Leads in IC; if you wanted us to hate PvP even more... this was it

Olauron · June 2020

Rianai wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

@Magdalina You sound like I am labelling somebody. I am not. The actions are enough, it doesn't really matter whether I give name to such actions or not. It doesn't really matter whether such actions are intended by gameplay or not. There is no toggle for PVP and PVE accounts, but there is toggle for PVP behaviours and PVE behaviours. It is up to a person which behaviour he chooses while doing this or that activity. He may be toxic in PVE, he may be not toxic in PVP. But if activity (any activity) needs other unwilling (forced by rewards) participants, then it is a leeching activity. It is up to a player to make a choice and give an honest answer to himself, whether he needs unwilling for his amusement (whether he is against letting unwilling participants be free of his unwanted attention) or willing participants are enough.

Bar a few alliance war skills that are important for some PvE builds, there isn't really anything PvP exclusive that is actually needed for PvE. So i don't really understand how players can feel "forced" by something that's so irrelevant for their preferred type of content. If only it was the same the other way arround.

You forgot leads, leads to furnishings and leads to mythics. You forgot event tickets.

How exactly does not getting those things impact your PvE experience in a negative way? Most Mythics aren't that great for PvE anyway, furnishings and event tickets (or rather the stuff you can buy from them) fall into the "optional cosmetics" category. Or do you also feel forced to buy all the crown store stuff?

It doesn't really matter whether mythics are good for pve or not. There are no substitutes (you can easily swap two fire-based 5-pieces sets, you have no other 1-piece set with comparable features). Furnishings are real end-game, so it is absolutely not optional cosmetics. It is optional only in the same sense as playing this game is optional (and without this optional cosmetics there is nothing to do in the game after completing all story quests).
I do not feel forced to buy crown store furnishings, I know that it is pay-to-win for housing community and I use it either with gold-to-crown exchange or with crowns from ESO+.

So you feel forced to use bad items? Just because it is something unique? Really? And your statement about furnishings doesn't really make sense. Either you need them all or you don't. And if you can get away without buying all furnishings from the crown store you certainly can also get away without getting a few furnishings from PvP enabled content.

Do you understand that min-maxing is not the only reason to use a set? Item may be not BiS, but if it is fun to use, I will use it instead of BiS item.
I buy all furnishings from crown store I want. It is easy for activity that is actually fun.

Magdalina · June 2020

Linaleah wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

So you're implying that the only issue is consistency, and had all 5/5 pieces of these items been lockeed behind PvP, you'd have no issues with it?

I'm not implying - I'm directly saying that this is one of the main issues with it. my preference would be 5/5 pvp or 5/5 pve or best case scenario - each of those parts has pvp AND pve source.

So here we have it, 13 pages of hatred because ONE FIFTH of an object has been put into PvP(ish), but you're saying that if 5/5 had been all put in PvP, everyone'd be fine with that?

Well...I don't know. I'm having a hard time believing this somehow. Of course, maybe it's just me and my lack of faith in humanity

Either way, I'm pretty sure this is not an issue but like...the very idea. As has already been pointed out, it is quite clear the whole point of Antiquities is to get people to participate in all sorts of different content. Me? I like this. Other people? Why, there're even quite a few people in this thread saying they mainly PvE and STILL they like this and are having fun in IC, which is clearly showing Antiquities working as intended. Some other people like you? They don't like this, so they don't have to take part in this. I still don't see the issue.

KyleTheYounger · June 2020

Bruccius wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Normally I hate IC and avoid it. Don't care to do it, not fun getting ganked.

But now there are leads in IC.

So now I get to wade through more of the [snip]

Way to increase resentment and misery

Well, if you don't like doing that, just... don't go? If you aren't having fun in a zone, why go there?

I'm at complete loss as to why this post has yet to be moderated as potential flame bait. Unlike the immediate update to the OP's original post?

Why does ZoS keep punishing PvE gamers like myself who DO NOT want to be in PvP zones trying to experience/grind/collect PvE content?

The store is already bad enough with PvE content locked behind $$$$ paywalls. Why won't ZoS just CEASE & DESIST with trolling PvE gamers? Forcibly trying to alter their game play style by locking critical PvE content behind PvP zone walls?

AWinterWolf · June 2020

Inaya wrote: »

AWinterWolf wrote: »

Playing Devil's Advocate here, I see both points but I have to say that pvpers have to farm dungeons/arenas for gear, and that's often necessary for their builds to be a success.

Do I find it annoying that they put leads in IC? Yes. If I really want those leads, I'll get a group together, go at stupid o'clock or bite the bullet or work out/look up a build I can use whilst farming those leads.

Should zos have made them available outside of IC? I'm not sure I agree totally there, because where would you draw the line?

It's risk vs. reward. Is the lead you want, valuable enough to you, to venture into a place which is a mix of pvp and pve?

I agree with you 100%! I will go because some of the things are worth it to me, and sometimes I will be left alone, sometimes I'll be killed and sometimes I'll be ganked. It is only the last that I can't understand.

There's pve in terms of killing bosses and the like, but you kill them because you want the leads etc. knowing that you could be killed. My opinion is weighing up whether it's worth the risk of getting ganked, in hopes of getting that lead. If it is, I'd do it, if it's not, I'll live without it.

P.S: Sorry, I don't explain things very well in written text, it's not my strong suit, especially when running purely on coffee lol

VaranisArano · June 2020

KyleTheYounger wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Normally I hate IC and avoid it. Don't care to do it, not fun getting ganked.

But now there are leads in IC.

So now I get to wade through more of the [snip]

Way to increase resentment and misery

Well, if you don't like doing that, just... don't go? If you aren't having fun in a zone, why go there?

I'm at complete loss as to why this post has yet to be moderated as potential flame bait. Unlike the immediate update to the OP's original post?

Why does ZoS keep punishing PvE gamers like myself who DO NOT want to be in PvP zones trying to experience/grind/collect PvE content?

The store is already bad enough with PvE content locked behind $$$$ paywalls. Why won't ZoS just CEASE & DESIST with trolling PvE gamers? Forcibly trying to alter their game play style by locking critical PvE content behind PvP zone walls?

Could it be that ZOS doesn't view wanting players to play all of their gamemodes as a punishment?

I mean, given their devotion to balancing PVE and PVP together, or their desire to have class reps who are experienced at both PVE and PVP, it'd be more than a little odd if the Game Devs thought they were trolling their players by asking them to do both types in rare circumstances.

Though the paywall thing is pretty funny. "ZOS, quit trolling me by putting dungeons, zones, trials, and arenas behind paywalls!" Are you expecting them to give you new content for free?

navystylz_ESO · June 2020

newtinmpls wrote: »

Normally I hate IC and avoid it. Don't care to do it, not fun getting ganked.

But now there are leads in IC.

So now I get to wade through more of the [snip]

Way to increase resentment and misery

[Edited to remove Profanity and Baiting]

At 14 bosses I said eff it. I can't stand the garbage pvp in this game. Some poor sap was on 48. 48 friggin bosses and no lead. This is beyond stupid.

AmoralOne · June 2020

KyleTheYounger wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Normally I hate IC and avoid it. Don't care to do it, not fun getting ganked.

But now there are leads in IC.

So now I get to wade through more of the [snip]

Way to increase resentment and misery

Well, if you don't like doing that, just... don't go? If you aren't having fun in a zone, why go there?

I'm at complete loss as to why this post has yet to be moderated as potential flame bait. Unlike the immediate update to the OP's original post?

Why does ZoS keep punishing PvE gamers like myself who DO NOT want to be in PvP zones trying to experience/grind/collect PvE content?

The store is already bad enough with PvE content locked behind $$$$ paywalls. Why won't ZoS just CEASE & DESIST with trolling PvE gamers? Forcibly trying to alter their game play style by locking critical PvE content behind PvP zone walls?

How is your pain any different from PvP players. SO MANY good sets come from PvE stuff we dont want to do, but we pull up our pants and grind it out. We are not happy about it, but we do it, because the game creators decided to do this. We dont make giant forums complaining that we have to grind X dungeon X amount of times for our PvP gear. No PvP player wants to grind PvE stuff and hope RnG works in their favor. So stop complaining, and go do it.

Integral1900 · June 2020

Fear not, I have the solution. Ignore it...

Get the ones that are all in PVE and don’t bother with the rest

We did perfectly well before these items are introduced, we will do perfectly well after. ZOS cannot force you to play content you do not want to do, this is a decision that effects you and I as individuals. I play content because I enjoy it, if I do not enjoy it I do not play it. Simple

DracoSaggitaExSole · June 2020

I want to express a harsh and raw opinion on this.

I play a lot of PvP, i find it challenging and like it. But for my build I had to farm monster sets, doing the same content over and over, dealing with people leaving the dungeon in the middle, fake tanks, fake healers, dps who press one skill only and there where a time when it toke me 8 days of pledges to get the right shoulder, and still did not get it and just happened to get it in Cyrodill gold vendor.

However, I play an MMO, I don't expect to get things right away. I Understand that I have to sacrifice time and effort to get the item what I want even if i have to do things I dislike. I accepted that I have to put work into getting certain items.

I had to try over and over again to get PvE items and deal with undesirable aspects of the game. So my message is, I know it is frustrating but get some buddies, prepare for it a bit with gear and skills, and grind for it. You will eventually get it. Same as in PvE.

If you want it, work for it. We all have to.

Starlock · June 2020

Integral1900 wrote: »

Fear not, I have the solution. Ignore it...

If it was that simple, people wouldn't be complaining.

Antiquities is a fun and interesting addition to the game. Naturally, customers get excited about uncovering all the new shiny things. On some level, introducing barriers and obstacles to obtaining the new shiny things can enhance enjoyment. However, this only works if the barriers and obstacles are not frustrating to the customer. When something gets too frustrating, all that excitement about the new shiny goes out the window and is replaced with anger and disappointment. It's pretty natural and normal to feel that way.

The solution is for the developers to take customer feedback into account and be more mindful of where they place leads.

Fur_like_snow · June 2020

Funny no one in my group was angry frustrated or disappointed in IC especially when they got their lead. Maybe it’s the players you group with?

Linaleah · June 2020

Magdalina wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

So you're implying that the only issue is consistency, and had all 5/5 pieces of these items been lockeed behind PvP, you'd have no issues with it?

I'm not implying - I'm directly saying that this is one of the main issues with it. my preference would be 5/5 pvp or 5/5 pve or best case scenario - each of those parts has pvp AND pve source.

So here we have it, 13 pages of hatred because ONE FIFTH of an object has been put into PvP(ish), but you're saying that if 5/5 had been all put in PvP, everyone'd be fine with that?

Well...I don't know. I'm having a hard time believing this somehow. Of course, maybe it's just me and my lack of faith in humanity

Either way, I'm pretty sure this is not an issue but like...the very idea. As has already been pointed out, it is quite clear the whole point of Antiquities is to get people to participate in all sorts of different content. Me? I like this. Other people? Why, there're even quite a few people in this thread saying they mainly PvE and STILL they like this and are having fun in IC, which is clearly showing Antiquities working as intended. Some other people like you? They don't like this, so they don't have to take part in this. I still don't see the issue.

have you noticed that despite there being actual antiquities furnishings behind pvp, people are NOT complaining about those? or outfits and such? maybe some of it is also because gear is a functional item, but a good number of it is because these leads are mixed. so you start collecting something that sounds pretty exciting....only to find out that you need pvp to finish it. do you stay half way done? do you feel happy about it?

and yes. the whole point of antiquities is to cajole people into buying content they have otherwise may have been skipping. notice that ALL the mythics require at least one DLC area. you may not see the issue, but its all a matter of opinions in the end - how you feel about it. just because YOU don't see an issue, doesn't invalidate preferences of people who have a different view.

P.S. because this needs to be clarified apparently. no other expansion feature prior to that involved DLCs in such an integral way. before you could use the feature in DLC areas, but you did NOT need DLC areas to utilize the feature fully. antiquities? deliberately put certain items across multiple zones, where at least on of those zones - is a DLC zone.

ZoS. if you want to make subscription mandatory instead of claiming its optional.. just do it already.

Linaleah · June 2020

Integral1900 wrote: »

Fear not, I have the solution. Ignore it...

Get the ones that are all in PVE and don’t bother with the rest

We did perfectly well before these items are introduced, we will do perfectly well after. ZOS cannot force you to play content you do not want to do, this is a decision that effects you and I as individuals. I play content because I enjoy it, if I do not enjoy it I do not play it. Simple

that is the option i have personaly decided to go with. doesn't mean the way ZoS decided to go about it is ok now.

Rianai · June 2020

Olauron wrote: »

Do you understand that min-maxing is not the only reason to use a set? Item may be not BiS, but if it is fun to use, I will use it instead of BiS item.
I buy all furnishings from crown store I want. It is easy for activity that is actually fun.

Considering that the benefits (or lack thereof) from gear is mostly gained in a very passive way and not by active usage of said items - no, i do not understand how simply wearing a certain item could be so much fun, to the point where not wearing said item makes the game so much less fun that a player would feel forced into doing something detested.

And similar applies to furnishings too. Yea, you buy some because you want them and you are willing to pay the price (there is really nothing you'd like to get, but think it is too expensive?), but as you said yourself, you don't feel forced to get them and if the price would increase above what you are willing to pay, you probably (hopefully) won't keep buying them, even if you still want them. And with thousands of furnishing items aviable you might still have fun even if you aren't getting 100% of what you want.

DracoSaggitaExSole · June 2020

Starlock wrote: »

Integral1900 wrote: »

Fear not, I have the solution. Ignore it...

If it was that simple, people wouldn't be complaining.

Antiquities is a fun and interesting addition to the game. Naturally, customers get excited about uncovering all the new shiny things. On some level, introducing barriers and obstacles to obtaining the new shiny things can enhance enjoyment. However, this only works if the barriers and obstacles are not frustrating to the customer. When something gets too frustrating, all that excitement about the new shiny goes out the window and is replaced with anger and disappointment. It's pretty natural and normal to feel that way.

The solution is for the developers to take customer feedback into account and be more mindful of where they place leads.

You are a customer of an MMO, in case you are new to the genre lets get this out of the way. You have to grind for things to get it, sometimes in content that you don't particularly enjoy.

I don't want to insult you personally, I respect your opinion. But please understand that MMOs use to be about putting extraordinary effort into achieving great things. This consumer entitlism is what exactly takes MMOs into a direction of cash shop to look pretty and pay for win. I personally have an problem with that.

A soccer player will never be better if he buys the best soccer ball or jersey... He will be good if he grinds for it, and steps on the field and gets beat enough to learn to be a better player. And certainly he wont become any good if complains about the grass on the field, or the soccer ball.

Cres · June 2020

Linaleah wrote: »

and yes. the whole point of antiquities is to cajole people into buying content they have otherwise may have been skipping. notice that ALL the mythics require at least one DLC area. you may not see the issue, but its all a matter of opinions in the end - how you feel about it. just because YOU don't see an issue, doesn't invalidate preferences of people who have a different view.

You mean 1/2 of the mythics require a DLC area?
Snow Treaders - Requires greymoor, but so does the entire antiquities system, so it doesn't count
Bloodlord's Embrace - Imperial City, free DLC so nothing to purchase here
Torc of Tonal Constancy - No DLC required

Thrassian Stranglers - Summerset required
Malacath's Band of Brutality - Wrothgar required, and IC but as said above, free DLC
Ring of the Wild Hunt - Murkmire required, previously free DLC from login but has to be purchased now

technohic · June 2020

And here I have to go do VMA and BRP to get things and I completely hate the memorization of mechanics. Huh...

Magdalina · June 2020

Linaleah wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

So you're implying that the only issue is consistency, and had all 5/5 pieces of these items been lockeed behind PvP, you'd have no issues with it?

I'm not implying - I'm directly saying that this is one of the main issues with it. my preference would be 5/5 pvp or 5/5 pve or best case scenario - each of those parts has pvp AND pve source.

So here we have it, 13 pages of hatred because ONE FIFTH of an object has been put into PvP(ish), but you're saying that if 5/5 had been all put in PvP, everyone'd be fine with that?

Well...I don't know. I'm having a hard time believing this somehow. Of course, maybe it's just me and my lack of faith in humanity

Either way, I'm pretty sure this is not an issue but like...the very idea. As has already been pointed out, it is quite clear the whole point of Antiquities is to get people to participate in all sorts of different content. Me? I like this. Other people? Why, there're even quite a few people in this thread saying they mainly PvE and STILL they like this and are having fun in IC, which is clearly showing Antiquities working as intended. Some other people like you? They don't like this, so they don't have to take part in this. I still don't see the issue.

have you noticed that despite there being actual antiquities furnishings behind pvp, people are NOT complaining about those? or outfits and such? maybe some of it is also because gear is a functional item, but a good number of it is because these leads are mixed. so you start collecting something that sounds pretty exciting....only to find out that you need pvp to finish it. do you stay half way done? do you feel happy about it?

and yes. the whole point of antiquities is to cajole people into buying content they have otherwise may have been skipping. notice that ALL the mythics require at least one DLC area. you may not see the issue, but its all a matter of opinions in the end - how you feel about it. just because YOU don't see an issue, doesn't invalidate preferences of people who have a different view.

P.S. because this needs to be clarified apparently. no other expansion feature prior to that involved DLCs in such an integral way. before you could use the feature in DLC areas, but you did NOT need DLC areas to utilize the feature fully. antiquities? deliberately put certain items across multiple zones, where at least on of those zones - is a DLC zone.

ZoS. if you want to make subscription mandatory instead of claiming its optional.. just do it already.

I have indeed seen heaps of people complain about everything that's even remotely 'locked' behind PvP, from questing itself to dyes, this is just the latest iteration. Also, afaik there's only one furniture dropping in IC and it also drops out of IC so not like there's actually something to discuss.

Far as dlcs go - it's almost as if they want you to actually play all parts of the game - and pay for them with irl money indeed. Why would a business company do that indeed? If anything, this is a completely ingenious marketing trick, no matter how you (you don't like it, I can understand that) or me (personally, yes, I understand that they're trying very hard to bring players to buy content/sub but I don't see anything immoral in how they're doing it here so I'm fine with it for now) feel about it.

I'm just curious though. Putting content in PvP is bad because you don't like PvP. Putting content in dlc zones is bad because you don't want to pay for dlcs. What outcome would you think ideal here? Every single antiquity being in vanilla zones? But that's boring. Dlc zones are cool and fun, it's awesome to have a reason to go there again. Should they really put everything in vanilla zones in order to...in order to what, exactly? Appease the part of the playerbase that doesn't buy content and therefore brings them no money?

ZOS_Volpe · June 2020

Greetings,

As this thread has continued to derail with baiting and flaming comments, despite our previous message, we have decided to close it down. When posting, we ask that forum members remain civil, constructive, and within the guidelines that we have in place. If there are any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,