Why are so few pvpers?

TineaCruris · July 2020

Vanagrand wrote: »

I just found so extrange why so few people pvp on this game. Been in 2 spanish guilds, both with like a 400 people in it, around 50 actives on peak hours, still im THE ONLY ONE who plays PVP. Mostly Bgs and IC becouse of that. The rest just go to Cyro to do the daylies and same at IC.

Is the same in other comunitties? Do you know any Pact faction active on PvP on EUPC?

Performance issues, and zero communication or apparent effort to fix them.

Nemesis7884 · July 2020

West93 wrote: »

Don't like pvp? Go play Skyrim.

this is really not a productive attitude at all

attracting more people to pvp should be pvpers main goal so they get more content for pvp because without those players zos will focus resources elsewhere...

VaranisArano · July 2020

MasterSpatula wrote: »

When I PVP on my EP characters, I go with my guild. When I go DC or AD, I pug.

And after you've spent an hour following the action around, hoping you don't miss it, typing "x" and "lfg" in zone every five minutes for an hour or more, you kind of lose your taste for it.

It makes me a whole lot less sympathetic to PVPers complaining they don't get enough attention when there's an entire event designed specifically to introduce new players to their content and they treat those new players like some kind of skin disease. The noobs don't experience PVP as a group, they don't have a good time, and they don't come back. And that's on the PVPers who are unwilling to group pugs, not on ZOS.

It takes a special skill set to lead PUGs. I've done it, briefly, and I quickly discovered that its a matter of constantly:
Figuring out our next move while running the current battle
Trying to figure out where the other major groups are going
Remembering how to get from place to place when I'm the one in the lead (and on a faster horse than 90% of the PUGs)
Collecting new members to replace folks who left
Communicating in group, zone, and yell chat what people ought to do without being too abrasive
Begging people to use siege weapons
Begging people to stick together because we have strength in numbers
Begging people not to take the resources before we've flagged the keep so the enemy doesn't port there to kill us
Encouraging people to try again when we wipe
Trying not to get frustrated when we lose fights because we're scattered across the battlefield, there was little siege, and a portion of us are still riding in on their slow horses

It's hard!
Its was really fun and really stressful all at the same time.
I gave up any hope of leading PUGs again when it became clearing that I was crashing out of game too often to continue.

I remember the first time I led PUGs. It was early morning of the first Midyear Mayhem and I got Crown by virtue of being the only one in group with an idea of where to go. Halfway around the emp ring, there were PVEers in group saying "Wow, PVP is fun when you have an army!"

And it is. Cyrodiil is designed for large group play. PVP is fun when you have an army.

But after I've led PUGs, I can't begrudge anyone who doesn't. It's a lot harder than it looks. My hat is off to those zone generals who lead PUG raids regularly.

Emmagoldman · July 2020

I love pvp and have been doing it regularly, until this year in which I took a break and overall I have been playing about 5 years.

1. Lack Of development. Cyro is just boring. Same map, objectives etc. I prefer bgs, but the devs did such a half ass job and haven’t added any new maps, let alone objects. I personally feel the objective and game design should be rethought and mini objectives and pvp zones added through Tameriel. I feel like cyro would be the same if the devs stopped making pve content after Craglorn trials and imperial city. It’s just bland now

2. Balance. Patch after patch, such wild swings. I have a bunch of toons and a busy life. It’s annoying that a patch can leave well thought out builds in the dust. Maybe it’s the nature of mmos, in order to sell new content, to just have more op stuff. But for having “matrix’s” and heavy formulas and stats for damage, that for sure goes out the window.

3. I prefer no cp, but its way less active now and cp is a joke. Huge damage and mitigation. Cp was turned off years ago and never looked at again.

4. Performance. I have a busy life and family. When I play, it’s really my limited time that I’m free. Sitting in load screens isn’t fun. Lagging when there are high damage abilities isn’t fun.

At this point I log on time to time. I’m enjoying other games a lot more right now

Emmagoldman · July 2020

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Complaining about builds being powerful in PvP is a super weak argument against PvP.

The exact same thing is true for PvE except even more so (hello Mother's Sorrow, False God's, Zaan on basically every Magicka class and Relequen, Lokke, Selene's on every Stamina class).

Half of the intrigue of PvP is scheming up new builds that use sets that you would never even dream to make use of in PvE. It is an intellectually rewarding pursuit to take a build from theorycrafting to domination at its intended purpose.

Most above-average PvP'ers have thought far more about their builds than PvE'ers who typically just copy whatever the meta hotness is at any given time. And that's understandable because the meta in PvE is the mathematical best at damage over time whereas in PvP defining what goal you are pursuing for your build is far more open-ended and has to take into account, at the very least, a mix of offense and defense because PvP opponents actually fight back.

So yes, a PvE player wearing full Divines and 16k Health will get deleted in PvP by a player with a better PvP build. And that's as it should be. I can't walk into vHoF either wearing Mark of the Pariah, Titanborn Strength, and Bloodspawn and expect to be very effective in the group.

And PvE'ers can be just as mouthy and toxic as any PvP'er. To suggest otherwise is to promote a misconception.

Really good point. I think the aspect of builds can be explored more. There are way more builds on the pvp side, yet the meta shifts so back and forth it can be annoying. You spend a patch trying a build, Golding weapons and then play to see how it performs and fix it again. Then a patch comes along and can leave the whole build in the dust. It’s hard to have a feeling of growth when you are back to the drawing boards every couple of months. I love theorycrafting as well, but I just don’t have the time to keep up

Nemesis7884 · July 2020

I vastly prefer no cp pvp as i feel its more balanced and allows for more varied builds, id probably disable cp in all cyrodiil campaigns too...whats the general community stance on this (as I am rather new to pvp)

TooWeak2Live · July 2020

I would have answered this earlier, but i was stuck in a chain of load screens.

Nothing more need be said.

Milli_Rabbit · July 2020

People don't like to PvP for two major reasons:

1) They came to the game because of their history with Elder Scrolls games which are generally solo RPGs. Therefore, the population you are advertising to likely was not interested in PvP.

2) PvP has a large skill curve. In PvE, there is a simple and gradual progression of difficulty in content. In PvP, you need to have the right gear from the get-go, you need to face opponents who are organized and challenging (sometimes impossible at your skill level), and you don't really get to choose your opponent nor how many of them nor their CP. Objectives are miles apart. Effective group play requires communication. PvE requires this only at the high end of content. So, many people just stick with simple, easy content.

My guess would be PvE players with significant high end content experience are the most likely to attempt PvP other than people who already enjoyed PvP in gaming.

Hallothiel · July 2020

Burtan wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

It makes me a whole lot less sympathetic to PVPers complaining they don't get enough attention when there's an entire event designed specifically to introduce new players to their content and they treat those new players like some kind of skin disease. The noobs don't experience PVP as a group, they don't have a good time, and they don't come back. And that's on the PVPers who are unwilling to group pugs, not on ZOS.

that's like saying endgame PvE raid groups should take my 20k dps PvP build with them to vet trials.

Rubbish. Nonsensical comparison.

My pvp guild is quite happy to include ‘noobs’ to give them a taste of pvp fun. Also quite happy to grab randoms ‘lfg’s in zone.

Unless running a specific ball group, being in a group of mixed ability players is a fantastic way of learning about pvp.

So to the OP, find a pvp-specific guild?
And always bring siege 😉

Nemesis7884 · July 2020

Milli_Rabbit wrote: »

People don't like to PvP for two major reasons:

1) They came to the game because of their history with Elder Scrolls games which are generally solo RPGs. Therefore, the population you are advertising to likely was not interested in PvP.

2) PvP has a large skill curve. In PvE, there is a simple and gradual progression of difficulty in content. In PvP, you need to have the right gear from the get-go, you need to face opponents who are organized and challenging (sometimes impossible at your skill level), and you don't really get to choose your opponent nor how many of them nor their CP. Objectives are miles apart. Effective group play requires communication. PvE requires this only at the high end of content. So, many people just stick with simple, easy content.

My guess would be PvE players with significant high end content experience are the most likely to attempt PvP other than people who already enjoyed PvP in gaming.

this is why i would introduce non gear dependent non cp low skill pvp games as an entry for non hardcore pvp'ers that want to try it...I feel GW2 did that really successful...

Alomar · July 2020

We all left after being treated like 5th rate costumers for years. No new content, horrible balancing with long gaps in between, hundreds of bugs, worsening performance for 4 years in a row, lack of communication on these issues and more, etc.

If you're a pvper and you allow a company to treat you like that you wouldn't value your time and/or money very highly.

colossalvoids · July 2020

mairwen85 wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

the one with the stragglers mythic item, and malacath band that I probably can't mention here

I keep seeing people mention this but no one wants to elaborate or say why these items are buggy or exploitable. Also no mention of them in reported bugs or being discussed anywhere outside of a small group of PvPers bemoaning their existence. Yet supposedly people have an issue with how they are 'exploited', but rather than report or expose that, they just mention it with a nudge and a wink 🤷

Because why there should be even more people doing so? Also it's all reported along with other bugs by multiple people so it's just a matter of time now. Depends if zos have any time for that nowadays instead of... I'm not ready for a ban yet so you probably got an idea anyway, insert any meaningful bashing.

Sylosi · July 2020

It's very simple, the PvP is not very good.

The basis of good, fun and skilled PvP is competitiveness, not in some "e-sport" sense, but merely that the participants are of a similar level of ability, experience, attitude, etc, ESO (and MMORPGs in general) is very bad at that, which makes for dull, unsatisfying, low skilled PvP much of the time.

WombatNipples65 · July 2020

Because ZoS continually ruin the performance patch on patch even though they are doing so called "Performance Updates". We barely get any content updates, but at this point we don't care and all we want is some performance.

vamp_emily · July 2020

I blame Zeni why players tend to leave PvP.

ESO PvP is fun but when you can't fire skills off it is "NOT FUN". I was hitting keys several times just to try and get a skill to go off and in the end if there were more than one person fighting me I would just die. Since I quit, my fingers feel 1000% better.

Population gaps. Who in their right mind enjoys not having a chance to win when nobody is playing on their alliance? 1 bar vs a poplock is not fun.

I can't believe "skill gap" is an issue because when I first started playing I didn't know who was on my alliance and who was the enemy. I wore white and green gear. My skill points were all over the place, and I had a mag character that was playing stam. However, I still played for 5 years and never was that great when I left. I still had fun until the game performance ruined it.

Princess_Ciri · July 2020

If I log into Cyrodil and notice that it takes more than 5 seconds for a skill to fire I log back out again.

Some campaigns lag less than others, but they all can be bad sometimes.

Burtan · July 2020

Hallothiel wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

It makes me a whole lot less sympathetic to PVPers complaining they don't get enough attention when there's an entire event designed specifically to introduce new players to their content and they treat those new players like some kind of skin disease. The noobs don't experience PVP as a group, they don't have a good time, and they don't come back. And that's on the PVPers who are unwilling to group pugs, not on ZOS.

that's like saying endgame PvE raid groups should take my 20k dps PvP build with them to vet trials.

Rubbish. Nonsensical comparison.

My pvp guild is quite happy to include ‘noobs’ to give them a taste of pvp fun. Also quite happy to grab randoms ‘lfg’s in zone.

Unless running a specific ball group, being in a group of mixed ability players is a fantastic way of learning about pvp.

So to the OP, find a pvp-specific guild?
And always bring siege 😉

If you wanna group all those lost souls wearing relequen with 20k HP that die every 3s in a 4v15 fight, be my guest

Shantu · July 2020

It's simple. Too much frustration...not enough fun.

zergbase_ESO · July 2020

Vanagrand wrote: »

I just found so extrange why so few people pvp on this game. Been in 2 spanish guilds, both with like a 400 people in it, around 50 actives on peak hours, still im THE ONLY ONE who plays PVP. Mostly Bgs and IC becouse of that. The rest just go to Cyro to do the daylies and same at IC.

Is the same in other comunitties? Do you know any Pact faction active on PvP on EUPC?

I stopped because performance issues drove me out. I’m good I just avoid that aspect of the game.

Maxx7410 · July 2020

Cyrodiil lag is horrible even worse to people with high ping from the start is so bad that with few people cant be played

Arunei · July 2020

mairwen85 wrote: »

I keep seeing people mention this but no one wants to elaborate or say why these items are buggy or exploitable. Also no mention of them in reported bugs or being discussed anywhere outside of a small group of PvPers bemoaning their existence. Yet supposedly people have an issue with how they are 'exploited', but rather than report or expose that, they just mention it with a nudge and a wink 🤷

I mean...that's probably because I'm pretty sure it's against forum rules to spread the details of an exploit, because then obviously the more people who know about it, the more people will use it. There's no need to go into the details of how something can be exploited, since even if it's not against the rules to do so, I'm certain there've been cases where posts detailing things have been edited to remove said details.

Now in the case of bugs, that's hit or miss. Bugs that can't be exploited and thus turned into exploits should certainly be explained in detail so the devs can fix them. Details of exploits belong in privated videos and ticket reports to minimize the spread and use of them.

Burtan wrote: »

that's like saying endgame PvE raid groups should take my 20k dps PvP build with them to vet trials.

I'm not sure if it was you or another player I've seen this sentiment from, but I'll say the same thing here I said when I saw it before; this comparison is horrible. In endgame raid groups you have twelve slots to fill, a very limited number. People wanting to clear the harder trials are therefore obviously going to want to get in experienced players with good gear to maximize their chances of getting through those trials.

In PvP, the player cap you can have on your 'team' is much higher than twelve. In PvP, you don't have complicated mechanics that people need to be familiar with that could wipe your whole group in seconds. In PvE you can work your way through harder content, you can build up to stuff if that's what you want to do, and it tends to be easier to do. In PvP, there are people with your mindset that 'noobs aren't worth training or helping get better', and do you know what that does? It makes it frustrating for people to really learn PvP and get the hang of it, because people treat the less experienced players like garbage who don't have the right to be there. And that, in turn, doesn't do anything to make most people want to keep PvPing.

Granted this isn't a problem exclusive to PvP, there are players in PvE who are just as bad, but when we have a thread go up asking PvEers to "stay out of Grey Host if you're just getting tickets" during one of only two PvP events, what kind of message do you think that sends to those players? One of the reasons for this event is to 'encourage' PvEers to try Cyrodiil (and BG/IC I suppose), and while some people in that thread were suggesting using a less populated campaign if they wanted to avoid potentially getting killed by other players, there were plenty of others who had it in their heads that Grey Host belongs exclusively to PvPers. If you want more people coming from PvE to PvP with, maybe don't tell them that they're essentially useless and just taking up space when they come to take part in an event. Even if someone is just coming for tickets, there's a chance they might decide to give the PvP itself a try, so long as they aren't made to feel like they aren't welcome just because regular PvPers think they have more rights to be in any given campaign.

BXR_Lonestar · July 2020

When you say PVP, you should be more specific (i.e., are you talking about battlegrounds or cyrodil?). The reason I say this is because I love playing PVP in Cyrodil, and I absolutely do not like PVP in battlegrounds. I know some people are totally opposite.

With that said, I'm in a guild who used to be hardcore PVP players. In Cyrodil we used to average 30-40 players a night. Now? we're lucky to get a quarter of that. And that is mainly due to the performance issues in Cyrodil. Most players get kicked from the game on average of 4-5 times in a 1-2 hour session. That makes playing in Cyrodil frustrating because AP and EXP is awarded after you achieve an objective (i.e., capture farm, capture keep, etc.). Often times, you'll participate in a large scale battle, only to be kicked right before awards are given out, so you miss out completely. Even if you do happen to get rewards, your still fighting constant stalls, lag, and other issues that make combat much less fluid and enjoyable.

In the most egregious cases, you will get kicked, and when you log on, you've been completely removed from Cyrodil, and your forced to endure a long que before you can get back in.

Bottom line - at least as far as Cyrodil Goes - if you (meaning Bethesda/Zenimax) wants more people to play PVP in Cyrodil, they're going to have to fix the performance issues. I think adding more bandwidth/servers would go a long way, as performance issues have been better (at least for me) during Midyear Mayhem when there are more servers offered.

Karmanorway · July 2020

1. They nerf everything good because according to them, these buffs are too easy access and OP. So instead they build in major defile, major protection, superior healing and and tankiness into New classes locked behind paywalls, and yes warden and necro are p2w.

2. The server performance obviously, you want to finish a Dizzy swing but instead it looks like u are taking a long good dump.

3. The 3 Alliance system sucks, i mean yeah its so fun to spend half an hour on a EP keep for a big fat tick, then AD ballgroup comes just at the last minute and steals it. Or the fact that EP and AD often work together to bring DC Down because we are too skilled for them.

4. Class Identity sucks, Dizzy Dizzy Dizzy

5. New sets and nerfs are coming regularly TO MAKE ZERGS STRONGER, AND SOLO PLAYERS WEAKER. Its like if a teacher gave bully Groups some baseball bats to beat up the new kid

6. So called experienced and skilled pvp players abusing snipe desyncs and exploits, and even have the guts to use that exploit as their character name because they know zos dont care. You think thats a bit discouraging for the rest of us?

I have many other reasons, but i dont bother, i just gets more and more annoyed the more i type lol

BoraxFlux · July 2020

@Vanagrand , I know a few Pact PvP Guilds @ PC-EU NoCP. If you're interested I'll send you a PM.
Have you tried it via GuildFinder btw?

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

For me, PVP is the worst part of this game.

I dabble in it, but for the most part it is simply not enjoyable. You have to have a very specific PVP style build in order to even have a chance, and that's not how I enjoy playing RPG's.

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Complaining about builds being powerful in PvP is a super weak argument against PvP.

The exact same thing is true for PvE except even more so (hello Mother's Sorrow, False God's, Zaan on basically every Magicka class and Relequen, Lokke, Selene's on every Stamina class).

Half of the intrigue of PvP is scheming up new builds that use sets that you would never even dream to make use of in PvE. It is an intellectually rewarding pursuit to take a build from theorycrafting to domination at its intended purpose.

Most above-average PvP'ers have thought far more about their builds than PvE'ers who typically just copy whatever the meta hotness is at any given time. And that's understandable because the meta in PvE is the mathematical best at damage over time whereas in PvP defining what goal you are pursuing for your build is far more open-ended and has to take into account, at the very least, a mix of offense and defense because PvP opponents actually fight back.

So yes, a PvE player wearing full Divines and 16k Health will get deleted in PvP by a player with a better PvP build. And that's as it should be. I can't walk into vHoF either wearing Mark of the Pariah, Titanborn Strength, and Bloodspawn and expect to be very effective in the group.

And PvE'ers can be just as mouthy and toxic as any PvP'er. To suggest otherwise is to promote a misconception.

I disagree with this 100%

In my experience, regardless of "meta", PVE gives you far more flexibility in being able to create different off-meta builds and still be successful than PVP. I don't currently use a single set that you have listed up there on any of my characters - no Mother's Sorrow, used to use False God's but swapped it out, never used Zaan, never used Relequen, never used Lokke, never used Selene's. I have wholly off-meta builds and have never had trouble getting through any level of PVE content due to my build.

However, in PVP, I can't even so much as *damage* anybody because all anybody ever runs is there impen + player damage resist + stun / snare / immobilize. I don't know anyone who goes off-meta in PVP. That kind of setup has 0 appeal to me, so I don't do anything more than dabble in PVP.

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

mairwen85 wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

In my case what puts me off it is the toxicity, the trolling, the general being a *** that seems to come with competitive gameplay. Actually battlegrounds I don't mind so much but the zone pvp areas just burn me out far too much.

I've encountered just as much toxicity in PvE to be fair. bIt's just a different type of it.

Can confirm. I am a mostly PVE player, but the PVE community can also be very toxic.

There are good and bad on both sides, tbh, I don't see the toxicity as so much PVE or PVP, but rather, just the nature of online gaming that has varying layers of competition.

Luckily, there's lots of positive people in the community as well, on both sides - PVE and PVP alike. I am associated in game with many of them.

Vanagrand · July 2020

volkeswagon wrote: »

yeah my impression is pvpers are dinks. That's from my experience. Especially those EP's.

Why do you think that way? C

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Complaining about builds being powerful in PvP is a super weak argument against PvP.

The exact same thing is true for PvE except even more so (hello Mother's Sorrow, False God's, Zaan on basically every Magicka class and Relequen, Lokke, Selene's on every Stamina class).

Half of the intrigue of PvP is scheming up new builds that use sets that you would never even dream to make use of in PvE. It is an intellectually rewarding pursuit to take a build from theorycrafting to domination at its intended purpose.

Most above-average PvP'ers have thought far more about their builds than PvE'ers who typically just copy whatever the meta hotness is at any given time. And that's understandable because the meta in PvE is the mathematical best at damage over time whereas in PvP defining what goal you are pursuing for your build is far more open-ended and has to take into account, at the very least, a mix of offense and defense because PvP opponents actually fight back.

So yes, a PvE player wearing full Divines and 16k Health will get deleted in PvP by a player with a better PvP build. And that's as it should be. I can't walk into vHoF either wearing Mark of the Pariah, Titanborn Strength, and Bloodspawn and expect to be very effective in the group.

And PvE'ers can be just as mouthy and toxic as any PvP'er. To suggest otherwise is to promote a misconception.

I disagree with this 100%

In my experience, regardless of "meta", PVE gives you far more flexibility in being able to create different off-meta builds and still be successful than PVP. I don't currently use a single set that you have listed up there on any of my characters - no Mother's Sorrow, used to use False God's but swapped it out, never used Zaan, never used Relequen, never used Lokke, never used Selene's. I have wholly off-meta builds and have never had trouble getting through any level of PVE content due to my build.

However, in PVP, I can't even so much as *damage* anybody because all anybody ever runs is there impen + player damage resist + stun / snare / immobilize. I don't know anyone who goes off-meta in PVP. That kind of setup has 0 appeal to me, so I don't do anything more than dabble in PVP.

You are comparing sets in PVE with traits in PVP. Have you been using anything other than divine? In pvp there a lot of diferent builds. Speaking about what i domine, with elfbane, without, with grothdar, with balrogh, new moon acolite, vigor, with or without maca...

There are sets for every single playstile.

relentless_turnip · July 2020

Aside from performance, it is a fantastic experience. It has been a terrible experience since u25 in February. It is actually the best PvP I have ever experienced... When it works...

Despite what others say, it is highly skilled and requires a lot of time to be competitive. Anyone that says otherwise would rather point fingers than be critical of them selves enough to get better. I am saying this from someone has taken that journey.

Build diversity is in a good place this patch, despite what other people may say... These people could be handed a "meta" build(as they describe it) and still get stomped. This is an MMO, so it is more than possible to make many terrible builds, but this patch especially I have found myself surprised by builds on a near daily basis and have had to adapt.

Tigerseye · July 2020

With the performance and crashing I have to deal with, even in PVE, there is no way I am doing PVP in this game.

Also, I can't move the way I can in other games, in this game.

I have to move my character and my camera separately.

I'm used to it, now, but it's still not ideal and does not make me feel inclined to take it into PVP.

I don't play the right kind of class for the way I typically PVP, either and am not drawn to any others.

It's OKish for PVE and that is about it.