ESO direly need a central auction house ...

Lysette · July 2020

Tigerseye wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

It surprises me that people can not stop arguing form a sellers point of view.
I guess it's very hard to imagine how ESO trading works form the pov of someone that just wants to buy something.

Oh, ok, I see this argument now. An AH is cool, because you can buy a stack of cornflower for 100gp from a 24/7 botfarm; anyone who actually plays the game and wants to sell things is utterly irrelevant in your calculations.

I honestly don't see the relation between AH or in-game TTC and and botfarms.
Implictely you say that the moment ESO gets an AH o rin-game TTC, botfarms will be abundant.
Which seems very unlikely an illogical.

Very weird argument. Even weirder that people actually support such a statement.
You fanatism is a bit scary if I may say so.

You said you don't care about the sellers

Yes, well seeing as most of the sellers here don't appear to care about buyers, at all, what exactly would you expect in return?

You only get what you give.

There is no front line here - what could a seller do with no customers?- What could a buyer do with no one offering something to buy?- It is understandable, that someone who wants to buy something, wants a way to get to what he wants faster - that is about an information tool then and not about being against shops or suppliers. Or if it is against shops and suppliers, then this is the part where the line is crossed between reason and simply disliking anyone who is on the supplier/seller side.

The seller side will never be against customers who are willing to pay a reasonable price, the front line appear though, when services provided by the seller/supplier side are expected to be dirt cheap to the point, that it cuts into the livelihood of the supplier/seller side. And among those, who are hurt the most are exactly those, who want to occasionally sell something without the intend to regularly care about their listings - it takes just minutes until their offers will be buried under cheaper ones and their listing might not get a chance to be sold before 30 days are over and they'll get their stuff returned to them.

We have to stop to see this as a battleground - it is none between reasonable people, we can argue about all of this. But it won't work, when there is no empathy for the other side of the coin - and it is a coin, one side cannot be without the other.

Nomadic_Atmoran · July 2020

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

It surprises me that people can not stop arguing form a sellers point of view.
I guess it's very hard to imagine how ESO trading works form the pov of someone that just wants to buy something.

Oh, ok, I see this argument now. An AH is cool, because you can buy a stack of cornflower for 100gp from a 24/7 botfarm; anyone who actually plays the game and wants to sell things is utterly irrelevant in your calculations.

I honestly don't see the relation between AH or in-game TTC and and botfarms.
Implictely you say that the moment ESO gets an AH o rin-game TTC, botfarms will be abundant.
Which seems very unlikely an illogical.

Very weird argument. Even weirder that people actually support such a statement.
You fanatism is a bit scary if I may say so.

You said you don't care about the sellers

Yes, well seeing as most of the sellers here don't appear to care about buyers, at all, what exactly would you expect in return?

You only get what you give.

A hundred sellers have tried to tell you how an AH would hurt them, and you've spent numerous posts basically saying "I don't care about you". So I guess we're at an impasse.

Sellers are not all going to "stop posting goods".

So you expect us to spend hours and hours of playing time harvesting and crafting so we can sell you stuff at penny-war vendor prices... out of what, altruism? When you and your other compatriots have been insulting us and giving us the middle finger throughout this whole thread?

I wish I had an option to add players to some kind of embargo list, because that attitude turns my stomach. I don't know how to explain to you that it's generally a good thing to care about people who are doing extra work so you don't have to.

That is not how it would work and you know it. Items would not just suddenly tank to the point of no profit. Things that still require player time and effort would still come with a pricetag that reflected it. An AH would not change that. Stop with the gloom and doom.

Lysette · July 2020

Tigerseye wrote: »

...and you know what did make me, as a seller, "stop posting" furniture for about two years?

The fact I could no longer get furnishing mats at a reasonable price, if at all and had to go around searching multiple traders and still end up with very little.

That forced me to prioritise my own furnishing needs and end my little furnishing business.

This is in a big market always like this - I have to take EVE again as example - tech 1 equipment sells in the major trade hub often far below construction costs, not even counting transport costs and risks involved. Reason - people are not used to calculate in a business manner - like they don't consider their time investment or think that stuff they can farm in world is free as a resource. No, it isn't, it is worth the current market price, regardless that they hadn't to pay for it.

These kind of people sell then their product for a too low price and competitors have to look for cheaper raw materials and if they find them, they take them off the market and put them in stock - result of it - no reasonable resource prices and low supply of them. An AH does not solve the main problem, which is people who aren't able to calculate economically.

An ESO example for this kind of miscalculation are food and drink items - often they cost less than the materials required to create them. Your problem with your furniture business is not the type of market system, but other people and you can't do anything about those.

Tigerseye · July 2020

Lysette wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

It surprises me that people can not stop arguing form a sellers point of view.
I guess it's very hard to imagine how ESO trading works form the pov of someone that just wants to buy something.

Oh, ok, I see this argument now. An AH is cool, because you can buy a stack of cornflower for 100gp from a 24/7 botfarm; anyone who actually plays the game and wants to sell things is utterly irrelevant in your calculations.

I honestly don't see the relation between AH or in-game TTC and and botfarms.
Implictely you say that the moment ESO gets an AH o rin-game TTC, botfarms will be abundant.
Which seems very unlikely an illogical.

Very weird argument. Even weirder that people actually support such a statement.
You fanatism is a bit scary if I may say so.

You said you don't care about the sellers

Yes, well seeing as most of the sellers here don't appear to care about buyers, at all, what exactly would you expect in return?

You only get what you give.

There is no front line here - what could a seller do with no customers?- What could a buyer do with no one offering something to buy?- It is understandable, that someone who wants to buy something, wants a way to get to what he wants faster - that is about an information tool then and not about being against shops or suppliers. Or if it is against shops and suppliers, then this is the part where the line is crossed between reason and simply disliking anyone who is on the supplier/seller side.

The seller side will never be against customers who are willing to pay a reasonable price, the front line appear though, when services provided by the seller/supplier side are expected to be dirt cheap to the point, that it cuts into the livelihood of the supplier/seller side. And among those, who are hurt the most are exactly those, who want to occasionally sell something without the intend to regularly care about their listings - it takes just minutes until their offers will be buried under cheaper ones and their listing might not get a chance to be sold before 30 days are over and they'll get their stuff returned to them.

We have to stop to see this as a battleground - it is none between reasonable people, we can argue about all of this. But it won't work, when there is no empathy for the other side of the coin - and it is a coin, one side cannot be without the other.

I don't (or didn't) see it as a battleground, Lysette, even if it would appear some do.

I'm not against "shops, or suppliers", because I don't agree that adding a way to sell materials (and maybe, also drops), in a more centralised way, is automatically anti-seller.

Especially as far more would-be buyers, who don't buy currently (as they hate/don't understand the current system), would be brought into the system.

Creating far more potential demand; not less.

Unlike crafted goods, materials are almost invariably supposed to be a wholesale, not a retail, item.

That is how the supply chain works in real life.

That doesn't, necessarily, mean they would sell for less, if they were sold wholesale, than they currently do in a very limited and prohibitively annoying retail system.

With fewer buyers than it should have, as a result.

What it would mean is that it would increase the market for them, in general, by making them far easier to find.

It's not like the material sellers couldn't, also, add value to them, by turning them into crafted goods and then selling them in a trader store, under my suggested hybrid system, if they wanted to.

The problem is, now, that there is literally no profit in selling most of the older (which most becomes, fairly quickly) furniture, unless you farm your own mats and then sell the furnishings for mat price, or below.

So, there is no way of adding any value, for people who don't gather all day, or bot.

Partly because of the price of mats (in some cases and/or at some times) and partly because some of the same people, who sell large quantities of mats, in guild stores, are also selling the crafted furniture for the same, or even less, than the mat cost, themselves.

Add to that the sheer time and inconvenience involved and it just leaves most of us with almost no way and/or inclination, to try to make any money from our furnishing crafts.

Unless we are lucky enough to get an early purple drop, for a brand new area, or we decide to buy one.

...and in the latter case, when we sell the items we make from it, we are normally just trying to claw some of the money back we paid for it, if we are lucky.

We are normally not making a profit, or even breaking even on it, once the mats + the recipe cost are taken into account.

Yes, there may be exceptions to this, but they are very rare and still, obviously, do not solve the issue of the huge inconvenience finding mats, in this system, incurs.

Every time you craft an item to sell, you wonder if you should be, given how hard finding more mats will be, to replace the ones you used.

This inability to craft, at a profit and/or without far too much time and hassle involved to find materials, removes at least some of the point of crafting, for almost all regular (i.e. playing for fun and not botting) players.

Why bother buying plans and crafting furniture, at all, if you can generally just buy the furniture you need to furnish your house, for less, with far less time and hassle involved?

Anyway, my ESO+ runs out in a month and I have cancelled it (it's normally recurring).

Partly because of the ongoing annoyance of all this (it's been niggling at me for 2 years, now) and partly because of things like horrible performance, constant crashing and addons like Writworthy no longer being supported.

The author said he left the game - speaking of people leaving...

...and for me, the game is unplayable without ESO+ and Writworthy, so once this month is over, I'm almost certainly going to have to be out of here.

Certainly, I'm out of here financially, anyway.

So, it's probably best if I just leave this subject at this and move on.

I tried to find a workable compromise, but it would appear the game is being totally controlled by people who feel they (for whatever reason) can't even allow that to happen.

Let alone the introduction of an auction house-only system.

So, I give up.

AlnilamE · July 2020

WastedJoker wrote: »

All I know is that teleporting from area to area trying to find the best value deal is a complete chore 👍 I was looking to buy jewellery and weapons from the Morkuldin set in specific traits and spent about an hour travelling between all the guild areas without success.

A central AH would have saved me that hour.

The Morkuldin set is crafted. Nobody in their right mind is going to post jewelry for it with random traits in hopes you show up and buy it. Contact a crafter and put in an order and you'll get exactly what you want in 15 minutes or less.

Lysette · July 2020

Tigerseye wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

It surprises me that people can not stop arguing form a sellers point of view.
I guess it's very hard to imagine how ESO trading works form the pov of someone that just wants to buy something.

Oh, ok, I see this argument now. An AH is cool, because you can buy a stack of cornflower for 100gp from a 24/7 botfarm; anyone who actually plays the game and wants to sell things is utterly irrelevant in your calculations.

I honestly don't see the relation between AH or in-game TTC and and botfarms.
Implictely you say that the moment ESO gets an AH o rin-game TTC, botfarms will be abundant.
Which seems very unlikely an illogical.

Very weird argument. Even weirder that people actually support such a statement.
You fanatism is a bit scary if I may say so.

You said you don't care about the sellers

Yes, well seeing as most of the sellers here don't appear to care about buyers, at all, what exactly would you expect in return?

You only get what you give.

There is no front line here - what could a seller do with no customers?- What could a buyer do with no one offering something to buy?- It is understandable, that someone who wants to buy something, wants a way to get to what he wants faster - that is about an information tool then and not about being against shops or suppliers. Or if it is against shops and suppliers, then this is the part where the line is crossed between reason and simply disliking anyone who is on the supplier/seller side.

The seller side will never be against customers who are willing to pay a reasonable price, the front line appear though, when services provided by the seller/supplier side are expected to be dirt cheap to the point, that it cuts into the livelihood of the supplier/seller side. And among those, who are hurt the most are exactly those, who want to occasionally sell something without the intend to regularly care about their listings - it takes just minutes until their offers will be buried under cheaper ones and their listing might not get a chance to be sold before 30 days are over and they'll get their stuff returned to them.

We have to stop to see this as a battleground - it is none between reasonable people, we can argue about all of this. But it won't work, when there is no empathy for the other side of the coin - and it is a coin, one side cannot be without the other.

I don't (or didn't) see it as a battleground, Lysette, even if it would appear some do.

I'm not against "shops, or suppliers", because I don't agree that adding a way to sell materials (and maybe, also drops), in a more centralised way, is automatically anti-seller.

Especially as far more would-be buyers, who don't buy currently (as they hate/don't understand the current system), would be brought into the system.

Creating far more potential demand; not less.

Unlike crafted goods, materials are almost invariably supposed to be a wholesale, not a retail, item.

That is how the supply chain works in real life.

That doesn't, necessarily, mean they would sell for less, if they were sold wholesale, than they currently do in a very limited and prohibitively annoying retail system.

With fewer buyers than it should have, as a result.

What it would mean is that it would increase the market for them, in general, by making them far easier to find.

It's not like the material sellers couldn't, also, add value to them, by turning them into crafted goods and then selling them in a trader store, under my suggested hybrid system, if they wanted to.

The problem is, now, that there is literally no profit in selling most of the older (which most becomes, fairly quickly) furniture, unless you farm your own mats and then sell the furnishings for mat price, or below.

So, there is no way of adding any value, for people who don't gather all day, or bot.

Partly because of the price of mats (in some cases and/or at some times) and partly because some of the same people, who sell large quantities of mats, in guild stores, are also selling the crafted furniture for the same, or even less, than the mat cost, themselves.

Add to that the sheer time and inconvenience involved and it just leaves most of us with almost no way and/or inclination, to try to make any money from our furnishing crafts.

Unless we are lucky enough to get an early purple drop, for a brand new area, or we decide to buy one.

...and in the latter case, when we sell the items we make from it, we are normally just trying to claw some of the money back we paid for it, if we are lucky.

We are normally not making a profit, or even breaking even on it, once the mats + the recipe cost are taken into account.

Yes, there may be exceptions to this, but they are very rare and still, obviously, do not solve the issue of the huge inconvenience finding mats, in this system, incurs.

Every time you craft an item to sell, you wonder if you should be, given how hard finding more mats will be, to replace the ones you used.

This inability to craft, at a profit and/or without far too much time and hassle involved to find materials, removes at least some of the point of crafting, for almost all regular (i.e. playing for fun and not botting) players.

Why bother buying plans and crafting furniture, at all, if you can generally just buy what you need to furnish your house, for less, with far less time and hassle involved?

Anyway, my ESO+ runs out in a month and I have cancelled it (it's normally recurring).

Partly because of the ongoing annoyance of all this (it's been niggling at me for 2 years, now) and partly because of things like horrible performance, constant crashing and addons like Writworthy no longer being supported.

The author said he left the game - speaking of people leaving...

...and for me, the game is unplayable without ESO+ and Writworthy, so once this month is over, I'm almost certainly going to have to be out of here.

Certainly, I'm out of here financially, anyway.

So, it's probably best if I just leave this subject at this and move on.

I tried to find a workable compromise, but it would appear the game is being totally controlled by people who feel they (for whatever reason) can't even allow that to happen.

Let alone the introduction of an auction house-only system.

So, I give up.

What you describe is pretty much what I told about how non-business people think and behave, when they try to start a business. What you describe is just even harder in a big hub than it is with decentralized markets. Jita 4-4 caldary navy is the main trading hub in EVE and most try to go there, because they get the best "instant" prices for their stuff there (because there are buy orders which they just can fill in) and at the same time the lowest prices for what they want to buy.

The result of it is that just station traders can actually trade there, others just sell their product and buy what they need and leave Jita again - station traders on the other side pretty much never leave Jita 4-4, their job is monitoring all their listings and putting their offers back on top of the list - they operate with very small margins, but extremely high volume. A regular guy has no chance there, he will have to fill in buy orders and so not get that much and with tech 1 equipment and ships often below construction costs even. And these are already the best "instant" prices he can get. In other regions he might get more or less, but it will take him longer to get things sold .- and time is money as well, especially when he has to care for his listings or nothing gets sold. But regional markets are for those often the niche, where they can actually make a profit nevertheless. The decentralized market gives them a chance as well, but Jita 4-4 is a shark tank.

Tigerseye · July 2020

[snip]

I traded crafted goods (mostly successfully, despite not using addons), in WoW and I played other games, like ESO, where I didn't bother crafting and only sold mats.

I know precisely how trading in these kind of games works.

I know all the pros and cons.

Hence my compromise suggestion, which limits the cons of each system.

The main con in WoW, by the way, was addons/bots undercutting by 1c, even when the trader wasn't online.

They could have banned those addons/bots and gone after anyone still using them and stopped that happening.

If this isn't a battleground, Lysette, how come the approach you appear to be, fairly consistently, taking is to try to put people down, make assumptions about them and not really listen to what they have been saying all along?

[Edited to remove minor Baiting]

Lysette · July 2020

Tigerseye wrote: »

"Non-business people", OK.

...and yet, I appear to be the only one, here, who understands (or wants to admit they understand) how supply chains work.

I traded crafted goods (mostly successfully, despite not using addons), in WoW and I played other games, like ESO, where I didn't bother crafting and only sold mats.

I know precisely how trading in these kind of games works.

I know all the pros and cons.

Hence my compromise suggestion, which limits the cons of each system.

The main con in WoW, by the way, was addons/bots undercutting by 1c, even when the trader wasn't online.

They could have banned those addons/bots and gone after anyone still using them and stopped that happening.

If this isn't a battleground, Lysette, how come the approach you appear to be, fairly consistently, taking is to try to put people down, make assumptions about them and not really listen to what they have been saying all along?

People in games behave differently when it comes to business than in the real world. In a game they don't risk anything and a lot have no business background whatsoever - what is neither a good nor a bad thing, it is a game, not to make a living from it. In the real world things are a little different because the conditions are different - and anyone not having a business mind will not make it in the real world - about 80% of new businesses are gone within 5 years - basically when their savings are gone and they can no longer make any more debt - now if the real world has already 4 out of 5 who want to run a business, who fail, guess how many those are in a game, especially with ideas like "farmed items are free". And often they do not even grasp it after it has been explained to them - some people are just not made for business - and in a game are more of them.

Anotherone773 · July 2020

Tigerseye wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

It surprises me that people can not stop arguing form a sellers point of view.
I guess it's very hard to imagine how ESO trading works form the pov of someone that just wants to buy something.

Oh, ok, I see this argument now. An AH is cool, because you can buy a stack of cornflower for 100gp from a 24/7 botfarm; anyone who actually plays the game and wants to sell things is utterly irrelevant in your calculations.

I honestly don't see the relation between AH or in-game TTC and and botfarms.
Implictely you say that the moment ESO gets an AH o rin-game TTC, botfarms will be abundant.
Which seems very unlikely an illogical.

Very weird argument. Even weirder that people actually support such a statement.
You fanatism is a bit scary if I may say so.

You said you don't care about the sellers

Yes, well seeing as most of the sellers here don't appear to care about buyers, at all, what exactly would you expect in return?

You only get what you give.

A hundred sellers have tried to tell you how an AH would hurt them, and you've spent numerous posts basically saying "I don't care about you". So I guess we're at an impasse.

Sellers are not all going to "stop posting goods".

So you expect us to spend hours and hours of playing time harvesting and crafting so we can sell you stuff at penny-war vendor prices... out of what, altruism? When you and your other compatriots have been insulting us and giving us the middle finger throughout this whole thread?

I wish I had an option to add players to some kind of embargo list, because that attitude turns my stomach. I don't know how to explain to you that it's generally a good thing to care about people who are doing extra work so you don't have to.

I never said I didn't care about sellers, because (as I DID say, repeatedly!), I am a seller, too.
One of my main problems is buying stuff to craft with, at a reasonable price (not a stupidly low price), when I need 10 per item, so I can then sell my crafted goods.
...and not in batches of one, or two (or even 10), materials at a time, in 50 different locations, through 50 different load screens.
...and not to find they have all sold when I get there.

The recipes for the crafted items cost me a fortune, so I'm basically running at a loss, most of the time, anyway.
At least do me the dignity of reading my posts, before you try to put words in my mouth.
But, no, just say you want to to ignore me - when you already have, completely, so far -and libel me, into the bargain...

[snip] You keep saying a reasonable price. What we talking? 5 gold per heartwood? 10 max?
I deal in blueprints a lot. The only high prices ones are the newest ones for 6-12 months after release. The rest you are paying a fair market value based on rarity and supply and demand.

Tigerseye wrote: »

By the way, I would suggest that any seller, who thinks it is a horrible chore to have to gather and sell materials, just stops.

Unless their real life income depends on it, of course...

In which case, we have far more important things to worry about than buying and selling in a game and I was right to cancel my ESO+ two days ago, because I do not wish to be involved in, or encourage, that kind of exploitation.

[snip]

Tigerseye wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

It surprises me that people can not stop arguing form a sellers point of view.
I guess it's very hard to imagine how ESO trading works form the pov of someone that just wants to buy something.

Oh, ok, I see this argument now. An AH is cool, because you can buy a stack of cornflower for 100gp from a 24/7 botfarm; anyone who actually plays the game and wants to sell things is utterly irrelevant in your calculations.

I honestly don't see the relation between AH or in-game TTC and and botfarms.
Implictely you say that the moment ESO gets an AH o rin-game TTC, botfarms will be abundant.
Which seems very unlikely an illogical.

Very weird argument. Even weirder that people actually support such a statement.
You fanatism is a bit scary if I may say so.

You said you don't care about the sellers

Yes, well seeing as most of the sellers here don't appear to care about buyers, at all, what exactly would you expect in return?

You only get what you give.

There is no front line here - what could a seller do with no customers?- What could a buyer do with no one offering something to buy?- It is understandable, that someone who wants to buy something, wants a way to get to what he wants faster - that is about an information tool then and not about being against shops or suppliers. Or if it is against shops and suppliers, then this is the part where the line is crossed between reason and simply disliking anyone who is on the supplier/seller side.

The seller side will never be against customers who are willing to pay a reasonable price, the front line appear though, when services provided by the seller/supplier side are expected to be dirt cheap to the point, that it cuts into the livelihood of the supplier/seller side. And among those, who are hurt the most are exactly those, who want to occasionally sell something without the intend to regularly care about their listings - it takes just minutes until their offers will be buried under cheaper ones and their listing might not get a chance to be sold before 30 days are over and they'll get their stuff returned to them.

We have to stop to see this as a battleground - it is none between reasonable people, we can argue about all of this. But it won't work, when there is no empathy for the other side of the coin - and it is a coin, one side cannot be without the other.

I don't (or didn't) see it as a battleground, Lysette, even if it would appear some do.
I'm not against "shops, or suppliers", because I don't agree that adding a way to sell materials (and maybe, also drops), in a more centralised way, is automatically anti-seller.
Especially as far more would-be buyers, who don't buy currently (as they hate/don't understand the current system), would be brought into the system.
Creating far more potential demand; not less.
Unlike crafted goods, materials are almost invariably supposed to be a wholesale, not a retail, item.
That is how the supply chain works in real life.

That doesn't, necessarily, mean they would sell for less, if they were sold wholesale, than they currently do in a very limited and prohibitively annoying retail system.
With fewer buyers than it should have, as a result.
What it would mean is that it would increase the market for them, in general, by making them far easier to find.
It's not like the material sellers couldn't, also, add value to them, by turning them into crafted goods and then selling them in a trader store, under my suggested hybrid system, if they wanted to.
The problem is, now, that there is literally no profit in selling most of the older (which most becomes, fairly quickly) furniture, unless you farm your own mats and then sell the furnishings for mat price, or below.

So, there is no way of adding any value, for people who don't gather all day, or bot.
Partly because of the price of mats (in some cases and/or at some times) and partly because some of the same people, who sell large quantities of mats, in guild stores, are also selling the crafted furniture for the same, or even less, than the mat cost, themselves.
Add to that the sheer time and inconvenience involved and it just leaves most of us with almost no way and/or inclination, to try to make any money from our furnishing crafts.

Unless we are lucky enough to get an early purple drop, for a brand new area, or we decide to buy one.
...and in the latter case, when we sell the items we make from it, we are normally just trying to claw some of the money back we paid for it, if we are lucky.
We are normally not making a profit, or even breaking even on it, once the mats + the recipe cost are taken into account.

Yes, there may be exceptions to this, but they are very rare and still, obviously, do not solve the issue of the huge inconvenience finding mats, in this system, incurs.
Every time you craft an item to sell, you wonder if you should be, given how hard finding more mats will be, to replace the ones you used.
This inability to craft, at a profit and/or without far too much time and hassle involved to find materials, removes at least some of the point of crafting, for almost all regular (i.e. playing for fun and not botting) players.
Why bother buying plans and crafting furniture, at all, if you can generally just buy the furniture you need to furnish your house, for less, with far less time and hassle involved?

Anyway, my ESO+ runs out in a month and I have cancelled it (it's normally recurring).
Partly because of the ongoing annoyance of all this (it's been niggling at me for 2 years, now) and partly because of things like horrible performance, constant crashing and addons like Writworthy no longer being supported.
The author said he left the game - speaking of people leaving...
...and for me, the game is unplayable without ESO+ and Writworthy, so once this month is over, I'm almost certainly going to have to be out of here.
Certainly, I'm out of here financially, anyway.
So, it's probably best if I just leave this subject at this and move on.
I tried to find a workable compromise, but it would appear the game is being totally controlled by people who feel they (for whatever reason) can't even allow that to happen.
Let alone the introduction of an auction house-only system.
So, I give up.

Its not near as hard to find mats as you make it out to be. Are you playing on PTS or something? [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Tigerseye · July 2020

Anotherone773 wrote: »

[snip] You keep saying a reasonable price. What we talking? 5 gold per heartwood? 10 max?

I didn't stipulate, but no, not that low at all.

The crafting part isn't the issue - it's the travelling from guild store to guild store, for very little of an item at a time, if any is left (at a reasonable price) by the time you get there, at all.

[snip]

Um, no.

I specifically said it was a good thing I cancelled my ESO+, because I do not wish to be involved with/inadvertently encouraging exploitation.

So, how would that be saying they should continue?

I'm talking about slaves who feel they can't stop.

I even told them to group together, if they are being exploited, before it gets any worse.

Hopefully, if they are not children, they can (and should) do that.

If they are children, then that is even worse, obviously.

You're not making any sense, frankly.

...and projection would appear to be at play, too, on your behalf, if you think I am the dramatic one, here.

Its not near as hard to find mats as you make it out to be. Are you playing on PTS or something? [snip]

Well, it drives me insane to read what you have done to my post and the way you write like you are on an old fashioned typewriter, typing on paper.

The double spacing is an internet thing.

It's supposed to be easier on the eyes.

I'm surprised you haven't got used to it by now, as most people write their emails that way and have for years/decades.

...and no, I'm (obviously) not playing on PTS, I'm playing on PC/EU.

Why would I have been paying for ESO+ if I played on PTS?

...and if I played on PTS, why would I care about trading?

Again, I can't make any sense of your comments, at all.

Tigerseye · July 2020

Lysette wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

"Non-business people", OK.

...and yet, I appear to be the only one, here, who understands (or wants to admit they understand) how supply chains work.

I traded crafted goods (mostly successfully, despite not using addons), in WoW and I played other games, like ESO, where I didn't bother crafting and only sold mats.

I know precisely how trading in these kind of games works.

I know all the pros and cons.

Hence my compromise suggestion, which limits the cons of each system.

The main con in WoW, by the way, was addons/bots undercutting by 1c, even when the trader wasn't online.

They could have banned those addons/bots and gone after anyone still using them and stopped that happening.

If this isn't a battleground, Lysette, how come the approach you appear to be, fairly consistently, taking is to try to put people down, make assumptions about them and not really listen to what they have been saying all along?

People in games behave differently when it comes to business than in the real world. In a game they don't risk anything and a lot have no business background whatsoever - what is neither a good nor a bad thing, it is a game, not to make a living from it. In the real world things are a little different because the conditions are different - and anyone not having a business mind will not make it in the real world - about 80% of new businesses are gone within 5 years - basically when their savings are gone and they can no longer make any more debt - now if the real world has already 4 out of 5 who want to run a business, who fail, guess how many those are in a game, especially with ideas like "farmed items are free". And often they do not even grasp it after it has been explained to them - some people are just not made for business - and in a game are more of them.

I haven't "failed", Lysette.

I just decided (as a regular person, for whom this isn't a job) it was not worth my time and effort, for the most part.

...and if I have, I imagine many others have, too.

There are only so many loading screens a person can take...

...and of course I agree with you that farmed items are not free.

VoxAdActa · July 2020

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

That is not how it would work and you know it. Items would not just suddenly tank to the point of no profit. Things that still require player time and effort would still come with a pricetag that reflected it. An AH would not change that. Stop with the gloom and doom.

Please explain to me what safeguards you'd put in place to prevent an AH from turning out like every other MMO's AH then? How do you prevent automated sell-bots engaging in penny wars? This is not the first time I'm asking this question, but I'm really hoping for this to be the first time someone answers with something other than "people wouldn't do that" or some handwavey condescension about "economics 101" (which I've taken, and which more supports my position than the opposite).

Anotherone773 · July 2020

@Tigerseye

The crafting part isn't the issue - it's the travelling from guild store to guild store, for very little of an item at a time, if any is left (at a reasonable price) by the time you get there, at all.

1) Use TTC to find items.
2) Dont ever going to the place selling the cheapest and expect it to be there when you get there.
3) Dont buy things you need when you need them, buy them before you need them. I browse my guild items 2-3 times a day. I stop at traders outside of trade hubs and browse their wares for a few minutes. I buy things i dont need right now, but will later. If i know im going to be furnishing a house this winter when i got more free time i will start buying and stockpiling mats right now. Trading is a business, if you piddle with it, you are going to get piddly squat out of it.

Well, it drives me insane to read what you have done to my post and the way you write like you are on an old fashioned typewriter, typing on paper.

The double spacing is an internet thing.

Its not an internet thing, On this forum do you see ANYONE else double spacing every single line ? It looks like a bunch of random thoughts.

It's supposed to be easier on the eyes.

Its not. It makes you harder to follow and gives me scroll finger cramps. I dont know how it is in other browsers but if you want easier on the eyes and use firefox, you can hold down CTRL on your keyboard and use the scroll wheel to make pages and their words bigger.

I'm surprised you haven't got used to it by now, as most people write their emails that way and have for years/decades.

No one writes that way. No one on this forum, no one i do business with, no one my wife does business with( and she deals with people all over the world). The programs we use to write text spaces it properly for you.

...and no, I'm (obviously) not playing on PTS, I'm playing on PC/EU.

You could use TTC to search for things you need then. You have a global search feature so you dont need to go from trader to trader to find a few items. Use me to search I even made sure its set on PC EU for you.

AlnilamE · July 2020

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

knightblaster wrote: »

What players don't understand is that you are not supposed to "casually participate" in the trading system. The trading system is designed as a full-blown playstyle system that requires a good deal of time and effort -- not as a general marketplace system. ESO doesn't support a general marketplace system -- it supports a time and effort intensive trading-as-playstyle system. The developers fully expect that everyone else who doesn't want to play that playstyle is to vendor their items and move along.

Then it a huge failure in the game. Things in the game like this should enable players, not gate it only for the "serious players".

Gate Trials and such, don't gate trading. Is that so hard to understand?

I disagree with the person you are quoting. The system does absolutely support casual trading. I personally trade to get rid of things I get from playing the game that I think other people might need. Only on occasion have I listed things like mats and improvers to keep my slots filled.

(I was going to quote them originally, but I was about 5 pages behind reading the thread).

ZOS_GregoryV · July 2020

Greetings all,

After removing a handful of comments, we would like to remind everyone that all posts should be kept on the subject at hand. Comments should also be kept civil, constructive, and within the Community rules. If there may be any question in regards to the rules, please feel free to take a few moments to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

Tigerseye · July 2020

I already use TTC, Anotherone.

I played at launch, then left and have been back for 3 years in August.

I don't necessarily expect to find anything, at all, even at an average TTC price - that's the problem.

Just before Elsweyr launched there were no Mundane Runes for anything less than 1000g each, lol.

I don't need big letters - I have good eyesight (and want to keep it that way).

I deal with people all over the world, too and have personally seen people with spaces between their lines, on this forum (on other threads), today and very pleasant it was to read, too.

Most of the people I have worked with are based in the US and almost all double space when they are writing online and in emails.

Inserting a space between lines is not against forum rules, as far as I know.

Hope that has answered all your points.

Tigerseye · July 2020

By the way, Anotherone, re. Heartwood (since you asked), if you check out TTC, you would lucky to be able to get it for 100g each on PC/EU:

https://eu.tamrieltradecentre.com/pc/Trade/SearchResult?ItemID=11971&ItemNamePattern=Heartwood&SortBy=LastSeen&Order=desc&page=1

There is almost nothing below that and the average price is currently 108.55g, according to TTC.

So, I don't know why you would think I would be trying to get it for 5g - 10g?

I used to pay 40g two years ago - that was the average price back then.

Nord_Raseri · July 2020

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

[img][/img]

"Although there is no progress without change, not all change is progress" - John Wooden.

VoluptaBox · July 2020

Anotherone773 wrote: »

@Tigerseye

The crafting part isn't the issue - it's the travelling from guild store to guild store, for very little of an item at a time, if any is left (at a reasonable price) by the time you get there, at all.

1) Use TTC to find items.

What about console? My main gripe with the whole system is how much of a chore is finding any item that isn't super duper common (and has nothing to do with price). Spending 40 minutes checking a ton of traders in the hope of maybe finding that one rare item I desire, daily, is taking away some of my will to play (and please, 'you don't have to do it' is not an argument).

I simply want the act of finding and buying items to be less time consuming and frustrating. Sadly, the simplest way of doing that would eat away at the current system and would take away the value of the highly desirable trader locations. That's not necessarily what I want. Maybe add a sort of billboard that allows one to search for items from all of the guild traders within the same zone, as even hoping through all of them can be a chore, especially if searching for multiple items.

I personally enjoy the idea of an AH, but I do get why people oppose it. A more streamlined system would benefit everyone, I believe.

chess1ukb16_ESO · July 2020

Not every game should be a clone. The unique trading system in this game is a lot of fun and offers many indirect benefits to the overall economy, most noticeably it keeps inflation in check.

I also got to acquire billions of gold!!

Jokes aside, having to rely on addons to radically improve the gaming experience in this area is not really ok; especially with a large console player base.

It is hard to be hopeful for quality of life improvements, however, as it would take significant development and testing and is not in line with Zenimax goal of churning out new stuff as a priority over improving old content/game mechanics.

So suck it up because ain't changing.

Castian · July 2020

I have mixed feelings about having a central AH. I have only ever had one experience with one and that was Final Fantasy Online for about five or six years. You could only post 7 items at a time with a 7 day time limit and you were blind bidding while viewing price history.

The singular advantage I give to having a central AH would be convenience. Shopping in EOS is akin to a quest. I have at times spent up to 30 minutes shopping to find what I was looking for as I worked my way through the listings on TTC. I really dislike shopping in this game for that reason and it motivated my choice to develop my crafting to limit the necessity of going out shopping.

The draw back is what would happen to the pricing market. Common items that sell at regular intervals usually stay level without constant undercutting, but large ticket items that bear heavier taxes and slower rate of sale typically instigates a race to the bottom mentality to unload the product. I question how much more severe this would be here.

Leveling crafts is a joke for the most part. Researching traits is the only time consuming element involved, as such just about anyone can be a full fledged crafter in many professions. FFXI, skilling crafts was tedious and expensive. Decon-ing four skill lines to max made me laugh when I reflected on what I had to do before. This would mean a far more massive amount of supply from the crafters on AH.

The supply from the non-crafted is a similar issue. Because looting rights are designated by damage instead of claiming the target, that creates massive amounts of supply. 38 pages of legion zero hands outfit for example.

I think a Central AH would fail the economy because of the amount of supply. Even if it did move away from guild traders to allow everyone access, everyone managing to sell might stretch the imagination. Price gouging is rather impressive in this game and the AH would help to align for player benefit, but a crash on item value just to sell instead of standing in line behind thousands of other players is very likely.

AWinterWolf · July 2020

I can just imagine the lag if we had an auction house.

ZaroktheImmortal · July 2020

chess1ukb16_ESO wrote: »

Not every game should be a clone. The unique trading system in this game is a lot of fun and offers many indirect benefits to the overall economy, most noticeably it keeps inflation in check.

I also got to acquire billions of gold!!

Jokes aside, having to rely on addons to radically improve the gaming experience in this area is not really ok; especially with a large console player base.

It is hard to be hopeful for quality of life improvements, however, as it would take significant development and testing and is not in line with Zenimax goal of churning out new stuff as a priority over improving old content/game mechanics.

So suck it up because ain't changing.

And you know for a fact it isn't changing how exactly? Unless you work for ZOS I doubt you know that and given they've changed their minds on a lot of things they've said in the past wouldn't happen well even if you did you wouldn't know if they'd change their minds later down the track.

ZaroktheImmortal · July 2020

AWinterWolf wrote: »

I can just imagine the lag if we had an auction house.

...how exactly does taking away guilds for trader requirements add to lag? Is there some special force behind guilds holding lag back that I'm not aware of?

TooWeak2Live · July 2020

Waaah, I can't just sit my script bot in one place and auto-buy/resell items. What a horrible system!

BRCOURTN · July 2020

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

chess1ukb16_ESO wrote: »

Not every game should be a clone. The unique trading system in this game is a lot of fun and offers many indirect benefits to the overall economy, most noticeably it keeps inflation in check.

I also got to acquire billions of gold!!

Jokes aside, having to rely on addons to radically improve the gaming experience in this area is not really ok; especially with a large console player base.

It is hard to be hopeful for quality of life improvements, however, as it would take significant development and testing and is not in line with Zenimax goal of churning out new stuff as a priority over improving old content/game mechanics.

So suck it up because ain't changing.

And you know for a fact it isn't changing how exactly? Unless you work for ZOS I doubt you know that and given they've changed their minds on a lot of things they've said in the past wouldn't happen well even if you did you wouldn't know if they'd change their minds later down the track.

They just have a tendency to not change things they've doubled down on, and they really like their trading system. I think they're proud of it, and so am I. Its at the very least unique. Plus many players have put thousands of dollars and hours into their trading guilds. These are the whales. Do you think ZOS would make them unhappy?

ZaroktheImmortal · July 2020

BRCOURTN wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

chess1ukb16_ESO wrote: »

Not every game should be a clone. The unique trading system in this game is a lot of fun and offers many indirect benefits to the overall economy, most noticeably it keeps inflation in check.

I also got to acquire billions of gold!!

Jokes aside, having to rely on addons to radically improve the gaming experience in this area is not really ok; especially with a large console player base.

It is hard to be hopeful for quality of life improvements, however, as it would take significant development and testing and is not in line with Zenimax goal of churning out new stuff as a priority over improving old content/game mechanics.

So suck it up because ain't changing.

And you know for a fact it isn't changing how exactly? Unless you work for ZOS I doubt you know that and given they've changed their minds on a lot of things they've said in the past wouldn't happen well even if you did you wouldn't know if they'd change their minds later down the track.

They just have a tendency to not change things they've doubled down on, and they really like their trading system. I think they're proud of it, and so am I. Its at the very least unique. Plus many players have put thousands of dollars and hours into their trading guilds. These are the whales. Do you think ZOS would make them unhappy?

They said we wouldn't get vampire lord form. That happened. They said we wouldn't get dragons. That happened. So yeah, they kind of do.

ZaroktheImmortal · July 2020

TooWeak2Live wrote: »

Waaah, I can't just sit my script bot in one place and auto-buy/resell items. What a horrible system!

Waaaaa if they do this everyone would be able to trade and I'd have more competition waaaa I need all the gold waaaa what about all the gold I can make what a horrible system changing it would be it'd take away from my profits waaaaaa people are asking for a non guild trader trading system on forums again waaaa better claim it'll ruin our economy and be full of bots and that it'll destroy the game and the sky will fall and we'll all die if this happens waaaaaa

AWinterWolf · July 2020

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

AWinterWolf wrote: »

I can just imagine the lag if we had an auction house.

...how exactly does taking away guilds for trader requirements add to lag? Is there some special force behind guilds holding lag back that I'm not aware of?

Just imagine it. 100+ players all in the same area, bidding, trading or the like. You're going to tell me that 100+ players in the same space, at the same time, won't contribute to lag?

Some people I've read on here, get lag in trials and an auction house, cramming everyone inside to bet on each others items... the unlucky many will never get anything at auctions.

BlueRaven · July 2020

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

AWinterWolf wrote: »

I can just imagine the lag if we had an auction house.

...how exactly does taking away guilds for trader requirements add to lag? Is there some special force behind guilds holding lag back that I'm not aware of?

Searches at vendors are slow as it is, even with small guilds.