[PVE] Why this game HATES melee builds?

Achronokey

Hello! Swift introduction over here: im mediocre pve player since vanila WoW, im mostly play as tank/melee dd. I have experienced almost all WoW addons, also played some Lineage, Aion etc. Im also PVP tryhard, ever since DoTa 1 & WoW arenas/bg's those 2 were newbie experience for me and i never reached any good MMR there but when i switched to another MOBA game (HotS) i managed to climb to the top of the ladder and hold there for 3 years(until game died about year ago) What im trying to say is that ive seen lots of content (both pve and pvp) and when u play many hours u start to question why thing go that way but not another.

ZOS could do more mechanics to annoy range builds.

Many games have same issue - bosses and trash deliver more troubles for melee then range, but.... i never experienced such a "wonderful" melee pve experience as i did in ESO. Vast majority of player dont really think about it more then 3 seconds "oh well i have to move around and avoid red circles " but if u take ur time to compare melee vs range combat many question will rise. Im saying it now to avoid misunderstanding: no i dont want to handicap/nerf range build or buff/make ez for melee builds, im simply saying that range's should face equal problems in combat. Lets take for example usual dungeon, no harsh mechanics - Crypt of Hearts I

1 Archmaster Siniel.
When boss cast fear u run away and have to go back to attack him, if u melee its waste of dps, if ,however, u are range u just continue to dps and move a little bit closer to boss.
When boss creates red pool u need to relocate urself, if so happens near boss( well u know for melee) tank sometimes need to pull boss out of it.

2 Death’s Leviathan.
When boss cast stun aoe u need to either block or run away from it, in phase 1 its no difference but as phase 2 begins this aoe will knock u down no matter block ur or not. Take a guess who suffers from this more.
When boss charge in a straight line range characters have more time to react they also dont lose any dps while doing so.

3 Uulkar Bonehand.

Boss spams a lots of aoe and just so happens they cover almost all space near him, so as melee u either need to run and waste dps or stand in some of red circles and pray to ur healer.

4 Dogas the Berserker

This boss actually poses the power to irrate any build, but he so squishy it feels like a joke. keep in mind this is first and only boss who provides equal threat to ranges and melee

5 Ilambris-Zaven & Ilambris-Athor

Well i think uve noticed the pattern already, lots of aoe in melee zone, some in range.

Is that okay?

**********Edit**********
im placing it here because i know for fact - some people dont read all comments just the first few. To avoid answering same questions over again:

Some players said there is more like a L2P issue rather then in-game flaw. Its still an issue tho, if melee players forced to a deeper learning curve why bother with em if u can just pew pew at range?

Also been said that melee build benefits on other ways, this is when the fun begins because:
1 If melee build do have more dmg in order to equalize em with range, then at hi end PVE content, or for player who seek optimal DD build range would seems less attractive coz u want to do as much dmg as possible even if it means harder playstyle
2 If melee build dont have more dmg but "balanced" via higher survive/mobility... well i dont rly take that argument because ranges just dont need more mitigation/selfhealf because they simple getting less dmg over fight. So the only benefin of melee having survive/mobility its to deal with problems ranges do not face in a 1 place.

Some seems to agree with me and asking what my proposals. Its simple - ZOS could do more mechanics to annoy range builds.

Some noticed there is more like risk vs reward thing. Well, about that:
Idea of buffing melee builds in order to deal with current mechanics would just cause them being MORE favorable for experienced/skilled players. Its just the other side of the problem. If melee more effective, why play range?

Niaver

Wait until you get to vet trials More serious groups won't probably even consider inviting you on a stam character.

Kadoin

Artificial difficulty...

mairwen85

Sorry, but

Why this game HATES melee builds

That's a good one. [snip] Stam have greater mobility, higher dps output, and lower cost (better RoI), the reason being it is a greater risk play style. Mag is safer at range, so higher cost skills with lower damage output (worse RoI). Mag has to layer more DoTs and often have more complex rotations with more skills and bar swaps; stam has simpler more flurry/spam oriented rotations because of mobility. Stam as higher mitigation because all medium vs lower mitigation next to nothing defence of mag. What you are describing is the fundamental criteria that determines choice of playstyle.

Additionally, there is a wider variety of gear available for stam instead of the lacklustre base game set that is bis for all mag and a tweaked out crafted set passing for a trial set.

Niaver wrote: »

Wait until you get to vet trials More serious groups won't probably even consider inviting you on a stam character.

Yeah because for 2 patches mag gets some love, right. Let's forget how it was only 8+ months ago.

[edited for baiting]

Kurat

[snip]
Stam dps uses medium armor. So you already get more damage mitigation. Also you got large stam pool to dodge, block etc. Stam toons can as a rule pull more dps on dummy. There are better sets available to them than mag toons have, like Rele, Lokke, AY etc.
And in most trials group stacks anyways.

[edited for baiting]

lolo_01b16_ESO

It's kind of a risk vs reward thing. Playing ranged is easier, especially if you have a random group and are not familiar with the fight. But being melee will usually get you higher dps numbers as soon as you know how all mechanics work and have a group that is working together.
In raids you usually want as many players as possible to stay in melee range.

Sanguinor2

I just want to comment on your examples:
1. Just break free of the fear early. There, still in melee range.
2. Both range and melee need to recast their ground AoEs at that point, the range of the stomp is big enough that in phase 2 most ranged builds get hit too since you want to get buffs from your healer. You dont need to block the stomp in 1st phase.
3. There are save spots in his melee range, you can literally stand right next to him and take no damage if you know how to position yourself.
4. Dont really count him as a boss so w/e.
5. You only have to worry about 2 AoEs, dodgeroll out of the flame circle around the fire boss, sidestep the fire wave.

In general melee builds hit harder than ranged builds do, so there is more risk but also more reward which makes sense. In this patch it is melee magicka builds that hit the hardest but they are melee builds regardless.

Achronokey

mairwen85 wrote: »

Sorry, but

Why this game HATES melee builds

That's a good one. [snip]

I personally dont have problems with learning to dodge and counteract red cirles/other stuff. As i mentioned above i already have exp with PVE content of dungeons and raids/trials.

Stam have greater mobility

Ofc, u know why they need and use that? To avoid many problems melee have but range have not.

higher dps output

Are u 100% sure?

What you are describing is the fundamental criteria that determines choice of playstyle.

Then rly tryhard statics would ask for stam dd's only? If they do more dmg its ez to kill boss u know. I wonder why that not the case.

Additionally, there is a wider variety of gear available for stam instead of the lacklustre base game set that is bis for all mag

And this change things how? Now mages dont even have to bother about gear setup too. Variety of gear does not help when u constantly dodging red circle or running to adds then back to boss and over and over again.

[snip]

Seems like u guys did not fully understand me. This is not a big problem for melee player to learn how to deal with all that situations BUT it is a problem when PVE constantly hates u while range builds have minor problems sometimes.

[edited to remove quoted post]

Grianasteri

Its an age old argument but when its examined closer, it doesn't really stack up.

Yes, there are differences between stam and mag, and it is unlikely we could ever make them completely equal. But the differences you highlight are often compensated for in other ways.

Stam hits harder, has more resistance (survivability), has more mobility and can actually be more simple to use depending on build. Im not going to list all the correlating differences, but there are trade offs.

I play both stam and mag dps characters, for me, I tend to prefer mag and ranged combat but not by a lot, and when I play my stam melee characters, which is often, Im not thinking OMG mag has it so easy and Im so hard done by, Im just enjoying a different play style.

mairwen85

Achronokey wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Sorry, but

Why this game HATES melee builds

That's a good one. [snip]

I personally dont have problems with learning to dodge and counteract red cirles/other stuff. As i mentioned above i already have exp with PVE content of dungeons and raids/trials.

Stam have greater mobility

Ofc, u know why they need and use that? To avoid many problems melee have but range have not.

higher dps output

Are u 100% sure?

What you are describing is the fundamental criteria that determines choice of playstyle.

Then rly tryhard statics would ask for stam dd's only? If they do more dmg its ez to kill boss u know. I wonder why that not the case.

Additionally, there is a wider variety of gear available for stam instead of the lacklustre base game set that is bis for all mag

And this change things how? Now mages dont even have to bother about gear setup too. Variety of gear does not help when u constantly dodging red circle or running to adds then back to boss and over and over again.

[snip]

Seems like u guys did not fully understand me. This is not a big problem for melee player to learn how to deal with all that situations BUT it is a problem when PVE constantly hates u while range builds have minor problems sometimes.

[snip] Playing in melee range is a risk because of course the boss is going to do more damage to you when you're up in his face. That's the reason for increased mobility and lower complexity of rotation, and higher mitigation, and higher damage, and better sustain. For the record, I play both mag and stam toons, I'm quite familiar with all the points you are raising, and my answer to you is simply: if you don't like the risk, don't play that way. I'm sure we'll see another thread like this in a few weeks time about why the game HATES ranged builds if you do. There are trade-offs for both options, play the game, expand your experience and you'll see. Sometimes I'll pull out my stam for for certain content, sometimes my mag, either way, there are, as stated by not only myself, benefits and pitfalls to both.

---

Achronokey wrote: »

Then rly tryhard statics would ask for stam dd's only? If they do more dmg its ez to kill boss u know. I wonder why that not the case.

Answer:

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

In general melee builds hit harder than ranged builds do, so there is more risk but also more reward which makes sense. In this patch it is melee magicka builds that hit the hardest but they are melee builds regardless.

Full or primarily stam trial teams has been a thing for a long time until recently.

[edited for baiting]

Elwendryll

I play stamsorc in melee (endgame). I don't really fall behind in damage, sometimes being in the top (we never have more than 2 stams in the trial, sometimes I'm the only one). But with stranglers and blood for blood I can't even compete this patch.

That's the only thing I can complain about, I want a cool mythic item too. I feel safer playing stam. Some fights force your group to spread. But being stam I have priority on the melee spot so it turns out fine.

mairwen85

Elwendryll wrote: »

I play stamsorc in melee (endgame). I don't really fall behind in damage, sometimes being in the top (we never have more than 2 stams in the trial, sometimes I'm the only one). But with stranglers and blood for blood I can't even compete this patch.

That's the only thing I can complain about, I want a cool mythic item too. I feel safer playing stam. Some fights force your group to spread. But being stam I have priority on the melee spot so it turns out fine.

That I agree with, there is an imbalance this patch because of this, but in the context of OP bfb means mag has to be in melee range so suffers all the same draw backs of a stam melee dps (more so if wearing thrassians too). Mag at range in thrassians is where the greater shift is. Hopefully ZOS note that disparity and bring in an equivalent stam mythic. But given how much they have historically shown they LOVE stam (), it'll probably be even more game breaking and tip the scales over entirely.

Sanguinor2

mairwen85 wrote: »

Full or primarily stam trial teams has been a thing for a long time until recently.

Im aware. I ran vet trials since homestead. Dont really know what this has to do with what you quoted from me.

mairwen85

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Full or primarily stam trial teams has been a thing for a long time until recently.

Im aware. I ran vet trials since homestead. Dont really know what this has to do with what you quoted from me.

I was quoting you as an answer to OP's question (rather than repeat the same information). Sorry if that wasn't obvious; edited my post to clarify that

Achronokey

mairwen85 wrote: »

Achronokey wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

[snip] Playing in melee range is a risk because of course the boss is going to do more damage to you when you're up in his face. That's the reason for increased mobility and lower complexity of rotation, and higher mitigation, and higher damage, and better sustain. For the record, I play both mag and stam toons, I'm quite familiar with all the points you are raising, and my answer to you is simply: if you don't like the risk, don't play that way. I'm sure we'll see another thread like this in a few weeks time about why the game HATES ranged builds if you do. There are trade-offs for both options, play the game, expand your experience and you'll see. Sometimes I'll pull out my stam for for certain content, sometimes my mag, either way, there are, as stated by not only myself, benefits and pitfalls to both.

What makes u think that im not "getting it"? I dont rly have to play all roles and all variates of builds to understand stuff.
If im not making same conclusions as u are it may simple be because i understand but disagree or u not making ur case clear.

Once again: It is no problem when ranges and melee have different benefits and pitfalls. But it is a problem when PVE content fail to provide mechanics for ranges to worry about.

Simple example: i dont quite remember from wat game but ive seen casted for 2-3 seconds aoe under boss that deals lot of dmg but players can share it. In that situation ranges a forced to move under boss and get this dmg in order to prevent tank from dying. As far as my exp in ESO game does not have enough mechanics similar to that.

That's the reason for increased mobility and lower complexity of rotation, and higher mitigation

I will repeat myself, but, the only reason melee have and need all of that its because PVE poses more threat to them.

and higher damage, and better sustain.

Once again. Are u 100% sure that overall during all length of trial or dungeon melee build deals more dmg?

I think when dust settles both build have similar damage output but i might be wrong. Do u have any data to support ur theory?

Brrrofski

Well most mag play melee range in end game anyway. Everyone just stacks on boss.

For dungeons, it doesn't really matter. You need pretty low DPS to finish them anyway, even DLC dungeons.

Jaimeh

Like someone said above, wait till you get to trials... it used to be that stam hit harder so the risk you had to take by playing in melee range could potentially be rewarded by damage, however, this patch mag reigns supreme, and you hardly ever see stam in the top groups anymore. I love playing stam so I stubbornly continue with it, but it's indeed very frustrating, when you have to have eyes everywhere, and your damage waxes and wanes due to melee unfriendly mechanics... If you like it though, I'd say just learn these mechanics and how to stay alive, and keep playing despite what the game throws at you.

mairwen85

Achronokey wrote: »

What makes u think that im not "getting it"?

Achronokey wrote: »

I dont rly have to play all roles and all variates of builds to understand stuff.

Achronokey wrote: »

it is a problem when PVE content fail to provide mechanics for ranges to worry about.

So your entire argument is from one narrow view of the content, and thus dismisses all counterpoint on that basis alone? Cool, you do you.

Jaimeh wrote: »

Like someone said above, wait till you get to trials... it used to be that stam hit harder so the risk you had to take by playing in melee range could potentially be rewarded by damage, however, this patch mag reigns supreme, and you hardly ever see stam in the top groups anymore. I love playing stam so I stubbornly continue with it, but it's indeed very frustrating, when you have to have eyes everywhere, and your damage waxes and wanes due to melee unfriendly mechanics... If you like it though, I'd say just learn these mechanics and how to stay alive, and keep playing despite what the game throws at you.

And this patch, mag toons for who this is true are mainly in melee range and exposed to the same as their stam counterparts.

Sanguinor2

Achronokey wrote: »

I think when dust settles both build have similar damage output but i might be wrong. Do u have any data to support ur theory?

Look at esologs.com. Check top dps for sunspire/kyne´s aegis. Tell me how many mag builds run blood for blood (melee spammable btw).
I always found it weird that the melee vs ranged discussion is made about mag vs stam. Why should melee mag builds not be treated the same as melee stam builds and ranged stam builds not the same as ranged mag builds? I´ve waited literal years for melee magdk to get the rewards from being in melee instead of only the risks.

mairwen85

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Achronokey wrote: »

I think when dust settles both build have similar damage output but i might be wrong. Do u have any data to support ur theory?

Look at esologs.com. Check top dps for sunspire/kyne´s aegis. Tell me how many mag builds run blood for blood (melee spammable btw).
I always found it weird that the melee vs ranged discussion is made about mag vs stam. Why should melee mag builds not be treated the same as melee stam builds and ranged stam builds not the same as ranged mag builds? I´ve waited literal years for melee magdk to get the rewards from being in melee instead of only the risks.

I totally agree with this, for magplar you have a bit more fallback to mid range so you don't have the full melee experience unless going all out jabplar, and in that case you are provided with a nice heal for damage done (not on bfb builds though). But for magDK, you suffer all the drawbacks of ranged mag (cost, sustain, mitigation) and all the drawbacks of melee, with none of the benefits of either.

Nairinhe

1. Sprint and roll - that's what stamina and medium armor are for
2. Gap closers (yours) are your friends
3. Bow/bow?

Edit: + ranged NB shade morph can be used as "gap creator"

Achronokey

mairwen85 wrote: »

Achronokey wrote: »

What makes u think that im not "getting it"?

Achronokey wrote: »

I dont rly have to play all roles and all variates of builds to understand stuff.

Achronokey wrote: »

it is a problem when PVE content fail to provide mechanics for ranges to worry about.

So your entire argument is from one narrow view of the content, and thus dismisses all counterpoint on that basis alone? Cool, you do you.

Wat argument?) If u look closely at my first post u might realize im not saying that melee build are bad/less effective. Im just wonder why PVE hates em so much.

Also. Just for u to know. I read all the comments, i think em through and im capable of changing my opinion if others provide valid arguments. U dont need to repeat same argument for me in a hope that i will give up.

Achronokey

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Achronokey wrote: »

I think when dust settles both build have similar damage output but i might be wrong. Do u have any data to support ur theory?

I always found it weird that the melee vs ranged discussion is made about mag vs stam. Why should melee mag builds not be treated the same as melee stam builds and ranged stam builds not the same as ranged mag builds?

Im with u, still surprised why melee vs range topic starter changes to stam vs magicka at some point.

Nairinhe wrote: »

1. Sprint and roll - that's what stamina and medium armor are for
2. Gap closers are your friends
3. Bow/bow?

1 yeah so? do i need to reply same thing over and over again? ranges just dont have to roll/sprint as much as melee, making this argument quit pointless
2 if u place Gap closer u lose some dmg
3 Bow/bow is range build i realize many of u guys fall into pattern "stammelee - rangemage" but i dont care wat type of resource u use

mairwen85

Achronokey wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Achronokey wrote: »

What makes u think that im not "getting it"?

Achronokey wrote: »

I dont rly have to play all roles and all variates of builds to understand stuff.

Achronokey wrote: »

it is a problem when PVE content fail to provide mechanics for ranges to worry about.

So your entire argument is from one narrow view of the content, and thus dismisses all counterpoint on that basis alone? Cool, you do you.

Wat argument?) If u look closely at my first post u might realize im not saying that melee build are bad/less effective. Im just wonder why PVE hates em so much.

Also. Just for u to know. I read all the comments, i think em through and im capable of changing my opinion if others provide valid arguments. U dont need to repeat same argument for me in a hope that i will give up.

I'm not trying to make you give up, I'm simply explaining that the game doesn't HATE melee builds, and that there are logical reasons and trade-off for playing either ranged or melee, and in extension of that, the expectation is pretty much melee for everyone this patch because of the introduction of certain skills and items. So all I'm saying is, stating the game HATES melee builds is a bit melodramatic and doesn't take anything into consideration other than your own problems you've encountered with it.

Achronokey wrote: »

Im with u, still surprised why melee vs range topic starter changes to stam vs magicka at some point.

Because stam is built for melee and mag often not. That's not to say you can't have ranged stam or melee mag, but in context they have historically always been more proficient as stam = melee and mag = ranged; it's an intertwined topic where one setup clearly benefits either placement better than the other. This patch has great options for mag melee, but that's a new thing, not an embedded or long standing truth.

Nairinhe

Achronokey wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Achronokey wrote: »

I think when dust settles both build have similar damage output but i might be wrong. Do u have any data to support ur theory?

I always found it weird that the melee vs ranged discussion is made about mag vs stam. Why should melee mag builds not be treated the same as melee stam builds and ranged stam builds not the same as ranged mag builds?

Im with u, still surprised why melee vs range topic starter changes to stam vs magicka at some point.

Nairinhe wrote: »

1. Sprint and roll - that's what stamina and medium armor are for
2. Gap closers are your friends
3. Bow/bow?

1 yeah so? do i need to reply same thing over and over again? ranges just dont have to roll/sprint as much as melee, making this argument quit pointless
2 if u place Gap closer u lose some dmg
3 Bow/bow is range build i realize many of u guys fall into pattern "stammelee - rangemage" but i dont care wat type of resource u use

Gap closers do deal damage, but ok, what do you propose?

Btw, Stormreeve Neidir of Tempest Island tends to hurt when you are too far from her. I'm sure more experienced players could add some examples there ranged playstyle is harder than melee.

Jaimeh

mairwen85 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

Like someone said above, wait till you get to trials... it used to be that stam hit harder so the risk you had to take by playing in melee range could potentially be rewarded by damage, however, this patch mag reigns supreme, and you hardly ever see stam in the top groups anymore. I love playing stam so I stubbornly continue with it, but it's indeed very frustrating, when you have to have eyes everywhere, and your damage waxes and wanes due to melee unfriendly mechanics... If you like it though, I'd say just learn these mechanics and how to stay alive, and keep playing despite what the game throws at you.

And this patch, mag toons for who this is true are mainly in melee range and exposed to the same as their stam counterparts.

Not really; this is only if you use blood for blood, but a lot of people use Thrassian without it, and still get a whooping boost to their damage... plus, they have shields. It's not the same, with mag you always have the option to be ranged with great damage, while bow/bow on stam is not great for end-game dps. Just take a look at the groups progging the difficult achievements, there's a lot of purely ranged mag DDs (especially in group with necro comp). It's an inaccurate (and petty) comparison, to say mag are exposed to the same risks, when they have a ranged kit that still does more damage, due to the advent of Thrassian.

Ratinira

PvE is not limited to a group dungeon play.
Solo playing against mobs is PvE too.
And at my experience playing solo is easier with melee or mixed character. Because in solo there is no tank that will keep mob/boss away from you so you can safely sit in range and pew-pew with arrows or spells (Warden the only one that worked for me).
And to keep the distanse in that case you must run whole battle.

So if you enter that CoH as a solo player with a pure range character you might have found that game hates you too

mairwen85

Jaimeh wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

Like someone said above, wait till you get to trials... it used to be that stam hit harder so the risk you had to take by playing in melee range could potentially be rewarded by damage, however, this patch mag reigns supreme, and you hardly ever see stam in the top groups anymore. I love playing stam so I stubbornly continue with it, but it's indeed very frustrating, when you have to have eyes everywhere, and your damage waxes and wanes due to melee unfriendly mechanics... If you like it though, I'd say just learn these mechanics and how to stay alive, and keep playing despite what the game throws at you.

And this patch, mag toons for who this is true are mainly in melee range and exposed to the same as their stam counterparts.

Not really; this is only if you use blood for blood, but a lot of people use Thrassian without it, and still get a whooping boost to their damage... plus, they have shields. It's not the same, with mag you always have the option to be ranged with great damage, while bow/bow on stam is not great for end-game dps. Just take a look at the groups progging the difficult achievements, there's a lot of purely ranged mag DDs (especially in group with necro comp). It's an inaccurate (and petty) comparison, to say mag are exposed to the same risks, when they have a ranged kit that still does more damage, due to the advent of Thrassian.

Yeah, I mentioned that in my post further up. Thrassians throws a huge imbalance which needs to be addressed. That said, for a trial you'd be stacked melee for the greater part still--but yes, it's an outlier that should be dealt with, either by taming the item or introducing a stamina equivalent. From my testing, 6 stacks on thrassians is equivalent to running zaan (and forgoing the 5pc on fgd means you can even use zaan with it because sustain becomes less a concern when damage is that great), so anything greater than 7 is already pushing the benefit of the piece. An all mag dps team sharing the load, and spreading the sacrifice means that you can quite comfortably use it in higher tier content under the caveat there is enough healing (and seeing as mag heals are powered by spell damage, and you'll be stacking in melee range anyway, why wouldn't this be the case?). It's a rule breaker, no doubt.

L_Nici

If you fight Tunnel Bosses in IC sewers thats getting even more fun, some of them are based on AoE and cover everything since the rooms are not very big. As Melee some of them really screw you, since you are busy dodging and running out of their AoE, because it is not like normal Dungeon bosses where you can heal against that with 60% reduced heal in PvP area and more overall damage inflicted by them.

Achronokey

mairwen85 wrote: »

So all I'm saying is, stating the game HATES melee builds is a bit melodramatic and doesn't take anything into consideration other than your own problems you've encountered with it.

Wat?) Are u saying that only few experienced same melee hate? ESO content do punish melee more. Its fact. No matter what ur perception/subjective expireince is. Its just a fact. U gona argue with that?)

Nairinhe

Achronokey wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

So all I'm saying is, stating the game HATES melee builds is a bit melodramatic and doesn't take anything into consideration other than your own problems you've encountered with it.

Wat?) Are u saying that only few experienced same melee hate? ESO content do punish melee more. Its fact. No matter what ur perception/subjective expireince is. Its just a fact. U gona argue with that?)

That's not a fact, that's your subjective perception.