Dragon Shouts and Greybeards as a faction and skill line.

VaranisArano · June 2020

Glurin wrote: »

Ok, I don't know why some of you are so vehemently opposed to the idea. I mean, yeah, I don't see an entire skill line with us all running around as new dragonborn using every shout that Skyrim had. But it might be cool if we could pick up one or two shouts. Even if it's just Unrelenting Force as an ultimate ability. That's not unreasonable.

I'm opposed to the idea because I actually remember my lore from Skyrim and I'm generally opposed to mutilating the lore so that players can fulfill their nostalgic power fantasies.

A. The OP wants to learn from the Greybeards. Well, the Greybeards teach the pacifistic Way of the Voice to honor Kynareth, so teaching a bunch of folks they know are going to misuse the Voice makes no sense.
B. The OP wants to learn from the Greybeards. We know from lore that a non-dragonborn who secluded himself with the Greybeards from training took 10 years of meditation to learn 2 shouts. That's a heck of a boring grind if we're gonna stay lore-friendly. And NO we can't learn shouts like a Dragonborn because its a major plot point of the Main Quest that there is no Dragonborn right now. So grind, grind, grind it is.
C. The OP wants to learn from the Greybeards, who's Way of the Voice is far superior to other methods of Shouting, which do exist. So while we might be able to learn from other groups, we'd expect those methods to be much weaker than any Shout from Skyrim, since we are non-Dragonborn and learning from a much less effective.school of Shouting.

If more people remembered the lore from Skyrim and not just how cool it was to Shout, they'd temper their expectations. Its possible to stay lore-friendly and have us learn to Shout from a group other than the Greybeards, but we'd expect the results to be much weaker than the Way of the Voice and it would still be a grind.

But then, the recurring suggestions I see about "I wanna learn to Shout from the Greybeards", "I wanna Shout like Ulfric", or worst of all, "I wanna Shout like the Dragonborn" are a depressing sign that most folks making that suggestion don't remember their lore (or do, and don't care) and aren't tempering their expectations.

Iccotak · June 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Ok, I don't know why some of you are so vehemently opposed to the idea. I mean, yeah, I don't see an entire skill line with us all running around as new dragonborn using every shout that Skyrim had. But it might be cool if we could pick up one or two shouts. Even if it's just Unrelenting Force as an ultimate ability. That's not unreasonable.

I'm opposed to the idea because I actually remember my lore from Skyrim and I'm generally opposed to mutilating the lore so that players can fulfill their nostalgic power fantasies.

A. The OP wants to learn from the Greybeards. Well, the Greybeards teach the pacifistic Way of the Voice to honor Kynareth, so teaching a bunch of folks they know are going to misuse the Voice makes no sense.
B. The OP wants to learn from the Greybeards. We know from lore that a non-dragonborn who secluded himself with the Greybeards from training took 10 years of meditation to learn 2 shouts. That's a heck of a boring grind if we're gonna stay lore-friendly. And NO we can't learn shouts like a Dragonborn because its a major plot point of the Main Quest that there is no Dragonborn right now. So grind, grind, grind it is.
C. The OP wants to learn from the Greybeards, who's Way of the Voice is far superior to other methods of Shouting, which do exist. So while we might be able to learn from other groups, we'd expect those methods to be much weaker than any Shout from Skyrim, since we are non-Dragonborn and learning from a much less effective.school of Shouting.

If more people remembered the lore from Skyrim and not just how cool it was to Shout, they'd temper their expectations. Its possible to stay lore-friendly and have us learn to Shout from a group other than the Greybeards, but we'd expect the results to be much weaker than the Way of the Voice and it would still be a grind.

But then, the recurring suggestions I see about "I wanna learn to Shout from the Greybeards", "I wanna Shout like Ulfric", or worst of all, "I wanna Shout like the Dragonborn" are a depressing sign that most folks making that suggestion don't remember their lore (or do, and don't care) and aren't tempering their expectations.

Sad truth is that they just want to play "Skyrim Online"

kaisernick · June 2020

I tossed this idea around before greymore was realised and it was shot down hard.

PhantomGaming · June 2020

There is an argument to be made that the vestige might actually be a dragonborn. Due to the fact we were able to wear the amulet of kings and actually use its power to defeat Molag Bal. Aside from that the greybeards do teach people the way of the voice when there is a great need. I would consider a daedric invasion and massive war due to a lack of legitimate imperial succession as time of need.

Bradyfjord · June 2020

PhantomGaming wrote: »

There is an argument to be made that the vestige might actually be a dragonborn. Due to the fact we were able to wear the amulet of kings and actually use its power to defeat Molag Bal. Aside from that the greybeards do teach people the way of the voice when there is a great need. I would consider a daedric invasion and massive war due to a lack of legitimate imperial succession as time of need.

They do teach someone. Tiber Septim.

VaranisArano · June 2020

PhantomGaming wrote: »

There is an argument to be made that the vestige might actually be a dragonborn. Due to the fact we were able to wear the amulet of kings and actually use its power to defeat Molag Bal. Aside from that the greybeards do teach people the way of the voice when there is a great need. I would consider a daedric invasion and massive war due to a lack of legitimate imperial succession as time of need.

Nope.
Oh NO, we are NOT Dragonborn.

Why not?
A. It would invalidate the whole Main Quest. A Dragonborn doesn't need to fight Molag Bal to defeat the Planemeld, they just need to run into the Imperial City and relight the Dragonfires...and yes, that's the plot of TES IV Oblivion.
B. The Imperial City DLC also makes it clear that we are NOT Dragonborn, as the whole plot is about preserving the dragonfires for a future Dragonborn (Tiber Septim)
C. It would invalidate the whole Daedric Wars arc. Remember that whole "head into Imperial City, relight the Dragonfires, restore the covenant between Akatosh and Alessia's heirs, and no more daedra running around" plot point from Oblivion? Yeah, that'll shut down Nocturnal's attempted manifeststion down right quick.
D. Elsweyr. Oh, Elsweyr. How many dragons have you killed and NOT absorbed their souls like you do in Skyrim?

Our Vestiges are NOT Dragonborn.

Sylvermynx · June 2020

PhantomGaming wrote: »

There is an argument to be made that the vestige might actually be a dragonborn. Due to the fact we were able to wear the amulet of kings and actually use its power to defeat Molag Bal. Aside from that the greybeards do teach people the way of the voice when there is a great need. I would consider a daedric invasion and massive war due to a lack of legitimate imperial succession as time of need.

I had the definite impression that the Vestige is "Meridia's Chosen". I don't see how that would mesh with also being a Dragonborn.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · June 2020

I'm sure I'm not the only Elder Scrolls fan that's tired of almost everything I hear about Elder Scrolls being related to Skyrim, as if it were the only Elder Scrolls game. We've been on this Skyrim train for almost ten years now, and knowing that the Elder Scrolls universe is far, far more vast than just Skyrim, I'm so ready to see new ideas, lore, and skill lines. Skyrim should be left as it is, in its own game, as unique entry in the series. Not its defining one.

JMadFour · June 2020

Man, people just really can't get over Skyrim memes.

Vadik_Wulfang · June 2020

Why not? Skyrim was a better and more successful game, makes sense to try and cash in on that, they allready have done several times in the history of ESO so why not once more.

Glurin · June 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its possible to stay lore-friendly and have us learn to Shout from a group other than the Greybeards, but we'd expect the results to be much weaker than the Way of the Voice and it would still be a grind.

And that's exactly what I'm talking about. I don't see a whole skill line filled with full power shouts being a thing. But a new skill line with the ultimate being a shout, yeah, I can see that happening and I don't have any problem with it. There's lots of precedent for non-dragonborn to learn shouts. The Greybeards themselves prove that.

What I don't get is the frothy mouthed backlash that we can't have anything to do with Skryim anymore because it was already in Skryim. Well, yeah, that's kind of the point. It was in Skyrim and it was cool, so if there's a good way to bring it into ESO, then why not? Are you going to argue that the Thieves Guild should be removed because it was in Oblivion? Or that Morrowind already did werewolves and therefore werewolves should go away?

Sylvermynx · June 2020

Eh, I'm not much into "revisiting" older games in a series in a current game. I play the older games and enjoy them for what they are. I don't actually want this current iteration of TES (regardless it's an MMORPG instead of SPMR game) putting stuff from older games in my face.

I actually want ESO to live up to the promise of the 2nd Era. As little as is known about the time frame of this game, I WANT the devs to get creative. I do NOT want rehashed Skyrim (oh, man - I really hate that Solitude is all but the same as in Skyrim a thousand years later), or rehashed Oblivion.... etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseam.

Hmm. Really.... what I want besides ESO being it's OWN game rather than lukewarm regurgitation of previous TES games....

I want remakes of the really old games - Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind.... Do that, and I'll pay whoever any amount of money.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · June 2020

Vadik_Wulfang wrote: »

Why not? Skyrim was a better and more successful game, makes sense to try and cash in on that, they allready have done several times in the history of ESO so why not once more.

Saying Skyrim was better is highly subject to opinion, and one I would absolutely disagree with. As to "why not try to cash in on it"...They've been doing so for almost ten years. Skyrim has been released and rereleased multiple times on multiple platforms... Some love for the other entries in the series as well as new turf would be immensely refreshing.

Cundu_Ertur · June 2020

I do not like this idea be

VaranisArano wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Ok, I don't know why some of you are so vehemently opposed to the idea. I mean, yeah, I don't see an entire skill line with us all running around as new dragonborn using every shout that Skyrim had. But it might be cool if we could pick up one or two shouts. Even if it's just Unrelenting Force as an ultimate ability. That's not unreasonable.

I'm opposed to the idea because I actually remember my lore from Skyrim and I'm generally opposed to mutilating the lore so that players can fulfill their nostalgic power fantasies.

A. The OP wants to learn from the Greybeards. Well, the Greybeards teach the pacifistic Way of the Voice to honor Kynareth, so teaching a bunch of folks they know are going to misuse the Voice makes no sense.
B. The OP wants to learn from the Greybeards. We know from lore that a non-dragonborn who secluded himself with the Greybeards from training took 10 years of meditation to learn 2 shouts. That's a heck of a boring grind if we're gonna stay lore-friendly. And NO we can't learn shouts like a Dragonborn because its a major plot point of the Main Quest that there is no Dragonborn right now. So grind, grind, grind it is.
C. The OP wants to learn from the Greybeards, who's Way of the Voice is far superior to other methods of Shouting, which do exist. So while we might be able to learn from other groups, we'd expect those methods to be much weaker than any Shout from Skyrim, since we are non-Dragonborn and learning from a much less effective.school of Shouting.

If more people remembered the lore from Skyrim and not just how cool it was to Shout, they'd temper their expectations. Its possible to stay lore-friendly and have us learn to Shout from a group other than the Greybeards, but we'd expect the results to be much weaker than the Way of the Voice and it would still be a grind.

But then, the recurring suggestions I see about "I wanna learn to Shout from the Greybeards", "I wanna Shout like Ulfric", or worst of all, "I wanna Shout like the Dragonborn" are a depressing sign that most folks making that suggestion don't remember their lore (or do, and don't care) and aren't tempering their expectations.

My Bosmer and Argonian characters have several comments about the current state of lore in this game. None of those comments comply with TOS, unfortunately, and will have to be left to your imagination. So, yeah, I'm expecting shouts in Q4 (crown store exclusive!) implemented in the more lore-breaking way possible just to really pour salt in the wounds of those who actually paid attention to the lore in the TES series.

But have an awesome, anyways.

Thevampirenight · June 2020

While it would be nice to have the Greybeards in a questline that we have to go visit them for something. I don't think they should be a joinable faction. Though would like to have their robes as a costume.
Like many here have mentioned, Shouting is one of the most difficult things for one to do. Now it could come easier to some then to others. Maybe a Dragon Cult with extensive knowledge of Dragon Language could do if it they knew it by heart and spoke true. But it takes such extensive training to focus and form those draconic words into a shout and it might be easier for Nords to do it then other races.

Now it might have been more common for Dragon Cultists to speak and use it but then they also likely had the blessings of their Dragon Masters that might have made it easier for them we know there are still Dragon Cults around but they are very few. Greybeards train at a very young age only mastering it to some degree in their elderly years there is a reason why they are called Greybeards.

Even then they only mastered like some of the shouts or a bunch of them but not all of them. Only a Dragonborn could have the means of learning them all.
The Way of the Voice teaches that the Shouts should be used for the worship and glory of the Gods and never for Conquest. So they would be more of a tradition and there is no way the Greybeards would teach the vestige so he/she can go play conquest in Cyrodiil. As that goes against everything they stand for.
If and that is if Zenimax decides to add the Th'uum(IHopefully they never will)) it shouldn't be at all connected to the Greybeards but some secretive group that isn't the Greybeards that also teaches it. But even then it should be difficult to master but at the same time more darker and takes you down the road of conquest. Can think of it like the Jedi and the Sith. Personally I feel they should just keep the Th'uum Offlimits to the playerbase we got all kinds of unique magicial abilties and weapons in the game that are just as good. We don't need the Th'uum to feel all powerful. We can just build and pretend we are and that is good enough.

Saubon · June 2020

PhantomGaming wrote: »

There is an argument to be made that the vestige might actually be a dragonborn. Due to the fact we were able to wear the amulet of kings and actually use its power to defeat Molag Bal. Aside from that the greybeards do teach people the way of the voice when there is a great need. I would consider a daedric invasion and massive war due to a lack of legitimate imperial succession as time of need.

Being a dragonborn would make you a heir to cyrodiil throne, do you really want this?

Glurin · June 2020

Saubon wrote: »

PhantomGaming wrote: »

There is an argument to be made that the vestige might actually be a dragonborn. Due to the fact we were able to wear the amulet of kings and actually use its power to defeat Molag Bal. Aside from that the greybeards do teach people the way of the voice when there is a great need. I would consider a daedric invasion and massive war due to a lack of legitimate imperial succession as time of need.

Being a dragonborn would make you a heir to cyrodiil throne, do you really want this?

Are you kidding? Everyone want's it! What did you think the Three Banners War was all about? Uncle Fernando's secret sweetroll recipe?

colossalvoids · June 2020

Personally i don't want it coming, not just to not hear shouting "dovah's" all the time but can't stand more skyrim nostalgia cash grabs in general. We're in a different era so can we please have something new or actually filling mechanics gaps like spellsword/magic archer archetype?
Sure tes lore was always flexible as f, but at this point having psijic etc. is already enough of powerfantasy going.

But if i would be given a task to implement this... Ehm, idea, i would go least harmful way and it would be solely tanking line of being a Tongue with like 2-3 skills and a ultimate, probably lock it even more by introducing it as a trial reward from some nordic ruin after defeating one of the Tongues using them.
Sfx should be surely not on a Skyrim level, a pretty silent whisper would do.
Make it simple, one (mass?) chain (and disable it use in cyro/on players, no one needs one more chain into ball groups), one group buff/debuff and ulti something like a disarm shout - reduce spell and physical res etc. as an example. Can be anything really. It probably won't be spammed by every player and might actually encourage more people trying out tanking (or trials in general) by some "lore" carrot on a stick.

redgreensunset · June 2020

No because this is ESO not Skyrim Online, nor should it be (or attempt to be) that. We did the shouts once, lets explore something else instead of boringly rehashing something done to death.

LadyNalcarya · June 2020

Why would you want them to do the same thing over and over again? Let them explore something new, there's a lot of obscure lore that can be used for new content.
And yeah, our characters are not dragonborns, they cannot just look at a rune wall and instantly learn them.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · June 2020

Can you not let the Last Dragonborn have at least 1 special power? give the Vestige shouts and suddenly their is little special about the LDB and the Vestige is already enough of a Mary Sue as it is if it wasn't already bad enough that they have access to this discount Vampire Lord form, just play a Dragonknight and pretend your flame Breath is a shout.

At this point I am amazed people are not asking if we can mantle a Daedric Prince like the Champion of Cyrodiil.

LuxLunae · June 2020

I played skyrim and skipped the deagon stuff. I never went to the dragon in the first part of the game. The game was far more enjoyable imo. Although I could not advance the main quest. I didn't have to worry about those dumb dragons.

I hate thu'ums.

VaranisArano · June 2020

Glurin wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its possible to stay lore-friendly and have us learn to Shout from a group other than the Greybeards, but we'd expect the results to be much weaker than the Way of the Voice and it would still be a grind.

And that's exactly what I'm talking about. I don't see a whole skill line filled with full power shouts being a thing. But a new skill line with the ultimate being a shout, yeah, I can see that happening and I don't have any problem with it. There's lots of precedent for non-dragonborn to learn shouts. The Greybeards themselves prove that.

What I don't get is the frothy mouthed backlash that we can't have anything to do with Skryim anymore because it was already in Skryim. Well, yeah, that's kind of the point. It was in Skyrim and it was cool, so if there's a good way to bring it into ESO, then why not? Are you going to argue that the Thieves Guild should be removed because it was in Oblivion? Or that Morrowind already did werewolves and therefore werewolves should go away?

If more people who asked for Shouting understood that it would be weaker and grindier than in Skyrim, I'd be more confident that we'd eventually get it. As it is, I suspect most people who want it would be very disappointed in a lore friendly Shout skill line.

As for "no more TESV, ugh", I figure its a backlash to overt pandering to player nostalgia to sell content, a well that ZOS has been returning to with some frequency. Morrowind was a love letter to TES 3 (and if you played TES 3, the main plot had zero tension because plot armor). Elsweyr's big selling point was "Dragons!" And now we've got a year of, well, Skyrim.

Or maybe that's just me. I finished up Morrowind thinking "If I want to explore Vvardenfell, I should just play TES 3" and from everything I can tell, Dawnguard is still the best vampire themed expansion.

nemvar · June 2020

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Perashim wrote: »

I would much rather have different vampire bloodlines, different werebeast forms, and a cultist skill line (based off what daedric prince you choose) than shouts. Keep those loud noises in Skyrim.

I wouldn't mind having Daedric Artifact like quests where by the end of the quest we get a couple passives and a niche type skill/ultimate, but be tied to the use of the Artifact. That is, you must wear/wield the item for the passives/skills to be of use.

We used to have something like this, only the quest was getting emperor and the condition was being in cyrodiil.

Please bring back emperor skill line. Also add a perfected version that gives you 103 weapon damage, thank you.

Mortiis13 · June 2020

Ratzkifal wrote: »

You are not the first one to suggest this. Honestly, the Psijics are a much more exclusive club to get into. And besides, who says our characters haven't been with the Greybeards for years? We have an age slider that we can move all the way to the right if we wanted to after all...

The most important thing about it though is that its introduction does not water down the Thu'um. It still needs to be special and different from all the other stuff we do.
My proposal for this is to have the Greybeards be a guild skill line that only consists of ultimates.
That way you can only ever use a maximum of two shouts which keeps us within the rules of what is possible. It also helps with the balance because in order to gain these abilities, you need to give up on the other ultimates you could use in their place.
And lastly ultimate abilities already have the perfect framework to incorporate the use of one to three words of a shout. Just like incapacitating strike can change its effect once you have more ultimate than a certain threshold, you can use a more powerful version of the shout using more than one word if you gain more ultimate.

Morphs are the only pain point I see with the system. How do you design morphs for dragon shouts?
I'd be alright with them not having any morph choices at all just to stick true to the lore.

If ever, this would be a solution I could live with. But only the "less" powerfull once.

PrimusNephilim · June 2020

PhantomGaming wrote: »

implemented as a lore mini game

No....No more mini games

Mettaricana · June 2020

Sturmfaenger wrote: »

Elder Scrolls is much more than Fus Ro Dah. Lets explore that instead.

Literally the worst thing to ever happen to game series was shouts because every single expansion in the series after is people looking for dragonborns when in skyrim you're the last one. Sure shoutd could be used i suppose as a skill line but i dont see it being as powerful or as an entire skill line like the dragon born

xaraan · June 2020

I honestly expected a Greybeards like Psijic line with this expansion and a larger area of Skyrim covered above ground to get to the Greybeards, so Antiquities was a surprise for me. I'm fine with them not going with shouts however, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it years down the road.

PhantomGaming · June 2020

@Ratzkifal The way you suggested it was kinda how I imagined it, I was thinking like 1 ultimate and some passives. You can learn different shouts but only ever use one. Like you would have to unlearn it and it would not be as simple as just a skill point. Maybe some passives to related to dragon hunting or something to connected the events of Elswyer.

OtarTheMad · June 2020

I don't know, without being a Dragonborn it is supposed to take years to learn even a simple shout. What would make more sense is you have NPC's and enemies who know the Thu'um, that'd be cool and make sense. I wouldn't mind going to the Greybeards and doing a questline with them but I don't think Shouts or Thu'um for players make sense

It never made sense to me that in Skyrim so many Nords hold the Greybeards in high regard and also the Thu'um/shouts and yet no one ever took the time to learn them besides Ulfric. The Thu'um seems to be so important to Nords, more NPC's should know it.