Skill Gap in PvP

YandereGirlfriend

Skill gap is just right

I love the skill gap in PvP as most of the time (performance willing...) the outcome of a fight is purely meritocratic, win or lose. And I say this as someone that is definitely NOT a top-tier player.

People LOVE to blame their loses on OP gear or classes but most of the time it's simply because the person that you fought is better than you are, at least under the circumstances that you met them.

Far more than in PvE, where the best builds are usually blindingly obvious, PvP does reward the mental detective work of theory-crafting, farming, testing, and refining a build. It rewards knowing your own playstyle and building to enhance it. And it rewards having a far more complete knowledge of what stats and mechanics actually do in the game.

It also rewards having knowledge of other classes and playstyles, which is one of the chief impediments to newer players. Anecdotally, my personal skill in PvP greatly increased after I spun up alts for every class and began to play on them for a few days each month.

Yes, classes and sets are not fully balanced but a great player on a weak build will still smash a bad player on the flavor-of-the-month "OP" build every day of the week. You can spoon-feed someone a build but you can't actually spoon-feed them skill and that's a genuine credit to the game.

HowlKimchi

Skill gap is just right

^agreed

Player skill is what matters at the end of the day. If they narrow down the gap, then it’s the nail in the coffin for magblades and other underpowered specs that only sees success when used by a good player.

doomette

Skill gap is just right

Duhne wrote: »

doomette wrote: »

🤨 give easier access to potions/poisons? What is difficult about crafting your own?

It's not difficult, it's time consuming. Farm, sell, buy ingredient, craft
Looking at it alone is fine but it's unlikely you just do this in the game, so many just skip this

Sell more kind of potions in cyro would be fine

Right, but getting better takes time, and really alchemy is probably the least time consuming part of getting better at PVP (and unnecessary if you have the gold to buy pots).

I like that PVP really requires you to figure out what works for you personally instead of just blindly following cookie cutter builds. And it takes time to figure that out. Making PVP more friendly to instant gratification seekers would be a mistake, I think. And I don’t say that with a “screw you, I got mine” mindset as I’m nowhere near top tier but I’m slowly learning. There’s nothing wrong with getting smooshed a whole lot while you’re learning.

VoxAdActa

I may just be confused, but it sounds like what some people are advocating for is a PvP mode where you enter Cyrodiil and are immediately popped up to max CP, and all your skills, CP, and equipment is transformed into the "meta" for your class.

But that can't be right. That'd be silly.

So since I'm definitely confused, because nobody would ever advocate for that kind of system, what are the "skill gap too big" people asking for?

itscompton

Most fights in Cyrodiil are currently decided not by player skill or gear setup but are determined based on who has less lag/microfreezes on their end.

fxeconomisteb17_ESO

Skill gap is too big

PVP should not just reward aggresivity. Because that's how it seems to me. It shouldn't be about how fast you can press the buttons. It should be about the tactical use of skills and equipment. A damager shouldn't be able to alone kill a tank that's tanking 90% of the damage, just because the tank is used to tank and the damager is just using his aggression to pummel the tank even if he wouldn't have the resistance to withstand. It's only about who starts first to CC and damage.

VoxAdActa

fxeconomisteb17_ESO wrote: »

PVP should not just reward aggresivity. Because that's how it seems to me. It shouldn't be about how fast you can press the buttons. It should be about the tactical use of skills and equipment.

Ok, I'm listening. Go on.

A damager shouldn't be able to alone kill a tank that's tanking 90% of the damage, just because the tank is used to tank and the damager is just using his aggression to pummel the tank even if he wouldn't have the resistance to withstand. It's only about who starts first to CC and damage.

....isn't getting the drop on a tank and pummeling them with CC and damage a tactical use of one's skills and equipment? I'm lost again.

What, specifically, are you wanting to see changed?

fxeconomisteb17_ESO

Skill gap is too big

VoxAdActa wrote: »

fxeconomisteb17_ESO wrote: »

PVP should not just reward aggresivity. Because that's how it seems to me. It shouldn't be about how fast you can press the buttons. It should be about the tactical use of skills and equipment.

Ok, I'm listening. Go on.

A damager shouldn't be able to alone kill a tank that's tanking 90% of the damage, just because the tank is used to tank and the damager is just using his aggression to pummel the tank even if he wouldn't have the resistance to withstand. It's only about who starts first to CC and damage.

....isn't getting the drop on a tank and pummeling them with CC and damage a tactical use of one's skills and equipment? I'm lost again.

What, specifically, are you wanting to see changed?

There's nothing tactical in that. Tactical is slow use. Not every half second. I think I would like to see an experiment, where skills no longer CC. That would level the playing field and give a reason to tanks to become aggressive as well - thus remove this fake tanking which is not enough to resist to the unbelievable damage dished out by DDs.

VoxAdActa

fxeconomisteb17_ESO wrote: »

There's nothing tactical in that. Tactical is slow use. Not every half second. I think I would like to see an experiment, where skills no longer CC. That would level the playing field and give a reason to tanks to become aggressive as well.

Maybe you're looking for a different word than "tactical".

Definition of tactical

1: of or relating to combat tactics: such as
(1) : of or occurring at the battlefront a tactical defense a tactical first strike
(2) : using or being weapons or forces employed at the battlefront tactical missiles

2a : of or relating to tactics: such as
(1) : of or relating to small-scale actions serving a larger purpose
(2) : made or carried out with only a limited or immediate end in view
b : adroit in planning or maneuvering to accomplish a purpose

The situation described above perfectly matches definition 1, 2a, and 2b.

At no point does "slow" equal "tactical".

Sadly, I'm at a loss for the word you actually intend to use here, because I don't know of a word that means "slow steady combat".

fxeconomisteb17_ESO

Skill gap is too big

VoxAdActa wrote: »

fxeconomisteb17_ESO wrote: »

There's nothing tactical in that. Tactical is slow use. Not every half second. I think I would like to see an experiment, where skills no longer CC. That would level the playing field and give a reason to tanks to become aggressive as well.

Maybe you're looking for a different word than "tactical".

Definition of tactical

1: of or relating to combat tactics: such as
(1) : of or occurring at the battlefront a tactical defense a tactical first strike
(2) : using or being weapons or forces employed at the battlefront tactical missiles

2a : of or relating to tactics: such as
(1) : of or relating to small-scale actions serving a larger purpose
(2) : made or carried out with only a limited or immediate end in view
b : adroit in planning or maneuvering to accomplish a purpose

The situation described above perfectly matches definition 1, 2a, and 2b.

At no point does "slow" equal "tactical".

Sadly, I'm at a loss for the word you actually intend to use here, because I don't know of a word that means "slow steady combat".

Perhaps it's a different word, why not ? As I said, it should focus on skills, not on aggresivity. Not on who pummels first. More of a chess, more of a balance. Not just bang-bang-bang you're dead. It should take a team of damagers to down a tank, not just one. Because if a damager with 15k healtk dishes out 100K a second (before Battle Spirit), that's still about 3-4K a second final damage. It only takes a few seconds and that's it. It's abnormal.

VoxAdActa

fxeconomisteb17_ESO wrote: »

Perhaps it's a different word, why not ? As I said, it should focus on skills, not on aggresivity. Not on who pummels first. More of a chess, more of a balance. Not just bang-bang-bang you're dead. It should take a team of damagers to down a tank, not just one. Because if a damager with 15k healtk dishes out 100K a second (before Battle Spirit), that's still about 3-4K a second final damage. It only takes a few seconds and that's it. It's abnormal.

So, once again, what's your solution?

A three-second GCD in PvP instead of the one-second one we have now? Change all DD skills to DoT in PvP? Buff everyone's resistances? More HP?

The problem you're going to have to overcome here is the root reason as to why burst damage is so prevalent in PvP: burst healing is prevalent in PvP. A target that doesn't die immediately is back to full health immediately.

Hexquisite

Skill gap is too big

As someone whom tries to get new players in our groups, the skill gap is huge. I'm not saying that is a good or bad thing, however it does frustrate leaders. I agree with the above poster that there is really no place that once can go and learn--I think this is why we see so many huge zergs now.

I think that it also frustrates new players to pvp, and a part of why PVP population has died so much, besides performance.

lucky_Sage

Skill gab is too small

Skill gap is getting smaller. Counters are going away solo and small group play is getting harder. This is pvp skill cap should be set by the best players I would rather get destroyed by the best players than destroy bad ones. Why I like pvp better than PVE is because I will always have room for improvement PVE is just set by what the devs can make. Zos has pre 50 BG’s and cyro I do they it should be 160cp and under. Pvp is learned from dying over and over

Xargas13

Skill gab is too small

Eh, Greymoor destroyed my PvP. Being magicka based is not worth it now, now it's all stamina and "tank" builds that took less then a month to create. It was mostly fine, with a few *** ups there and there. People had fun, now when I am in BG people often say how boring it is. I don't expect them to change it, but they can't expect me to play this garbage PvP either. Have a lot of quests to complete, stuff to steal, people to kill, this will get me through till things get better. As for skill, I wish it wasn't just about gear, slotted abilities and how you use them, that's what should matter, gear should just compliment those abilities. Now it's all gone. Ah well, at least feeding as a vampire is fun now:)

NordJitsu

Sergykid wrote: »

pvp still requires a heavy amount of dedication and research. Not much information is given during and after the combat. You must have addons or check external sources like eso-sets. High unbalance aside, you don't even have a place where you can learn what you are doing. Either chaotic open world in which you become a zerger or free prey, either 4v4v4 where you might learn something but only visually.

Dueling. You can duel anyone at any time, strangers or friends, and practice your skills in a no risk environment.

But no one does it. Everyone is scared of losing...nothing, because there’s no penalty.

And there’s plenty of information available without add one. It’s called your character sheet.

Opalblade

Skill gap is just right

I'm pretty "meh" at pvp in ESO right now, but I like that there's a skill gap. If I have no reason to git gud, I get bored.

Artorias24

Skill gap is just right

VoxAdActa wrote: »

fxeconomisteb17_ESO wrote: »

Perhaps it's a different word, why not ? As I said, it should focus on skills, not on aggresivity. Not on who pummels first. More of a chess, more of a balance. Not just bang-bang-bang you're dead. It should take a team of damagers to down a tank, not just one. Because if a damager with 15k healtk dishes out 100K a second (before Battle Spirit), that's still about 3-4K a second final damage. It only takes a few seconds and that's it. It's abnormal.

So, once again, what's your solution?

A three-second GCD in PvP instead of the one-second one we have now? Change all DD skills to DoT in PvP? Buff everyone's resistances? More HP?

The problem you're going to have to overcome here is the root reason as to why burst damage is so prevalent in PvP: burst healing is prevalent in PvP. A target that doesn't die immediately is back to full health immediately.

Maybe He is confusing ESO (action combat system) with a turn based game like chess.

In a Fight the one who can put out the most and hardest punches in a short period of time will have the upper Hand against someone who goes for one weak punch every minute.

I dont know how he wishes eso combat would be but in my opinion ESO has the most realistic combat system. As far as a fantasy mmo game can get.

Aedrion

Skill gap is just right

People here are confusing skill gap with learning curve.

Skill Gap: The disparity between some of the best players and some of the worst players. Determined by reaction speed, decision making, build composition, flexible thinking and most of all, experience.

Learning Curve: The availability of learning opportunities, quality of tutorials, presence of in-game mentors and information to help a player improve.

The skill gap is not the problem. ZoS has been tackling this by adding sets and skill that require minimum thought or effort for a pay off. Sadly, ZoS is bad at their jobs so it's no surprise that this has done nothing but mess things up.

But the learning curve is a a problem. Matchmaking is bad and BG's are daunting and Cyro pits everybody in huge blobs versus eachother. The amount of fights you have as a new player that actually teach you something before you are beaten or you win are few. Death is often quick and animation cancelling and bad information provided barely helps you understand what killed you.

The death recap itself offers absolutely embarrassingly bad advice, recommending terrible skills or tactics to help you. As a veteran player, I am often baffled by how bad the tips are when I look at what situation I died in. Not to mention your death recap doesn't even show you a complete overview of what killed you. No wonder some mods purposefully add jokes tips to this list like 'Try healing.'

Tutorials show you only the basics you need to kill critters but nothing more and overland doesn't challenge people in the slightest. I've heard testimonies of kids under 5 being able to run around and kill things. Sure, great for ZoS money and accessibility but this applies to 80% of PvE content, so when people come into PvP, PvE has taught them nothing.

Finally, the game itself provides not even a minimum of UI information you need to play decently. The UI is clean but it's bad, you can't see buff durations, set cooldowns, enemy buffs or debuffs and many other basic things you need to understand what's going on. People cry about mods but this game demands mods because the basic UI offers you nothing. And no, saying it's an unfair advantage doesn't fly just because you don't wanna instal a UI mod.

To summarise. ESO does nothing to help players improve in PvP. It throws them out there like lambs to the wolves so obviously they either die horribly and feel mistreated or they flock together in huge zergs to feel safe. Adding stupid skills and sets won't change that.

relentless_turnip

Skill gap is just right

fxeconomisteb17_ESO wrote: »

PVP should not just reward aggresivity. Because that's how it seems to me. It shouldn't be about how fast you can press the buttons. It should be about the tactical use of skills and equipment. A damager shouldn't be able to alone kill a tank that's tanking 90% of the damage, just because the tank is used to tank and the damager is just using his aggression to pummel the tank even if he wouldn't have the resistance to withstand. It's only about who starts first to CC and damage.

I would like to hear of a game that doesn't reward you for efficient button presses. I.e. pressing the right button at the right time. What you are seeing is combos being executed. The moment you choose to use your cc is a massive part of your success. A true tank build cannot be killed by anyone. They are equally as successful as their high damage counter part, if the goal is to survive rather than kill.

ItsJustHashtag

Skill gap is just right

itscompton wrote: »

Most fights in Cyrodiil are currently decided not by player skill or gear setup but are determined based on who has less lag/microfreezes on their end.

The best 1vX’er in the game is the servers

NyassaV

Skill gab is too small

Skill gap or game balance? I blame game balance mostly.

Cerotonin

Skill gab is too small

Performance shrinks the skill gap even further. I don’t think it takes all that much to improve either. Sets and classes do carry some players too.

Bradyfjord

How can anyone tell how well they're doing when lag spikes and desync kill our ability to play?

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

Skill gap is just right

skill gap is not the issue, its the dps increase and more than that zos not understanding how pvp is played, its very rare you see 1v1 or 1v3 its more like 1v20-50+ zos needs to understand this and have a variant dps incoming metre that recognises how many are attacking 1 person and lower the output damage from say 24 on 1

Aedrion

Skill gap is just right

Cerotonin wrote: »

Performance shrinks the skill gap even further. I don’t think it takes all that much to improve either. Sets and classes do carry some players too.

This is so true. During Midyear Mayhem, my guild migrates to Sheogorath where performance has - strangely - been quite excellent. While it's true that during this event many PvE-players join Cyro, we can hold our own against truly massive numbers because Break Free works, Ult-bombs work, mobility works and skills fire when they're supposed to.

In big lag, we can't hold on very long against superior numbers because it's their light attacks versus ours, in essence.