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Animation cancelling
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BRCOURTN✭✭✭✭✭
You can not claim that 'AC and fast combat aren't synonymous' is just an opinion,
I read it again before my last reply and my comment you just replied to was most certainly accurate. I think it is one's perspective on what they might get out of it.
I suggest you read it again. I never said it could not exist without AC. I merely pointed out one of your statements of opinion.
Thank you since I was not creating a false narrative by any measure.
I respect your opinion too, but I will not stand for dismissing facts as opinions to create some false narrative.
I respect your opinion on the matter. Even the comment that AC is not synonymous with fast-paced combat is an opinion. We clearly have different opinions and can probably spend days coming up with 'facts" to support our thoughts on the matter.
Erm, no. What I wrote is a simple fact.
You are entitled to your opinion but "spazzing out" is just that.
Erm... there is a difference between fast paced combat and spazzing out your character with animation canceling.
Not the case. Zos could have fixed it by simplifying combat to make ESO like old combat systems like WoW and FF14. They decided that the robust and active combat system we have in ESO was more desirable. It really is that simple since combat in this game is one of the key features that separates ESO from other major MMORPG titles. A key part of ESO's success.Animation canceling is a typical "bug turned feature" in ESO. They never got around fixing it, so they just declared it to be a normal thing...
Fast paced combat doesn't have to involve seizures that display a character writhing in jittery motions as they fire of LAs from weapons that pop in and out of existence between their hands being busy casting other animations, nor does it involve a weapon that gets barely held but disappears immediately after it was barswapped and still resulting in a completed AoE. That is objectively a glitchy animation, and damage that registers off of incomplete casts is a bug, whether it was embraced or not.
AC isn't synonymous with fast paced combat. (Fact)
It's rather sad if ESO devs and players can't imagine any other way. (This part is an opinion).
Your suggested (false) narrative was to deny that fast paced combat can exist without AC, and to frame all proof to the contrary as some 'opinion' that can be handwaved away because ah well, people have different opinions.
I respect your opinion on the matter. Even the comment that AC is not synonymous with fast-paced combat is an opinion. We clearly have different opinions and can probably spend days coming up with 'facts" to support our thoughts on the matter.
Erm, no. What I wrote is a simple fact.
You are entitled to your opinion but "spazzing out" is just that.
Erm... there is a difference between fast paced combat and spazzing out your character with animation canceling.
Not the case. Zos could have fixed it by simplifying combat to make ESO like old combat systems like WoW and FF14. They decided that the robust and active combat system we have in ESO was more desirable. It really is that simple since combat in this game is one of the key features that separates ESO from other major MMORPG titles. A key part of ESO's success.Animation canceling is a typical "bug turned feature" in ESO. They never got around fixing it, so they just declared it to be a normal thing... Fast paced combat doesn't have to involve seizures that display a character writhing in jittery motions as they fire of LAs from weapons that pop in and out of existence between their hands being busy casting other animations, nor does it involve a weapon that gets barely held but disappears immediately after it was barswapped and still resulting in a completed AoE. That is objectively a glitchy animation, and damage that registers off of incomplete casts is a bug, whether it was embraced or not.
AC isn't synonymous with fast paced combat. (Fact)
It's rather sad if ESO devs and players can't imagine any other way. (This part is an opinion).
At that, I will not continue with derailing the thread with the back and forth of opinions as I do not expect this to go anywhere meaningful.
Animation cancelling is not required to have fast-paced combat. But you're still allowed to like it! Just don't try to shut down discussion by pretending that 'Fast combat = AC' is a necessity and everything else is 'just an opinion'.
Have a good day and enjoy the game.
I suggest you read it again. Because you most certainly did write that..
Even the comment that AC is not synonymous with fast-paced combat is an opinion. We clearly have different opinions and can probably spend days coming up with 'facts" to support our thoughts on the matter.
Erm, no. What I wrote is a simple fact.
You are entitled to your opinion but "spazzing out" is just that.
Erm... there is a difference between fast paced combat and spazzing out your character with animation canceling.
Not the case. Zos could have fixed it by simplifying combat to make ESO like old combat systems like WoW and FF14. They decided that the robust and active combat system we have in ESO was more desirable. It really is that simple since combat in this game is one of the key features that separates ESO from other major MMORPG titles. A key part of ESO's success.Animation canceling is a typical "bug turned feature" in ESO. They never got around fixing it, so they just declared it to be a normal thing... Fast paced combat doesn't have to involve seizures that display a character writhing in jittery motions as they fire of LAs from weapons that pop in and out of existence between their hands being busy casting other animations, nor does it involve a weapon that gets barely held but disappears immediately after it was barswapped and still resulting in a completed AoE. That is objectively a glitchy animation, and damage that registers off of incomplete casts is a bug, whether it was embraced or not.
AC isn't synonymous with fast paced combat. (Fact)
It's rather sad if ESO devs and players can't imagine any other way. (This part is an opinion).
Regardless, this discussion is nothing more than a difference in opinion and as such is not going anywhere. As I said before, I respect you have an opinion and respect your opinion and will leave it at that.
then later claim that you never said that AC was needed for fast combat,
and continue calling my proposal for the possibility of AC-less fast combat an 'opinion'.
You're either contradicting yourself, backtracking, or phrased it poorly. Since you cling to the 'it's just an opinion' dismissal once again, I'll give up on you too since there is little point to your objections.
For the thread itself though:
AC can make combat faster, but fast combat doesn't require AC and can exist without it.
So AC and fast combat aren't synonymous. (See my Fire Mage video for proof which is just as fast ESO).
The way ESO happens to make their combat faster than normal is by allowing animation cancelled skills to still land their damage. Now, people are free to like this system, that's perfectly fine. Normally when a game requires quick reactions, animation cancelling is allowed, but it doesn't allow both actions to land their damage in that case.
Because let's consider: what scenario needs you to land LA damage at the same time as a damage spammable skill? There is an argument to be made for needing to Block or dodgeroll in the middle of attacking, but in that case the game should register your Block but not allow your attack to complete if it had its animation interrupted.
Yet ESO adds cast times and lengthy animations to its skills while they expect them to be cancelled. That is illogical and shows that the game wasn't built for fast-paced combat, they just left the bug in it. If they want fast-paced combat, getting off 1 skill and 1 LA per second, then adjust skill animation length so that all of them finish within 1 second, and adjust LA to be smoother when spammed between everything else. Or create instant off-the-GCD skills that would be allowed to fire during other skills. That would make it smoother and intentional, rather than this leftover bug from an ill-thought-out code.
Note that I'm not campaigning to make combat slower, or even to remove the concept of AC, just a recognition of the fact that ESO's combat is far more jittery and contradictory (why have long animations if they are by design supposed to be canceled before they complete?) than if was designed properly with a cohesive system in mind.
I mean to cancel animations takes one more step in the process of completing a skill cast. You used to have to know the time it would take to cancel each skill (which was different in most cases). It just adds a higher skill ceiling, and its what makes ESO combat better than most other mmo combat.3 -
Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »gatekeeper13 wrote: »It makes about as much sense as throwing fireballs at each other. Just imagine ...
This is a fantasy game, not reality. Also functionality is way more important than visuals.
It's a fantasy game which goes against it's own rules and it's own logic. You activate an ability its casting you have cancelled. It is totally absurd, like being a wizard who starts casting a spell and before even saying the words, the spell is completed.
Although it's a bug, they kept in game because they couldn't fix it and somehow became a norm. A member of ZOS staff has confessed that in a post sometime ago.
Also, I think AC is totally useless and does not make the gameplay any more interesting. E.g in Cyro it is impossible for me to AC as I do in PVE because of lag, but combat is still very exciting. I do not miss it at all.
If anything, AC makes combat less fun for me, because I feel pressured that I have to make sure I have to get every single light attack in and if I miss one it throws off the whole rotation.
Combat would be far more engaging for me if it was just removed altogether.
You just described light attack weaving, not animation canceling. Regardless you don’t have to do either of them and still be able to complete the majority of the game’s content.
So why try to take something away from other people that enjoy it when you already have a choice to not do it?
2 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »gatekeeper13 wrote: »It makes about as much sense as throwing fireballs at each other. Just imagine ...
This is a fantasy game, not reality. Also functionality is way more important than visuals.
It's a fantasy game which goes against it's own rules and it's own logic. You activate an ability its casting you have cancelled. It is totally absurd, like being a wizard who starts casting a spell and before even saying the words, the spell is completed.
Although it's a bug, they kept in game because they couldn't fix it and somehow became a norm. A member of ZOS staff has confessed that in a post sometime ago.
Also, I think AC is totally useless and does not make the gameplay any more interesting. E.g in Cyro it is impossible for me to AC as I do in PVE because of lag, but combat is still very exciting. I do not miss it at all.
If anything, AC makes combat less fun for me, because I feel pressured that I have to make sure I have to get every single light attack in and if I miss one it throws off the whole rotation.
Combat would be far more engaging for me if it was just removed altogether.
You just described light attack weaving, not animation canceling. Regardless you don’t have to do either of them and still be able to complete the majority of the game’s content.
So why try to take something away from other people that enjoy it when you already have a choice to not do it?
Because it is clumsy, an embraced bug and produces too big a gap between the people who do and don't do it.
...but, I'm not getting into this one again.
If ESO want to continue to be a laughing stock, just to keep a few people happy, not my problem.2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »gatekeeper13 wrote: »It makes about as much sense as throwing fireballs at each other. Just imagine ...
This is a fantasy game, not reality. Also functionality is way more important than visuals.
It's a fantasy game which goes against it's own rules and it's own logic. You activate an ability its casting you have cancelled. It is totally absurd, like being a wizard who starts casting a spell and before even saying the words, the spell is completed.
Although it's a bug, they kept in game because they couldn't fix it and somehow became a norm. A member of ZOS staff has confessed that in a post sometime ago.
Also, I think AC is totally useless and does not make the gameplay any more interesting. E.g in Cyro it is impossible for me to AC as I do in PVE because of lag, but combat is still very exciting. I do not miss it at all.
If anything, AC makes combat less fun for me, because I feel pressured that I have to make sure I have to get every single light attack in and if I miss one it throws off the whole rotation.
Combat would be far more engaging for me if it was just removed altogether.
You just described light attack weaving, not animation canceling. Regardless you don’t have to do either of them and still be able to complete the majority of the game’s content.
So why try to take something away from other people that enjoy it when you already have a choice to not do it?
Because it is clumsy, an embraced bug and produces too big a gap between the people who do and don't do it.
...but, I'm not getting into this one again.
If ESO want to continue to be a laughing stock, just to keep a few people happy, not my problem.
ESO is one of the most successful of the major MMORPGs out today. For the number of years this game has been out it is right on par with FF14 sales for the same duration since launch and that is a game that has an even larger gaming IP than TES.
It would seem the only laughing being done is on the way to the bank.4 -
Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »gatekeeper13 wrote: »It makes about as much sense as throwing fireballs at each other. Just imagine ...
This is a fantasy game, not reality. Also functionality is way more important than visuals.
It's a fantasy game which goes against it's own rules and it's own logic. You activate an ability its casting you have cancelled. It is totally absurd, like being a wizard who starts casting a spell and before even saying the words, the spell is completed.
Although it's a bug, they kept in game because they couldn't fix it and somehow became a norm. A member of ZOS staff has confessed that in a post sometime ago.
Also, I think AC is totally useless and does not make the gameplay any more interesting. E.g in Cyro it is impossible for me to AC as I do in PVE because of lag, but combat is still very exciting. I do not miss it at all.
If anything, AC makes combat less fun for me, because I feel pressured that I have to make sure I have to get every single light attack in and if I miss one it throws off the whole rotation.
Combat would be far more engaging for me if it was just removed altogether.
You just described light attack weaving, not animation canceling. Regardless you don’t have to do either of them and still be able to complete the majority of the game’s content.
So why try to take something away from other people that enjoy it when you already have a choice to not do it?
Because it is clumsy, an embraced bug and produces too big a gap between the people who do and don't do it.
...but, I'm not getting into this one again.
If ESO want to continue to be a laughing stock, just to keep a few people happy, not my problem.
If you’re not getting into it again and its not your problem then why do you insist on spamming the forums trying to change ac, auction houses, etc. Sounds like you’d be much happier playing a game you enjoy instead of trying to ruin this one for others.
4 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »gatekeeper13 wrote: »It makes about as much sense as throwing fireballs at each other. Just imagine ...
This is a fantasy game, not reality. Also functionality is way more important than visuals.
It's a fantasy game which goes against it's own rules and it's own logic. You activate an ability its casting you have cancelled. It is totally absurd, like being a wizard who starts casting a spell and before even saying the words, the spell is completed.
Although it's a bug, they kept in game because they couldn't fix it and somehow became a norm. A member of ZOS staff has confessed that in a post sometime ago.
Also, I think AC is totally useless and does not make the gameplay any more interesting. E.g in Cyro it is impossible for me to AC as I do in PVE because of lag, but combat is still very exciting. I do not miss it at all.
If anything, AC makes combat less fun for me, because I feel pressured that I have to make sure I have to get every single light attack in and if I miss one it throws off the whole rotation.
Combat would be far more engaging for me if it was just removed altogether.
You just described light attack weaving, not animation canceling. Regardless you don’t have to do either of them and still be able to complete the majority of the game’s content.
So why try to take something away from other people that enjoy it when you already have a choice to not do it?
Because it is clumsy, an embraced bug and produces too big a gap between the people who do and don't do it.
...but, I'm not getting into this one again.
If ESO want to continue to be a laughing stock, just to keep a few people happy, not my problem.
If you’re not getting into it again and its not your problem then why do you insist on spamming the forums trying to change ac, auction houses, etc. Sounds like you’d be much happier playing a game you enjoy instead of trying to ruin this one for others.
I'm continuing to provide my opinion on auction houses/the trading system, as that affects me.
This affects me, a bit, too, but I weave, have got used to it and am not that bothered about endgame, here, anyway.
So, even though I still think the AC/weaving situation is a joke (and I'm certainly not alone, if you do an internet search on it), I have decided to not pursue it, in earnest, anymore.
I do reserve the right to comment on it, though, if I feel like it.
Happy now?
Edited by Tigerseye on July 1, 2020 10:38PM1 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »gatekeeper13 wrote: »It makes about as much sense as throwing fireballs at each other. Just imagine ...
This is a fantasy game, not reality. Also functionality is way more important than visuals.
It's a fantasy game which goes against it's own rules and it's own logic. You activate an ability its casting you have cancelled. It is totally absurd, like being a wizard who starts casting a spell and before even saying the words, the spell is completed.
Although it's a bug, they kept in game because they couldn't fix it and somehow became a norm. A member of ZOS staff has confessed that in a post sometime ago.
Also, I think AC is totally useless and does not make the gameplay any more interesting. E.g in Cyro it is impossible for me to AC as I do in PVE because of lag, but combat is still very exciting. I do not miss it at all.
If anything, AC makes combat less fun for me, because I feel pressured that I have to make sure I have to get every single light attack in and if I miss one it throws off the whole rotation.
Combat would be far more engaging for me if it was just removed altogether.
You just described light attack weaving, not animation canceling. Regardless you don’t have to do either of them and still be able to complete the majority of the game’s content.
So why try to take something away from other people that enjoy it when you already have a choice to not do it?
Because it is clumsy, an embraced bug and produces too big a gap between the people who do and don't do it.
...but, I'm not getting into this one again.
If ESO want to continue to be a laughing stock, just to keep a few people happy, not my problem.
ESO is one of the most successful of the major MMORPGs out today. For the number of years this game has been out it is right on par with FF14 sales for the same duration since launch and that is a game that has an even larger gaming IP than TES.
It would seem the only laughing being done is on the way to the bank.
Yeah, so you keep saying...
As I keep saying, on the other hand, my friendslist would say otherwise, if you count player retention as an important factor.1 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Yeah, so you keep saying...
As I keep saying, on the other hand, my friendslist would say otherwise, if you count player retention as an important factor.
Yes your friendlist surely is the kind of evidence we all needed to make objective statements about eso, certainly not anecdotal at all......Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.4 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »
Yeah, so you keep saying...
As I keep saying, on the other hand, my friendslist would say otherwise, if you count player retention as an important factor.
Yes your friendlist surely is the kind of evidence we all needed to make objective statements about eso, certainly not anecdotal at all......
Anecdotal, or not, I'm certainly not the only one who has mentioned their dwindling friendslist.1 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Time for the obligatory repost, hopefully people decide to read it but whatever...
I would posit that a good portion of players where already "animation canceling" without even knowing simply because they were engaging with the combat system in its entirety.
Adhere to the following.....Block when you need to block, roll when you need to roll, make sure to use every GCD when possible, squeeze in your light attacks between every skill, and make sure you are on the right bar by the time your GCD is up. This is ESOs combat at it's most fundamental. If you do this you will at many points "animation cancel" throughout your time playing this game. It is not a mystery to solve, some secret tech to master or some bug to exploit.
That is the biggest misconception. This is what wrobel was talking about. Animation canceling is simply a matter of existence once all of ESOs other combat components fall into place. Its unintended in that its simply a byproduct of the systems that govern combat being executed. It's not a bug or an exploit and does not enable any potency beyond the rules set in place by the developers.
This is the main point that people fail to grasp. There is no advanced technique to master amd there is no unique skill gap that "animation canceling" produces to create some assumed layer of depth.
Block when you need to block
Dodge when you need to dodge
Make full use of the GCD when possible
Make sure you are on the right bar when the GCD is up
Make sure to incorporate a light attack before every skill
Congratulations, you are likely animation canceling.
Outside of that, there is absolutely no benefit to canceling the recovery animations of skills that occur during the GCD refresh. It does not expedite a rotation, it does not increase damage, it does not allow you to circumvent the GCD. Zos is not "removing" animation canceling because animation canceling is not something that can be removed by pure virtue of the combat system working as intended. Wrobel said it was not intentional, not because it was a bug that couldnt be fix therefore embraced, he said it was not intentional because when all the moving intended parts of ESOs combat system, that govern the combat rules that ZOS made sure were in place, superfluous animations were inevitably going to clip as a matter of fact, plain and simple.Edited by exeeter702 on July 1, 2020 11:06PM5 -
BRCOURTN✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »
Yeah, so you keep saying...
As I keep saying, on the other hand, my friendslist would say otherwise, if you count player retention as an important factor.
Yes your friendlist surely is the kind of evidence we all needed to make objective statements about eso, certainly not anecdotal at all......
Anecdotal, or not, I'm certainly not the only one who has mentioned their dwindling friendslist.
Everyone takes breaks from mmos or moves on after enough time spent. Zos is really good at attracting new players though, and this game has a long life ahead of it.1 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Anecdotal, or not, I'm certainly not the only one who has mentioned their dwindling friendslist.
Doesnt make it any more relevant Im afraid.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.2 -
bluebird✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
ESO has a higher skill ceiling than other MMOs? Since when? ESO has one of the most basic combat systems.
I mean to cancel animations takes one more step in the process of completing a skill cast. You used to have to know the time it would take to cancel each skill (which was different in most cases). It just adds a higher skill ceiling, and its what makes ESO combat better than most other mmo combat.
You can not claim that 'AC and fast combat aren't synonymous' is just an opinion,
I read it again before my last reply and my comment you just replied to was most certainly accurate. I think it is one's perspective on what they might get out of it.
I suggest you read it again. I never said it could not exist without AC. I merely pointed out one of your statements of opinion.
Thank you since I was not creating a false narrative by any measure.
I respect your opinion too, but I will not stand for dismissing facts as opinions to create some false narrative.
I respect your opinion on the matter. Even the comment that AC is not synonymous with fast-paced combat is an opinion. We clearly have different opinions and can probably spend days coming up with 'facts" to support our thoughts on the matter.
Erm, no. What I wrote is a simple fact.
You are entitled to your opinion but "spazzing out" is just that.
Erm... there is a difference between fast paced combat and spazzing out your character with animation canceling.
Not the case. Zos could have fixed it by simplifying combat to make ESO like old combat systems like WoW and FF14. They decided that the robust and active combat system we have in ESO was more desirable. It really is that simple since combat in this game is one of the key features that separates ESO from other major MMORPG titles. A key part of ESO's success.Animation canceling is a typical "bug turned feature" in ESO. They never got around fixing it, so they just declared it to be a normal thing... Fast paced combat doesn't have to involve seizures that display a character writhing in jittery motions as they fire of LAs from weapons that pop in and out of existence between their hands being busy casting other animations, nor does it involve a weapon that gets barely held but disappears immediately after it was barswapped and still resulting in a completed AoE. That is objectively a glitchy animation, and damage that registers off of incomplete casts is a bug, whether it was embraced or not.
AC isn't synonymous with fast paced combat. (Fact)
It's rather sad if ESO devs and players can't imagine any other way. (This part is an opinion).
Your suggested (false) narrative was to deny that fast paced combat can exist without AC, and to frame all proof to the contrary as some 'opinion' that can be handwaved away because ah well, people have different opinions.
I respect your opinion on the matter. Even the comment that AC is not synonymous with fast-paced combat is an opinion. We clearly have different opinions and can probably spend days coming up with 'facts" to support our thoughts on the matter.
Erm, no. What I wrote is a simple fact.
You are entitled to your opinion but "spazzing out" is just that.
Erm... there is a difference between fast paced combat and spazzing out your character with animation canceling.
Not the case. Zos could have fixed it by simplifying combat to make ESO like old combat systems like WoW and FF14. They decided that the robust and active combat system we have in ESO was more desirable. It really is that simple since combat in this game is one of the key features that separates ESO from other major MMORPG titles. A key part of ESO's success.Animation canceling is a typical "bug turned feature" in ESO. They never got around fixing it, so they just declared it to be a normal thing... Fast paced combat doesn't have to involve seizures that display a character writhing in jittery motions as they fire of LAs from weapons that pop in and out of existence between their hands being busy casting other animations, nor does it involve a weapon that gets barely held but disappears immediately after it was barswapped and still resulting in a completed AoE. That is objectively a glitchy animation, and damage that registers off of incomplete casts is a bug, whether it was embraced or not.
AC isn't synonymous with fast paced combat. (Fact)
It's rather sad if ESO devs and players can't imagine any other way. (This part is an opinion).
At that, I will not continue with derailing the thread with the back and forth of opinions as I do not expect this to go anywhere meaningful.
Animation cancelling is not required to have fast-paced combat. But you're still allowed to like it! Just don't try to shut down discussion by pretending that 'Fast combat = AC' is a necessity and everything else is 'just an opinion'.
Have a good day and enjoy the game.
I suggest you read it again. Because you most certainly did write that..
Even the comment that AC is not synonymous with fast-paced combat is an opinion. We clearly have different opinions and can probably spend days coming up with 'facts" to support our thoughts on the matter.
Erm, no. What I wrote is a simple fact.
You are entitled to your opinion but "spazzing out" is just that.
Erm... there is a difference between fast paced combat and spazzing out your character with animation canceling.
Not the case. Zos could have fixed it by simplifying combat to make ESO like old combat systems like WoW and FF14. They decided that the robust and active combat system we have in ESO was more desirable. It really is that simple since combat in this game is one of the key features that separates ESO from other major MMORPG titles. A key part of ESO's success.Animation canceling is a typical "bug turned feature" in ESO. They never got around fixing it, so they just declared it to be a normal thing... Fast paced combat doesn't have to involve seizures that display a character writhing in jittery motions as they fire of LAs from weapons that pop in and out of existence between their hands being busy casting other animations, nor does it involve a weapon that gets barely held but disappears immediately after it was barswapped and still resulting in a completed AoE. That is objectively a glitchy animation, and damage that registers off of incomplete casts is a bug, whether it was embraced or not.
AC isn't synonymous with fast paced combat. (Fact)
It's rather sad if ESO devs and players can't imagine any other way. (This part is an opinion).
Regardless, this discussion is nothing more than a difference in opinion and as such is not going anywhere. As I said before, I respect you have an opinion and respect your opinion and will leave it at that.
then later claim that you never said that AC was needed for fast combat,
and continue calling my proposal for the possibility of AC-less fast combat an 'opinion'.
You're either contradicting yourself, backtracking, or phrased it poorly. Since you cling to the 'it's just an opinion' dismissal once again, I'll give up on you too since there is little point to your objections.
For the thread itself though:
AC can make combat faster, but fast combat doesn't require AC and can exist without it.
So AC and fast combat aren't synonymous. (See my Fire Mage video for proof which is just as fast ESO).
The way ESO happens to make their combat faster than normal is by allowing animation cancelled skills to still land their damage. Now, people are free to like this system, that's perfectly fine. Normally when a game requires quick reactions, animation cancelling is allowed, but it doesn't allow both actions to land their damage in that case.
Because let's consider: what scenario needs you to land LA damage at the same time as a damage spammable skill? There is an argument to be made for needing to Block or dodgeroll in the middle of attacking, but in that case the game should register your Block but not allow your attack to complete if it had its animation interrupted.
Yet ESO adds cast times and lengthy animations to its skills while they expect them to be cancelled. That is illogical and shows that the game wasn't built for fast-paced combat, they just left the bug in it. If they want fast-paced combat, getting off 1 skill and 1 LA per second, then adjust skill animation length so that all of them finish within 1 second, and adjust LA to be smoother when spammed between everything else. Or create instant off-the-GCD skills that would be allowed to fire during other skills. That would make it smoother and intentional, rather than this leftover bug from an ill-thought-out code.
Note that I'm not campaigning to make combat slower, or even to remove the concept of AC, just a recognition of the fact that ESO's combat is far more jittery and contradictory (why have long animations if they are by design supposed to be canceled before they complete?) than if was designed properly with a cohesive system in mind.
Or if you meant that 'ESO with AC' skill ceiling is higher than 'ESO without AC', I do see what you mean - but only if you look at things in a false dichotomy. Because that brings us back to my original point that ESO without AC doesn't necessarily have to be slow, if they actually reworked their system (sped up their activation time, made some skills off-GCD, etc). There are other ways to make ESO fast paced, and changes that would make it require far more skill than currently.
ESO doesn't have:
- proc-based skills (apart from Crystal Frags) that need quick reactive gameplay and are off the GCD
- interplay between different skills (apart from Daedric Prey)
- class mechanics (apart from Necro corpses) like combo point generation or attack chains, or buff management
- burst cooldowns to plan around; you just reapply your self-buffs every rotation without any thought or impact
- Haste stats and buffs that would allow for more than 1 skill to be fired off every second
- cooldowns on skills in general; everything is always available to you so little planning is needed.
- group synergies like comboing different abilities with your skills or another player's skills (e.g. Throwing Axes through an ally's Fire Trap upgrades your axes to Fiery throwing axes, using a Blast attack in a Healing spring causes it to splash Regeneration on allies, etc). In ESO 'synergy' is an extra button you press every 20 seconds.
ESO does have:
- a 1 Skill per 1 second GCD
- LAs, dodge rolls, blocks and bashes that aren't affected by the GCD
- 'Bug-to-feature' AC that registers damage even if the skill is interrupted by a different action.
Again, people are free to enjoy it, but to say that ESO has some complex MMO combat system that has a much higher skill cap than other games is just wrong. It's one of the most uninspired combat systems out there (more similar to Hack and Slash dungeon crawlers than MMOs), and it uses the AC bug to prop up its otherwise very simplistic system and pretend that it has something even remotely interesting going for it.
So just because the basic ESO combat is dull, doesn't mean that AC is a complex system and the only way ESO's combat could be fast-paced and better. So AC is only complex and fast if you compare it to baseline ESO combat which is just a monotonous system with repetitive class homogeneity. If you actually compare AC to other ways that make combat fast and interesting, ESO really doesn't measure up to the skill needed to play other games well.3 -
Sorbin✭✭✭✭The question critics of animation cancelling fail to ever answer is this: if you get rid of animation cancelling, what do you replace it with? It exists quite intentionally, because the combat system prioritizes certain inputs over animations. We can postulate about what's possible all day but without knowing the game's code it's all ultimately baseless conjecture, and in 6 years of this game being out we've seen every attempt to curb animation cancelling have the effect of creating more sluggish, unresponsive combat. It's an old game now, folks. If it bothers you this much still, why keep playing? Any realistic change to animation cancelling is likely not going to be in place until ZOS makes another game.5
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BRCOURTN✭✭✭✭✭
ESO has a higher skill ceiling than other MMOs? Since when? ESO has one of the most basic combat systems.
I mean to cancel animations takes one more step in the process of completing a skill cast. You used to have to know the time it would take to cancel each skill (which was different in most cases). It just adds a higher skill ceiling, and its what makes ESO combat better than most other mmo combat.
You can not claim that 'AC and fast combat aren't synonymous' is just an opinion,
I read it again before my last reply and my comment you just replied to was most certainly accurate. I think it is one's perspective on what they might get out of it.
I suggest you read it again. I never said it could not exist without AC. I merely pointed out one of your statements of opinion.
Thank you since I was not creating a false narrative by any measure.
I respect your opinion too, but I will not stand for dismissing facts as opinions to create some false narrative.
I respect your opinion on the matter. Even the comment that AC is not synonymous with fast-paced combat is an opinion. We clearly have different opinions and can probably spend days coming up with 'facts" to support our thoughts on the matter.
Erm, no. What I wrote is a simple fact.
You are entitled to your opinion but "spazzing out" is just that.
Erm... there is a difference between fast paced combat and spazzing out your character with animation canceling.
Not the case. Zos could have fixed it by simplifying combat to make ESO like old combat systems like WoW and FF14. They decided that the robust and active combat system we have in ESO was more desirable. It really is that simple since combat in this game is one of the key features that separates ESO from other major MMORPG titles. A key part of ESO's success.Animation canceling is a typical "bug turned feature" in ESO. They never got around fixing it, so they just declared it to be a normal thing... Fast paced combat doesn't have to involve seizures that display a character writhing in jittery motions as they fire of LAs from weapons that pop in and out of existence between their hands being busy casting other animations, nor does it involve a weapon that gets barely held but disappears immediately after it was barswapped and still resulting in a completed AoE. That is objectively a glitchy animation, and damage that registers off of incomplete casts is a bug, whether it was embraced or not.
AC isn't synonymous with fast paced combat. (Fact)
It's rather sad if ESO devs and players can't imagine any other way. (This part is an opinion).
Your suggested (false) narrative was to deny that fast paced combat can exist without AC, and to frame all proof to the contrary as some 'opinion' that can be handwaved away because ah well, people have different opinions.
I respect your opinion on the matter. Even the comment that AC is not synonymous with fast-paced combat is an opinion. We clearly have different opinions and can probably spend days coming up with 'facts" to support our thoughts on the matter.
Erm, no. What I wrote is a simple fact.
You are entitled to your opinion but "spazzing out" is just that.
Erm... there is a difference between fast paced combat and spazzing out your character with animation canceling.
Not the case. Zos could have fixed it by simplifying combat to make ESO like old combat systems like WoW and FF14. They decided that the robust and active combat system we have in ESO was more desirable. It really is that simple since combat in this game is one of the key features that separates ESO from other major MMORPG titles. A key part of ESO's success.Animation canceling is a typical "bug turned feature" in ESO. They never got around fixing it, so they just declared it to be a normal thing... Fast paced combat doesn't have to involve seizures that display a character writhing in jittery motions as they fire of LAs from weapons that pop in and out of existence between their hands being busy casting other animations, nor does it involve a weapon that gets barely held but disappears immediately after it was barswapped and still resulting in a completed AoE. That is objectively a glitchy animation, and damage that registers off of incomplete casts is a bug, whether it was embraced or not.
AC isn't synonymous with fast paced combat. (Fact)
It's rather sad if ESO devs and players can't imagine any other way. (This part is an opinion).
At that, I will not continue with derailing the thread with the back and forth of opinions as I do not expect this to go anywhere meaningful.
Animation cancelling is not required to have fast-paced combat. But you're still allowed to like it! Just don't try to shut down discussion by pretending that 'Fast combat = AC' is a necessity and everything else is 'just an opinion'.
Have a good day and enjoy the game.
I suggest you read it again. Because you most certainly did write that..
Even the comment that AC is not synonymous with fast-paced combat is an opinion. We clearly have different opinions and can probably spend days coming up with 'facts" to support our thoughts on the matter.
Erm, no. What I wrote is a simple fact.
You are entitled to your opinion but "spazzing out" is just that.
Erm... there is a difference between fast paced combat and spazzing out your character with animation canceling.
Not the case. Zos could have fixed it by simplifying combat to make ESO like old combat systems like WoW and FF14. They decided that the robust and active combat system we have in ESO was more desirable. It really is that simple since combat in this game is one of the key features that separates ESO from other major MMORPG titles. A key part of ESO's success.Animation canceling is a typical "bug turned feature" in ESO. They never got around fixing it, so they just declared it to be a normal thing... Fast paced combat doesn't have to involve seizures that display a character writhing in jittery motions as they fire of LAs from weapons that pop in and out of existence between their hands being busy casting other animations, nor does it involve a weapon that gets barely held but disappears immediately after it was barswapped and still resulting in a completed AoE. That is objectively a glitchy animation, and damage that registers off of incomplete casts is a bug, whether it was embraced or not.
AC isn't synonymous with fast paced combat. (Fact)
It's rather sad if ESO devs and players can't imagine any other way. (This part is an opinion).
Regardless, this discussion is nothing more than a difference in opinion and as such is not going anywhere. As I said before, I respect you have an opinion and respect your opinion and will leave it at that.
then later claim that you never said that AC was needed for fast combat,
and continue calling my proposal for the possibility of AC-less fast combat an 'opinion'.
You're either contradicting yourself, backtracking, or phrased it poorly. Since you cling to the 'it's just an opinion' dismissal once again, I'll give up on you too since there is little point to your objections.
For the thread itself though:
AC can make combat faster, but fast combat doesn't require AC and can exist without it.
So AC and fast combat aren't synonymous. (See my Fire Mage video for proof which is just as fast ESO).
The way ESO happens to make their combat faster than normal is by allowing animation cancelled skills to still land their damage. Now, people are free to like this system, that's perfectly fine. Normally when a game requires quick reactions, animation cancelling is allowed, but it doesn't allow both actions to land their damage in that case.
Because let's consider: what scenario needs you to land LA damage at the same time as a damage spammable skill? There is an argument to be made for needing to Block or dodgeroll in the middle of attacking, but in that case the game should register your Block but not allow your attack to complete if it had its animation interrupted.
Yet ESO adds cast times and lengthy animations to its skills while they expect them to be cancelled. That is illogical and shows that the game wasn't built for fast-paced combat, they just left the bug in it. If they want fast-paced combat, getting off 1 skill and 1 LA per second, then adjust skill animation length so that all of them finish within 1 second, and adjust LA to be smoother when spammed between everything else. Or create instant off-the-GCD skills that would be allowed to fire during other skills. That would make it smoother and intentional, rather than this leftover bug from an ill-thought-out code.
Note that I'm not campaigning to make combat slower, or even to remove the concept of AC, just a recognition of the fact that ESO's combat is far more jittery and contradictory (why have long animations if they are by design supposed to be canceled before they complete?) than if was designed properly with a cohesive system in mind.
Or if you meant that 'ESO with AC' skill ceiling is higher than 'ESO without AC', I do see what you mean - but only if you look at things in a false dichotomy. Because that brings us back to my original point that ESO without AC doesn't necessarily have to be slow, if they actually reworked their system (sped up their activation time, made some skills off-GCD, etc). There are other ways to make ESO fast paced, and changes that would make it require far more skill than currently.
ESO doesn't have:
- proc-based skills (apart from Crystal Frags) that need quick reactive gameplay and are off the GCD
- interplay between different skills (apart from Daedric Prey)
- class mechanics (apart from Necro corpses) like combo point generation or attack chains, or buff management
- burst cooldowns to plan around; you just reapply your self-buffs every rotation without any thought or impact
- Haste stats and buffs that would allow for more than 1 skill to be fired off every second
- cooldowns on skills in general; everything is always available to you so little planning is needed.
- group synergies like comboing different abilities with your skills or another player's skills (e.g. Throwing Axes through an ally's Fire Trap upgrades your axes to Fiery throwing axes, using a Blast attack in a Healing spring causes it to splash Regeneration on allies, etc). In ESO 'synergy' is an extra button you press every 20 seconds.
ESO does have:
- a 1 Skill per 1 second GCD
- LAs, dodge rolls, blocks and bashes that aren't affected by the GCD
- 'Bug-to-feature' AC that registers damage even if the skill is interrupted by a different action.
Again, people are free to enjoy it, but to say that ESO has some complex MMO combat system that has a much higher skill cap than other games is just wrong. It's one of the most uninspired combat systems out there (more similar to Hack and Slash dungeon crawlers than MMOs), and it uses the AC bug to prop up its otherwise very simplistic system and pretend that it has something even remotely interesting going for it.
So just because the basic ESO combat is dull, doesn't mean that AC is a complex system and the only way ESO's combat could be fast-paced and better. So AC is only complex and fast if you compare it to baseline ESO combat which is just a monotonous system with repetitive class homogeneity. If you actually compare AC to other ways that make combat fast and interesting, ESO really doesn't measure up to the skill needed to play other games well.
ESO has some complex MMO combat system that has a much higher skill cap than other games. I said it and I mean it. FFXIV has a huge gcd and I haven't played WoW, but its way ahead of any other mmos in terms of population and what not, yeah? To say that ESO combat doesn't measure up to the standard of mmo combat thats been around for over 20 years is obvious. But I've played quite a few other mmos and ESO is very dynamic. Even you can't bring up examples without putting skills on parentheses for exceptions.1 -
Fur_like_snow✭✭✭✭✭
✭This thread went way off topic. The OP wasn’t about AC it was about bad server performance.2 -
bluebird✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭[snip] All the quotes are there in the quoted thead. Uryel and Tigerseye are correct. You are not.
The game released in 2014. AC wasn't done, wasn't mentioned, wasn't part of the game's combat system.
A couple of months later, players discover they can do this and the devs decided it's an unforeseen and unintended behavior of their combat system but they won't change it. Then by late 2014 and 2015 more and more people learned to do it and the devs just embraced it going forward.
And just to be clear: AC doesn't mean that you can cancel your cast, it refers to the fact that ESO registers your damage from both your interrupted AND your new action. So when we talk about AC it's not the intended feature of being able to Block off the GCD, but that Light Attacking and Skills for example don't cancel each other's damage even when they cancel each other's animations. So it's NOT just about 'block when you need to block' and 'dodge when you need to dodge'.
So no matter how many types you write that AC is intended, it's either not what we're talking about and deliberately missing the topic, or just demonstrably false. As you can clearly see Jessica prove Uryel and Tigerseye correct.
[edited to remove quoted content]Edited by ZOS_Lunar on July 2, 2020 1:25PM2 -
BRCOURTN✭✭✭✭✭Fur_like_snow wrote: »This thread went way off topic. The OP wasn’t about AC it was about bad server performance.
The thread's name is "animation cancelling"... its not a stretch that our conversation steers towards animation cancelling.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »gatekeeper13 wrote: »It makes about as much sense as throwing fireballs at each other. Just imagine ...
This is a fantasy game, not reality. Also functionality is way more important than visuals.
It's a fantasy game which goes against it's own rules and it's own logic. You activate an ability its casting you have cancelled. It is totally absurd, like being a wizard who starts casting a spell and before even saying the words, the spell is completed.
Although it's a bug, they kept in game because they couldn't fix it and somehow became a norm. A member of ZOS staff has confessed that in a post sometime ago.
Also, I think AC is totally useless and does not make the gameplay any more interesting. E.g in Cyro it is impossible for me to AC as I do in PVE because of lag, but combat is still very exciting. I do not miss it at all.
If anything, AC makes combat less fun for me, because I feel pressured that I have to make sure I have to get every single light attack in and if I miss one it throws off the whole rotation.
Combat would be far more engaging for me if it was just removed altogether.
You just described light attack weaving, not animation canceling. Regardless you don’t have to do either of them and still be able to complete the majority of the game’s content.
So why try to take something away from other people that enjoy it when you already have a choice to not do it?
Because it is clumsy, an embraced bug and produces too big a gap between the people who do and don't do it.
...but, I'm not getting into this one again.
If ESO want to continue to be a laughing stock, just to keep a few people happy, not my problem.
ESO is one of the most successful of the major MMORPGs out today. For the number of years this game has been out it is right on par with FF14 sales for the same duration since launch and that is a game that has an even larger gaming IP than TES.
It would seem the only laughing being done is on the way to the bank.
Yeah, so you keep saying...
As I keep saying, on the other hand, my friendslist would say otherwise, if you count player retention as an important factor.
By the fact Zos had to increase server capacity for both PC server capacities (well before COVID). Steam numbers show an increase when comparing any month to the same month the year before except for 3 months following a WoW update coming out (which means people checked it out and came back. Granted, Steam offers merely a sample but it is an unbiased sample and much larger than a friend list. Then there is readily available information for both FF14 and ESO.
So yes I keep saying, but what I keep saying is backed up with real, actual, information. Much of which is the type of information wise business people would suggest the product is a great success. By all measures business whose that is a critical success in today's MMORPG world and no game developer is laughing at that.2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭All the quotes are there in the quoted thead. Uryel and Tigerseye are correct. You are not.
The game released in 2014. AC wasn't done, wasn't mentioned, wasn't part of the game's combat system.
A couple of months later, players discover they can do this and the devs decided it's an unforeseen and unintended behavior of their combat system but they won't change it. Then by late 2014 and 2015 more and more people learned to do it and the devs just embraced it going forward.
And just to be clear: AC doesn't mean that you can cancel your cast, it refers to the fact that ESO registers your damage from both your interrupted AND your new action. So when we talk about AC it's not the intended feature of being able to Block off the GCD, but that Light Attacking and Skills for example don't cancel each other's damage even when they cancel each other's animations. So it's NOT just about 'block when you need to block' and 'dodge when you need to dodge'.
So no matter how many types you write that AC is intended, it's either not what we're talking about and deliberately missing the topic, or just demonstrably false. As you can clearly see Jessica prove Uryel and Tigerseye correct.
We already know that animation canceling was not purposely intended. We know it is an unintended consequence of the combat design in ESO. That is a fact that cannot be disputed. It is from the requirement in this game that we be able to react defensively at a moment's notice. Something that games with older designs like WoW and FF14 do not require anywhere near the same extent.
Zos chose to keep the more active combat style of this game rather than slow it down to the likes of WoW and FF14, as such AC remained and was blessed as a legitimate part of this game. Regardless, every skill governed by a GCD that is ~1 second long and is governed by the server. Animation canceling cannot work around this.
Also, this is not even what the OP experienced.Edited by ZOS_Lunar on July 2, 2020 1:26PM5 -
Fur_like_snow✭✭✭✭✭
✭Fur_like_snow wrote: »This thread went way off topic. The OP wasn’t about AC it was about bad server performance.
The thread's name is "animation cancelling"... its not a stretch that our conversation steers towards animation cancelling.
Did you read the original post? It wasn’t ever about AC but hey most people don’t even read the article just the headline right? Also the original poster hasn’t replied since page one hmmEdited by Fur_like_snow on July 2, 2020 1:23AM0 -
Alendrin✭✭✭Colinr1968 wrote: »On ps4 when I die I look to see what I was or who killed by I see likes of dawn breaker, but damn if I ever see it hit me or any of the last 5 hits,so is animation cancelling still come into effect or are people using macros and modes controllers do do there rotations.
You can't animation cancel a dawnbreaker any more; they added a cast time.
The game doesn't really work very well so not seeing skills or missing people standing in front of you with a skill is pretty common.0 -
eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭Before you post a comment, go read @exeeter702's post. Seriously, stop writing your post, stop moving your mouse to that "Post Reply" button, and go read it.
Animation cancelling is not unintended, or a bug. It's the result of how ESO's combat system was designed, specifically in the priority system and how certain actions take precedence over other actions. It's necessary for combat to be fast and remain responsive, and without it the game will be a clunky, sluggish mess that nobody will like, and that Zenimax will ultimately have to completely overhaul to be enjoyable again.
The intentional use of animation cancelling is the unintended part, or rather unanticipated. Animation cancelling itself was intended, but Zenimax didn't anticipate that players would learn how to intentionally use animation cancelling to tidy up combos, squeeze in a bit more damage through light attack and bash weaving, or consistently rotate defensive skills between defensive actions like dodge or block.
And that's what makes it so hard to address. They can't just get rid of animation cancelling, because the combat system depends on it to remain responsive. They can't just add cast times onto skills to make it so that they're actually cancelled when you cancel their animation, because the servers are running so poorly that doing so would make the game less responsive (just look at how unreliable the ults that have cast times are). No matter which way they go, the game gets less responsive.
If you want proof of this, just look at Path of Exile, which had to retroactively add animation cancelling into its existing combat system, because it ran into this very same problem. Melee playstyles were borderline unplayable unless you built into high attack speed, because you'd get locked into animations and couldn't respond to telegraphs quickly.4 -
Fur_like_snow✭✭✭✭✭
✭Colinr1968 wrote: »On ps4 when I die I look to see what I was or who killed by I see likes of dawn breaker, but damn if I ever see it hit me or any of the last 5 hits,so is animation cancelling still come into effect or are people using macros and modes controllers do do there rotations.
You can't animation cancel a dawnbreaker any more; they added a cast time.
The game doesn't really work very well so not seeing skills or missing people standing in front of you with a skill is pretty common.
Actually I did manage to AC a DB Alchy was right. but it’s so wonky and unreliable it’s not worth trying to do. Sometimes you get caught in a weird animation and it fires 3 seconds later. It’s definitely not the clean AC it was before the cast time was added.0 -
bluebird✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
That's what everybody who refers to AC in regards to ESO combat is talking about. The unintended part. The unforeseen consequence that was never meant to be played this way. So yes, AC was never intended to be part of people's dps rotations, and the game wasn't built with the idea of clipping LAs between Skills. Whether you like it or not let's just accept the fact that AC in its current role (as the current role is what we're discussing) wasn't a design decision, instead of purposefully misunderstanding players and going 'no it wasn't' 'yes it was' 'no it wasn't'.The intentional use of animation cancelling is the unintended part, or rather unanticipated. Animation cancelling itself was intended, but Zenimax didn't anticipate that players would learn how to intentionally use animation cancelling to tidy up combos, squeeze in a bit more damage through light attack and bash weaving, or consistently rotate defensive skills between defensive actions like dodge or block.
And that's what makes it so hard to address. They can't just get rid of animation cancelling, because the combat system depends on it to remain responsive. They can't just add cast times onto skills to make it so that they're actually cancelled when you cancel their animation, because the servers are running so poorly that doing so would make the game less responsive (just look at how unreliable the ults that have cast times are). No matter which way they go, the game gets less responsive.
As for whether it could/should be changed, yeah that is actually something to be discussed. But the servers being unable to compute when a player Blocks/Bashes/lands skills is a technical 'they can't fix it (at least without breaking the game)' issue, not a 'great system that was intended to work this way'.
Other games can be quick and reactive while not overlapping damage from interrupted animations. Like you're free to interrupt a mob and dodgeroll in any split second you want, but the game will know you did that and immediately register and complete your new action which overwrites the old that was clearly of lower priority if you chose to cancel it. Other games can also get just as quick and intense as ESO as I showed with video evidence, without any AC needed for it. ESO could also add some skills off the GCD (like you're putting down your Lightning AoE on a sorc, and can fire off Crystal Frag procs off the GCD) like other games have fast reactive combat skills.
People can also like it the way it is, and that's up to them as I said, no issues there. But then, if ESO wants to embrace AC, why keep animations on skills? Why add long animations (some longer than 1 second) if they don't want players stuck in that animation for 1s+? If they want LA for weaving off the GCD, then why does it have a 1 second animation? It should not have an animation at all (since the take-your-staff-and-shoot thing just interferes with your hands casting without a staff a split second later) or at the very least make the animation faster and smoother. Firemages can Fireblast during any spell they choose and it was intended this way. It's just as fast as ESO and much more fluid.
So AC really isn't this Holy Grail of fast and complex combat, and even ESO could do better than this.Edited by bluebird on July 2, 2020 2:53AM1 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think it's pretty relevant.
To you perhaps. Not for making any educated statements about the game and how many players are in it or towards if animation cancelling is making it fail or not.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.1 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
That's what everybody who refers to AC in regards to ESO combat is talking about. The unintended part. The unforeseen consequence that was never meant to be played this way. So yes, AC was never intended to be part of people's dps rotations, and the game wasn't built with the idea of clipping LAs between Skills. Whether you like it or not let's just accept the fact that AC in its current role (as the current role is what we're discussing) wasn't a design decision, instead of purposefully misunderstanding players and going 'no it wasn't' 'yes it was' 'no it wasn't'.The intentional use of animation cancelling is the unintended part, or rather unanticipated. Animation cancelling itself was intended, but Zenimax didn't anticipate that players would learn how to intentionally use animation cancelling to tidy up combos, squeeze in a bit more damage through light attack and bash weaving, or consistently rotate defensive skills between defensive actions like dodge or block.
And that's what makes it so hard to address. They can't just get rid of animation cancelling, because the combat system depends on it to remain responsive. They can't just add cast times onto skills to make it so that they're actually cancelled when you cancel their animation, because the servers are running so poorly that doing so would make the game less responsive (just look at how unreliable the ults that have cast times are). No matter which way they go, the game gets less responsive.
As for whether it could/should be changed, yeah that is actually something to be discussed. But the servers being unable to compute when a player Blocks/Bashes/lands skills is a technical 'they can't fix it (at least without breaking the game)' issue, not a 'great system that was intended to work this way'.
Other games can be quick and reactive while not overlapping damage from interrupted animations. Like you're free to interrupt a mob and dodgeroll in any split second you want, but the game will know you did that and immediately register and complete your new action which overwrites the old that was clearly of lower priority if you chose to cancel it. Other games can also get just as quick and intense as ESO as I showed with video evidence, without any AC needed for it. ESO could also add some skills off the GCD (like you're putting down your Lightning AoE on a sorc, and can fire off Crystal Frag procs off the GCD) like other games have fast reactive combat skills.
People can also like it the way it is, and that's up to them as I said, no issues there. But then, if ESO wants to embrace AC, why keep animations on skills? Why add long animations (some longer than 1 second) if they don't want players stuck in that animation for 1s+? If they want LA for weaving off the GCD, then why does it have a 1 second animation? It should not have an animation at all (since the take-your-staff-and-shoot thing just interferes with your hands casting without a staff a split second later) or at the very least make the animation faster and smoother. Firemages can Fireblast during any spell they choose and it was intended this way. It's just as fast as ESO and much more fluid.
So AC really isn't this Holy Grail of fast and complex combat, and even ESO could do better than this.
Every attempt to address it has resulted in unresponsive and clunky combat. Every attempt to fiddle with the priority system has had the same impact; every alteration to animation clipping equally. We are talking about something that is fundamentally baked into how the engine processes commands. It's not a case of choice or opinion, it's a case of make us of it with ZOS blessing, or gimp yourself without.
Can fast paced combat exist with animation cancelling? Yes.
Does that have any relevance to ESO? No, because it's not how the game engine works--it would require an overhaul of the entire combat system or port into a different engine to remove it.3 -
colossalvoids✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hilarious replies to a thread basically about a common lag situation.
If some people want to watch their flawless animations of putting hands into their idle rest position before pressing dodge or block in vKA hm or when caught by couple of high ranked players in IC sewers thats on them and is totally fine, but arguing semantics lacking any basic knowledge with people actually playing the content where it's a necessary part of combat system is not that well thought to say the least.2 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The question critics of animation cancelling fail to ever answer is this: if you get rid of animation cancelling, what do you replace it with? It exists quite intentionally, because the combat system prioritizes certain inputs over animations. We can postulate about what's possible all day but without knowing the game's code it's all ultimately baseless conjecture, and in 6 years of this game being out we've seen every attempt to curb animation cancelling have the effect of creating more sluggish, unresponsive combat. It's an old game now, folks. If it bothers you this much still, why keep playing? Any realistic change to animation cancelling is likely not going to be in place until ZOS makes another game.
If you're mainly talking a replacement for weaving(?), auto-attack.
Like almost every other game of this kind already has and has had for years, if not decades.
Make it optional, like most games do, for the people who don't like it.
...and 6 years, for a decent MMO, is barely getting started.
The question is, is this a decent MMO?
Not just for us, but for most people who try it?
...and if it's not, how do we make it one?
That is how you think if you want a game to last.
I know I promised not to get into this, again, but still.0 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Before you post a comment, go read @exeeter702's post. Seriously, stop writing your post, stop moving your mouse to that "Post Reply" button, and go read it.
Animation cancelling is not unintended, or a bug. It's the result of how ESO's combat system was designed, specifically in the priority system and how certain actions take precedence over other actions. It's necessary for combat to be fast and remain responsive, and without it the game will be a clunky, sluggish mess that nobody will like, and that Zenimax will ultimately have to completely overhaul to be enjoyable again.
The intentional use of animation cancelling is the unintended part, or rather unanticipated. Animation cancelling itself was intended, but Zenimax didn't anticipate that players would learn how to intentionally use animation cancelling to tidy up combos, squeeze in a bit more damage through light attack and bash weaving, or consistently rotate defensive skills between defensive actions like dodge or block.
And that's what makes it so hard to address. They can't just get rid of animation cancelling, because the combat system depends on it to remain responsive. They can't just add cast times onto skills to make it so that they're actually cancelled when you cancel their animation, because the servers are running so poorly that doing so would make the game less responsive (just look at how unreliable the ults that have cast times are). No matter which way they go, the game gets less responsive.
If you want proof of this, just look at Path of Exile, which had to retroactively add animation cancelling into its existing combat system, because it ran into this very same problem. Melee playstyles were borderline unplayable unless you built into high attack speed, because you'd get locked into animations and couldn't respond to telegraphs quickly.
Yeah, or save your time (assuming you already know how to do basic weaving) and read the actual (inconvenient) truth, here:
The game released in 2014. AC wasn't done, wasn't mentioned, wasn't part of the game's combat system.
A couple of months later, players discover they can do this and the devs decided it's an unforeseen and unintended behavior of their combat system but they won't change it. Then by late 2014 and 2015 more and more people learned to do it and the devs just embraced it going forward.
And just to be clear: AC doesn't mean that you can cancel your cast, it refers to the fact that ESO registers your damage from both your interrupted AND your new action. So when we talk about AC it's not the intended feature of being able to Block off the GCD, but that Light Attacking and Skills for example don't cancel each other's damage even when they cancel each other's animations. So it's NOT just about 'block when you need to block' and 'dodge when you need to dodge'.
So no matter how many types you write that AC is intended, it's either not what we're talking about and deliberately missing the topic, or just demonstrably false. As you can clearly see Jessica prove Uryel and Tigerseye correct.
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