[PVE] Why this game HATES melee builds?

Achronokey · July 2020

Nairinhe wrote: »

Gap closers do deal damage, but ok, what do you propose?

Btw, Stormreeve Neidir of Tempest Island tends to hurt when you are too far from her. I'm sure more experienced players could add some examples there ranged playstyle is harder than melee.

Proposal? I would like to see more mechanics in PVE which affect range builds, if rangers have less dmg but safer playstyle its a problem too. If ZOS put some effort and good thinking into challenging content they might just make life for range more difficult as well as more rewarding in term of DPS and effectiveness in group.

mairwen85 · July 2020

Achronokey wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

So all I'm saying is, stating the game HATES melee builds is a bit melodramatic and doesn't take anything into consideration other than your own problems you've encountered with it.

Wat?) Are u saying that only few experienced same melee hate? ESO content do punish melee more. Its fact. No matter what ur perception/subjective expireince is. Its just a fact. U gona argue with that?)

I'm saying 'hate' is a strong word to use and mostly hyperbolic in this case; even more so when put under scrutiny and viewed against the entire scope of things. I'd hardly call that subjective--narrowly focusing one tiny thing and ignoring all counterpoint and opinions that differ however...

Achronokey wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

Gap closers do deal damage, but ok, what do you propose?

Btw, Stormreeve Neidir of Tempest Island tends to hurt when you are too far from her. I'm sure more experienced players could add some examples there ranged playstyle is harder than melee.

Proposal? I would like to see more mechanics in PVE which affect range builds, if rangers have less dmg but safer playstyle its a problem too. If ZOS put some effort and good thinking into challenging content they might just make life for range more difficult as well as more rewarding in term of DPS and effectiveness in group.

Try playing ranged and see if your statement holds water. Oh, that's right, you don't need to because you know what you're saying is objectively true.

Achronokey · July 2020

Nairinhe wrote: »

Achronokey wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

So all I'm saying is, stating the game HATES melee builds is a bit melodramatic and doesn't take anything into consideration other than your own problems you've encountered with it.

Wat?) Are u saying that only few experienced same melee hate? ESO content do punish melee more. Its fact. No matter what ur perception/subjective expireince is. Its just a fact. U gona argue with that?)

That's not a fact, that's your subjective perception.

Ok bro. U wana start it do u? DO U REALY WANA DO THAT?
i can observe all dungeon and trials. Ill tell u exactly how much mechanics punish melee more.

On ur shoulder will be examination of punishable for range mechanics.

Okay?

mairwen85 · July 2020

Achronokey wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

Achronokey wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

So all I'm saying is, stating the game HATES melee builds is a bit melodramatic and doesn't take anything into consideration other than your own problems you've encountered with it.

Wat?) Are u saying that only few experienced same melee hate? ESO content do punish melee more. Its fact. No matter what ur perception/subjective expireince is. Its just a fact. U gona argue with that?)

That's not a fact, that's your subjective perception.

Ok bro. U wana start it do u? DO U REALY WANA DO THAT?
i can observe all dungeon and trials. Ill tell u exactly how much mechanics punish melee more.

On ur shoulder will be examination of punishable for range mechanics.

Okay?

You're getting a bit heated and going on the offensive. There's no need for that. No one is denying that melee has it slightly rougher than ranged, nor refuting that playing melee is a bit more intense, it goes without saying that would be the case. It actually makes perfect sense that it is the case. But it is compensated for in most melee builds and indeed the play-style in itself, that is the counterpoint-- risk vs reward. There are mechanics that punish ranged, and in fact, you would expect your ranged dps to deal with environmental mechanics so that melee can stay in the fight. There are also plenty of mechanics that effect everyone equally, but in melee range you are right up in the face of danger... why shouldn't that provide greater risk?

Nairinhe · July 2020

Achronokey wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

Achronokey wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

So all I'm saying is, stating the game HATES melee builds is a bit melodramatic and doesn't take anything into consideration other than your own problems you've encountered with it.

Wat?) Are u saying that only few experienced same melee hate? ESO content do punish melee more. Its fact. No matter what ur perception/subjective expireince is. Its just a fact. U gona argue with that?)

That's not a fact, that's your subjective perception.

Ok bro. U wana start it do u? DO U REALY WANA DO THAT?
i can observe all dungeon and trials. Ill tell u exactly how much mechanics punish melee more.

On ur shoulder will be examination of punishable for range mechanics.

Okay?

I'm not your bro, mate, and burden of proof is on you if you make a claim. Comprehensive list of all the mechanics with analysis on which playstyle they punish more.

Achronokey · July 2020

mairwen85 wrote: »

I'm saying 'hate' is a strong word to use and mostly hyperbolic in this case; even more so when put under scrutiny and viewed against the entire scope of things. I'd hardly call that subjective--narrowly focusing one tiny thing and ignoring all counterpoint and opinions that differ however...

It is hyperbolic. It was meant to be hyperbolic. I used hyperbolization to spice thing up and draw some more attention to the problem. Looking at u its worked.

All u can say its " yeah there is a problem but i would not call it HATE and melee benefits in other ways" im i right,or im i right?

mairwen85 · July 2020

Achronokey wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

I'm saying 'hate' is a strong word to use and mostly hyperbolic in this case; even more so when put under scrutiny and viewed against the entire scope of things. I'd hardly call that subjective--narrowly focusing one tiny thing and ignoring all counterpoint and opinions that differ however...

It is hyperbolic. It was meant to be hyperbolic. I used hyperbolization to spice thing up and draw some more attention to the problem. Looking at u its worked.

All u can say its " yeah there is a problem but i would not call it HATE and melee benefits in other ways" im i right,or im i right?

No, I'm saying there is no problem because there is adequate recompense if you know how to play the game.

[edited to preemptively remove perceived baiting]

Achronokey · July 2020

Ratinira wrote: »

It punishes everyone.
So it hates everyone.
Just accept it😆

Now we getting somewhere! Embrace the hatred pity humans!

kathandira · July 2020

Achronokey wrote: »

Hello! Swift introduction over here: im mediocre pve player since vanila WoW, im mostly play as tank/melee dd. I have experienced almost all WoW addons, also played some Lineage, Aion etc. Im also PVP tryhard, ever since DoTa 1 & WoW arenas/bg's those 2 were newbie experience for me and i never reached any good MMR there but when i switched to another MOBA game (HotS) i managed to climb to the top of the ladder and hold there for 3 years(until game died about year ago) What im trying to say is that ive seen lots of content (both pve and pvp) and when u play many hours u start to question why thing go that way but not another.

Many games have same issue - bosses and trash deliver more troubles for melee then range, but.... i never experienced such a "wonderful" melee pve experience as i did in ESO. Vast majority of player dont really think about it more then 3 seconds "oh well i have to move around and avoid red circles " but if u take ur time to compare melee vs range combat many question will rise. Im saying it now to avoid misunderstanding: no i dont want to handicap/nerf range build or buff/make ez for melee builds, im simply saying that range's should face equal problems in combat. Lets take for example usual dungeon, no harsh mechanics - Crypt of Hearts I

1 Archmaster Siniel.
When boss cast fear u run away and have to go back to attack him, if u melee its waste of dps, if ,however, u are range u just continue to dps and move a little bit closer to boss.
When boss creates red pool u need to relocate urself, if so happens near boss( well u know for melee) tank sometimes need to pull boss out of it.

2 Death’s Leviathan.
When boss cast stun aoe u need to either block or run away from it, in phase 1 its no difference but as phase 2 begins this aoe will knock u down no matter block ur or not. Take a guess who suffers from this more.
When boss charge in a straight line range characters have more time to react they also dont lose any dps while doing so.

3 Uulkar Bonehand.

Boss spams a lots of aoe and just so happens they cover almost all space near him, so as melee u either need to run and waste dps or stand in some of red circles and pray to ur healer.

4 Dogas the Berserker

This boss actually poses the power to irrate any build, but he so squishy it feels like a joke. keep in mind this is first and only boss who provides equal threat to ranges and melee

5 Ilambris-Zaven & Ilambris-Athor

Well i think uve noticed the pattern already, lots of aoe in melee zone, some in range.

Is that okay?

It used to be much easier to have higher damage output as melee than ranged for the non-meta players. You would often see Melee running around with 5,000 Weapon Damage and 60% crit, while Casters would be sitting at 3000 Spell Damage and 50% Crit. On paper, it looks like it would balance out with melee having to be more aware of their surroundings, but dealing a bit more damage.

But over the years, what is seen on paper became less and less true. There were times when melee would shine and be on top, but for the most part, Casters reign king of DPS. Not just because of their damage, but also their access to Heals, Shields, and being able to use Stam to break free, roll dodge, or block without taking away their primary resource to do so.

And now....Thrassian Stranglers being thrown in the mix without a Stam equivalent, just put Stam melee at the bottom of the barrel in potential DPS. Yes, they make you much more squishy, but in Dungeons and Normal Trials, it is VERY easy to stay alive while using them. Vet Trials, not so much. But if you consider Vet Trials is a small percentage of available Group PvE content, Stranglers have really shifted the scales towards Casters this patch.

Athyrium93 · July 2020

Something no one else has mentioned, most bosses have huge hit boxes and your 3-5m range on melee skills plus the huge hit boxes means melee doesn't have to be up the bosses butt. You can avoid 50%+ close range boss aoe just by taking a step back and still hit the boss.
You don't see mag players complaining that a lot of fights force you close to the boss because of space/platforms in their squishy light armour.

This is an issue in a lot of starter dungeons with new players, the tank I play with complains about this all the time, new melee players thinking they have to be inside the boss to hit them which means they are right in his face spamming flashy skills so he can't see the mechanics.

Take your example of crypt of hearts, the final boss has room for one ranged player to stand outside the aoe range, that player is the healer. Mag dps just has to move/block just like the melee dps but without the benefit of medium armour and a huge stam pool. Still they don't complain, they either deal with it by following mechanics, trust the healer, or slot a heal or shield.

Achronokey · July 2020

Athyrium93 wrote: »

Something no one else has mentioned, most bosses have huge hit boxes and your 3-5m range on melee skills plus the huge hit boxes means melee doesn't have to be up the bosses butt. You can avoid 50%+ close range boss aoe just by taking a step back and still hit the boss.

Intresting. But it does not solve the problem just makes it less anoying.

You don't see mag players complaining that a lot of fights force you close to the boss because of space/platforms in their squishy light armour.

I wonder why

Mag dps just has to move/block just like the melee dps but without the benefit of medium armour and a huge stam pool.

First of all not mag, range. Second - Ranges dont need huge stam pool, they dont have to spam roll or block. U also seems to forget 1 thing: stam users SPEND they stamina TO ATTACK.

mairwen85 · July 2020

Achronokey wrote: »

First of all not mag, range. Second - Ranges dont need huge stam pool, they dont have to spam roll or block. U also seems to forget 1 thing: stam users SPEND they stamina TO ATTACK.

Except, of course, that your damage scales off max resource. If you're ranged stam, you still need a high resource pool, and at range you still need to block and dodge, and sometimes even bash. Mag forgoes defensive options because they need a high mag pool for dispensing damage. That doesn't mean mag at range doesn't still need defensive capability, hence shields as a solution.

Back on track, melee range (whether stam or mag) you're in harms way; that's a position you put yourself in with eyes wide open accepting of the risk and in knowledge that you're probably going to have a bit more footwork to do. The further from the fight you are, the safer you're going to be--aside from bosses that leap at or trigger mech on whoever is furthest away. This isn't particularly biased on any play style with any intent to punish, but a logical way the battle would pan out. I'd expect any player, primarily ranged or melee to know when to fall back to safety or move in closer. That is also a logical way for your combat to pan out. As others have said, there are boss fights that give you little space to move at range, and fights that favour either position. There are sets that force casters into melee range, and sets that allow you to keep greater distance. The point is, this is group content and whatever role or placement you put yourself in, you have to work with the team to achieve the best results with your chosen class and spec-- positional awareness is, believe it or not, an important part of playing this game well. Ultimately, it's an equal breakdown and team effort, and if the risk is too great for you personally, well, that's your choice to continue or try something else.

PizzaCat82 · July 2020

Most bossfigths do close up damage. If you have a tank then ranged attacks are laughably easy to dodge.

If it wasn't for PVP there'd really be no use for stamina melee builds other than to tank.

Achronokey · July 2020

mairwen85 wrote: »

Achronokey wrote: »

First of all not mag, range. Second - Ranges dont need huge stam pool, they dont have to spam roll or block. U also seems to forget 1 thing: stam users SPEND they stamina TO ATTACK.

Except, of course, that your damage scales off max resource. If you're ranged stam, you still need a high resource pool, and at range you still need to block and dodge, and sometimes even bash. Mag forgoes defensive options because they need a high mag pool for dispensing damage. That doesn't mean mag at range doesn't still need defensive capability, hence shields as a solution.

Back on track, melee range (whether stam or mag) you're in harms way; that's a position you put yourself in with eyes wide open accepting of the risk and in knowledge that you're probably going to have a bit more footwork to do. The further from the fight you are, the safer you're going to be--aside from bosses that leap at or trigger mech on whoever is furthest away. This isn't particularly biased on any play style with any intent to punish, but a logical way the battle would pan out. I'd expect any player, primarily ranged or melee to know when to fall back to safety or move in closer. That is also a logical way for your combat to pan out. As others have said, there are boss fights that give you little space to move at range, and fights that favour either position. There are sets that force casters into melee range, and sets that allow you to keep greater distance. The point is, this is group content and whatever role or placement you put yourself in, you have to work with the team to achieve the best results with your chosen class and spec-- positional awareness is, believe it or not, an important part of playing this game well. Ultimately, it's an equal breakdown and team effort, and if the risk is too great for you personally, well, that's your choice to continue or try something else.

Dude, u being reactive instead of proactive. U just told me to adapt to current game status instead of proposing some changes.

U dont even begin to understund how deep the problem is. If melee build suffer more from red circles and etc they less efective. If its compensated by more dmg output - now ranges are less effective because in right hands melee dd's do more dmg and can survive.

Gundug · July 2020

I didn’t read through every post, but as someone who primarily solos dungeons and other more difficult content with 90% melee range stamina characters, I find them in no worse spot than ranged magicka types. In fact, there are mechanics in many dungeons and trials that punish players who keep to a farther distance. Learn the mechanics and how to avoid them, and you will have no issues.

mairwen85 · July 2020

Achronokey wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Achronokey wrote: »

First of all not mag, range. Second - Ranges dont need huge stam pool, they dont have to spam roll or block. U also seems to forget 1 thing: stam users SPEND they stamina TO ATTACK.

Except, of course, that your damage scales off max resource. If you're ranged stam, you still need a high resource pool, and at range you still need to block and dodge, and sometimes even bash. Mag forgoes defensive options because they need a high mag pool for dispensing damage. That doesn't mean mag at range doesn't still need defensive capability, hence shields as a solution.

Back on track, melee range (whether stam or mag) you're in harms way; that's a position you put yourself in with eyes wide open accepting of the risk and in knowledge that you're probably going to have a bit more footwork to do. The further from the fight you are, the safer you're going to be--aside from bosses that leap at or trigger mech on whoever is furthest away. This isn't particularly biased on any play style with any intent to punish, but a logical way the battle would pan out. I'd expect any player, primarily ranged or melee to know when to fall back to safety or move in closer. That is also a logical way for your combat to pan out. As others have said, there are boss fights that give you little space to move at range, and fights that favour either position. There are sets that force casters into melee range, and sets that allow you to keep greater distance. The point is, this is group content and whatever role or placement you put yourself in, you have to work with the team to achieve the best results with your chosen class and spec-- positional awareness is, believe it or not, an important part of playing this game well. Ultimately, it's an equal breakdown and team effort, and if the risk is too great for you personally, well, that's your choice to continue or try something else.

Dude, u being reactive instead of proactive. U just told me to adapt to current game status instead of proposing some changes.

U dont even begin to understund how deep the problem is. If melee build suffer more from red circles and etc they less efective. If its compensated by more dmg output - now ranges are less effective because in right hands melee dd's do more dmg and can survive.

I think the fundamental issue here is not that I don't understand the depth of the problem, but rather that I don't believe there is one. You can play just as effectively as ranged dps as melee dps, and often times you will be required to move in and out of either range, and even encounter fights that require you to be in either regardless of spec. Effectiveness in your role is down to the player, not depending on where you stand, albeit that a decent player will know where to stand and when. Being proactive in this case would be learning the mech up front so you know what telegraphs to look out for and how to follow mechanics properly. Regardless, this is a circular conversation now and I really don't see what you hope to achieve other than asking for yet more mechanics on-top of what we already have. If more complex and gruelling mech is what you want, every new DLC has an abundance of those, the content as provided is something of a progressive ladder of difficulty that ranges from incredibly simple to much more intensive, and as you climb that ladder, more is expected of you as a player in terms of group cohesion and positioning, and general understanding of the mechanics at play.

Mettaricana · July 2020

Have had absolutely no problem with any of those bosses in the 6 years of stam main use... are you certain you're playing the character right like trying to wow melee it vs eso melee it? Eso melee is alot of foot work vs most games like wow where you just stand there auto attacking while pressing hotkey chain 1 or 2 while the tank gets ass whooped on?

idk · July 2020

Melee builds always have a higher risk as they are closer to the action. In ESO that is compounded by our need to be very reactive to incoming damage for survival regardless of our range to the boss. I would suggest anyone who is finding melee to be a little challenged to try ranged until they get used to the combat mechanics of this game or new fights in this game.

SidraWillowsky · July 2020

Er.... since I've started playing (~2 years ago), the PvE DD meta has almost always been a melee build. Stamblade was top DPS when I first started playing, then stamsorc had a (very) brief moment in the sun, then Elsweyr hit and no one wanted to see anything but stamcros in trials. MagDKs were at the top of the DD pile for, like, one quarter, and only in the past few months has the meta shifted to favor ranged builds.

This "problem" is very new and not endemic to melee builds- the pendulum swings wildly between melee builds being miles ahead of ranged builds and vice versa. ZOS can't seem to balance things so that both builds perform equally well (IMO that means having similar DPS potential between ranged and melee, though with melee a little bit higher and easier and ranged a bit more difficult to achieve the highest DPS).

ZOS_Lunar · July 2020

Greetings!
We've removed several post from this thread for violating our rules on bashing and baiting. While we completely understand everyone has their own opinions, thoughts, feelings and even frustrations, we want the forums to be a civil and constructive platform for the game and it's community as a whole. Thank you for your understanding, and please keep the Community Rules in mind when posting on the forums.

Lannharr · July 2020

Elwendryll wrote: »

I play stamsorc in melee (endgame). I don't really fall behind in damage, sometimes being in the top (we never have more than 2 stams in the trial, sometimes I'm the only one). But with stranglers and blood for blood I can't even compete this patch.

That's the only thing I can complain about, I want a cool mythic item too. I feel safer playing stam. Some fights force your group to spread. But being stam I have priority on the melee spot so it turns out fine.

+1

lolo_01b16_ESO · July 2020

A few more things to consider when comparing ranged and melee:
- A lot of healing and buff skills are ground targeted or cone / wall shaped, so if you stand close to the tank or inbetween healer and tank, you get their benefit way more often than when you are standing far away.
- Most raids have mechanics that target the people that stand the furthest away from the boss.

So as a result, at least in my guild most people prefer to play melee builds.

El_Borracho · July 2020

Don't tell my stam necro. He hits like a truck. And, believe it or not, he has defeated veteran Crypt of Hearts 1 many, many times. Without dying, no less. Just like his cousins, the stamblade and stam DK before him.

Everest_Lionheart · July 2020

I DPS on both stam and mag builds with the caveat being I’m still in melee range no matter which toon I am playing. Non vamp on the mag toons as well where sustain can be tricky but with spamable that returns health because I also solo 4 man dungeons a lot.

I actually prefer my stamwarden at the moment though my MagDK is growing on me. My magplar is more for maelstrom and Dragonstar so I will leave his comparisons off this post.

Anyway the stamwarden has zero sustain issues. I can stand there and parse on the back off a boss all day long, dancing around mechanics with generally very little problems. Nobody freaks over damage output and numbers so long as the mechanics are dealt with and the battle is won. I’m usually on bash duty so I stay up really tight at all times and avoid the AOE circles when I can. Annoying adds where you have to get off the boss and kill right away that spawn across the room like in cloudrest I can sprint to those as they pop up while the rest of the team parses away and deal with that stuff, or go collect the orbs. I’ve got an interesting combo of high enough health and strong self heals that I can survive most of the normal DPS one shots. In short I’ve built for this style intentionally. I prefer the mobility and never having to watch my stamina bar so I can focus on fighting. It also helps that I can quickly run out on rez duty when needed.

Now my MagDK. This build has a much higher ceiling for DPS output but it’s super squishy because it needs to be in melee range. I spend a lot of time managing my stamina pool because as I mentioned at the top I am non vamp, so I have to compensate in other areas. The build is less mobility and more utility, and because I have to watch more things at once I have to play more methodical compared to stamwarden where I can basically press all the buttons without impunity. The play style is a lot more smooth even with all the rss management, but it has to be or else you’ll either end up standing around being useless or lay dead on the ground (also useless!)

Now for solo play both are extremely fun and have their pitfalls. On the stamwarden I’ve got shields and heals to bail me out of some hairy situations. MagDK I’ve got one skill that returns health provided I have managed my rss properly, though I must admit I’m really solid at heavy atk weaving and use a skill that buffs heavy attacks so the compensation is somewhat minimal but channeling those heavy attacks can be risky when running 4 man dungeons solo because of mechanics. But those same mechanics when blocked, dodged or times perfectly give you the opening you need to recover rss as well. It’s a whole lot more cerebral (as a mag class should be) when compared to stam.

On the stam toon it’s a lot more reactive in general. See red, get out of red. See adds, AOE the adds, see boss channel skill interrupt the skill. Lots of seeing and lots of doing. But again still little to no issue with the rss pool. I can also back out to range with my bow and heal/heavy atk to recover but have to be aware of certain mechanics there as well.

All in all as a low-mid tier endgame player I find it all boils down to play style. And some nights I prefer one toon over the other. What little difference there is and the DPS itself doesn’t seem to matter much to the trial groups I run with so long as the bosses die and we win.

AlnilamE · July 2020

I don't know, OP. I personally favour ranged builds (magblade and magsorc), but I have to admit that my melee builds (stamplar, stamden and magplar) are far more powerful and survivable and right now I'm hesitating taking my magblade into some dungeons she needs achievements for because I feel like she can't pull her weight the same way my stamplar can.

Meanwhile, there are a number of bosses in dungeons that do target ranged builds, or are agnostic. Off the top of my head:

Spindleclutch I: The spider boss will jump to the player furthest away from her, ignoring taunt.

Banished Cells I: Shadowrend will jump to players that are more than 10m away from him, so if you have a ranged build in the group, they have to stack or mess up the fight.

Fungal Grotto II: The Spawn of Mephala: The ranged build has to take care of the portal spiders because the fight should be placed on the opposite end of the room from the portal to minimize the beam.

There are also many fights that will target a random player, regardless of whether they are melee or ranged:

Crypt of Hearts II: Nerien'eth will teleport to a random player and start a huge AoE and you have to run out of it because dodging will not get you far enough. His skull attack is also random, and the lich crystals cover enough of the room that ranged players have to run around to avoid them.

Banished Cells I and II: High Kinlord Rillis doesn't care if you are ranged or melee when he casts the fire AoE on you.

Fungal Grotto II: Gamyne Bandu. She doesn't care if you are ranged of melee either.

Vaults of Madness: The Architect takes turns with an AoE close to him and a Shield that protects you, so you have to dance in and out.

That, again, is just what I can remember off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more mechanics like that in the game.

Athyrium93 · July 2020

Achronokey wrote: »

Athyrium93 wrote: »

Something no one else has mentioned, most bosses have huge hit boxes and your 3-5m range on melee skills plus the huge hit boxes means melee doesn't have to be up the bosses butt. You can avoid 50%+ close range boss aoe just by taking a step back and still hit the boss.

Intresting. But it does not solve the problem just makes it less anoying.

You don't see mag players complaining that a lot of fights force you close to the boss because of space/platforms in their squishy light armour.

I wonder why

Mag dps just has to move/block just like the melee dps but without the benefit of medium armour and a huge stam pool.

First of all not mag, range. Second - Ranges dont need huge stam pool, they dont have to spam roll or block. U also seems to forget 1 thing: stam users SPEND they stamina TO ATTACK.

Dude I play a melee magplar as my main, my stam pool is tiny, like 2 roll dodges empty it with nothing in reserve for blocks. My favorite alt is stam and I never run out, ever, I haven't once ran out in combat, if your having issues running out of stam in melee you need a better group that's dropping synergys or to add some sustain.

If your having issues with taking to much damage take a look at your CP and practice moving in combat. You shouldn't have to burn stam to avoid most mechanics, most things can just be side stepped.

***side note I should have been more specific between melee mag, range mag, and stam as whole, but I'd just woke up and hadn't had a coffee yet***

SidraWillowsky · July 2020

Athyrium93 wrote: »

Achronokey wrote: »

Athyrium93 wrote: »

Something no one else has mentioned, most bosses have huge hit boxes and your 3-5m range on melee skills plus the huge hit boxes means melee doesn't have to be up the bosses butt. You can avoid 50%+ close range boss aoe just by taking a step back and still hit the boss.

Intresting. But it does not solve the problem just makes it less anoying.

You don't see mag players complaining that a lot of fights force you close to the boss because of space/platforms in their squishy light armour.

I wonder why

Mag dps just has to move/block just like the melee dps but without the benefit of medium armour and a huge stam pool.

First of all not mag, range. Second - Ranges dont need huge stam pool, they dont have to spam roll or block. U also seems to forget 1 thing: stam users SPEND they stamina TO ATTACK.

Dude I play a melee magplar as my main, my stam pool is tiny, like 2 roll dodges empty it with nothing in reserve for blocks. My favorite alt is stam and I never run out, ever, I haven't once ran out in combat, if your having issues running out of stam in melee you need a better group that's dropping synergys or to add some sustain.

If your having issues with taking to much damage take a look at your CP and practice moving in combat. You shouldn't have to burn stam to avoid most mechanics, most things can just be side stepped.

***side note I should have been more specific between melee mag, range mag, and stam as whole, but I'd just woke up and hadn't had a coffee yet***

Yep, my stam DDs (Bosmer) never have issues with stam, even with dodging and running. The game devs realize that stam-based characters use stam for both blocking/dodging/whatever and attacks and account for that.

Then there's my Breton Magplar who wears False Gods and STILL has terrible sustain. Heavy attacks have to be part of the rotation. Mag sustain in this game is atrocious for some classes.

pod88kk · July 2020

You lost me at WoW

Everest_Lionheart · July 2020

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Athyrium93 wrote: »

Achronokey wrote: »

Athyrium93 wrote: »

Something no one else has mentioned, most bosses have huge hit boxes and your 3-5m range on melee skills plus the huge hit boxes means melee doesn't have to be up the bosses butt. You can avoid 50%+ close range boss aoe just by taking a step back and still hit the boss.

Intresting. But it does not solve the problem just makes it less anoying.

You don't see mag players complaining that a lot of fights force you close to the boss because of space/platforms in their squishy light armour.

I wonder why

Mag dps just has to move/block just like the melee dps but without the benefit of medium armour and a huge stam pool.

First of all not mag, range. Second - Ranges dont need huge stam pool, they dont have to spam roll or block. U also seems to forget 1 thing: stam users SPEND they stamina TO ATTACK.

Dude I play a melee magplar as my main, my stam pool is tiny, like 2 roll dodges empty it with nothing in reserve for blocks. My favorite alt is stam and I never run out, ever, I haven't once ran out in combat, if your having issues running out of stam in melee you need a better group that's dropping synergys or to add some sustain.

If your having issues with taking to much damage take a look at your CP and practice moving in combat. You shouldn't have to burn stam to avoid most mechanics, most things can just be side stepped.

***side note I should have been more specific between melee mag, range mag, and stam as whole, but I'd just woke up and hadn't had a coffee yet***

Yep, my stam DDs (Bosmer) never have issues with stam, even with dodging and running. The game devs realize that stam-based characters use stam for both blocking/dodging/whatever and attacks and account for that.

Then there's my Breton Magplar who wears False Gods and STILL has terrible sustain. Heavy attacks have to be part of the rotation. Mag sustain in this game is atrocious for some classes.

My stamwarden is like your bosmer, stamina for days, near endless supply of it.

My MagDK (and magplar) both Altmer by the way have the same issue as your magplar, but I understand why the sustain is the way it is. I wish sustain was easier but if it was everyone would play mag toons because they would outclass stamina DPS by a mile. If I was able to slide 2-3 more spamables in my rotation my DPS would make a huge jump. BFB would probably become less used as well because mag could achieve better numbers with class skills alone.

Muizer · July 2020

IMHO to make a fair comparison between 'melee vs ranged', you have to compare bow vs melee (both stamina).

Personally I come across quite a few boss fights that are a lot easier to tackle at range with a bow and I can think of 3 rather obvious reasons why:

1) the further out you are, the more time you have to respond to incoming damage
2) the further out you are, the more chance you have to move outside of any boss centered AOE's
2) the further out you are, the less likely you are to find yourself in the path of outward radiating AOE's.

Some suggestions to balance this could be to make it possible to escape boss centered AOE's by moving in close and to make radiating AOEs grow with distance traveled such that the chance of being in the path of one stays the same.

Just some ideas, but I admit I'm not an avid end game PVE player. The moment someone says 'you got to know the mechanics' is the moment I think 'if that's the case, it's lousy game design'.