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So with Greymoor old players now missing 4 skillpoints, bad tutorial system
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Wait, hang on. People want to do all 4 tutorials on the same character ?
Believe it or not - there are people who play without making rounds of alts.
In fact, some of us don't have alts at all.
As someone who started her ONLY character when the game was launched; this is the first I'm hearing of missed points (I don't read forums on min/maxing) at all. And I'm still confused.
So because I made a character back when the game was new i"ve missed ...one bonus skill point for only doing the tutorial (at the time) once? Or I've missed four?
I mean I'm not maxxed on skill points anyway but just wanted to clarify what, in actuality, I won't be getting? (lol)
It is a bad mechanic done in a bad way. If nothing else it should be clearly described, somewhere, in game. It should't be that I've played this game for years now and I had no idea at all.1 -
virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭mystkldrgnb14_ESO wrote: »Wait, hang on. People want to do all 4 tutorials on the same character ?
Believe it or not - there are people who play without making rounds of alts.
In fact, some of us don't have alts at all.
As someone who started her ONLY character when the game was launched; this is the first I'm hearing of missed points (I don't read forums on min/maxing) at all. And I'm still confused.
So because I made a character back when the game was new i"ve missed ...one bonus skill point for only doing the tutorial (at the time) once? Or I've missed four?
I mean I'm not maxxed on skill points anyway but just wanted to clarify what, in actuality, I won't be getting? (lol)
It is a bad mechanic done in a bad way. If nothing else it should be clearly described, somewhere, in game. It should't be that I've played this game for years now and I had no idea at all.
You’re missing one skill point compared to characters made with Morrowind or later chapters.
People seem to be misinterpreting Urich’s Skill Point Finder as suggesting that all the tutorial points are acquirable on the same toon. They are all mutually exclusive. Urich’s allows you to see which, if any, tutorial point (singular) you have.
Should the oversight be corrected for characters made without any chapters on that account? Yes. But it’s one point, not four.4 -
Aisleyne✭✭✭✭✭mystkldrgnb14_ESO wrote: »So because I made a character back when the game was new i"ve missed ...one bonus skill point for only doing the tutorial (at the time) once? Or I've missed four?
The most you could be missing is 1 point if you made your character before the tutorial started rewarding a skill point.
Some people are just having trouble wrapping their heads around the fact that when a new chapter comes out, the new version of the tutorial isn't its own quest with its own skill point. It's a change to the form of the tutorial quest.
There is only one tutorial quest per character and you get 1 skill point whether you choose to complete it or skip it on a new character.2 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I get the annoyance of losing out on the expansion skill point if you had an old character and it's a valid annoyance.
But if you are going to exaggerate to make it sound like you are missing out on 4 skill points when no one has the ability to do every intro quest in an expansion, then you are losing the battle before it starts. Someone that makes decisions in zos, if they took the time to read the complaint, you'll lose them with the lie and be dismissed. So you are doing yourself no favors. You are missing one skill point if you have a pre-MW character.
And honestly, there are plenty of skill points in the game. My main questing character has 439 out of 455 skill points, only missing the remainder of the Alliance War points and has Antiquities fully pointed out and still 14 points left over and I don't tend to avoid putting points into anything I might use. The only character that is tight on points is my main crafter and that's because he has also built for end-game tanking and skilled out enough to DD for questing and such and doing Antiquities fully on him would have been tight (but when the final DLC of the year comes out with usually 10ish skill points I'll prob be ok there).
In the end though, I will agree it's annoying to be one short of anyone that came into the game from MW on and does act as a reminder of how little they care about old school players. But that's all it is annoying. There are more glaring ways they've screwed over vet players IMO.-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC0 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
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If missing 1 skill point isn't making the game worse for those affected, I'm sure that if we removed 200 from you and denied you the ability to get them, while everyone else would be unaffected, it wouldn't be a problem either, because lack of skill points is not making the game worse, right?
Your response is to equate one skill point to two hundred skill points?
How does that even make sense?
[Snip]
[Edited for removed content]
Well 0 * 200 = 0, and you said there was 0 loss with 1 skill point, so that means there is 0 loss with 200.0 -
bearbelly✭✭✭✭✭
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If missing 1 skill point isn't making the game worse for those affected, I'm sure that if we removed 200 from you and denied you the ability to get them, while everyone else would be unaffected, it wouldn't be a problem either, because lack of skill points is not making the game worse, right?
Your response is to equate one skill point to two hundred skill points?
How does that even make sense?
[Snip]
[Edited for removed content]
you said there was 0 loss with 1 skill point
No.
I did not say that.
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ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
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If missing 1 skill point isn't making the game worse for those affected, I'm sure that if we removed 200 from you and denied you the ability to get them, while everyone else would be unaffected, it wouldn't be a problem either, because lack of skill points is not making the game worse, right?
Your response is to equate one skill point to two hundred skill points?
How does that even make sense?
[Snip]
[Edited for removed content]
you said there was 0 loss with 1 skill point
No.
I did not say that.
You must have really short memory.
So does or doesn't the lack of a skill point make the game worse? If you say it doesn't, then my 200 skill points argument is valid, and if it does, then I expect an apology.Edited by ZeroXFF on June 9, 2020 5:56PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
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If missing 1 skill point isn't making the game worse for those affected, I'm sure that if we removed 200 from you and denied you the ability to get them, while everyone else would be unaffected, it wouldn't be a problem either, because lack of skill points is not making the game worse, right?
It is just another bug in the bucket of bugs that make the game less enjoyable, but together they add up.
I for one couldn't give a single flying **** about cyro performance because I never play there, does it mean it's not a problem and therefore should not be addressed?
[Snip]
[Removed for bait]
This analogy does not make sense. We are not talking about 200 SPs, just one and it will remain only one. One in a game with well over 400 SPs. It is not increasing every year as is suggested in the OP.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
If missing 1 skill point isn't making the game worse for those affected, I'm sure that if we removed 200 from you and denied you the ability to get them, while everyone else would be unaffected, it wouldn't be a problem either, because lack of skill points is not making the game worse, right?
It is just another bug in the bucket of bugs that make the game less enjoyable, but together they add up.
I for one couldn't give a single flying **** about cyro performance because I never play there, does it mean it's not a problem and therefore should not be addressed?
[Snip]
[Removed for bait]
This analogy does not make sense. We are not talking about 200 SPs, just one and it will remain only one. One in a game with well over 400 SPs. It is not increasing every year as is suggested in the OP.
Look at the context of that post. The guy I'm replying to ridiculed the idea of a lack of a skill point making the game worse. I'm pointing out that however much worse it is, the effect is not 0, otherwise neither him or you would have tried to tell me that making 200 skill points inaccessible was an outrageous proposition.
Just like with lag... Do you notice a difference between 100 ms and 101 ms? But is one undeniably worse than the other? Absolutely!
He suggests one SP is not going to ruin the game. It does not.
The analogy using latency does not fit either. Few of us have all the SPs in the game to begin with which means we can get another SP if needed. We do not have the same control over latency.
He does that NOW, after I pointed out how wrong he is. Seriously, look at the context.
I looked at what you quoted to prove to him he said what you claimed, though it really did not.
Anyhow, I hope you can enjoy the game. That is what is truly important in this context.0 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
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If missing 1 skill point isn't making the game worse for those affected, I'm sure that if we removed 200 from you and denied you the ability to get them, while everyone else would be unaffected, it wouldn't be a problem either, because lack of skill points is not making the game worse, right?
Your response is to equate one skill point to two hundred skill points?
How does that even make sense?
[Snip]
[Edited for removed content]
you said there was 0 loss with 1 skill point
No.
I did not say that.
You must have a really short memory.
So does or doesn't the lack of a skill point make the game worse? If you say it doesn't, then my 200 skill points argument is valid, and if it does, then I expect an apology.
You should make balloon animals for a living, because you have a special knack for twisting things.
Lacking one skill point does not in any way come anywhere close to equaling the impact of lacking 200.
Why would you even try to use that as a debate point?
I also never said that the missing point shouldn't be fixed, that was just another thing you decided to throw in there as something I said.
However, ONE missing skill point does NOT break the game. It might be a minor annoyance, but it does not impede your ability to play the game. At ALL.
Missing 200 definitely would.
But you know that.
And don't hold your breath waiting for an apology.
That's not what you said though. There was no argument about magnitude in your statement, you merely ridiculed my statement about the existence of a difference.
My entire argument is about magnitude.
It is a single point. One.
If we only had ten points in the entire game, you would have an argument. But we have over 400.
Lacking one point out of 400+ points does not make the game worse.
What is it, EXACTLY, that you are prevented from doing without that one point?
I explained it in the previous comments. I also explained that it doesn't matter, because it's a bug and as such has to be fixed. And in its current unfixed state it's just another thing broken about the game, which you for some reason don't want to be fixed. By that logic I guess let's have cyro have permanent 20s lag since it doesn't affect 90% of the population anyways.
I even saw fixes in patch notes where when returning one of the writ quests the wrong chest opening animation was playing. Don't tell me that it was a more important and game-breaking thing than the inaccessibility of a skill point.
TL;DR: It's a bug, it has to be fixed, and the defense of incompetence coming from you and certain other people in this thread is very annoying.0 -
ZOS_GregoryVmodGreetings all,
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Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
Forum Rules | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Home Page | Help Site0 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Its an oversight. Low on list, still needs a fix.
There isn't any real reason to *not* fix it that I have read other than "I don't care about it".
Technically I don't care about words being misspelled in quest text, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed.1 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Um, first off, making the right choice in the Mages Guild hasn't hampered me in the slightest.
Second, I was unaware that we could do more than one tutorial on the same character. Oh, wait. Looks like at most I'm only out one skill point from doing the old Coldharbor tutorial.
Finally, my main character is a PVE tank, PVP Healer, and my master crafter with a lot of skill lines filled in. Maybe some players are feeling the pinch of not enough skill points? But I'm not.
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Aliyavana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Um, first off, making the right choice in the Mages Guild hasn't hampered me in the slightest.
Second, I was unaware that we could do more than one tutorial on the same character. Oh, wait. Looks like at most I'm only out one skill point from doing the old Coldharbor tutorial.
Finally, my main character is a PVE tank, PVP Healer, and my master crafter with a lot of skill lines filled in. Maybe some players are feeling the pinch of not enough skill points? But I'm not.
But Valaste really wanted to see the butterflies with uncle Sheo, you deprived her of that opportunity you monster!Edited by Aliyavana on June 9, 2020 7:35PM0 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's not a bug, it's a change introduced with the Morrowind tutorial. It doesn't need fixing given the amount of additional skill points that have also been introduced in that time. Completionists with a single character created before Morrowind can still get every skill point available to them, enabling them to complete that character, but they should explain how they can consider themselves completionists wth only one character slot used and only one class/race/alliance/build played. If they play more than one character they have had the opportunity to benefit from the additional skill point in subsequent tutorials, often with an additional character slot offered to them - and which they will doubtless have wished to use as they are completionists.3 -
Jacozilla✭✭✭✭✭CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »just on separate sub topic of bad tutorial system - it needs a very obvious, in game disclaimer that if you skip tutorial morrowind+, you will not get the extra skill point.
Note that I’m not making some argument that 1 point will make huge difference and agree more than plenty to earn overall. Just saying it is shoddy design and bizarre to not even mention the major reward for doing the tutorial (extra point) vs skip.
It is not made clear, in fact no mention at all, on skip tutorial confirmation dialog after creating a post morrowind character that you don’t get the extra point unless tutorial is actually played through.
Im pretty sure you get the skillpoint if you skip tutorial
The extra point comes from normal tutorial which you have to do ofc
I tested it. You do get the extra skill point still.
Either you or I are bugged then. I created 7 new chars on brand new 2nd account just before greymoor launch and all 6 chars that skipped Elswyr tutorial did not get extra point. The 1 char I did play Elswyr tutorial did.
By normal tutorial I presume you mean the soul shriven prison quest which is optional - you don’t have to do it but can be accessed even if create char tutorial is skipped. This quest does not give a skill point, just 1 shard.
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Dark_Lord_Kuro✭✭✭✭✭
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also if you consider wrong choice with mages guild story, you will lost 2 more skillpoints
why this system was designed at first place?
P.s. also most people don't need the skill point, they just want it for completionism.
False, no new character can get all of the tutorial
The wailing proson one+one of the other one depending of the most recent chapter the player as access, also if none are accessible the player still start in the wailing prison
So at MAX you are missing 1 skill point1 -
Jacozilla✭✭✭✭✭It's not a bug, it's a change introduced with the Morrowind tutorial. It doesn't need fixing given the amount of additional skill points that have also been introduced in that time. Completionists with a single character created before Morrowind can still get every skill point available to them, enabling them to complete that character, but they should explain how they can consider themselves completionists wth only one character slot used and only one class/race/alliance/build played. If they play more than one character they have had the opportunity to benefit from the additional skill point in subsequent tutorials, often with an additional character slot offered to them - and which they will doubtless have wished to use as they are completionists.
Can't speak for other self described completionists, obviously can't read minds or presume we're all the same.
So for myself, despite having max all chars, max all skills/crafts etc main account, plus 2nd account w/ 7 new chars started, let me tell you my easy answer -->
As a completionist, even near OCD about it, I feel no compunction in skipping things the game does not clearly designate as an achievement or marked activity.
IF there were an achieve for create 1 char, create 5, 10, then max 18 - yes, I would have chased that as a completion goal if I had not already done so. Same for if there was an achieve for have 1 char in every alliance, 1 of every race, etc. Since there is not, I feel no completion need to do so (although as noted, out of sheer longevity in the game, I've accomplished all those bc after 6 years, even at slow pace getting max all 18 chars is no big deal)
So in conclusion, imo you are drawing a false connection to what a completionist like me (again in no way speaking for a group or all) feels the need to chase. You're implying we can't want to get that tutorial quest point if we haven't also demonstrated same desire for having more than 1 char, etc. I would bet you a large # of self described completionists would say they WOULD chase having all classes, all races, all chars, if that were an actual marked game achievement in journal.
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Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
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I'd be a little more annoyed that *all* the tutorials now seem to force you to use a twohanded weapon when you start. Even if you never intend to actually play with it. Why should I open that skill line when I'll never use it again past the tutorial? Yes, now the level up rewards give you a respec scroll, but why should i have to use it because of the way the game makes you start your character?
On new characters I don't want to use 2 hand on, I have my crafter make whatever weapon(s) I plan for them to actually use; since I skip the tutorials I don't have to mess with the skill line, so when I hit Vvardenfell I head out to Seyda Neen and go north from there - there's always a few alits close by to get the weapon skills opened up on the right weapons.
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Hotdog_23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have over 400 skill points. Only missing some of the PVP one’s (29-30). Would have them all but leveling my 17 other characters to level 10 in PVP instead.
Completed all quest up to date on my main. I can use all the skill points I get. All crafting passive taken except research since I have completed it all already. Between all the passive for the world, guild, race, weapons, Alliance War and class skills lines it takes a ton of skill points. Do I need to take all passives, no but it’s nice to have them for a complete character that can do it all.
The one missing skill point is not breaking or hurting my main, but I would like it for completion sake. 9 of the other 17 are level 10 in Alliance War already and the remaining 8 are level 9 for Alliance War. Soon I will be working on the last 29-30 skill points missing for my main. Getting to level 50 is my goal for my main by next summer.
Be safe and have fun.
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TX12001rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You are aware their are more skill points in the game then their are perk points right?1 -
Env_t✭✭✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »You are aware their are more skill points in the game then their are perk points right?
yes0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
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If it is achievement-related then Zos just needs to remove the achievement.
How many players have every skill point available in the game? Figure they are the ones interested in completionism of skill points.0 -
Jacozilla✭✭✭✭✭
If it is achievement-related then Zos just needs to remove the achievement.
How many players have every skill point available in the game? Figure they are the ones interested in completionism of skill points.
It’s not about already being at 100% completed and then feeling annoyed at the very last unobtainable one. It is just as annoying (for some ppl) to be at start of the long road ahead with barely 1% but know that due to this bad design will never be able to fully obtain every point.
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heaven13✭✭✭✭✭
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If missing 1 skill point isn't making the game worse for those affected, I'm sure that if we removed 200 from you and denied you the ability to get them, while everyone else would be unaffected, it wouldn't be a problem either, because lack of skill points is not making the game worse, right?
Your response is to equate one skill point to two hundred skill points?
How does that even make sense?
[Snip]
[Edited for removed content]
you said there was 0 loss with 1 skill point
No.
I did not say that.
You must have a really short memory.
So does or doesn't the lack of a skill point make the game worse? If you say it doesn't, then my 200 skill points argument is valid, and if it does, then I expect an apology.
You should make balloon animals for a living, because you have a special knack for twisting things.
Lacking one skill point does not in any way come anywhere close to equaling the impact of lacking 200.
Why would you even try to use that as a debate point?
I also never said that the missing point shouldn't be fixed, that was just another thing you decided to throw in there as something I said.
However, ONE missing skill point does NOT break the game. It might be a minor annoyance, but it does not impede your ability to play the game. At ALL.
Missing 200 definitely would.
But you know that.
And don't hold your breath waiting for an apology.
That's not what you said though. There was no argument about magnitude in your statement, you merely ridiculed my statement about the existence of a difference.
My entire argument is about magnitude.
It is a single point. One.
If we only had ten points in the entire game, you would have an argument. But we have over 400.
Lacking one point out of 400+ points does not make the game worse.
What is it, EXACTLY, that you are prevented from doing without that one point?
I explained it in the previous comments. I also explained that it doesn't matter, because it's a bug and as such has to be fixed. And in its current unfixed state it's just another thing broken about the game, which you for some reason don't want to be fixed. By that logic I guess let's have cyro have permanent 20s lag since it doesn't affect 90% of the population anyways.
I even saw fixes in patch notes where when returning one of the writ quests the wrong chest opening animation was playing. Don't tell me that it was a more important and game-breaking thing than the inaccessibility of a skill point.
TL;DR: It's a bug, it has to be fixed, and the defense of incompetence coming from you and certain other people in this thread is very annoying.
Once again, it is not a bug. A poorly designed mechanic, yes. But a bug, no. New characters always get a skillpoint from the tutorial. Old characters can't access new tutorials (which is a damn shame, not for the skill point but for the story which is an entirely different conversation) but all characters need to be able to access Soulshriven in Coldharbour which is the start of the main base game quest. You can see in this ESO live that it is absolutely intentional. "If you've done the Wailing Prison tutorial, you already got your skill point for doing that so, you know, you don't get another one."
If anything is a bug, it's that new characters get the skill point in the Coldharbour tutorial. I believe it was originally intended that if you had received a skill point from Morrowind tutorial, you weren't supposed to get the skill point from the prophet; they were supposed to be mutually exclusive (though I can't find the ESO live where that was stated since it's not in the one previously linked). So really, post-Morrowind characters should have one less skill point to put them on the same field as pre-Morrowind characters.PC/NAMountain God | Leave No Bone Unbroken | Apex Predator | Pure Lunacy | Depths Defier | No Rest for the Wicked | In Defiance of DeathMeet my characters :
Defanged the Devourer | Nature's Wrath | Relentless Raider | True Genius | Bane of Thorns | Subterranean Smasher | Ardent Bibliophile
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vDSA | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+2 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA | vRGIT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL THE SAME NOW, THANKS ZOS1 -
CMDR_Un1k0rn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »just on separate sub topic of bad tutorial system - it needs a very obvious, in game disclaimer that if you skip tutorial morrowind+, you will not get the extra skill point.
Note that I’m not making some argument that 1 point will make huge difference and agree more than plenty to earn overall. Just saying it is shoddy design and bizarre to not even mention the major reward for doing the tutorial (extra point) vs skip.
It is not made clear, in fact no mention at all, on skip tutorial confirmation dialog after creating a post morrowind character that you don’t get the extra point unless tutorial is actually played through.
Im pretty sure you get the skillpoint if you skip tutorial
The extra point comes from normal tutorial which you have to do ofc
I tested it. You do get the extra skill point still.
Either you or I are bugged then. I created 7 new chars on brand new 2nd account just before greymoor launch and all 6 chars that skipped Elswyr tutorial did not get extra point. The 1 char I did play Elswyr tutorial did.
By normal tutorial I presume you mean the soul shriven prison quest which is optional - you don’t have to do it but can be accessed even if create char tutorial is skipped. This quest does not give a skill point, just 1 shard.
Two skill points from levelling up to lvl 3 within the tutorial. One for lvl 2 and one for lvl 3. lvl 1 does not have any skill points. light/heavy attacks only unless you immediately buy a Skyshard achievement. One skill point from the tutorial quest. All tested in Greymoor. That's a total of three skill points: One for each class skill line so you can start levelling all three.
Made another character, skipped tutorial. Starts at lvl 3 with three skill points. I rest my case.Edited by CMDR_Un1k0rn on June 10, 2020 1:02PMIn-game username: Un1korn | Happy member of the PCNA UESP guild (Resident Daggerfall Covenant enjoyer) | Main & basically only character: Crucian Vulpin, Imperial Dragonknight of the Daggerfall Covenant, and Undaunted Bulwark (I tank) | Mountain bike enjoyer and vulpine appreciator | If you know me from PCEU: No | To ZOS: THANK YOU FOR LETTING ME BRING MY HORSE INTO BATTLE!0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
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If it is achievement-related then Zos just needs to remove the achievement.
How many players have every skill point available in the game? Figure they are the ones interested in completionism of skill points.
It’s not about already being at 100% completed and then feeling annoyed at the very last unobtainable one. It is just as annoying (for some ppl) to be at start of the long road ahead with barely 1% but know that due to this bad design will never be able to fully obtain every point.
It is about 100% completed by definition. They specifically said it is about completionism which is about doing it all.0
