[PVE] Why this game HATES melee builds?

Achronokey

Txh u guys for discussion! To summarize:

Some players said there is more like a L2P issue rather then in-game flaw. Its still an issue tho, if melee players forced to a deeper learning curve why bother with em if u can just pew pew at range?

Also been said that melee build benefits on other ways, this is when the fun begins because:
1 If melee build do have more dmg in order to equalize em with range, then at hi end PVE content, or for player who seek optimal DD build range would seems less attractive coz u want to do as much dmg as possible even if it means harder playstyle
2 If melee build dont have more dmg but "balanced" via higher survive/mobility... well i dont rly take that argument because ranges just dont need more mitigation/selfhealf because they simple getting less dmg over fight. So the only benefin of melee having survive/mobility its to deal with problems ranges do not face in a 1 place.

Some seems to agree with me and asking what my proposals. Its simple - ZOS could do more mechanics to annoy range builds.

Some noticed there is more like risk vs reward thing. Well, about that:
Idea of buffing melee builds in order to deal with current mechanics would just cause them being MORE favorable for experienced/skilled players. Its just the other side of the problem. If melee more effective, why play range?

igniz93

Basically yeah. Good luck clearing vAS+2 and vCR+3 as a melee. I'm a stamplar main and I'm forced to build a mag dps for these trials... Kinda sad, but yeah, that's how the game is. Better to accept it and either stick with it or move on.

Everest_Lionheart

Achronokey wrote: »

Txh u guys for discussion! To summarize:

Some players said there is more like a L2P issue rather then in-game flaw. Its still an issue tho, if melee players forced to a deeper learning curve why bother with em if u can just pew pew at range?

Also been said that melee build benefits on other ways, this is when the fun begins because:
1 If melee build do have more dmg in order to equalize em with range, then at hi end PVE content, or for player who seek optimal DD build range would seems less attractive coz u want to do as much dmg as possible even if it means harder playstyle
2 If melee build dont have more dmg but "balanced" via higher survive/mobility... well i dont rly take that argument because ranges just dont need more mitigation/selfhealf because they simple getting less dmg over fight. So the only benefin of melee having survive/mobility its to deal with problems ranges do not face in a 1 place.

Some seems to agree with me and asking what my proposals. Its simple - ZOS could do more mechanics to annoy range builds.

Some noticed there is more like risk vs reward thing. Well, about that:
Idea of buffing melee builds in order to deal with current mechanics would just cause them being MORE favorable for experienced/skilled players. Its just the other side of the problem. If melee more effective, why play range?

I don’t know that I would say it’s a L2P issue. Anyone playing the melee classes whether that’s stam or mag knows the limitations. The reason I play the toons that I play ultimately at the end of the day is to have fun. Melee builds are way more exciting and engaging in my opinion, but sometimes I don’t need that stress so I roll up with my mag toons and pew pew and take it a bit more easy. Stamwarden to magplar is quite the contrast in play style and I’ve got a MagDK that fits in between play style wise as well. How I play sometimes depends on my mood and sometimes it depends if I can get my fingers to cooperate. It’s nice to have options.

Achronokey

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Anyone playing the melee classes whether that’s stam or mag knows the limitations.

No they dont. Not "anyone", atleast newcomers dont know about all that stuff.

The reason I play the toons that I play ultimately at the end of the day is to have fun.

Ofc, we all play for fun in a 1 place. But the mechanics i mention causes some antifun for melee

but sometimes I don’t need that stress so I roll up with my mag toons and pew pew and take it a bit more easy.

Exactly my point

How I play sometimes depends on my mood and sometimes it depends if I can get my fingers to cooperate. It’s nice to have options.

Ofc its nice. But there been some disturbing mentions about hi-end PVE content, wat was that...

igniz93 wrote: »

Basically yeah. Good luck clearing vAS+2 and vCR+3 as a melee. I'm a stamplar main and I'm forced to build a mag dps for these trials... Kinda sad, but yeah, that's how the game is. Better to accept it and either stick with it or move on.

I know balancing the game is not ez. But it is possible to make melee and range equally useful with a some deviations in terms of dps and survival.

Tigerseye

Achronokey wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Achronokey wrote: »

First of all not mag, range. Second - Ranges dont need huge stam pool, they dont have to spam roll or block. U also seems to forget 1 thing: stam users SPEND they stamina TO ATTACK.

Except, of course, that your damage scales off max resource. If you're ranged stam, you still need a high resource pool, and at range you still need to block and dodge, and sometimes even bash. Mag forgoes defensive options because they need a high mag pool for dispensing damage. That doesn't mean mag at range doesn't still need defensive capability, hence shields as a solution.

Back on track, melee range (whether stam or mag) you're in harms way; that's a position you put yourself in with eyes wide open accepting of the risk and in knowledge that you're probably going to have a bit more footwork to do. The further from the fight you are, the safer you're going to be--aside from bosses that leap at or trigger mech on whoever is furthest away. This isn't particularly biased on any play style with any intent to punish, but a logical way the battle would pan out. I'd expect any player, primarily ranged or melee to know when to fall back to safety or move in closer. That is also a logical way for your combat to pan out. As others have said, there are boss fights that give you little space to move at range, and fights that favour either position. There are sets that force casters into melee range, and sets that allow you to keep greater distance. The point is, this is group content and whatever role or placement you put yourself in, you have to work with the team to achieve the best results with your chosen class and spec-- positional awareness is, believe it or not, an important part of playing this game well. Ultimately, it's an equal breakdown and team effort, and if the risk is too great for you personally, well, that's your choice to continue or try something else.

Dude, u being reactive instead of proactive. U just told me to adapt to current game status instead of proposing some changes.

U dont even begin to understund how deep the problem is. If melee build suffer more from red circles and etc they less efective. If its compensated by more dmg output - now ranges are less effective because in right hands melee dd's do more dmg and can survive.

Well, yes, the fact that melee may take a bit more damage should not be mitigated by giving them more damage output than ranged.

As that just makes for an unbalanced feeling game and people will often not take that into account when picking people and will just want to take the player with the higher potential DPS.

Even if s/he can rarely produce that DPS, in practice, due to having to avoid a few more things.

That's not to say that ranged don't also have to avoid things, because they do, but it may be slightly less intense out there.

The fact that melee have to deal with a bit more should be mitigated by a bit more passive damage resistence, if necessary.

Although, probably not as much more as you might think, as (as others have said) most of the AOE heals and buffs are placed in melee range, leaving ranged to fend for themselves far more.

Achronokey

Tigerseye wrote: »

Well, yes, the fact that melee may take a bit more damage should not be mitigated by giving them more damage output than ranged.

It is how it works now? Because several people told me so.

Tigerseye wrote: »

As that just makes for an unbalanced feeling game and people will often not take that into account when picking people and will just want to take the player with the higher potential DPS

.
Well to be honest for Dungeons and +1 Trials that probably not a big problem, but it might be a problem on ++ Trials

Tigerseye wrote: »

Even if s/he can rarely produce that DPS, in practice, due to having to avoid a few more things.

I think good RL look at ur dmg at the end of the raid, not only dummy.

Tigerseye wrote: »

That's not to say that ranged don't also have to avoid things, because they do, but it may be slightly less intense out there.

Its not "slightly" less intense, its very low intense comapred to melee

Tigerseye wrote: »

The fact that melee have to deal with a bit more should be mitigated by a bit more passive damage resistence, if necessary.

And it changes things how, exactly? U not able to facetank all aoe and other stuff and u lose dps every time u forced to get away form the boss

Tigerseye wrote: »

Although, probably not as much more as you might think, as (as others have said) most of the AOE heals and buffs are placed in melee range, leaving ranged to fend for themselves far more.

Same problem, ranges dont need that much healing because they dont receive that much dmg. Also they can stay just between healer and melee.

StamPlar_1976

My Stamcro and Stamplar would like a word with you.

Taoerche

I can't agree more with you.

Melee DPS cannot use melee attacks and skills when they are far away from the boss but ranged DPS can still do their things in melee range.

I think they should add more things like drain magicka that ONLY hinders ranged DPS. Or do something that hurts ranged DPS when they are close, like making ranged attacks that come from a close distance taunt, which surely sounds fun.

jircris11

mairwen85 wrote: »

Sorry, but

Why this game HATES melee builds

That's a good one. [snip] Stam have greater mobility, higher dps output, and lower cost (better RoI), the reason being it is a greater risk play style. Mag is safer at range, so higher cost skills with lower damage output (worse RoI). Mag has to layer more DoTs and often have more complex rotations with more skills and bar swaps; stam has simpler more flurry/spam oriented rotations because of mobility. Stam as higher mitigation because all medium vs lower mitigation next to nothing defence of mag. What you are describing is the fundamental criteria that determines choice of playstyle.

Additionally, there is a wider variety of gear available for stam instead of the lacklustre base game set that is bis for all mag and a tweaked out crafted set passing for a trial set.

Niaver wrote: »

Wait until you get to vet trials More serious groups won't probably even consider inviting you on a stam character.

Yeah because for 2 patches mag gets some love, right. Let's forget how it was only 8+ months ago.

[edited for baiting]

The issue with the "endgane" groups is their focus on meta. I have been kicked from groups because of my build yet when I dps checked for them I was the highest in group. Just because someone is not running fotm does not mean their custom build is bad, especially if they know how to use it effectively.

CyberSkooma

Niaver wrote: »

Wait until you get to vet trials More serious groups won't probably even consider inviting you on a stam character.

This isn't true lol. What you meant to say, is, "some groups."