Leads in IC; if you wanted us to hate PvP even more... this was it
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Thoragaal✭✭✭✭✭.
you feeling compelled to run content you don't like does NOT make it a good design. and no its not different - which is the point! feeling compelled, cajoled, call it whatever - to do content you don't enjoy is NOT a good thing! playing a video game for fun should NOT feel like a chore.
While on the topic, maybe a lot of people would agree that daily quests since Morrowind has been nothing but a chore.
Not difficult, not really rewarding in terms of gear and mostly done for motifs.
"Join the hype train before the next DLC is released and it's too late!" encourages people (at least the ones I know) to log on and do it, but nobody actually enjoys their time doing it.
Sorry if I'm derailing the thread...The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
"I've always wanted to kick a duck up the arse" -Karl Pilkington, on the question what he'd do if it was the last day on earth.1 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
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Putting more and more and more AND MORE rewards for the same low participation content is exactly forcing. That is the only way of forcing ZOS has, since it is hard for ZOS to come to every player and force with gun.They are not forcing you to do anything, as has been pointed out a many times. Even the post you quoted told you, there is content locked behind every aspect of the game, and many people do not like all those aspects of the game, it is their choice now on whether to do it or not.
You can't go to Burger King because you like their burgers better, yet expect to receive a Happy Meal toy, life doesn't work like that.
It is also blazingly obvious that Zenimax's entire point of the whole scrying system was to get people back trying every single activity in the game, in order to bring new life to many of those long forgotten areas or give players new experiences they may not have tried yet. I seriously doubt they are going to change anything just because a subset of players have an issue with PVP, since their entire point was to try and temp you to give ALL those activities another try.
FYI, thousands of PVEers have gotten their leads in IC, while we have been going back and forth on this thread!
Your example is wrong. The right example would be you are going to cafe to get a breakfast, but you are told that you can have your coffee with croissant only after you eat the toy. Because, you see, that particular cafe has low participation metrics with toys sold and eaten. The point is I would find my coffee with croissant in another cafe. The same way I am doing something else in ESO or playing other games instead of going into IC.
The thing is, there are two points of the scrying system. The first point is a marketing point to make players buy other DLCs with other zones and dungeons. The second point is design point introducing even more rewards in low participation content (add nMA, base crit defense, IC dailies, events to antiquities). The first is likely working (it is not hard to buy a zone to get something new from it). The second... You will see very soon that IC will be ghost town again. Nothing will change that. Even giving it for free didn't change that. Bad content is bad content, no rewards will ever fix that.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.3 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The second... You will see very soon that IC will be ghost town again. Nothing will change that. Even giving it for free didn't change that. Bad content is bad content, no rewards will ever fix that.
Perfect then, all the people complaining about being forced into PVP have to do is wait and they can stroll in unmolested as they are asking for.
3 -
adriant1978✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The thing is, all the Story parts of IC are already in safe areas. It's just the going to and from that you are at risk of being attacked.
The Improvised Garrison, Arena, and Temple quests in particular would like a word with you. The number of times I got ganked while trying to defend those doors ...
4 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
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Except I am not
This whole argument, in fact this whole thread seems to come down to this:
- I don't want to do this content
- So don't do it
- BUT I'M FORCED TO
I don't understand this issue. It's like you're eating a cactus. You know, no one is actually forcing you to eat a cactus. But for some weird reason you choose to continue eating it and cry how much it hurts. I'm sorry but this is on you.
Yes, ZOS is forcing me to do content I don't like. No, I am not doing it no matter the rewards. ZOS can give a whole house in the IC for going into IC, I will not do this. Yes, I am telling that this concept of forcing is wrong even if it doesn't work at me. This whole thread is about this. That this is wrong (and it is wrong no matter what side is forced, PVE into IC or PVP into (n/v)MA).
This is good on you then, at least you're consistent
Is it also wrong then that there're BoP sets only acquireable from dungeons? Moreover, monster sets only acquireable from vet dungeons? Sets only acquireable from trials? Skins and titles only acquireable from vet dungeons/trials achievements? Hell, is this wrong that there's a furnishing locked behind Master Angler achievement? You know, I'd kind of like to have that boat but I can't stomach the idea of all that fishing...
Actually, if you spread this idea, there're also things locked behind questing. Like some titles and mementos and even pets you get for completing certain quests/quest chains. But surely not everyone likes all that questing. How is this fair on them?
there is one key difference.
these other rewards tend to be locked between one specific type of content. mythics are locked behind 5 different types of content that are mixed up all over the place, so its all too easy to end up with an incomplete item. IMO - they should have kept them consistent and if something is meant for pvp - it can ONLY be acquired through pvp/pvp zones. for example. Cyrodill only furnishings. and if its meant for pve? it should ONLY be aquired through pve. you know... for the sake of consistency.
So you're implying that the only issue is consistency, and had all 5/5 pieces of these items been lockeed behind PvP, you'd have no issues with it?
First, I think it is wrong that the only two boats are locked behind vet trial and fishing with pvp (fishing is already unsufferable grind to my taste, and with pvp it is a joke). Murkmire ones are too alien for almost any design except swamp house.
Except I am not
This whole argument, in fact this whole thread seems to come down to this:
- I don't want to do this content
- So don't do it
- BUT I'M FORCED TO
I don't understand this issue. It's like you're eating a cactus. You know, no one is actually forcing you to eat a cactus. But for some weird reason you choose to continue eating it and cry how much it hurts. I'm sorry but this is on you. Yes, ZOS is forcing me to do content I don't like. No, I am not doing it no matter the rewards. ZOS can give a whole house in the IC for going into IC, I will not do this. Yes, I am telling that this concept of forcing is wrong even if it doesn't work at me. This whole thread is about this. That this is wrong (and it is wrong no matter what side is forced, PVE into IC or PVP into (n/v)MA).
This is good on you then, at least you're consistent
Is it also wrong then that there're BoP sets only acquireable from dungeons? Moreover, monster sets only acquireable from vet dungeons? Sets only acquireable from trials? Skins and titles only acquireable from vet dungeons/trials achievements? Hell, is this wrong that there's a furnishing locked behind Master Angler achievement? You know, I'd kind of like to have that boat but I can't stomach the idea of all that fishing...
Actually, if you spread this idea, there're also things locked behind questing. Like some titles and mementos and even pets you get for completing certain quests/quest chains. But surely not everyone likes all that questing. How is this fair on them?
Second, I think that it is OK for titles to be locked behind specific content, because titles are very specific too. The same with trophies and busts, it is OK for them to be locked, because these furnishings represent your activity. The same with catapult furnishings, because they represent pvp activity. The same with motifs and outfit pages, if (and only if) they are connected with the activity.
Third, I think there should be no BoP sets. But at the same time I think that there are so many sets now that it is possible to find a replacement that is not ideal, but good enough. I was thinking of getting winterborn first, but then grind was too huge and I replaced it with Julianos (or I could use Ysgramor to reinforce the ice theme). It is not working with mythics (there are too few of them and they are too different) and with most furnishings (you can't replace Alessia with the Nerevar and you can't replace dragon with guar). What is more important, locked sets are usually (at least in pve) connected with the content. It is logical that to get a head of Skoria you need to kill Skoria. Still, I think that Golden is a good addition.
Concluding, I can say that I am against things being locked behind some content, but if it is locked, then there should be clear connection between the content and the locked thing. This connection will at least mask forcing players into every type of content.
So now we've progressed from 'PvP is bad' to 'locking any reward behind any content is bad unless maybe it's 100% related'. I'll admit this is a much more sensible argument.
Your own logic is a liiiiittle bit inconsistent there though - say, you yourself say it is fine to lock things behind related content, but by this very logic there's nothing more sensible than locking a boat furniture behind a fishing achievement (I cannot comment much on trial one as I haven't done it), yet you yourself don't like it ;P It's a very thin line to draw there - what is and what isn't directly connected to certain content. Say, you say BoP gear shouldn't be, but monster helms are the definition of BoP gear and they're 100% connected.
Far as BoP gear in general goes, when I started the game, this being my first MMO, I kinda didn't understand it, it just seemed like an unnecessary hassle. I've changed my opinion over time though. I remember just how dead dungeons were without having the carrot of monster helms and various BoP sets consistently dropping in every dungeon - and look at them now, with thousands of people running pledges every day. BoP gear is what gave it life. That's not to say it's the ONLY reason and the content isn't worth anything on its own - that's to say it gives this amazing content nigh endless replayability and makes getting group for it 1000% easier.
You may not like it, but we need BoP gear for the health and longevity of the game.
Edited by Magdalina on June 11, 2020 7:33AM1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »That would have been true if IC and Cirodiil were pure pvp locations. No NPC, no quests, no mobs, no bosses. Only other pvp-lovers who enjoy each other.
But that is not true. If I am forced to go there to kill a boss that does not mean I am there for pvp.
Thought I like the idea of locking all pvpers in there own jar so they deal purely with other pvp-lovers...
Most "pvp lovers" as you call them, play a well rounded game of PVE and PVP and like everyone else, had to run vet dungeons, trials and scry like mad to earn their gear. Honestly, it is the pure PVE players who are in a jar, put there by themselves and gripe when they have to leave the jar and experience the other half of the game. I can't remember the last time I saw a thread from someone who enjoys PVP, griping about having to enter a PVE zone to earn gear.
Enjoy the whole game, or enjoy half, that is a personal choice, no one is "forcing you" to go anywhere or do anything. You desiring something is also a personal issue, you made the choice to want it, knowing good and well what was required to get it and you apparently do not like what you see as the only option, when in reality, there are many option available to you, that you have simply chosen to ignore.
Why would removing all NPC's, quests, skyshards and everything else make those areas "pure", seems to me it would just make them boring. You thinking that gamers who enjoy PVP just want to kill each other and that is all they enjoy, is just your preconceived notion, with absolutely zero basis in fact. In reality, most of those players simply enjoy a challenge that a pre-programmed game mechanic can not yet deliver. AI just isn't at that point yet, but when it is, the PVE zones will be just like PVP zones today, with smart mobs making smart choices and you being able to walk up and whack them dead in a couple blows will be a thing of the past. I suspect you are going to hate it.
Dont remember the game now, but there was one I played where if you want to be engaged in pvp you have to rase spesial "flag". You did that - other players can attack you. Otherwise they cannot. For me that is the perfect sustem. Want challenge of constant threat - press the button and enjoy. But you can mess only with ones you enjoy it. Others are immune to your aggression.
No thanks, the game is full of safe zones already, we don't need to mess with the only 2 zones left in this game where people have to take care of themselves (not counting battlegrounds since there are no quests or mats to farm there). If that happened IC would become a pve zone with some people just dueling.
If you want something from a zone prepare for it or don't go, no one is forcing you to pvp.
So, if you take away the fan of backstabbing a pve passerby that would kill pvp in game?
That tells alot about local pvp
What kills PvPvE zones like Imperial City, where one of the central mechanics is farming NPCs for Tel Var then being able to fight other players to take their Tel Var, is allowing players to reap all of the rewards with none of the risks.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out what happens to the Tel Var economy when you let people flag themselves as safe and still farm for rewards.
I'd be fine with a "No- PVP flag" so you can have your story mode BUT you have to give up all the rewards. No Tel Var, no AP, no skyshards, no achievements. Nothing that ZOS fully intended for you to get while experiencing the risk of PVP in a PvPvE zone.
So yeah, that's gonna include no leads. Because ZOS didn't "forget" that Imperial City is a PvPvE zone. And as far as ESO is concerned, not your other game, its really not fair for you to get the same rewards as people who did the content as intended while you take on none of the risk.
No problem. Want to farm TV, AP => be PvP, want to do story-mode => be non-PvP.
Will that ruine anything?
Like I said, I'd be fine with a reward-less story mode that disables all gains from a PvPvE zone if you disable PVP. If you are also fine with that, it sounds like we agree! That would solve a lot of the "I just want to experience all the stories!" problems. A rewardless story mode for dungeons and trials would be cool, for much the same reasons.
I find its mostly a problem with rewards. Its mostly folks feeling "forced" into PVP-enabled zones while looking for certain rewards, and then feeling very aggrieved when PVP happens and prevents them from getting their rewards as easily as they'd like. Like, take that up with ZOS. Just realize that ZOS intentionally put those rewards in a PVP-enabled zone despite hearing these same complaints every single time they put any rewards in a PVP activity. They know and intended for you to risk fighting other players for those rewards.
In the case of leads, yeah, ZOS didn't forget that Imperial City is a PvPvE zone. As aggravating as some players might find it to be prevented from getting that reward as easily as they'd like, ZOS is obviously okay with it.
The thing is, all the Story parts of IC are already in safe areas. It's just the going to and from that you are at risk of being attacked.
Oof, its actually quite the opposite.
The Arena has a quest-required boss fight where you fight, gladiator-style, against waves of daedric bosses who are no pushover.
There's also as achievement for killing 100 players while in the Arena.
That's one of my primary examples of "Imperial City is a PvPvE zone where ZOS fully intended you to risk PVP in the middle of your PVE." Like, ZOS literally encouraged enemy players to fight in the same area as a quest-required boss fight.
Most of the NPC talky bits are in safe zones, but not even all of those. Most of the quest related actions, like forging the key in Elven Gardens or killing daedra in the Arboretum, are out in the open where you can be attacked at any time.
ZOS didn't intend for questing in IC to be a safe experience without the risk of PVP. Quite the opposite.3 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
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Imagine how us PVPers feel that a lot of exclusives are locked behind PVE only content...like gear, undaunted passives, Psijic passives, Atiquities in general, monster sets, etc.2 -
Ghanima_Atreides✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »
Oof, its actually quite the opposite.
The Arena has a quest-required boss fight where you fight, gladiator-style, against waves of daedric bosses who are no pushover.
There's also as achievement for killing 100 players while in the Arena.
That's one of my primary examples of "Imperial City is a PvPvE zone where ZOS fully intended you to risk PVP in the middle of your PVE." Like, ZOS literally encouraged enemy players to fight in the same area as a quest-required boss fight.
Most of the NPC talky bits are in safe zones, but not even all of those. Most of the quest related actions, like forging the key in Elven Gardens or killing daedra in the Arboretum, are out in the open where you can be attacked at any time.
ZOS didn't intend for questing in IC to be a safe experience without the risk of PVP. Quite the opposite.
Yeah, apart from the final act, pretty much all of the actual questing takes place in open PVP area. And it's not the sort of discreet questing you can do quietly, either, one bit literally has an NPC shouting your location across the whole district...practically painting a bull's eye on your back. And there are parts you can't solo, so if you can't find other players to help you, tough luck.
Which is a shame, really, because the IC story is actually one of my favourite quests in the game.[The Beauty of Tamriel] My collection of ESO screenshots
Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock.3 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
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It is not that PVP is bad, it is PVP leeching behaviour is bad. No matter whether it is intended or not. Self-sufficient PVP doesn't has this bad behaviour, but it seems there is no self-sufficient PVP in ESO.So now we've progressed from 'PvP is bad' to 'locking any reward behind any content is bad unless maybe it's 100% related'. I'll admit this is a much more sensible argument.
Your own logic is a liiiiittle bit inconsistent there though - say, you yourself say it is fine to lock things behind related content, but by this very logic there's nothing more sensible than locking a boat furniture behind a fishing achievement (I cannot comment much on trial one as I haven't done it), yet you yourself don't like it ;P It's a very thin line to draw there - what is and what isn't directly connected to certain content. Say, you say BoP gear shouldn't be, but monster helms are the definition of BoP gear and they're 100% connected.
Far as BoP gear in general goes, when I started the game, this being my first MMO, I kinda didn't understand it, it just seemed like an unnecessary hassle. I've changed my opinion over time though. I remember just how dead dungeons were without having the carrot of monster helms and various BoP sets consistently dropping in every dungeon - and look at them now, with thousands of people running pledges every day. BoP gear is what gave it life. That's not to say it's the ONLY reason and the content isn't worth anything on its own - that's to say it gives this amazing content nigh endless replayability and makes getting group for it 1000% easier.
You may not like it, but we need BoP gear for the health and longevity of the game.
My logic is consistent. We are fishing in ESO with fishing rods from the beach. Boats have nothing to do with this activity in ESO. Also I am saying that I am against BoP gear, but with BoP monster helmet there is at least logic. With locking most mythics and furnishings behind types of content there is zero logic.
As for the so called health of the game, why then we regularly have threads about ESO+ and DLC dungeons in the random dungeon pool? Why do we regularly have threads about players leaving DLC dungeons right at the start? To get monster helmet I have to do dungeon just once. PVP player will use transmute. Story PVE player will not really care about trait. Dungeon PVE player will do it even without BoP helmets, because that is their main activity.
Thing is, if you don't do dungeons, you have no need for BoP gear from dungeons (PVP players have Golden, story PVE don't need at all (I have them for all 10 characters just for role-play reasons)). If you already do dungeons, then why would you need helmets to do dungeons? There is no sense in this. "You will not do X without Y, but Y is needed only for doing X". That is the circle.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.1 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
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You're again implying there's some 100% solid wall between PvE and PvP, like some kind of checkbox you check when creating your account 'PvE/PvP player'. This is not so. Perhaps there're games where this is so, but ESO is not such a game.
It is not that PVP is bad, it is PVP leeching behaviour is bad. No matter whether it is intended or not. Self-sufficient PVP doesn't has this bad behaviour, but it seems there is no self-sufficient PVP in ESO.So now we've progressed from 'PvP is bad' to 'locking any reward behind any content is bad unless maybe it's 100% related'. I'll admit this is a much more sensible argument.
Your own logic is a liiiiittle bit inconsistent there though - say, you yourself say it is fine to lock things behind related content, but by this very logic there's nothing more sensible than locking a boat furniture behind a fishing achievement (I cannot comment much on trial one as I haven't done it), yet you yourself don't like it ;P It's a very thin line to draw there - what is and what isn't directly connected to certain content. Say, you say BoP gear shouldn't be, but monster helms are the definition of BoP gear and they're 100% connected.
Far as BoP gear in general goes, when I started the game, this being my first MMO, I kinda didn't understand it, it just seemed like an unnecessary hassle. I've changed my opinion over time though. I remember just how dead dungeons were without having the carrot of monster helms and various BoP sets consistently dropping in every dungeon - and look at them now, with thousands of people running pledges every day. BoP gear is what gave it life. That's not to say it's the ONLY reason and the content isn't worth anything on its own - that's to say it gives this amazing content nigh endless replayability and makes getting group for it 1000% easier.
You may not like it, but we need BoP gear for the health and longevity of the game.
I know a lot of PvPers who originally came from Skyrim and were pure PvE but then they tried it out and grew to like it. Likewise, I know a lot of PvPers who have come to this game for PvP but then tried dungeons/trials for gear and liked that too. Now these people do both, there's no magic toggle.
The only toggle there is is when you port into a PvP zone. THIS marks you up for PvP. You may not like it, but this is how it works, this has worked this way since launch, ZOS is perfectly aware of how it works and there's no getting around it other than, well, simply not going there. You entered a PvP zone. You're now a PvP player, whether you like it or not, all your refusal to accept this means is that you're a very unprepared PvP player.
You don't go into a dungeon naked and tell others they're obliged to carry you because this is your preferred gamestyle and you refuse to change it, why do you think this kind of logic should work for PvP content?
Honestly? I personally (I don't even PvP that much. I'm what you'd rather call a PvE-er, in fact) usually try to leave the players that are clearly just trying to PvE alone, I find that a nice thing to do. But I don't HAVE to do this, I'm in no way obliged to carefully check what it is the enemy player is doing before engaging in PvP in a PvP zone. This is my personal choice just like it will be someone else's choice to fight you and just like it was your choice to go in unprepared.
You know what I don't find a nice thing to do? I don't find it a nice thing when those poor unprepared PvEers who happily cower away as I pass by wait for a couple more of their kind to show up and happily backstab me in the back just as I engage with a district boss or something. Because apparently it only works one way - they don't want to take a risk getting killed but they're totally fine safely killing others. It's obviously not everyone that does it but has happened quite a few times, quite enough to see the pattern.
You know what else I don't find a nice thing to do? Calling every player choosing to engage in a type of content that is 100% intended by the game creators but that you personally don't like pretty much a sociopath who's only there to leech your fun and happiness out of you, all the while as those toxic PvPers continue giving you great advices on how to deal with it in the least painful way possible.
Attitude like this makes me wonder if I'm actually doing anyone a favor in the end by leaving 'PvErs' alone. Perhaps I should stop doing that, while I'm sure there're nice 'PvE-only' players out there it honestly sometimes seems like most of them don't deserve this niceness.2 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Magdalina You sound like I am labelling somebody. I am not. The actions are enough, it doesn't really matter whether I give name to such actions or not. It doesn't really matter whether such actions are intended by gameplay or not. There is no toggle for PVP and PVE accounts, but there is toggle for PVP behaviours and PVE behaviours. It is up to a person which behaviour he chooses while doing this or that activity. He may be toxic in PVE, he may be not toxic in PVP. But if activity (any activity) needs other unwilling (forced by rewards) participants, then it is a leeching activity. It is up to a player to make a choice and give an honest answer to himself, whether he needs unwilling for his amusement (whether he is against letting unwilling participants be free of his unwanted attention) or willing participants are enough.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.0 -
Inaya✭✭✭✭✭
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So PvPers should complain that they put exclusive leads (and other exclusive rewards) in dungeons?
I have stated many times in this thread, I don’t like exclusivities on either side of the aisle. Put monster sets in pvp rewards, I would not care and I believe many pvp players would appreciate it.
its selfsih of you to ask that zos change up a big part of their loot system to cater to a very small percent of people who seem to have a fear of pvp. you know if you die in pvp you can come back and go at it again...
get out of your comfort zone and if you dont want to then dont demand that I get into yours
I don't "fear" PVP or getting killed in PVP. As I've stated I enjoyed MYM and the PVPers I played with. I play to relax and have fun after a long day at work and other real life stresses. What I don't like is to be harrassed simply because it's obvious I'm an easy target. ZOS put PVE objectives in a PVP zone, THAT is why I am there.
If you want to take advantage of the fact that I don't PVP and don't fight back that says a lot about what kind of person you are.
I believe MOST PVPers are great people that take no satisfaction from griefing someone they see trying to complete a PVE objective. MOST PVPers also get no thrill from an easy kill, they enjoy the talent and strategy required. Sadly it's the minority that have come to this thread to post.Edited by Inaya on June 11, 2020 12:38PM5 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Magdalina You sound like I am labelling somebody. I am not. The actions are enough, it doesn't really matter whether I give name to such actions or not. It doesn't really matter whether such actions are intended by gameplay or not. There is no toggle for PVP and PVE accounts, but there is toggle for PVP behaviours and PVE behaviours. It is up to a person which behaviour he chooses while doing this or that activity. He may be toxic in PVE, he may be not toxic in PVP. But if activity (any activity) needs other unwilling (forced by rewards) participants, then it is a leeching activity. It is up to a player to make a choice and give an honest answer to himself, whether he needs unwilling for his amusement (whether he is against letting unwilling participants be free of his unwanted attention) or willing participants are enough.
Bar a few alliance war skills that are important for some PvE builds, there isn't really anything PvP exclusive that is actually needed for PvE. So i don't really understand how players can feel "forced" by something that's so irrelevant for their preferred type of content. If only it was the same the other way arround.
1 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
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You forgot leads, leads to furnishings and leads to mythics. You forgot event tickets.@Magdalina You sound like I am labelling somebody. I am not. The actions are enough, it doesn't really matter whether I give name to such actions or not. It doesn't really matter whether such actions are intended by gameplay or not. There is no toggle for PVP and PVE accounts, but there is toggle for PVP behaviours and PVE behaviours. It is up to a person which behaviour he chooses while doing this or that activity. He may be toxic in PVE, he may be not toxic in PVP. But if activity (any activity) needs other unwilling (forced by rewards) participants, then it is a leeching activity. It is up to a player to make a choice and give an honest answer to himself, whether he needs unwilling for his amusement (whether he is against letting unwilling participants be free of his unwanted attention) or willing participants are enough.
Bar a few alliance war skills that are important for some PvE builds, there isn't really anything PvP exclusive that is actually needed for PvE. So i don't really understand how players can feel "forced" by something that's so irrelevant for their preferred type of content. If only it was the same the other way arround.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.1 -
AWinterWolf✭✭✭✭Playing Devil's Advocate here, I see both points but I have to say that pvpers have to farm dungeons/arenas for gear, and that's often necessary for their builds to be a success.
Do I find it annoying that they put leads in IC? Yes. If I really want those leads, I'll get a group together, go at stupid o'clock or bite the bullet or work out/look up a build I can use whilst farming those leads.
Should zos have made them available outside of IC? I'm not sure I agree totally there, because where would you draw the line?
It's risk vs. reward. Is the lead you want, valuable enough to you, to venture into a place which is a mix of pvp and pve?@AWinterWolf, PC EU.
Main character: Healer, CP 1300+,
Completed:
vSS (Ice & Fire HM)
vMoL Trifecta
TTT
vKA HMs
vBRP
All Dungeon Trifectas.
Favourite quote:
History is a story written by the victors, who often paint themselves the best of lights.2 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
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You forgot leads, leads to furnishings and leads to mythics. You forgot event tickets.@Magdalina You sound like I am labelling somebody. I am not. The actions are enough, it doesn't really matter whether I give name to such actions or not. It doesn't really matter whether such actions are intended by gameplay or not. There is no toggle for PVP and PVE accounts, but there is toggle for PVP behaviours and PVE behaviours. It is up to a person which behaviour he chooses while doing this or that activity. He may be toxic in PVE, he may be not toxic in PVP. But if activity (any activity) needs other unwilling (forced by rewards) participants, then it is a leeching activity. It is up to a player to make a choice and give an honest answer to himself, whether he needs unwilling for his amusement (whether he is against letting unwilling participants be free of his unwanted attention) or willing participants are enough.
Bar a few alliance war skills that are important for some PvE builds, there isn't really anything PvP exclusive that is actually needed for PvE. So i don't really understand how players can feel "forced" by something that's so irrelevant for their preferred type of content. If only it was the same the other way arround.
How exactly does not getting those things impact your PvE experience in a negative way? Most Mythics aren't that great for PvE anyway, furnishings and event tickets (or rather the stuff you can buy from them) fall into the "optional cosmetics" category. Or do you also feel forced to buy all the crown store stuff?Edited by Rianai on June 11, 2020 12:55PM2 -
Inaya✭✭✭✭✭
✭AWinterWolf wrote: »Playing Devil's Advocate here, I see both points but I have to say that pvpers have to farm dungeons/arenas for gear, and that's often necessary for their builds to be a success.
Do I find it annoying that they put leads in IC? Yes. If I really want those leads, I'll get a group together, go at stupid o'clock or bite the bullet or work out/look up a build I can use whilst farming those leads.
Should zos have made them available outside of IC? I'm not sure I agree totally there, because where would you draw the line?
It's risk vs. reward. Is the lead you want, valuable enough to you, to venture into a place which is a mix of pvp and pve?
I agree with you 100%! I will go because some of the things are worth it to me, and sometimes I will be left alone, sometimes I'll be killed and sometimes I'll be ganked. It is only the last that I can't understand.0 -
Thoragaal✭✭✭✭✭
Yay, like me!
I know a lot of PvPers who originally came from Skyrim and were pure PvE but then they tried it out and grew to like it.
I hated pvp when I first started playing ESO and I was only doing pve. After IC released and I was doing sewers the pvp kind of grew on me, and now when I play (for the past 3½ years) it's 99% pvp
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
"I've always wanted to kick a duck up the arse" -Karl Pilkington, on the question what he'd do if it was the last day on earth.3 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
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It doesn't really matter whether mythics are good for pve or not. There are no substitutes (you can easily swap two fire-based 5-pieces sets, you have no other 1-piece set with comparable features). Furnishings are real end-game, so it is absolutely not optional cosmetics. It is optional only in the same sense as playing this game is optional (and without this optional cosmetics there is nothing to do in the game after completing all story quests).
You forgot leads, leads to furnishings and leads to mythics. You forgot event tickets.@Magdalina You sound like I am labelling somebody. I am not. The actions are enough, it doesn't really matter whether I give name to such actions or not. It doesn't really matter whether such actions are intended by gameplay or not. There is no toggle for PVP and PVE accounts, but there is toggle for PVP behaviours and PVE behaviours. It is up to a person which behaviour he chooses while doing this or that activity. He may be toxic in PVE, he may be not toxic in PVP. But if activity (any activity) needs other unwilling (forced by rewards) participants, then it is a leeching activity. It is up to a player to make a choice and give an honest answer to himself, whether he needs unwilling for his amusement (whether he is against letting unwilling participants be free of his unwanted attention) or willing participants are enough.
Bar a few alliance war skills that are important for some PvE builds, there isn't really anything PvP exclusive that is actually needed for PvE. So i don't really understand how players can feel "forced" by something that's so irrelevant for their preferred type of content. If only it was the same the other way arround.
How exactly does not getting those things impact your PvE experience in a negative way? Most Mythics aren't that great for PvE anyway, furnishings and event tickets (or rather the stuff you can buy from them) fall into the "optional cosmetics" category. Or do you also feel forced to buy all the crown store stuff?
I do not feel forced to buy crown store furnishings, I know that it is pay-to-win for housing community and I use it either with gold-to-crown exchange or with crowns from ESO+.
The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.1 -
AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »That would have been true if IC and Cirodiil were pure pvp locations. No NPC, no quests, no mobs, no bosses. Only other pvp-lovers who enjoy each other.
But that is not true. If I am forced to go there to kill a boss that does not mean I am there for pvp.
Thought I like the idea of locking all pvpers in there own jar so they deal purely with other pvp-lovers...
Most "pvp lovers" as you call them, play a well rounded game of PVE and PVP and like everyone else, had to run vet dungeons, trials and scry like mad to earn their gear. Honestly, it is the pure PVE players who are in a jar, put there by themselves and gripe when they have to leave the jar and experience the other half of the game. I can't remember the last time I saw a thread from someone who enjoys PVP, griping about having to enter a PVE zone to earn gear.
Enjoy the whole game, or enjoy half, that is a personal choice, no one is "forcing you" to go anywhere or do anything. You desiring something is also a personal issue, you made the choice to want it, knowing good and well what was required to get it and you apparently do not like what you see as the only option, when in reality, there are many option available to you, that you have simply chosen to ignore.
Why would removing all NPC's, quests, skyshards and everything else make those areas "pure", seems to me it would just make them boring. You thinking that gamers who enjoy PVP just want to kill each other and that is all they enjoy, is just your preconceived notion, with absolutely zero basis in fact. In reality, most of those players simply enjoy a challenge that a pre-programmed game mechanic can not yet deliver. AI just isn't at that point yet, but when it is, the PVE zones will be just like PVP zones today, with smart mobs making smart choices and you being able to walk up and whack them dead in a couple blows will be a thing of the past. I suspect you are going to hate it.
Dont remember the game now, but there was one I played where if you want to be engaged in pvp you have to rase spesial "flag". You did that - other players can attack you. Otherwise they cannot. For me that is the perfect sustem. Want challenge of constant threat - press the button and enjoy. But you can mess only with ones you enjoy it. Others are immune to your aggression.
No thanks, the game is full of safe zones already, we don't need to mess with the only 2 zones left in this game where people have to take care of themselves (not counting battlegrounds since there are no quests or mats to farm there). If that happened IC would become a pve zone with some people just dueling.
If you want something from a zone prepare for it or don't go, no one is forcing you to pvp.
So, if you take away the fan of backstabbing a pve passerby that would kill pvp in game?
That tells alot about local pvp
What kills PvPvE zones like Imperial City, where one of the central mechanics is farming NPCs for Tel Var then being able to fight other players to take their Tel Var, is allowing players to reap all of the rewards with none of the risks.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out what happens to the Tel Var economy when you let people flag themselves as safe and still farm for rewards.
I'd be fine with a "No- PVP flag" so you can have your story mode BUT you have to give up all the rewards. No Tel Var, no AP, no skyshards, no achievements. Nothing that ZOS fully intended for you to get while experiencing the risk of PVP in a PvPvE zone.
So yeah, that's gonna include no leads. Because ZOS didn't "forget" that Imperial City is a PvPvE zone. And as far as ESO is concerned, not your other game, its really not fair for you to get the same rewards as people who did the content as intended while you take on none of the risk.
No problem. Want to farm TV, AP => be PvP, want to do story-mode => be non-PvP.
Will that ruine anything?
Like I said, I'd be fine with a reward-less story mode that disables all gains from a PvPvE zone if you disable PVP. If you are also fine with that, it sounds like we agree! That would solve a lot of the "I just want to experience all the stories!" problems. A rewardless story mode for dungeons and trials would be cool, for much the same reasons.
I find its mostly a problem with rewards. Its mostly folks feeling "forced" into PVP-enabled zones while looking for certain rewards, and then feeling very aggrieved when PVP happens and prevents them from getting their rewards as easily as they'd like. Like, take that up with ZOS. Just realize that ZOS intentionally put those rewards in a PVP-enabled zone despite hearing these same complaints every single time they put any rewards in a PVP activity. They know and intended for you to risk fighting other players for those rewards.
In the case of leads, yeah, ZOS didn't forget that Imperial City is a PvPvE zone. As aggravating as some players might find it to be prevented from getting that reward as easily as they'd like, ZOS is obviously okay with it.
The thing is, all the Story parts of IC are already in safe areas. It's just the going to and from that you are at risk of being attacked.
Oof, its actually quite the opposite.
The Arena has a quest-required boss fight where you fight, gladiator-style, against waves of daedric bosses who are no pushover.
There's also as achievement for killing 100 players while in the Arena.
That's one of my primary examples of "Imperial City is a PvPvE zone where ZOS fully intended you to risk PVP in the middle of your PVE." Like, ZOS literally encouraged enemy players to fight in the same area as a quest-required boss fight.
Most of the NPC talky bits are in safe zones, but not even all of those. Most of the quest related actions, like forging the key in Elven Gardens or killing daedra in the Arboretum, are out in the open where you can be attacked at any time.
ZOS didn't intend for questing in IC to be a safe experience without the risk of PVP. Quite the opposite.
I meant the parts where you have to talk to NPCs and may want to take your time going through dialogue branches. The action parts of the quest are out in the open, but the quest involves being in a war zone, so it adds to the atmosphere.
Anyway, for anyone who is upset that there are leads in IC, you have several choices:
1. Let it go. You lived this far without those items. You can continue doing so.
2. Wait a couple of months. Things will calm down and IC won't be as busy.
3. Find a group and get your leads.
Of course, for the people who don't like doing trials, it's the actual opposite. The time to get into a trial group for leads is now, because people will be more willing to take you.
But in the end, ZOS did not design this system for the people who adamantly object to one form of content or another. They designed it for those who will try new types of content (or content they don't usually do) with a little nudge.
My guildies and I mostly PvE. We quest, we craft, we do overland stuff like world bosses and daily quests. Sometimes we do dungeons. Sometimes we go into Cyrodiil. Sometimes we go to IC. But for most of them, it's once in a blue moon and only with guildies. They don't object to the content per se, but they want to do it with people they know. And the leads give us the motivation to go do these things over the things we usually do.
It's a big game, and there's a lot to do. We'll get our leads in IC (and I'll hopefully get the last fish I need for the fishing achievement there). We'll get our leads in Trials. We'll eventually get all the leads. There's no rush.The Moot Councillor2 -
Vietfox✭✭✭✭✭
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So PvPers should complain that they put exclusive leads (and other exclusive rewards) in dungeons?
I have stated many times in this thread, I don’t like exclusivities on either side of the aisle. Put monster sets in pvp rewards, I would not care and I believe many pvp players would appreciate it.
its selfsih of you to ask that zos change up a big part of their loot system to cater to a very small percent of people who seem to have a fear of pvp. you know if you die in pvp you can come back and go at it again...
get out of your comfort zone and if you dont want to then dont demand that I get into yours
I don't "fear" PVP or getting killed in PVP. As I've stated I enjoyed MYM and the PVPers I played with. I play to relax and have fun after a long day at work and other real life stresses. What I don't like is to be harrassed simply because it's obvious I'm an easy target. ZOS put PVE objectives in a PVP zone, THAT is why I am there.
If you want to take advantage of the fact that I don't PVP and don't fight back that says a lot about what kind of person you are.
I believe MOST PVPers are great people that take no satisfaction from griefing someone they see trying to complete a PVE objective. MOST PVPers also get no thrill from an easy kill, they enjoy the talent and strategy required. Sadly it's the minority that have come to this thread to post.
is it our problem that you don't want to adapt to pvp zones and expect special treatment just because you think you "deserve" it?1 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
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It doesn't really matter whether mythics are good for pve or not. There are no substitutes (you can easily swap two fire-based 5-pieces sets, you have no other 1-piece set with comparable features). Furnishings are real end-game, so it is absolutely not optional cosmetics. It is optional only in the same sense as playing this game is optional (and without this optional cosmetics there is nothing to do in the game after completing all story quests).
You forgot leads, leads to furnishings and leads to mythics. You forgot event tickets.@Magdalina You sound like I am labelling somebody. I am not. The actions are enough, it doesn't really matter whether I give name to such actions or not. It doesn't really matter whether such actions are intended by gameplay or not. There is no toggle for PVP and PVE accounts, but there is toggle for PVP behaviours and PVE behaviours. It is up to a person which behaviour he chooses while doing this or that activity. He may be toxic in PVE, he may be not toxic in PVP. But if activity (any activity) needs other unwilling (forced by rewards) participants, then it is a leeching activity. It is up to a player to make a choice and give an honest answer to himself, whether he needs unwilling for his amusement (whether he is against letting unwilling participants be free of his unwanted attention) or willing participants are enough.
Bar a few alliance war skills that are important for some PvE builds, there isn't really anything PvP exclusive that is actually needed for PvE. So i don't really understand how players can feel "forced" by something that's so irrelevant for their preferred type of content. If only it was the same the other way arround.
How exactly does not getting those things impact your PvE experience in a negative way? Most Mythics aren't that great for PvE anyway, furnishings and event tickets (or rather the stuff you can buy from them) fall into the "optional cosmetics" category. Or do you also feel forced to buy all the crown store stuff?
I do not feel forced to buy crown store furnishings, I know that it is pay-to-win for housing community and I use it either with gold-to-crown exchange or with crowns from ESO+.
So you feel forced to use bad items? Just because it is something unique? Really? And your statement about furnishings doesn't really make sense. Either you need them all or you don't. And if you can get away without buying all furnishings from the crown store you certainly can also get away without getting a few furnishings from PvP enabled content.Edited by Rianai on June 11, 2020 1:27PM1 -
Inaya✭✭✭✭✭
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So PvPers should complain that they put exclusive leads (and other exclusive rewards) in dungeons?
I have stated many times in this thread, I don’t like exclusivities on either side of the aisle. Put monster sets in pvp rewards, I would not care and I believe many pvp players would appreciate it.
its selfsih of you to ask that zos change up a big part of their loot system to cater to a very small percent of people who seem to have a fear of pvp. you know if you die in pvp you can come back and go at it again...
get out of your comfort zone and if you dont want to then dont demand that I get into yours
I don't "fear" PVP or getting killed in PVP. As I've stated I enjoyed MYM and the PVPers I played with. I play to relax and have fun after a long day at work and other real life stresses. What I don't like is to be harrassed simply because it's obvious I'm an easy target. ZOS put PVE objectives in a PVP zone, THAT is why I am there.
If you want to take advantage of the fact that I don't PVP and don't fight back that says a lot about what kind of person you are.
I believe MOST PVPers are great people that take no satisfaction from griefing someone they see trying to complete a PVE objective. MOST PVPers also get no thrill from an easy kill, they enjoy the talent and strategy required. Sadly it's the minority that have come to this thread to post.
is it our problem that you don't want to adapt to pvp zones and expect special treatment just because you think you "deserve" it?
Wow, work on your reading comprehension because your comment has absolutely NOTHIN to do with my post
3 -
Vietfox✭✭✭✭✭
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So PvPers should complain that they put exclusive leads (and other exclusive rewards) in dungeons?
I have stated many times in this thread, I don’t like exclusivities on either side of the aisle. Put monster sets in pvp rewards, I would not care and I believe many pvp players would appreciate it.
its selfsih of you to ask that zos change up a big part of their loot system to cater to a very small percent of people who seem to have a fear of pvp. you know if you die in pvp you can come back and go at it again...
get out of your comfort zone and if you dont want to then dont demand that I get into yours
I don't "fear" PVP or getting killed in PVP. As I've stated I enjoyed MYM and the PVPers I played with. I play to relax and have fun after a long day at work and other real life stresses. What I don't like is to be harrassed simply because it's obvious I'm an easy target. ZOS put PVE objectives in a PVP zone, THAT is why I am there.
If you want to take advantage of the fact that I don't PVP and don't fight back that says a lot about what kind of person you are.
I believe MOST PVPers are great people that take no satisfaction from griefing someone they see trying to complete a PVE objective. MOST PVPers also get no thrill from an easy kill, they enjoy the talent and strategy required. Sadly it's the minority that have come to this thread to post.
is it our problem that you don't want to adapt to pvp zones and expect special treatment just because you think you "deserve" it?
Wow, work on your reading comprehension because your comment has absolutely NOTHIN to do with my post
yeah, i totally need to work on my reading comprehensionIf you want to take advantage of the fact that I don't PVP and don't fight back that says a lot about what kind of person you are.2 -
Inaya✭✭✭✭✭
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So PvPers should complain that they put exclusive leads (and other exclusive rewards) in dungeons?
I have stated many times in this thread, I don’t like exclusivities on either side of the aisle. Put monster sets in pvp rewards, I would not care and I believe many pvp players would appreciate it.
its selfsih of you to ask that zos change up a big part of their loot system to cater to a very small percent of people who seem to have a fear of pvp. you know if you die in pvp you can come back and go at it again...
get out of your comfort zone and if you dont want to then dont demand that I get into yours
I don't "fear" PVP or getting killed in PVP. As I've stated I enjoyed MYM and the PVPers I played with. I play to relax and have fun after a long day at work and other real life stresses. What I don't like is to be harrassed simply because it's obvious I'm an easy target. ZOS put PVE objectives in a PVP zone, THAT is why I am there.
If you want to take advantage of the fact that I don't PVP and don't fight back that says a lot about what kind of person you are.
I believe MOST PVPers are great people that take no satisfaction from griefing someone they see trying to complete a PVE objective. MOST PVPers also get no thrill from an easy kill, they enjoy the talent and strategy required. Sadly it's the minority that have come to this thread to post.
is it our problem that you don't want to adapt to pvp zones and expect special treatment just because you think you "deserve" it?
Wow, work on your reading comprehension because your comment has absolutely NOTHIN to do with my post
yeah, i totally need to work on my reading comprehensionIf you want to take advantage of the fact that I don't PVP and don't fight back that says a lot about what kind of person you are.
I don't "fear" PVP or getting killed in PVP. As I've stated I enjoyed MYM and the PVPers I played with. I play to relax and have fun after a long day at work and other real life stresses. What I don't like is to be harrassed simply because it's obvious I'm an easy target. ZOS put PVE objectives in a PVP zone, THAT is why I am there.
I believe MOST PVPers are great people that take no satisfaction from griefing someone they see trying to complete a PVE objective. MOST PVPers also get no thrill from an easy kill, they enjoy the talent and strategy required. Sadly it's the minority that have come to this thread to post.
Hahahaha nice try, requoting one line of my post when the others contradict your comment in its entirety. Can we assume you are not part of the MOST?
You'are just looking for a fight and I'm not going to give you one. Have a great day and enjoy life!Edited by Inaya on June 11, 2020 1:40PM4 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
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So you're implying that the only issue is consistency, and had all 5/5 pieces of these items been lockeed behind PvP, you'd have no issues with it?
I'm not implying - I'm directly saying that this is one of the main issues with it. my preference would be 5/5 pvp or 5/5 pve or best case scenario - each of those parts has pvp AND pve source.
dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
Vietfox✭✭✭✭✭
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So PvPers should complain that they put exclusive leads (and other exclusive rewards) in dungeons?
I have stated many times in this thread, I don’t like exclusivities on either side of the aisle. Put monster sets in pvp rewards, I would not care and I believe many pvp players would appreciate it.
its selfsih of you to ask that zos change up a big part of their loot system to cater to a very small percent of people who seem to have a fear of pvp. you know if you die in pvp you can come back and go at it again...
get out of your comfort zone and if you dont want to then dont demand that I get into yours
I don't "fear" PVP or getting killed in PVP. As I've stated I enjoyed MYM and the PVPers I played with. I play to relax and have fun after a long day at work and other real life stresses. What I don't like is to be harrassed simply because it's obvious I'm an easy target. ZOS put PVE objectives in a PVP zone, THAT is why I am there.
If you want to take advantage of the fact that I don't PVP and don't fight back that says a lot about what kind of person you are.
I believe MOST PVPers are great people that take no satisfaction from griefing someone they see trying to complete a PVE objective. MOST PVPers also get no thrill from an easy kill, they enjoy the talent and strategy required. Sadly it's the minority that have come to this thread to post.
is it our problem that you don't want to adapt to pvp zones and expect special treatment just because you think you "deserve" it?
Wow, work on your reading comprehension because your comment has absolutely NOTHIN to do with my post
yeah, i totally need to work on my reading comprehensionIf you want to take advantage of the fact that I don't PVP and don't fight back that says a lot about what kind of person you are.
I don't "fear" PVP or getting killed in PVP. As I've stated I enjoyed MYM and the PVPers I played with. I play to relax and have fun after a long day at work and other real life stresses. What I don't like is to be harrassed simply because it's obvious I'm an easy target. ZOS put PVE objectives in a PVP zone, THAT is why I am there.
I believe MOST PVPers are great people that take no satisfaction from griefing someone they see trying to complete a PVE objective. MOST PVPers also get no thrill from an easy kill, they enjoy the talent and strategy required. Sadly it's the minority that have come to this thread to post.
Hahahaha nice try, requoting one line of my post when the others contradict your comment in its entirety. Can we assume you are not part of the MOST?
Can we assume you just don't want to get good at the game so that's why you don't like pvp? 1 -
ImmortalCX✭✭✭✭✭.
you feeling compelled to run content you don't like does NOT make it a good design. and no its not different - which is the point! feeling compelled, cajoled, call it whatever - to do content you don't enjoy is NOT a good thing! playing a video game for fun should NOT feel like a chore.
While on the topic, maybe a lot of people would agree that daily quests since Morrowind has been nothing but a chore.
Not difficult, not really rewarding in terms of gear and mostly done for motifs.
"Join the hype train before the next DLC is released and it's too late!" encourages people (at least the ones I know) to log on and do it, but nobody actually enjoys their time doing it.
Sorry if I'm derailing the thread...
IMO, what they should do is make rare motifs bound so that there is real incentive to run them.
The problem with dailies is that they are for poor "mules" to run. Rich players will just buy the motifs.
If certain motifs were bound, then the associated writs would have real value to the players who took the time to farm them.
That is what I like about antiquities. The things "earned" through the system are bound. Anything that can be bought/sold in the game becomes a commodity.0
This discussion has been closed.