxes are a poor purchase, and the people who pay $ for them are dumb. I just don't think they're gambling, otherwise virtually every "random" thing in life that costs money is also gambling, and vast swathes of our consumer landscape would need to go poof. Like Kinder eggs. And Garbage Pail kids cards.