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Please STOP editing posts without explanations and remove the "staff post" feature on those posts
MissyJ
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It is utterly confusing to read a thread, where posts are actively being edited by Zenimax staff with no explanation as to or indication of why anything or even what was edited. Also this editing results in a "staff post" marker in the top of the post, making ppl think that it's a staff member posting, WHICH IT IS NOT! This is really bad practice.
An example of this can be seen in this thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/83095/fundamental-issues-with-bugs-customer-service-and-testing/p1 where atleast 6 posts so far have been edited and now have the "staff post" marker.
An example of this can be seen in this thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/83095/fundamental-issues-with-bugs-customer-service-and-testing/p1 where atleast 6 posts so far have been edited and now have the "staff post" marker.
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Saerydoth✭✭✭✭I think the "staff post" marker is an oversight in the system. They JUST implemented that, and it doesn't yet differentiate between a post by a staff member, and a user post edited by a staff member. I agree that this is something that needs to be fixed, but like I said this is a new addition to the forum and probably is still having the kinks worked out of it.
That said, they are only editing posts that violate the forum code of conduct. I've read that thread, and I saw some of the posts before they were edited, and I can definitely say they were in the right to edit them. They don't owe you an explanation as to why they are edited.0 -
daneyulebub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's one thing to close a thread. It's one thing to edit a post and tell why and what changed.
But just editing without explanation is something completely different. I don't care if they had good reason, changing someone's words is getting into misrepresentation. It's misleading, open to accusations of deceptive intent, and just isn't an ethical practice.This message confirms that you have successfully cancelled your subscription to The Elder Scrolls Online. You will no longer be charged for a subscription on a recurring basis, and your access to the game will expire at the end of your current subscription cycle.
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MissyJ✭✭I don't need an explanation as to, why it was edited. My point was just, that it's easily missed that the person doing the editing is not the same person who originally wrote the post. In the thread that I linked a player has just been banned (apparently for bad behavior in that thread) but up until then several players were under the impression that he was a staff member, because of the "staff post" mark. That is obviously not their intention and hence several ppl including myself have tried to make them aware of this issue.0
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Saerydoth✭✭✭✭They are removing things that violate the forum code of conduct. They do not owe an explanation for every post they edit. If they edit it, they removed things that violated the code of conduct. Typing this in every time they edit a post is pointless and counterprodutive, and would take away from time spent helping people.
If people wouldn't troll the forums so much, and wouldn't violate the code of conduct, they wouldn't have to do that. But you do not have any rights here. Posting on the forums is a privilege, and they definitely have the right to edit posts.0 -
Hello all, when new items or features are brought into a forum or game, they still have to resolve by priority, this is only "bothersome" not critical, so im sure when they have time for low priority issues, it will get resolved.
That is all......beeep1 -
daneyulebub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I do need an explanation. If I can't trust the words of the poster to be the actual words of the poster, I can't trust this forum. Delete the post if its against policy, or excise portions that are against policy with a message that parts were deleted. You don't, however, just make unspecified changes in people's posts without attributions and explanation. Sheesh. That should be a basic assumption in a forum. No moderator should have the power to put words in other people's mouths, or alter them without clearly giving notice that the alterations were done.This message confirms that you have successfully cancelled your subscription to The Elder Scrolls Online. You will no longer be charged for a subscription on a recurring basis, and your access to the game will expire at the end of your current subscription cycle.
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MissyJ✭✭daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »It's one thing to close a thread. It's one thing to edit a post and tell why and what changed.
But just editing without explanation is something completely different. I don't care if they had good reason, changing someone's words is getting into misrepresentation. It's misleading, open to accusations of deceptive intent, and just isn't an ethical practice.
I agree. When I am busy reading a thread, I don't take the time to check every single post to see if the name of the poster is identical to the name of the editor. Up until now I had assumed it would be identical, since most players edit some of their posts at some point or another. It was only because of the language of one poster in the thread that I linked above, that I started wondering if those "staff posts" were indeed written by staff.3 -
Lol zos enjoys policing their forums id they disagree with what you write you can be sure it will be editedBrave New World.1
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daneyulebub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭They are removing things that violate the forum code of conduct. They do not owe an explanation for every post they edit. If they edit it, they removed things that violated the code of conduct. Typing this in every time they edit a post is pointless and counterprodutive, and would take away from time spent helping people.
No. Editing people's words without attribution is completely, utterly indefensible. I'm fine if they mark or at least put notice in that portions were deleted, or if they delete the whole post. But to quietly delete portions can easily alter the tone, intent and argument. It's often quite easy to delete a sentence or two and turn a pro-"something" post into seemingly an anti-"something" post, without the actual poster having any say at all in how their original intent is misrepresented. That's absolutely unethical. This should not be happening--just because they moderate this forum, does not give them the power to misrepresent what the posters are saying.Edited by daneyulebub17_ESO on April 20, 2014 12:46AMThis message confirms that you have successfully cancelled your subscription to The Elder Scrolls Online. You will no longer be charged for a subscription on a recurring basis, and your access to the game will expire at the end of your current subscription cycle.
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Saerydoth✭✭✭✭scripteaze wrote: »Hello all, when new items or features are brought into a forum or game, they still have to resolve by priority, this is only "bothersome" not critical, so im sure when they have time for low priority issues, it will get resolved.
That is all......beeep
Well, keep in mind, that the people working on the bugs in the forum are not the same people working on the game itself. Separate teams and all. So just because this is "low priority" compared to game bugs, doesn't mean that it will take longer to fix. Webserver admins tend to not work on game bugs.0 -
MissyJ✭✭scripteaze wrote: »Hello all, when new items or features are brought into a forum or game, they still have to resolve by priority, this is only "bothersome" not critical, so im sure when they have time for low priority issues, it will get resolved.
That is all......beeep
First of all... I don't see the point with this comment. Yes of cause they will get to it. So because this is not a big deal in your eyes, I should just not have created the thread in the first place? I made the post to make them aware of a problem. That has nothing to with priority.
Secondly, this is a big priority in my opinion. Yes it's not on the scale of servers being down or ppl being inadvertently mass banned, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't deserve to be addressed. People thinking that random players are representatives of Zenimax can cause a lot of havoc in the forums. Especially since the players that are being mistaken for staff members are generally trolls or just plainly ill-mannered. If Zenima was my company, I wouldn't appreciate having random ppl being perceived as representatives of my company. So I would find it rather surprising if this should sort under a "minor inconvenience" and something "that we get to next week".1 -
ViviDaliaSoul ShrivenClotholachesisatropos666b14_ESO wrote: »Lol zos enjoys policing their forums id they disagree with what you write you can be sure it will be edited
The poster that was censored was behaving inappropriately and appears to have been banned for doing so.
It does appear that they need to change the way they censor so there is no confusion.
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MissyJ✭✭daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »They are removing things that violate the forum code of conduct. They do not owe an explanation for every post they edit. If they edit it, they removed things that violated the code of conduct. Typing this in every time they edit a post is pointless and counterprodutive, and would take away from time spent helping people.
No. Editing people's words without attribution is completely, utterly indefensible. I'm fine if they mark or at least put notice in that portions were deleted, or if they delete the whole post. But to quietly delete portions can easily alter the tone, intent and argument. It's often quite easy to delete a sentence or two and turn a pro-"something" post into seemingly an anti-"something" post, without the actual poster having any say at all in how their original intent is misrepresented. That's absolutely unethical. This should not be happening--just because they moderate this forum, does not give them the power to misrepresent what the posters are saying.
Ty. Couldn't have explained my point of view better myself - especially not in a to me foreign language.
I am missing blacked out portions in those posts. This is something that I have gotten use to seeing and expecting in any other forum, that I have been a member of, and which tells me that something has been changed at this very point in the posters argumentation.
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Clotholachesisatropos666b14_ESO wrote: »Lol zos enjoys policing their forums id they disagree with what you write you can be sure it will be edited
The poster that was censored was behaving inappropriately and appears to have been banned for doing so.
It does appear that they need to change the way they censor so there is no confusion.
Zos enjoys editing and removing posts they dont agree with.
Zos gms are way to over zealous with their ban hammers.
Zos server mods are way to over zealous with their edit/remove post toy.
Im sorry what was your point? You seemed to have missed mine as well hope that clears it up for you.Edited by randomaffliction66 on April 20, 2014 12:58AMBrave New World.0 -
daneyulebub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭There's two issues here--1. The fact that when Zenimax edits a post, it looks like the poster is a staff member. And, 2. The fact that Zenimax edits posts without saying what they've edited or deleted.
Of these, number one seems to me a bug with their system. It will be fixed eventually, and is not likely an intentional function. It's annoying, but ultimately just a bug.
Number two, though, is much more concerning. Zenimax needs to understand that they should not be altering, or selectively removing, people's words without very clear explanation that they did so. Otherwise they are misleading the readers and misrepresenting the posters. No matter how justified or minor the change may seem, you don't alter people's words on the sly. This is a very slippery slope in regards to ethics and not something any reputable forum should ever do.Edited by daneyulebub17_ESO on April 20, 2014 12:59AMThis message confirms that you have successfully cancelled your subscription to The Elder Scrolls Online. You will no longer be charged for a subscription on a recurring basis, and your access to the game will expire at the end of your current subscription cycle.
We're sad to see you go now, but we'll be happy to welcome you back at any time! Whenever you're ready to come back, your characters will be waiting for you, just like you left them. You can return anytime by resubscribing on the Manage Subscription page on your Elder Scrolls Online account.
Please print this email and keep it for your records.4 -
daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »There's two issues here--1. The fact that when Zenimax edits a post, it looks like the poster is a staff member. And, 2. The fact that Zenimax edits posts without saying what they've edited or deleted.
Of these, number one seems to me a bug with their system. It will be fixed eventually, and is not likely an intentional function. It's annoying, but ultimately just a bug.
Number two, though, is much more concerning. Zenimax needs to understand that they should not be altering, or selectively removing, people's words without very clear explanation that they did so. Otherwise they are misleading the readers and misrepresenting the posters. No matter how justified or minor the change may seem, you don't alter people's words on the sly. This is a very slippery slope in regards to ethics and not something any reputable forum should ever do.
Its pretty clear who the poster is if you have a hard time telling the difference thats on you, but dont worry they will change it for the " bladez" in this game.. hope some one gets that reference from the first episode of "the guild"Edited by randomaffliction66 on April 20, 2014 1:04AMBrave New World.0 -
FezzikVizzini✭✭✭A few days ago I made a thread praising forum moderators
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/78687/fair-play-to-the-forum-moderators#latest
Wish I hadn't done that as I now find that posts are being edited and parts removed etc.
This is a very bad practice in my opinion. Depending upon what the offense commited in the post was the either close the thread or remove the complete post. Don't edit parts out.
I mean, what happens if I post something like "All xxxx are xxxx. Kill them. Why can't they be nice like cats ?". I would expect that to be removed and a ban issued. Not edited to "All cats are nice".Yeah, I got a PC. I just don't feel the need to post it's specifications for an ego boost.1 -
FezzikVizzini✭✭✭And, I might as well be the 1st one:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"Yeah, I got a PC. I just don't feel the need to post it's specifications for an ego boost.2 -
Elvikun✭✭✭Well, they send note to the person who is being edited, at least in my (one only tho) experience. And it seems to be mostly to remove jokes or something considered provocative/offensive by someone.
Technically it's ok, but then again, it's easy to get a little angry when you get a joke edited out with explanation it could be interpreted as mocking by someone (which it kinda was, as it goes with humour), yet the post under it from another user is obvious personal attack with beeped-out profianity all over and is left untouched.
I guess my point is either moderate everything in a fair way, or don't moderate at all, except for some extreme cases like racism & friends.
I understand how hard that is, but *shrug*.Failing is a lifestyle too.1 -
wrlifeboil✭✭✭✭✭If they are looking for a reason to stop editing forum posts other than ethical considerations, then a good reason is that editing content is time consuming and time is money. Delete or not to delete, that should be the question.2
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daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »No. Editing people's words without attribution is completely, utterly indefensible. I'm fine if they mark or at least put notice in that portions were deleted, or if they delete the whole post. But to quietly delete portions can easily alter the tone, intent and argument.
Completely 100% agree.
eg:
I'm fine if they mark or at least put notice in that portions were deleted, or if they delete the whole post. But to quietly delete portions can easily alter the tone, intent and argument.[/quote]
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MissyJ✭✭wrlifeboil wrote: »If they are looking for a reason to stop editing forum posts other than ethical considerations, then a good reason is that editing content is time consuming and time is money. Delete or not to delete, that should be the question.
I could go with that option too. As long as they leave a little "post by playername deleted" notice. Otherwise it gets even more confusing, when other players are referring to a post that would be seemingly non-existing. Atleast this is how I have seen the deletion of posts handled in other forums and it worked just fine.1 -
ViviDaliaSoul ShrivenClotholachesisatropos666b14_ESO wrote: »Clotholachesisatropos666b14_ESO wrote: »Lol zos enjoys policing their forums id they disagree with what you write you can be sure it will be edited
The poster that was censored was behaving inappropriately and appears to have been banned for doing so.
It does appear that they need to change the way they censor so there is no confusion.
Zos enjoys editing and removing posts they dont agree with.
Zos gms are way to over zealous with their ban hammers.
Zos server mods are way to over zealous with their edit/remove post toy.
Im sorry what was your point? You seemed to have missed mine as well hope that clears it up for you.
My point was, the poster was banned for behaving inappropriately. That is vastly different from disagreeing with the poster's comments. I highly doubt the company "enjoys editing and removing posts they" do not agree with unless they have a defective employee(s) they need to deal with.
I disagree that "Zos gms are way to over zealous with their ban hammers" in this particular individual's case having followed the thread from the beginning. The poster was way out of line.
I agree they are over zealous to edit/remove posts without explanation and should revise their policy. The policy was clearly stated when we signed up for the forum that they may do so but to do so without explanation really does remove the context of the conversation and causes confusion.
Edited by ViviDalia on April 20, 2014 1:30AM1 -
Clotholachesisatropos666b14_ESO wrote: »Clotholachesisatropos666b14_ESO wrote: »Lol zos enjoys policing their forums id they disagree with what you write you can be sure it will be edited
The poster that was censored was behaving inappropriately and appears to have been banned for doing so.
It does appear that they need to change the way they censor so there is no confusion.
Zos enjoys editing and removing posts they dont agree with.
Zos gms are way to over zealous with their ban hammers.
Zos server mods are way to over zealous with their edit/remove post toy.
Im sorry what was your point? You seemed to have missed mine as well hope that clears it up for you.
My point was, the poster was banned for behaving inappropriately. That is vastly different from disagreeing with the poster's comments. I highly doubt the company "enjoys editing and removing posts they" do not agree with unless they have a defective employee(s) they need to deal with.
I disagree that "Zos gms are way to over zealous with their ban hammers" in this particular individual's case having followed the thread from the beginning. The poster was way out of line.
I agree they are over zealous to edit/remove posts without explanation and should revise their policy. The policy was clearly stated when we signed up for the forum that they may do so but to do so without explanation really does remove the context of the conversation and causes confusion.
Sorry friend but you dont seem to get my point, I fully understood your point the first time lol I guess we just have to agree to disagree
Brave New World.0 -
ViviDaliaSoul ShrivenClotholachesisatropos666b14_ESO wrote: »Sorry friend but you dont seem to get my point, I fully understood your point the first time lol I guess we just have to agree to disagree
After further research, I now understand your lack of not understanding my point.
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Tabbycat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭They actually have the right to do this according to the Terms of Use.
http://www.zenimax.com/legal_terms_usUser-Generated Content
Content includes user-generated Content ("UGC"). UGC includes, but is not limited to, Account personas, user names, forum posts, chat posts, customer service chats, communications, images, sounds, or other suggestions, ideas, notes, feedback, concepts or other information concerning the Services whether at ZeniMax’s specific request or despite ZeniMax’s request that You not do so (such as Unsolicited Materials as described in Section 16). UGC also includes material and information that is contributed by You or by any other person using the Services. ZeniMax does not pre-screen UGC and does not endorse or approve any UGC that You and other users may contribute to the Services. You are solely responsible for Your UGC and may be held liable for UGC that You post.
You may not submit any UGC that is copyrighted, protected by trade secret or otherwise subject to third party intellectual property rights, including, but not limited to, privacy and publicity rights, unless You own those rights free and clear or have written permission from their rightful owner to post and to grant all of the described license rights to ZeniMax. Unless otherwise prohibited by applicable law or regulation, by submitting UGC or creating UGC on any portion of the Services, You acknowledge and agree that all UGC is the sole property of ZeniMax and You hereby assign and agree to assign to ZeniMax all such UGC submitted by You. To the extent that ZeniMax cannot claim exclusive ownership rights in such UGC by operation of law or pursuant to the assignment noted above, and to the fullest extent permitted by law You hereby expressly grant (or You warrant that the owner of such UGC has expressly granted) to ZeniMax and its licensors, licensees and designees a perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, paid-up, non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferrable, sublicenseable right and license to exercise all rights of any kind or nature associated with such UGC in all formats and medium, whether existing now or in the future, and You agree not to assert or enforce any moral or similar rights You may have which may now or may hereafter be recognized, and all ancillary and subsidiary rights, in any languages and media now known or not currently known. You further grant each user of the Services a non-exclusive license to access UGC and to use, reproduce, distribute, display and perform such UGC as permitted through the Services, including, but not limited to, Game functionality.
ZeniMax reserves the right (but has no obligation except as required by law) to REVIEW, remove, block, edit, move or disable UGC for any reason, with or without notice, and HAS no liability of any kind WITH RESPECT TO UGC, including WITHOUT LIMITATION when ZeniMax determines that UGC violates THE TERMS OF SERVICE. The decision to remove UGC or other Content at any time is in ZeniMax's sole and final discretion. To the maximum extent permitted by law, ZeniMax does not assume any responsibility or liability for UGC or for ITS removal or FOR any failure to or delay in removing, UGC or other Content.Founder and Co-GM of The Psijic Order Guild (NA)
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Mauzi✭✭They actually have the right to do this according to the Terms of Use.
http://www.zenimax.com/legal_terms_usUser-Generated Content
Content includes user-generated Content ("UGC"). UGC includes, but is not limited to, Account personas, user names, forum posts, chat posts, customer service chats, communications, images, sounds, or other suggestions, ideas, notes, feedback, concepts or other information concerning the Services whether at ZeniMax’s specific request or despite ZeniMax’s request that You not do so (such as Unsolicited Materials as described in Section 16). UGC also includes material and information that is contributed by You or by any other person using the Services. ZeniMax does not pre-screen UGC and does not endorse or approve any UGC that You and other users may contribute to the Services. You are solely responsible for Your UGC and may be held liable for UGC that You post.
You may not submit any UGC that is copyrighted, protected by trade secret or otherwise subject to third party intellectual property rights, including, but not limited to, privacy and publicity rights, unless You own those rights free and clear or have written permission from their rightful owner to post and to grant all of the described license rights to ZeniMax. Unless otherwise prohibited by applicable law or regulation, by submitting UGC or creating UGC on any portion of the Services, You acknowledge and agree that all UGC is the sole property of ZeniMax and You hereby assign and agree to assign to ZeniMax all such UGC submitted by You. To the extent that ZeniMax cannot claim exclusive ownership rights in such UGC by operation of law or pursuant to the assignment noted above, and to the fullest extent permitted by law You hereby expressly grant (or You warrant that the owner of such UGC has expressly granted) to ZeniMax and its licensors, licensees and designees a perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, paid-up, non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferrable, sublicenseable right and license to exercise all rights of any kind or nature associated with such UGC in all formats and medium, whether existing now or in the future, and You agree not to assert or enforce any moral or similar rights You may have which may now or may hereafter be recognized, and all ancillary and subsidiary rights, in any languages and media now known or not currently known. You further grant each user of the Services a non-exclusive license to access UGC and to use, reproduce, distribute, display and perform such UGC as permitted through the Services, including, but not limited to, Game functionality.
ZeniMax reserves the right (but has no obligation except as required by law) to REVIEW, remove, block, edit, move or disable UGC for any reason, with or without notice, and HAS no liability of any kind WITH RESPECT TO UGC, including WITHOUT LIMITATION when ZeniMax determines that UGC violates THE TERMS OF SERVICE. The decision to remove UGC or other Content at any time is in ZeniMax's sole and final discretion. To the maximum extent permitted by law, ZeniMax does not assume any responsibility or liability for UGC or for ITS removal or FOR any failure to or delay in removing, UGC or other Content.
Having the right is one thing, doing it right is another.
This is especially valid if there's a chance that the edit leads to putting words and meanings into someone's post that never were originally written.Edited by Mauzi on April 20, 2014 2:07AM1 -
Jadeviper1974✭✭✭I think the "staff post" marker is an oversight in the system. They JUST implemented that, and it doesn't yet differentiate between a post by a staff member, and a user post edited by a staff member. I agree that this is something that needs to be fixed, but like I said this is a new addition to the forum and probably is still having the kinks worked out of it.
That said, they are only editing posts that violate the forum code of conduct. I've read that thread, and I saw some of the posts before they were edited, and I can definitely say they were in the right to edit them. They don't owe you an explanation as to why they are edited.
Actually yes they do owe you an explanation. If a post violated the forum rules then they should just remove the entire post, not edit someone else's words.What is written above are my honest opinions. If you agree then; "Great!" If you disagree; "Great!" I really couldn't care less either way.0 -
Jadeviper1974✭✭✭daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »There's two issues here--1. The fact that when Zenimax edits a post, it looks like the poster is a staff member. And, 2. The fact that Zenimax edits posts without saying what they've edited or deleted.
Of these, number one seems to me a bug with their system. It will be fixed eventually, and is not likely an intentional function. It's annoying, but ultimately just a bug.
Number two, though, is much more concerning. Zenimax needs to understand that they should not be altering, or selectively removing, people's words without very clear explanation that they did so. Otherwise they are misleading the readers and misrepresenting the posters. No matter how justified or minor the change may seem, you don't alter people's words on the sly. This is a very slippery slope in regards to ethics and not something any reputable forum should ever do.
Actually, if your post is removed you are sent an e-mail telling you what post was removed and why it was removed directly to your in-box.What is written above are my honest opinions. If you agree then; "Great!" If you disagree; "Great!" I really couldn't care less either way.1