UK moves closer towards banning lootboxes

Tommy_The_Gun

I can not believe that some ppl here actually defend RNG loot boxes crap.... no words...

And before some one say: "Oh wait, the game has to earn money !"

They make [Snip] tons of money. From DLCs, Chapters, mounts... everything. Crown Store has so many things...

RNG loot box is simply an exploitative, greedy, cheese practise of game industry. What is stopping ZOS (and other game companies) from simply selling "stuff" in a virtual store vs stuff in RNG boxes ? Well I will tell you.
Game companies don't just want some money. They want all the money in the world. And even if they will somehow get it, then they will use term like "Selling below expectations" etc. So no wonder they do that. They can make 150x more cash from selling same thing.

They could just sell slightly more expensive stuff from the loot-boxes. But they don't because they prey on people with gambling issues. "I will just buy one more, I am sure this time it will drop".

No, it won't. It is exactly what they want you to do. Buy one (same) thing over & over 100x times.

So basically, what we are seeing here (not only in UK) is game industry going too far, being unable to self-regulate. Yeah, ESRB & PEGI were systems made by game industry, so no Government would regulate the level of violence, age limits etc for games. Those systems were made to maximize video game industry profits.
Now, that those system are unable (or unwilling) to regulate loot-boxes and gambling - we see governments in various countries starting to take an action.

Chaos2088

The gambling age in the UK is 18, you need to be 18 to play the game. I doubt that anything will change, just maybe have to update the terms of agreement wording. Thats it...

JTD

Here is an idea...

Put the items which are currently in a crate on the crown store for crowns. People who now buy the crates for an item will now buy the item.
Or even crazier, come up with a better way of making us spend extra money on the game. You're de developer of this game I am sure you can come up with something better than random stuff for money.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

Another thing I need to point out. I know people are hoping a regional ban will mean they can buy Crown Crate stuff for Crowns.

That won't happen. At best, the region would have that section removed. At worst, it'll all be there but you wouldn't be able to buy them yourself.

It also raises a question... What would the implications on gifting be?

Anyway, I very much suspect that ESO would be near unaffected. Two reasons I say this. One, it's already 18+, the legal age for gambling here. There is NOT any discussion at all to ban gambling in the UK. it is about regulation, which brings me to my second point. Over here, regulation is normally translated into the following = a new tax.

That's it. I very much doubt this is about people's wellbeing at all.

Whereis_Kyno

Also just so you know, the House of Lords said this and they have no power, just recommendations. With Brexit and Corona and so on I doubt the House of Commons who make decisions will pass it

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

Pessimists have a point, in not expecting regulations to change much, but there is hope. Even if they are not banned, I can see two meaningful changes that might make an impact...

Advertising drop rates: when someone sees there's only a single digit % chance to obtain the items they actually want, before purchasing? Chances are (teehee, chance, punny) they wont go for it. Sales will drop.

Advertisements/Game Covers showing purchases include chance: I myself would skip right over and buy the next game instead.

Crates might no get BANNED (not immediately anyway), but better awareness helps people make better choices, and it will have SOME impact. One can hope that humanity will get it right and abolish this disgusting practice but... *gestures at all the other corrupt things that are still standing in our society today*

The same issue lingers, though. Yes, it is advertised as 18+ but lets be honest... how often do you hear a kids voice on mic while playing? Every. Day. When will laws take into account that just because you're told its 18+ doesn't mean minors won't play. Its a pathetic protection companies hide behind, and they've been getting away with it for as long as 18+ games have been around. It hasn't been as big of an issue until gambling decided it wanted to be a gamer.

As I've said before, I used to work at a game store. All I had to do was ask the adult (not even the parent sometimes, trust me, you recognize your regulars, you just have to ask the adult that is present with the child) "Are you aware that some of these games are rated M for Mature?" Yes, it's a parenting fail when they let their young kids play something they otherwise should not, that's never not been in question. It doesn't change that fact that minors will be playing a game with gambling, then on the weekend they go to Chucky Cheeses and play "coin" machines, then play a mobile game on their way home with "surprise chests...." Where do we draw the line? This isn't even an issue with just minors in my opinion, but all of us are constantly exposed to companies pushing us to buy buy buy, treated like cattle, to be milked for someones profit. Ads are harassment now. Anyone heard of RAID SHADOW LEGENDS! When the new norm is Chance Purchases and things constantly being shoved in our face to buy.... sign me up to colonize the moon, at this point. Earth is no longer my cup of tea.

I cannot say enough. It matters not whether it resembles gambling or not, it is an extremely dishonest, greedy practice. We don't go to the grocery store and pay for a chance to get the right ingredients for a recipe. We don't go to our favorite clothing store for a mystery bag of clothing, that may or may not be our gender clothing, size, etc. And we especially don't drive to a store for a chance to buy the awesome product we just saw in a commercial. So why, WHY ON EARTH, should gaming purchases be any different?

Kiralyn2000

I look forward to what much-worse fallout comes from this stuff.

VaranisArano wrote: »

I dislike Crown Crates because it's bad for consumers to only get a chance at the item they want.

I've been doing things that gave me "only a chance at the item I want" since I was a kid in the 70's. From the capsule toy machines outside the grocery store, to baseball/art/movie cards, to random toy & hobby grab-bags, to boardwalk & amusement park games, to Magic card packs...

(meanwhile, I have never gambled - i.e, I've never placed a bet with anyone, nor have I played any casino games for $. My luck is terrible, I'd never do that.)

SlimeBro1

holden_caulfield wrote: »

I still don't understand all the hate.
We are surrounded by gambling service's. They are an important part of countries income.
In eso crates are FREE. yes free. Farm gold buy crowns and open your evil boxes.
What is that bother many of u so much?
Me? Never bought any crate. Actually if it wouldn't for this forum I forget they exist

Because they lock a lot of the best cosmetics behind crates which are sketchy to get.

If ESO had an official method to trade gold for crowns I'd give it more leniency. But people like to earn these cool things in game, not by gambling for them.

Coolits

JTD wrote: »

Here is an idea...

Put the items which are currently in a crate on the crown store for crowns. People who now buy the crates for an item will now buy the item.
Or even crazier, come up with a better way of making us spend extra money on the game. You're de developer of this game I am sure you can come up with something better than random stuff for money.

Here's a radical idea... why don't ZOS make the majority of the items earnable in-game if you sub like their competitors (WoW/FFXIV) and just put a select few items in the store for credits? It beats exploiting the player base.

idk

SlimeBro1 wrote: »

holden_caulfield wrote: »

I still don't understand all the hate.
We are surrounded by gambling service's. They are an important part of countries income.
In eso crates are FREE. yes free. Farm gold buy crowns and open your evil boxes.
What is that bother many of u so much?
Me? Never bought any crate. Actually if it wouldn't for this forum I forget they exist

Because they lock a lot of the best cosmetics behind crates which are sketchy to get.

If ESO had an official method to trade gold for crowns I'd give it more leniency. But people like to earn these cool things in game, not by gambling for them.

Gaming companies will not start putting the items as rewards in-game but fine another method to monetize them. That is if the crates are outright banned in major market areas. I do not think UK will mark that tipping point if the do an outright ban vs regulating.

Lapin_Logic

Pacrooti looks set for Redundancy.

The game already has a functional in game and out of game cash shop in both the "Crown Store" and the "Steam/Playstation/Xbox" Store respectively for DLC and Cosmetics, there was never a need for a gambling shop for "Cosmetics", they sell Houses for £100 worth of crowns and people buy them, I'm sure folk would shell out for "Radiant Apex" mounts if they were just sold in the store for crowns (or gold traded for crowns).

And before "It's Only Cosmetics bruh", well so is a Rebok/Adiddas/Gucci shirt, you don't go into a store and buy a random box that gives you Socks or a dress instead of a suit and watch, so there is no logical explanation why The crown store should have it, I for one don't view opening crates as enjoyment, i budget that i will get zero, zip, nada from it and will have to rack up enough gems for my purchase, the second argument of "But gambling is Fun" is impossible in this game because each season has a finite amount of rewards meaning that if you happened to unlock everything then there is literally nothing left in your gambling "mini game" where as in the real world you can gamble endlessly on Slot machines, poker, horse racing and pachinko but always have a chance to "Win Big* "
* Disclaimer, win big usually means win much less than you actually spent in long term outlay and if you are addicted to gambling will usually end up back in the pockets of whom you won it from.

TLDR = just sell the crate contents in the crown store.

Lapin_Logic

holden_caulfield wrote: »

In eso crates are FREE. yes free. Farm gold buy crowns and open your evil boxes.
What is that bother many of u so much?
Me? Never bought any crate. Actually if it wouldn't for this forum I forget they exist

If someone didn't spent any cash wither for ESO+ or for Crowns then they would not be available to be bought for gold, therefor they are not Free, they required your time to farm gold, they required someone to earn $£ to buy crowns.
your debate point falls flat.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

None of this would be an issue if they simply disclosed drop rates. Any regulated form of gambling (this is an unregulated form of gambling) has to display the odds. Seems insane to me that they don't. This is largely based on ignorance of our legislature. I called my congressmen about loot boxes a few years back. The nice lady I spoke to in his office had absolutely no concept of what I was talking about.

Dracane

I am sorry UK players. Zenimax will cease all service in the UK when this goes through and you will no longer be able to play the game.

kyle.wilson

I think that the changes would be more dire for free to play games that get the majority of their money from gambling boxes.
Games like fortnite that are targeted towards children could be especially hit hard.
I don't think it will affect ESO being that it is rated above the legal age to gamble in the UK.

thomas1970b16_ESO

The Biggest problem i have with lootboxes is That i Don’t get the odds. I still would prefer if they Were not there at all though.

Kiralyn2000

See, I have no idea what "knowing the odds" would do for me.

The odds of winning a "Big Prize"? Really Really Low.

Whether I know exactly how low or not doesn't matter; I'm not going to win it one way or the other. That's part of why I don't bother with the loot boxes in most games; and when I do open loot boxes? It's because I want the low & mid-range prizes, and only when I can get them with in-game-farmed resources.*

(In this game, I've never bought a crate. I opened plenty of free ones, back when they gave away real ones. I don't actually want 99% of the 'big prizes', I think the special mounts are ugly. Only thing I care about is the ~40cr returning costumes, and some of the 16 & 40cr accessories. And I've been able to buy the ones I've wanted with the gems I got from free crates. The game I've opened the most boxes in is Star Trek Online... which has a built-into-the-game Exchange for you to trade farmed daily-limited-currency for cash shop currency. Or you can buy box Keys on the auction house.)




* Actually, I've bought a handful of 'random packs' in a couple games. F2P games, that only sold those boxes, and I wanted to give them a little $ because I enjoyed their games. Like Fallout Shelter, I bought a few pet packs during an anniversary sale.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

I guess these are the most probable outcome
1. Nothing happen
2. Some law is passed but eso is unnafected due to it being 18+
3. Eso must follow some regulation like full disclosure of drop rate
4. They are banned

Also those would be contry based laws
The make point 4 and 5 only enforced in that specific country (i mean a law in uk as no legal power outside of uk as far as i know)
So zos could remove crate only for those in that specific country with ip adress with or without other way to optain x crate item(like direct crown purchase) thus potentially locking out uk player from optainig some item

or it could be server based only unbuyable on the eu server the again with or without alternative way of optainig those

Or complete removal of the crate, again with or without replacement
Sure i would like to be able to purchase some apex mount for crown but i doubt it will reach that side of the world soon

Kagukan

I have no self control. Please government, step in and save me from myself.

SgtPepperUK

JTD wrote: »

Here is an idea...

Put the items which are currently in a crate on the crown store for crowns. People who now buy the crates for an item will now buy the item.

Today I bought the Great Daenian Hound.

I intend to buy the Anthorbred Avalanche Dog, when it becomes available next week, and Ja'khajiit Raz when the Summerset event comes.

If these had been locked behind crates I simply would not bother, I'd hate missing out on these but I would move on.

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

I look forward to what much-worse fallout comes from this stuff.

I've been doing things that gave me "only a chance at the item I want" since I was a kid in the 70's. From the capsule toy machines outside the grocery store, to baseball/art/movie cards, to random toy & hobby grab-bags, to boardwalk & amusement park games, to Magic card packs...

(meanwhile, I have never gambled - i.e, I've never placed a bet with anyone, nor have I played any casino games for $. My luck is terrible, I'd never do that.)

Hate to break it to you...those capsule toys, baseball cards, MtG card packs etc? Yeah, they technically a form of gambling. A limited form in that you won't be left with nothing as such but the mechanics are the same, wagering money on an uncertain outcome.

I am intrigued, though, by the opening line of your post.

"I look forward to what much-worse fallout comes from this stuff."

It seems like you're hoping, if those of us who would rather not see gambling in videogames get our way, that we are punished or lose out in some way that makes us regret the removal of these nefarious forms of monetization. Is this what it has come to?

Avariprivateer

holden_caulfield wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

holden_caulfield wrote: »

I still don't understand all the hate.
We are surrounded by gambling service's. They are an important part of countries income.
In eso crates are FREE. yes free. Farm gold buy crowns and open your evil boxes.
What is that bother many of u so much?
Me? Never bought any crate. Actually if it wouldn't for this forum I forget they exist

They aren't free. Someone has to spend real money so you can get your chance at the item you want.

I dislike Crown Crates because it's bad for consumers to only get a chance at the item they want. But it's amazing for ZOS' profits, so it won't substantially change. ZOS will simply follow any new regulations and continue funneling new items into the Crown Crates.

That someone isn't U. And THAT someone could spend his entire income on whatever he wants. So that someone is doing what he likes and u get something for free.

What's your problem with that?

Loot Box related spending can morph into a form of problem or impulse gambling, which statistically leads to higher rates of suicide in humans.
https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-gambling-disorder-22015
excerpt
Although gambling problems may seem trivial on the surface, in reality, they are anything but. One of the reasons that gambling disorder has become recognized is because of the severe consequences for individuals and their families.

Not only do some people who develop gambling disorder literally gamble away everything they own, and end up in crippling debt, but far more of them become suicidal than would be expected in the general population.

In treatment populations, about half of those with gambling disorder have suicidal ideation, and about 18% have attempted suicide.


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/13/problem-gamblers-at-15-times-higher-risk-of-suicide-study-finds
https://knowtheodds.org/blog/problem-gambling-suicide-ideation/

Tyralbin

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

ESO is rated 18 right?

Gambling is legal for adults (or those over 16 in the UK) so I think although ZOS would need to adhere to stricter regulations it doesn't mean an end to loot boxes.

The only thing 16+ can gamble on is the lottery (though I think that may change soon). They are barred from all other forms of gambling.

Tyralbin

In regards to them getting banned in the UK I can't see this happening with our current government.

The report says stricter regulation (ie. taxes).

The casino industry in the UK pays 50% tax.

I can see this as the way this government will take things.

Now if a certain other party got in they would move to get them banned.

Tyralbin

holden_caulfield wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

holden_caulfield wrote: »

I still don't understand all the hate.
We are surrounded by gambling service's. They are an important part of countries income.
In eso crates are FREE. yes free. Farm gold buy crowns and open your evil boxes.
What is that bother many of u so much?
Me? Never bought any crate. Actually if it wouldn't for this forum I forget they exist

They aren't free. Someone has to spend real money so you can get your chance at the item you want.

I dislike Crown Crates because it's bad for consumers to only get a chance at the item they want. But it's amazing for ZOS' profits, so it won't substantially change. ZOS will simply follow any new regulations and continue funneling new items into the Crown Crates.

That someone isn't U. And THAT someone could spend his entire income on whatever he wants. So that someone is doing what he likes and u get something for free.

What's your problem with that?

This is all well and good if the person spending their money isn't addicted.

Gambling regulations in part exist to protect the vulnerable.

Casinos in the UK can lose their license if they allow known addicts or people that have self excluded to gamble.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

Kagukan wrote: »

I have no self control. Please government, step in and save me from myself.

Sadly, the human mind is very good at getting its priorities completely wrong. Gambling is addictive. Drugs are addictive. Drugs are made illegal by the government because people lose their self control when they become addicted. Addiction to gambling is very real, with loss of self control and personal ruin as possible outcomes. It is a very real problem for many people, and you can't simply dismiss that by being snarky. "Let the addicts kill themselves, why should we care" is not the position most human societies take, simply because anyone runs the risk of becoming an addict. It's how our minds work. Some people are less inclined to addiction than others, certainly, but nobody is immune.

Quite frankly, one of the reasons for having a government at all is for us to have a system to save us from ourselves, by imposing laws and regulations that stop us from acting on our first impulses in every situation.

Whether such intervention is needed in this particular case is another matter, and I don't know enough to have a well informed opinion on that.

Elsonso

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

None of this would be an issue if they simply disclosed drop rates.

https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/49828

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

I guess these are the most probable outcome
1. Nothing happen
2. Some law is passed but eso is unnafected due to it being 18+
3. Eso must follow some regulation like full disclosure of drop rate
4. They are banned

Relative to ESO, I doubt that number 4 will ever happen. Not "most probable", at all. For ESO, I think the probability exists only for 1 and 2.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Crown Crates were never a good thing for the game, it is obviously designed as a cash-grab and nothing more, have something else for players to spend real money on, maybe add more items to the crown store that people can buy at anytime instead of having these "Limited" time or super-rare drop items, they do not seem to grasp the fact people will be willingly to buy things for a high price if the purchase was guaranteed to get them the item they want, also regarding the prices of things, they also do not seem to grasp the fact that sometimes less is more and in a game like this that can go a long way.

Example, if something costs 4000 crowns how many will buy it? some people will buy it but not a lot now if that same item costed 2000 crowns then they may see more then twice as many purchases because more people were willing to spend money to get it (Because face it people do not want to overspend) and in the end more money would of been made.

Kiralyn2000

SgtPepperUK wrote: »

I am intrigued, though, by the opening line of your post.

"I look forward to what much-worse fallout comes from this stuff."

It seems like you're hoping, if those of us who would rather not see gambling in videogames get our way, that we are punished or lose out in some way that makes us regret the removal of these nefarious forms of monetization. Is this what it has come to?

No, that's not what I was trying to say. It was a sarcastic/cynical comment.

I'm assuming, if all this does come to some real "ban" result, that the inept lawmakers will draft something so vague and ill-defined, that it will be used by opportunist/troll lawyers to destroy virtually everything involving "random" (like CCG card packs, etc). And that, at the same time, in order to make up for the loss of revenue, the game companies will come up with something that ends up screwing us all over, worse.
(i.e, the end result, for everyone, will be worse than if it had been left alone.)

idk

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

None of this would be an issue if they simply disclosed drop rates. Any regulated form of gambling (this is an unregulated form of gambling) has to display the odds. Seems insane to me that they don't. This is largely based on ignorance of our legislature. I called my congressmen about loot boxes a few years back. The nice lady I spoke to in his office had absolutely no concept of what I was talking about.

While I expect the chances are there will be some sort of regulation, middle point, the issue also stems into children can play the game and it is pretty much illegal for children to gamble. That means one issue is how do they regulate it in a manner where a worth age check is performed? Yes, I know there are interest age-gate systems.

what_the

Avariprivateer wrote: »

holden_caulfield wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

holden_caulfield wrote: »

I still don't understand all the hate.
We are surrounded by gambling service's. They are an important part of countries income.
In eso crates are FREE. yes free. Farm gold buy crowns and open your evil boxes.
What is that bother many of u so much?
Me? Never bought any crate. Actually if it wouldn't for this forum I forget they exist

They aren't free. Someone has to spend real money so you can get your chance at the item you want.

I dislike Crown Crates because it's bad for consumers to only get a chance at the item they want. But it's amazing for ZOS' profits, so it won't substantially change. ZOS will simply follow any new regulations and continue funneling new items into the Crown Crates.

That someone isn't U. And THAT someone could spend his entire income on whatever he wants. So that someone is doing what he likes and u get something for free.

What's your problem with that?

Loot Box related spending can morph into a form of problem or impulse gambling, which statistically leads to higher rates of suicide in humans.
https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-gambling-disorder-22015
excerpt
Although gambling problems may seem trivial on the surface, in reality, they are anything but. One of the reasons that gambling disorder has become recognized is because of the severe consequences for individuals and their families.

Not only do some people who develop gambling disorder literally gamble away everything they own, and end up in crippling debt, but far more of them become suicidal than would be expected in the general population.

In treatment populations, about half of those with gambling disorder have suicidal ideation, and about 18% have attempted suicide.


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/13/problem-gamblers-at-15-times-higher-risk-of-suicide-study-finds
https://knowtheodds.org/blog/problem-gambling-suicide-ideation/

wow, then I guess it's a good thing buying crates isn't gambling.