Skill Gap in PvP

JonnytheKing · June 2020

As we have seen zos wants to lower skill lv in pvp . as we have seen this thu A/C nerf , bash canceling nerf . there is lots more bet u get the idea , and it doesnt feel like there done yet.
***let me be clear here , poeple getting carryed by gear / class / is part of the problem a really good player can lose to avrage player using cheese , this is what im talking about when i say the skill gab is too small. i feel poeple are confusing player skill with game balance

Sergykid · June 2020

Skill gap is too big

pvp still requires a heavy amount of dedication and research. Not much information is given during and after the combat. You must have addons or check external sources like eso-sets. High unbalance aside, you don't even have a place where you can learn what you are doing. Either chaotic open world in which you become a zerger or free prey, either 4v4v4 where you might learn something but only visually.

catnamedwill · June 2020

Skill gab is too small

@Sergykid What's wrong with PvP requiring heavy amount of dedication and research? Should everything be handed to players who don't want to invest the time or effort?

Xebov · June 2020

Skill gap is too big

PvP has many strange aspects. This starts already with different attribute calculation (you have less resources in pvp) which is irritating for new players. If you die in PvP its very hard to figure out what you did wrong and find a path to improve. PvP also heavily focuses on fast kills which limits build diversity alot.

catnamedwill wrote: »

What's wrong with PvP requiring heavy amount of dedication and research?

Because its applied to the entry level. Normally you would expect the entry level to be low so players jump in and get interested in the mode. Only if they are interested they will dedicate the time for researching. So players can grow over time and become better. The current situation is that you already require alot of knowledge and do alot of research to just be able to jump in. If you jump in unprepared (at least for BGs) you will no get anywhere. This is a huge issue as it hampers the system of drawing in more players.

Sergykid · June 2020

Skill gap is too big

catnamedwill wrote: »

@Sergykid What's wrong with PvP requiring heavy amount of dedication and research? Should everything be handed to players who don't want to invest the time or effort?

yep, as above mentioned. It's okay for the best players to be those that put in the time and effort. But is it normal to be able to enter only if you know what you are doing? Competitive pvp is something like a secluded club where only elites enter.

Artorias24 · June 2020

Skill gap is just right

Animation Canceling, bash weaving and more is not necessary to be competetive at PvP.

You can be good and still get somewhere without those "tools".

If you want to get better you start learning those mechanics. You Invest your time in your builds, figure out what skills are good for you and more

Zer0_CooL · June 2020

The true issue is not the gap between player skill. It is the time gap between player input and reaction of the game. Which is the actual reason ZOS is slowing down the gameplay by these changes.

JonnytheKing · June 2020

Skill gab is too small

Artorias24 wrote: »

Animation Canceling, bash weaving and more is not necessary to be competetive at PvP.

You can be good and still get somewhere without those "tools".

If you want to get better you start learning those mechanics. You Invest your time in your builds, figure out what skills are good for you and more

but this is part of the problem , builds and skills shouldnt be king , playing input should be , some one shoundnt be carryed by builds or choose of skills

JonnytheKing · June 2020

Skill gab is too small

Sergykid wrote: »

pvp still requires a heavy amount of dedication and research. Not much information is given during and after the combat. You must have addons or check external sources like eso-sets. High unbalance aside, you don't even have a place where you can learn what you are doing. Either chaotic open world in which you become a zerger or free prey, either 4v4v4 where you might learn something but only visually.

there is lots of info out there if u look , and ask

LuxiasCaelum13 · June 2020

Skill gap is just right

It's just fine.

Sergykid wrote: »

catnamedwill wrote: »

@Sergykid What's wrong with PvP requiring heavy amount of dedication and research? Should everything be handed to players who don't want to invest the time or effort?

yep, as above mentioned. It's okay for the best players to be those that put in the time and effort. But is it normal to be able to enter only if you know what you are doing? Competitive pvp is something like a secluded club where only elites enter.

PvP works just like any other facet of real life, the first times you try something new you will suck at it, and the more time and research you invest the better you'll become. With enough time and dedication everyone can master everything.
No, PvP is not an "elite club", that sounds almost like a bad excuse. That "elitist players" are people like you and me, they were completely lost when they entered PvP for the first time, but they decided to invest their time to learn how to play. It's not like if they are a privileged minority blessed by some magical wand, they are the result of their effort. Being unprepared or confused the first times is ok. Being unprepared or confused at your 100th combat is not. Being always unprepared and confused depends only on you.

Just like @catnamedwill said, you can't just expect to enter PvP for the first time and get everything handed.

Wing · June 2020

Skill gap is too big

eh, its pretty big but mostly due to weird interactions and cheese.

the kind of cheese where you see patch notes that reads as:

"nerf some weird set to not trigger some weird effect on some obscure action"

your response as a normal player is:

"huh okay, whatever"

then you see the pvp response of:

"OH C'MON WTF IT WAS FINE jeez more catering to the NOOBS PVP IS DEAD WTF IT TOOK SKILL!" etc.

that kind of cheese

-class balance is still in issue (stamcro as of greymoor)
-performance is garbage
-and lack of noobs due to skill gap only makes the skill gap worse.

its no coincidence that if you PvE the average CP you see is around 400 and yet in PvP everyone you run into seems to be over CP 1000, the only people that still PvP are those good at it, so good luck to any noobs trying to swim in that pond.

we really need some legit changes to pvp, like group sizes, how healing interactions work, Cyro design changes in layout or terrain, F'n something.

Nemesis7884 · June 2020

im happy with evwrything that draws in more players

Firstmep · June 2020

Skill gap is just right

Anyone can pick up this game and become good at pvp if they put in the time and effort.
Why would a new player be in equal footing with someone who's been pvping for years?
Btw I'm playing in no cp, where the statistical gap between players is already a lot lower than cp pvp.
I like the fact that a well though out and executed build can do better than whatever mess a new player brings.
This is still an mmo, if you want absolute equality go play a moba, although casuals still get their arses handed to them by dedicated players even there.
If anything a mentoring system for both pve and pvp would be much better, to bring veteran and new players closer, both in skill and community wise.

relentless_turnip · June 2020

Skill gap is just right

Xebov wrote: »

PvP has many strange aspects. This starts already with different attribute calculation (you have less resources in pvp) which is irritating for new players. If you die in PvP its very hard to figure out what you did wrong and find a path to improve. PvP also heavily focuses on fast kills which limits build diversity alot.

catnamedwill wrote: »

What's wrong with PvP requiring heavy amount of dedication and research?

Because its applied to the entry level. Normally you would expect the entry level to be low so players jump in and get interested in the mode. Only if they are interested they will dedicate the time for researching. So players can grow over time and become better. The current situation is that you already require alot of knowledge and do alot of research to just be able to jump in. If you jump in unprepared (at least for BGs) you will no get anywhere. This is a huge issue as it hampers the system of drawing in more players.

It doesn't require research, just a half decent build and a lot of practice. ZOS have already made sets like zaans and various other proc sets literally do all your damage for you. Muscle memory is the biggest hurdle. Like seeing the white circle at your feet and blocking. Moving behind something and reapplying your buffs. What ZOS could do is improve the MMR system so you don't get paired with experienced players even on an alt.

Duhne · June 2020

Skill gap is too big

Why would you want to add more gap when boring min max no life farming trolls are already killing the fun

OP build / set is the most important part in your skill gap thing. There should not be this much difference with a good build
Add on top broken or weird mechanics and math you have to know, not even mentionned in the game

The gap is already too big with people not using crafted potion and poison (and there's a lot)

So much stuff behind the farm door make many players like AP dummies not having a chance other than joining a group to outnumber

What playstyle do you see the most ?

- small scale groups, pulling and bursting players Xv1
- solo, line of site runners to the end of the world
- zerg running a train on your face, rewarded by heal or buff targeting

I'm sure they think they are "skilled" guys. So much fun

Maybe fix some things first
- less farming required (I know I'm dreaming here)
- lower set gap (dreaming again)
- give easier access to potion and poison
- make group just a chat and visual effect. Maybe reduce their max size too
- display more infos on combat mechanics
- listen to many other solutions proposed by the community

I'll be glad to have skill gap after that

doomette · June 2020

Skill gap is just right

🤨 give easier access to potions/poisons? What is difficult about crafting your own?

technohic · June 2020

Skill gap is just right

I went with just right because there is nothing you can do to make it much different. I mean in the first couple of posts, someone says ti rewards killing to quickly and we just had heals and defense sets gutted because these elites are too tanky.

What people are really asking for is it to be simple enough even for them. The gap does not go anywhere. You can give 2 players the same gear, dizzy swing, and vigor and let them fight. The better player will dodge, vigor, block, dizzy at the right time, keep vigor up, and keep a positional advantage. The weaker PVPer might have an easier time keeping up, but the difference is still there. Add a buff and a defensive tool and it gets just a little more complex and the better player will separate more just by knowing when to use it and when to go offensive.

I guess what I'm getting at is; have you ever thought about what it would look like to really reduce the gap? Universal stats, skills, remove block and dodge roll? How far is far enough to go? Because you need to go a long way to make up for not learning the game.

Xebov · June 2020

Skill gap is too big

JonnytheKing wrote: »

there is lots of info out there if u look , and ask

Sure tehre is alot of information out there, but why should players search for it? Sure in a long run tehy need it. But a new player will see PvP and will jump in to try it out. They will not do research for the next 2 hours just to gather all the basics. This is something you have to keep in mind. Every game mode needs a low entry level to catch players and keep them interesting.

Firstmep wrote: »

Anyone can pick up this game and become good at pvp if they put in the time and effort.
Why would a new player be in equal footing with someone who's been pvping for years?

Thats exactly the issue. Sure you can become good with time and efford. But why should a newcomer put in that time or efford? Players try out modes and if they like them tehy will improve. The first impression is important. As of now the game requires players to do alot of research beforehand to gather alot of information to make this first impression decent.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

It doesn't require research, just a half decent build and a lot of practice.

So the new player jumping in needs a decent build, please tell me how he should have the information what he needs for PvP without research? And he needs a lot of practice, so how did he get it without playing PvP?

You are running circles here. You have to see this on a way lower level. You are talking about players that maybe have experience in PvE and are now jumping in for the first couple of matches. PvP is completely different from PvE. The current entry level is something along the lines of: "get a full setup fit for PvP and you may survive, oh you just want to check it with your PvE gear? Well you get farmed then."

relentless_turnip wrote: »

ZOS have already made sets like zaans and various other proc sets literally do all your damage for you. Muscle memory is the biggest hurdle. Like seeing the white circle at your feet and blocking. Moving behind something and reapplying your buffs. What ZOS could do is improve the MMR system so you don't get paired with experienced players even on an alt.

PvP plays completely different from PvE. There is not even a single mention in the game about the PvP Buff that changes your health/stamina/magicka and your healing/damage. If you die in PvP the report gives you no clue how and why you died and how you can improve. The problem with your comment is that its based on the perception of someone who does alot of PvP and knows all this. You have to try and see it out of a perspective of a player that has yet no idea whats going on. For them this is extremely frustrating because they die alot without getting any hints on how to improve so most of them simply leave PvP alone.

TBois · June 2020

Skill gap is just right

ZOS has been trying to reduce the skill gap for years. "Raising the floor" is what they call it I beleive, and it hasn't worked because all the combat adjustments they have made are mostly listed in patch notes. They have done very little to teach new players how to play their game well and how different stats and skills interact. So the veteran players read the notes and with their understanding of game mechanics from research and testing stay well above the floor.

technohic · June 2020

Skill gap is just right

Xebov wrote: »

JonnytheKing wrote: »

there is lots of info out there if u look , and ask

Sure tehre is alot of information out there, but why should players search for it? Sure in a long run tehy need it. But a new player will see PvP and will jump in to try it out. They will not do research for the next 2 hours just to gather all the basics. This is something you have to keep in mind. Every game mode needs a low entry level to catch players and keep them interesting.

Firstmep wrote: »

Anyone can pick up this game and become good at pvp if they put in the time and effort.
Why would a new player be in equal footing with someone who's been pvping for years?

Thats exactly the issue. Sure you can become good with time and efford. But why should a newcomer put in that time or efford? Players try out modes and if they like them tehy will improve. The first impression is important. As of now the game requires players to do alot of research beforehand to gather alot of information to make this first impression decent.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

It doesn't require research, just a half decent build and a lot of practice.

So the new player jumping in needs a decent build, please tell me how he should have the information what he needs for PvP without research? And he needs a lot of practice, so how did he get it without playing PvP?

You are running circles here. You have to see this on a way lower level. You are talking about players that maybe have experience in PvE and are now jumping in for the first couple of matches. PvP is completely different from PvE. The current entry level is something along the lines of: "get a full setup fit for PvP and you may survive, oh you just want to check it with your PvE gear? Well you get farmed then."

relentless_turnip wrote: »

ZOS have already made sets like zaans and various other proc sets literally do all your damage for you. Muscle memory is the biggest hurdle. Like seeing the white circle at your feet and blocking. Moving behind something and reapplying your buffs. What ZOS could do is improve the MMR system so you don't get paired with experienced players even on an alt.

PvP plays completely different from PvE. There is not even a single mention in the game about the PvP Buff that changes your health/stamina/magicka and your healing/damage. If you die in PvP the report gives you no clue how and why you died and how you can improve. The problem with your comment is that its based on the perception of someone who does alot of PvP and knows all this. You have to try and see it out of a perspective of a player that has yet no idea whats going on. For them this is extremely frustrating because they die alot without getting any hints on how to improve so most of them simply leave PvP alone.

Huh. I get told all the ti.e when I die to try to use spear shards to even the odds. That's not helping?

What you are talking about is not skill gap. Its failure of the game to provide useful information and stepping stones on entry.

Duhne · June 2020

Skill gap is too big

doomette wrote: »

🤨 give easier access to potions/poisons? What is difficult about crafting your own?

It's not difficult, it's time consuming. Farm, sell, buy ingredient, craft
Looking at it alone is fine but it's unlikely you just do this in the game, so many just skip this

Sell more kind of potions in cyro would be fine

Xebov · June 2020

Skill gap is too big

technohic wrote: »

Huh. I get told all the ti.e when I die to try to use spear shards to even the odds. That's not helping?

You have to clarify this.

technohic wrote: »

What you are talking about is not skill gap. Its failure of the game to provide useful information and stepping stones on entry.

Not counting in the PvP players saying that this is not an issue...

Kadoin · June 2020

I think PvP this patch requires the least amount of skill it ever has, considering all the gear that can literally carry you in an encounter.

zaria · June 2020

Its an large skill gap, note that its hard to level pvp outside of <50 cyrodil or better sparing duels.
In PvE you can start with normal dungeons and work your way up to vet dlc HM.

Czekoludek · June 2020

Skill gap is too big

But because game is bad at telling new players what to do. Zos should introduce a proper tutorial where players can learn how to dd, tank, heal or pvp with basic concepts for each playstyle.

LuxiasCaelum13 · June 2020

Skill gap is just right

Xebov wrote: »

Thats exactly the issue. Sure you can become good with time and efford. But why should a newcomer put in that time or efford? Players try out modes and if they like them tehy will improve. The first impression is important. As of now the game requires players to do alot of research beforehand to gather alot of information to make this first impression decent.

This is what killed me.

If you study and you get a D- then is understandable, everyone commits fails.

If you refuse to study and you get a D- then is neglicence, and you are the only one responsible for that outcome. The same applies to PvP.

First impressions are important, but if you surrender at everything based only on the first impression then you'll miss lots of things, not only in-game, but irl too. Studying is really hard, so if the first impression isn't a cakewalk then i guess you should stop studying? Working is also really hard, so it's better to not improve and stop working? And the list can go on.

No one has to be the very best at everything at the first try, so no, gathering lots of information before engaging in PvP for the first time is not even required. Researching after failing, however, is. Failing and trying again are the natural steps of learning, no one is born knowing everything. We can argue that the game needs to teach better how PvP works, but this and refusal to learn are two different things. And taking into consideration that the game doesn't provide a reliable way to teach how to PvP, the only way players can learn and improve is to investigate by themselves on external websites/YT videos and by personal experience, but that's not a problem of "skill gap", it's a problem of the game not teaching something.

Ratzkifal · June 2020

Skill gap is just right

Compared to PvE, I think the skill gap in PvP is rather small.
There are people who just refuse to acknowledge that someone else is playing better than them. They are looking for convenient excuses to blame their loss on, which means they will not learn what they did wrong and how to improve.

A good example of that is the forum complaints about 1vX-ing. A lot of the people complaining about that think that having greater numbers should always guarantee your victory, but if you can use the environment to your advantage and make use of chokepoints, then you can devastate an entire group all on your own. This is not because their solo builds are overpowered, but rather because the group made mistakes that the solo player successfully exploited.

Raudgrani · June 2020

Skill gap is just right

Started to PVP because I went in to get just Warhorn, and was teabagged and ridiculed deluxe, when I had no idea what I was doing, and went in with a total PVE healer. Did some research, and my "revenge expedition" turned out a lot better, as I copied some build by Alcast.

Point is. I had literally zero skill, but a (back then) decent build. You are helped a lot by a good build, for a "n00b" you are probably way better off with a bit more tanky build, so that you actually have a chance to learn something from getting killed - because you last at least a few seconds, not being oneshotted by everyone all the time.

What really helped me develop my skills, was when a guildmate who mained a Stamblade helped me make a Blazing Shield PVP templar tank. I was getting the aggro, and he was ganking the people who tried to kill me. As I didn't die to every semi decent player every 15 seconds, I got the opportunity to learn how to survive a lot better.

Then I built a Stamsorc (when they were "OP"), and got pretty good at actually killing people too.

Imho "skill gap" is a pretty diffuse description. People are bad because they copy some 9k weapon damage glass cannon build, OR because they think some weak *** 40k health/28k resistances resistances build will save them the trouble of learning the game - they can't kill, and they can't survive.
No build can save you from the trouble of learning how to survive through situational awareness (target priority, block/dodge and cleanse/HoT), use of skills and environment (kiting, line of sight etc.), and through putting pressure on and actually killing off threats. There is no other way afaik, except "zerging" or running in ball groups just obeying orders. Far too many resort to the latest option these days.

LuxLunae · June 2020

Skill gap is just right

Last time I talked about skill gaps, zos broke the game trying to remove things only the top echelon could pull off. I accepted that I could not do it no matter what. Due to latency.

Their input will simply go to the server faster than my own. There is no protecting from that. Sometimes I died and only saw half of the animations of the skills.

That's when I realized why the meta in pvp is heavy armor, heavy attacking, tanking bulds.

It is to try and make the 5 skill first person shooter (burst damage), into a pvp system with actual thought.

Pretty much PVP is burst damage, build up ultima, burst damage, build up ultima, burst damage.

That's why bloodspawn, fury and 7th was such a meta...jump up and down getting ultimate, burst, and repeat.

If I wanted that, I'd go to a FPS game. (which I have by the way)

The other alternative is to get into a group and lag zerg the other group by using the broken exploits in the game.

Nomad1098 · June 2020

Skill gab is too small

Sergykid wrote: »

pvp still requires a heavy amount of dedication and research. Not much information is given during and after the combat. You must have addons or check external sources like eso-sets. High unbalance aside, you don't even have a place where you can learn what you are doing. Either chaotic open world in which you become a zerger or free prey, either 4v4v4 where you might learn something but only visually.

You don't have a place to learn pve content either. You just do it and get better. That's progression. Progression is a staple of MMO's.

HowlKimchi · June 2020

Skill gap is just right

New uneducated players shouldnt be able to match skilled players who have dedicated time and resources at getting good in the game.

Im glad this post isn’t the typical whiny pve player complaining about not being able to complete quests in cyrodiil whilst wearing full divines though.

The Elder Scrolls Online

Skill Gap in PvP

Skill Gap in PvP 178 votes