NO MORE CHANGES BEING MADE TO VAMPIRE. THIS IS HOW IT WILL LAUNCH.

Lord-Otto · May 2020

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

I'm really bummed they're keeping cost increase on stage 1. This will effectively render all my stamina vamps not only useless but detrimental as well, because they only had the skill line for the regen passive, and although I'm very fond of the look, and grown used to it, I'll have to sadly cure them.

And that is one of the main reasons ZOS is making the changes. The benefit from the passives far outweighed any negatives.

"Far"?
You think a lumpy 7% more recovery on a 900 recovery dps build changed the game? While 75% of all magical damage is fire and forces a vamp to be extra careful? That is risk versus reward and marks good game design.
Or was it the benefit of completing a lacking class kit, like mag DK and mobility in PvP? Well, now those classes remain lacking, so great achievement!

Nova_J · May 2020

Lord-Otto wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

I'm really bummed they're keeping cost increase on stage 1. This will effectively render all my stamina vamps not only useless but detrimental as well, because they only had the skill line for the regen passive, and although I'm very fond of the look, and grown used to it, I'll have to sadly cure them.

And that is one of the main reasons ZOS is making the changes. The benefit from the passives far outweighed any negatives.

"Far"?
You think a lumpy 7% more recovery on a 900 recovery dps build changed the game? While 75% of all magical damage is fire and forces a vamp to be extra careful? That is risk versus reward and marks good game design.
Or was it the benefit of completing a lacking class kit, like mag DK and mobility in PvP? Well, now those classes remain lacking, so great achievement!

Exactly, they were so damn worried about taking away a 10% regen that they overlooked the state of the vamp. In my opinion the cost increase shouldn't be there because being a vamp doesnt really warrant it. May because of frenzy it's that high? I cant think of any other reason why the cost increase would be that extreme.

Sephyr · May 2020

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

I'm really bummed they're keeping cost increase on stage 1. This will effectively render all my stamina vamps not only useless but detrimental as well, because they only had the skill line for the regen passive, and although I'm very fond of the look, and grown used to it, I'll have to sadly cure them.

And that is one of the main reasons ZOS is making the changes. The benefit from the passives far outweighed any negatives.

@ManwithBeard9 I don't know if you understood what I wrote, but I am not lamenting the loss of the passive, but the fact I will have to cure vamprism on my stam toons, since I will have no use for the skill line, and I am saddened by this, since I love the look on them.

More or less a general statement. Too many people want the benefits without and risk and now that it's being changed are throwing a hissy fit, not saying you are. But what is funny is that you LIKE the vamp look when I mainly see people wanting to hide it.

A couple of things here;

While many are upset with the missing passives, others of us are complaining about the direction of the disadvantages. Those of us in that latter group don't care that there's disadvantages, we care about if those disadvantages are WORTH it and are creative enough to engage with. Even with the PTS changes, people can quite easily negate the disadvantages from Stage 2-Stage 3 for the most part and stay at those stages. There's no reason why people would want to be Stage 4 (which is my favorite skin in the god damn game and that's being ripped from me and I hate it).
The benefits aren't really all that shiny. I'll continue to try to play with them over time just to try and find something worth engaging with the line, but aside from the spell/weapon damage passive out of stealth/mist form, it just seems very blah.

I really REALLY wish the line was much more engaging. I hate the fact that I'm yet again being punished for feeding. I'd rather have -100% fire resistance (including negating dunmer passives) than the -100% health regen disadvantage as that'd make most sense. Instead we have this weird "Blood is toxic" argument running around and that doesn't seem to jive well with the aesthetic of being a vampire. They had SO MUCH POTENTIAL to make this line super awesome and engaging. I didn't hype myself up and I STILL got let down.

That being said, if people have any ideas on how to properly engage with the skill line? I'm all ears. I'm not talking about metas, I'm talking about those fun, niche ideas in general.

Lord-Otto · May 2020

^(o.o)
Pop frenzy, hit with claw, deactivate frenzy, pop Scion, when Scion runs out run away with invisibility.
Suuuper exciting!

OmniDo · May 2020

If text feedback fails to accomplish the desired effect, then subscription management is the only other available option.

Vevvev · May 2020

Also Sneaking + Stage 2 passive + Race Against Time + Blood Frenzy + Meteor, is an incredibly powerful opener on just about anything. If you crit you might just one shot them.

Austinseph1 · May 2020

They year of the vampire, but it's actually the year of the Werewolf and vampire is pointless. That sounds about right, when vamp gets buffed and nerfed for the net 2 years maybe it will be worth it at some point.

MashmalloMan · May 2020

I understand the complaints about the fun factor and direction of the vampire skill line lacking, but the passives alone are now strong enough to warrant using vampire sometimes even if you don't use any of the skills (which you should if your going to higher vampire stages to outweigh a great deal of the cons).

If I think of the passives in terms of set design. We have a set like New Moon that gives you +480 weapon/spell damage on the 5 piece for +5% cost. Hundings Rage gives +300 weapon damage for no cost increase yet for a lot of people, they still find New Moon to be worth using, it's become a bis set for many pvp builds. Which honestly probably comes down to the fact that the 2-4 piece bonuses are also very solid, but Hundings Rage isn't really far behind from a statistical point of view on the 5 piece bonus.

So as a comparison, lets try to convert vampire bonuses into a 5 piece set.

5 pieces (stage 3 in mind): Strengthen yourself with the power of a vampire. Decrease your damage taken by up to 30% based on your missing health, decrease the time to enter crouch by 50% while also ignoring the movement speed penalty of sneak and increase your weapon and spell damage by 300 when exiting stealth for 6 seconds. However, the curse will make you take 13% more fire damage, 60% less health regen and 8% higher ability cost.

The Undeath passive alone makes vampire stage 3 equivilant to a Pariah set on steroids the same way New Moon is a juiced up Hundings Rage. Except 11k resistance can be negated by investing more into penetration or using Onslaught to completely negate it. Unamed damage mitigation like Undeath is vastly more powerful. Where Hundings is only slightly ahead on its 5 piece for +5% cost, Vampire Stage 3 is much farther ahead a set like Pariah while also having higher negatives attached to it.

11k resistance from pariah in pvp is +16.6% damage mitigation that can be penetrated and this requires you to be close to 0% health. Undeath on the other hand gets +15% damage mitigation that can't be penetrated at only 50% hp. Obviously there is diminishing returns with CP, etc, but almost double the potency warrants the cons on this "set" in comparison. Pariah is already OP af when you consider sets like Fortified Brass (Hundings Rage equivilant of static stats) only gives you 3460 resistance.

IMO, a set like that would make perfect sense, in fact, downright OP in pvp and it doesn't even touch on the fact that you get -16% cost to 6 new abilities from vampire which can entirely offset the regular cost increase if your using more than 1/3 of your drain on vampire skills for your main resource.

Stage 4 is more of a toss up for me, I don't think I'd use the invisibility all to often without using vampire abilities too, but I'm sure someone would. It also gives you a chance to enable the +300 damage passive and decreases sprint cost by 50%, which can be seen as a positive for offsetting the increased regular ability cost without needing to use any vampire skills. HP Regen is already 1 of the most useless stats in the game unless you get a pretty large investment into it. The flame damage taken is less than live. Losing 10% mag/stam regen is only like 40-60 regen/s depending on how far you actually invested into it. It baffles me how people don't see this.

For pve damage dealers not interested in using vampire skills, vampire obviously lost a lot of it's flavour because the passives are primarly pvp focussed, increasing your drain while also losing 10% regen, so why take some of the cons, even on stage 1. However, look at how much sustain you gain from using a skill like Blood for Blood as your spammable, spammables usually take up 30-50% of your resource drain in pve and your now, no longer using any of that. Thats like earning +1000 regen, you can entirely remove any sustain issues you once had for sacrificing some health that can easily be outhealed by not only yourself, but your group.

So for the people still complaining about Vampire cons being too powerful, you need to reevaluate what is actually being offered. Maybe it's not for you, but if the passives alone can still be used on characters without touching a single vampire ability, then the passives are obviously worth it if you know what your looking for. If stage 3/4 vampire was a 5 piece set, I guarantee people would consider it OP and overloaded, even without vampire cost reduction and use.

Dracane · May 2020

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Cerbolt wrote: »

Hope they're ready for the *** storm that's coming when this hits live lol

I just informed a friend on Facebook about the changes. He doesn't use the forums or PTS and was simply excited for Greymoor based on the cinematic trailers. After I told him about the passives, he's not so excited anymore. And he asked me why this went past PTS. I could only respond: "Well, ZOS.".

You should see the recent vampire thingy trailer they have added to facebook a few days before.
People on my friends list and in the comments are so excited. And yes, the trailer is well done and as always, manages well to hide how dull the actual gameplay of eso is.

So yea, people are unaware of how bad vampire will be and how they will suffer from the drawbacks.

Propaganda is still the strongest force on earth.

MashmalloMan · May 2020

Lord-Otto wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

I'm really bummed they're keeping cost increase on stage 1. This will effectively render all my stamina vamps not only useless but detrimental as well, because they only had the skill line for the regen passive, and although I'm very fond of the look, and grown used to it, I'll have to sadly cure them.

And that is one of the main reasons ZOS is making the changes. The benefit from the passives far outweighed any negatives.

"Far"?
You think a lumpy 7% more recovery on a 900 recovery dps build changed the game? While 75% of all magical damage is fire and forces a vamp to be extra careful? That is risk versus reward and marks good game design.
Or was it the benefit of completing a lacking class kit, like mag DK and mobility in PvP? Well, now those classes remain lacking, so great achievement!

10% not 7% regen. While that most likely only provided around 80-100 regen for pve DD's, free sustain = more damage. When stamina builds only invest around 300-400 regen in to food or enchantments, that free 10% does a lot to help you get by and focus on straight damage stats, that could be the difference between a damage enchantment on your jewelry or a regen enchantment. I know I'm able to get by with only about 1300 stamina regen after multipliers, losing 90 regen is going to make pve a little harder on sustain. I should of never had to rely on it to begin with.

Since the con's were never very detrimental (your kidding yourself if you think they are), it was far more benefiting to be a stage 2/3 vampire to get free sustain than it was to be human when your trying your best to push dps as much as possible in the first place. You should avoid damage to begin with, fire damage taken was only a real con in solo pve like some VMA rounds or pvp depending on the meta. If DK's are doing well 1 patch, you can bet your going to feel the fire damage taken a lot more than when they're not around. 75% of all magical damage is not fire in pvp, not even close.

You also realize ZOS has the statistics to see that most people in PVE compositions were vampires strictly for passives, I know I've made all my pve toons stage 2/3 vampires because of it and I'm glad I finally no longer feel shoehorned into becoming a vampire for DD's. Hell, tanks go stage 3 vampire all the time, it's recommended in most builds. Thus why ZOS has gone on record as stating they're intentions with the vampire changes were to reward actively choosing to use vampire abilities, instead of vampires being too rewarding for passives alone. HP Regen is useless and 15-20% fire damage taken is completely negated by Undeath and the huge amount of mitigation CP can offer you.

I don't have 9 toons as vampire in pve/pvp because I love Vampires for RP. I have them as vampires because I'd be stupid not to take advantage of those passives. Not a single toon I have uses any vampire abilities, yet they're all vampires. I'm not the only one who chooses to play this way.

MashmalloMan · May 2020

Dracane wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Cerbolt wrote: »

Hope they're ready for the *** storm that's coming when this hits live lol

I just informed a friend on Facebook about the changes. He doesn't use the forums or PTS and was simply excited for Greymoor based on the cinematic trailers. After I told him about the passives, he's not so excited anymore. And he asked me why this went past PTS. I could only respond: "Well, ZOS.".

You should see the recent vampire thingy trailer they have added to facebook a few days before.
People on my friends list and in the comments are so excited. And yes, the trailer is well done and as always, manages well to hide how dull the actual gameplay of eso is.

So yea, people are unaware of how bad vampire will be and how they will suffer from the drawbacks. Propaganda is still the strongest force on earth.

Yeah it's actually pretty hilarious how excited some people in the comments of those videos are when that trailer only showed 1 ability with 0 real data on how they actually function. I imagine they made the trailer that way because things are subject to change, why shoot yourself in the foot by giving exact numbers in a trailer meant for marketing purposes. It's best not alienate your audiance by giving information that may be falsified upon launch. Thus why they explained how Blood Frenzy functions as "more damage for losing health". That aspect of the skill will never change unfortunately.

That being said, the casuals who would enjoy more vampire abilities vs live, will not care about the increased cost on regular abilities because they'll actually use the skills whether or not it's optimal for their build. They want to play as a real vampire, period. In that way, ZOS has done their job, but when all is said and done, I don't like the kit they chose to give to vampires entirely. Drain and Blood Frenzy are the clearest issues I have the skill line. A gap closer or a real dot would of really helped flesh out this skill line instead of a toggle stat bonus. It's uninspiring to say the least.

Blood Frenzy was a BAD idea. A noob trap, a healer big *** you and another thing that will shoehorn end game pve builds in to grabbing just to optimize maximum dps. Werewolf was designed MUCH better and the recent buffs have brought it to a great place, it's a sub class option and in no way shoehorns stamina builds in to playing as them. Playing as a werewolf feels like a werewolf, actively feeding, forced to use all 5 abilites with the transformation. It's a choice that makes a big difference.

Elusiin · May 2020

CANNOT WAIT TO SEE THE PLAYERBASE REACT TO ACTUAL GAMEPLAY OF VAMPIRE, IT IS SO WONDERFUL.

dcam86b14_ESO · May 2020

I'm cool with it, i dont see the issue honestly.

Noxavian · May 2020

dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »

I'm cool with it, i dont see the issue honestly.

What do you like about the rework, then?

Do explain. I'm highly interested in what those that actually like the rework see in it.

Also acknowledge that while you don't have an issue with it, the vast majority do. Instead of making it seem like just because you like it then there are no issues with it.

Vevvev · May 2020

dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »

I'm cool with it, i dont see the issue honestly.

Noxavian does have a point. If you don't see any issues with it what do you like about it? I'm very curious because everyone has a different view point.

Do you like the feeding reversal?
Do you like the new abilities?
Do you like how the passives work ((or don't work)) with the abilities?
Do you like the look of the Blood Scion?
Do you like the functionality of the Blood Scion?
Do you agree with the developers vision for what they believe vampires are in the Elder Scrolls Universe?

These are just a few questions that come to mind.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · May 2020

Why do people feel that a meager 10% boost to Magicka and Stamina regeneration was worth 75%-50% Health Regeneration reduction?

Lord-Otto · May 2020

Dracane wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Cerbolt wrote: »

Hope they're ready for the *** storm that's coming when this hits live lol

I just informed a friend on Facebook about the changes. He doesn't use the forums or PTS and was simply excited for Greymoor based on the cinematic trailers. After I told him about the passives, he's not so excited anymore. And he asked me why this went past PTS. I could only respond: "Well, ZOS.".

You should see the recent vampire thingy trailer they have added to facebook a few days before.
People on my friends list and in the comments are so excited. And yes, the trailer is well done and as always, manages well to hide how dull the actual gameplay of eso is.

So yea, people are unaware of how bad vampire will be and how they will suffer from the drawbacks. Propaganda is still the strongest force on earth.

He actually commented on that very trailer. It does look awesome... just fails to tell you of the increased non-vamp costs and how the monster minion in the clip is the player's Scion looks.
(-_-)

Lord-Otto · May 2020

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

I'm really bummed they're keeping cost increase on stage 1. This will effectively render all my stamina vamps not only useless but detrimental as well, because they only had the skill line for the regen passive, and although I'm very fond of the look, and grown used to it, I'll have to sadly cure them.

And that is one of the main reasons ZOS is making the changes. The benefit from the passives far outweighed any negatives.

"Far"?
You think a lumpy 7% more recovery on a 900 recovery dps build changed the game? While 75% of all magical damage is fire and forces a vamp to be extra careful? That is risk versus reward and marks good game design.
Or was it the benefit of completing a lacking class kit, like mag DK and mobility in PvP? Well, now those classes remain lacking, so great achievement!

10% not 7% regen. While that most likely only provided around 80-100 regen for pve DD's, free sustain = more damage. When stamina builds only invest around 300-400 regen in to food or enchantments, that free 10% does a lot to help you get by and focus on straight damage stats, that could be the difference between a damage enchantment on your jewelry or a regen enchantment. I know I'm able to get by with only about 1300 stamina regen after multipliers, losing 90 regen is going to make pve a little harder on sustain. I should of never had to rely on it to begin with.

Since the con's were never very detrimental (your kidding yourself if you think they are), it was far more benefiting to be a stage 2/3 vampire to get free sustain than it was to be human when your trying your best to push dps as much as possible in the first place. You should avoid damage to begin with, fire damage taken was only a real con in solo pve like some VMA rounds or pvp depending on the meta. If DK's are doing well 1 patch, you can bet your going to feel the fire damage taken a lot more than when they're not around. 75% of all magical damage is not fire in pvp, not even close.

You also realize ZOS has the statistics to see that most people in PVE compositions were vampires strictly for passives, I know I've made all my pve toons stage 2/3 vampires because of it and I'm glad I finally no longer feel shoehorned into becoming a vampire for DD's. Hell, tanks go stage 3 vampire all the time, it's recommended in most builds. Thus why ZOS has gone on record as stating they're intentions with the vampire changes were to reward actively choosing to use vampire abilities, instead of vampires being too rewarding for passives alone. HP Regen is useless and 15-20% fire damage taken is completely negated by Undeath and the huge amount of mitigation CP can offer you.

I don't have 9 toons as vampire in pve/pvp because I love Vampires for RP. I have them as vampires because I'd be stupid not to take advantage of those passives. Not a single toon I have uses any vampire abilities, yet they're all vampires. I'm not the only one who chooses to play this way.

It was seven percent. Because of the way the game calculates regen, you didn't get a full 10% increase from the passive. More like seven.
Undeath doesn't help if you get oneshot by stuff you would otherwise survive. You shouldn't get hit, but dodging a lethal power attack every now and then versus having to dodge every medium fire attack because it kills you is quite the difference.
Why would you make vampires a pseudo-class? We have CLASSES for active abilities. Vampirism worked because it altered your class in minor passive ways. Now everyone will get rid of it because 5 skills aren't 15 skills and the "vampire class" is crap.

In fact, you know what "class" we wanted?
VAMPIRE LORD.
Not this cheap goliath reskin with a third of a class' kit.
ZOS have completely failed their customers' wishes.

MashmalloMan · May 2020

Lord-Otto wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

I'm really bummed they're keeping cost increase on stage 1. This will effectively render all my stamina vamps not only useless but detrimental as well, because they only had the skill line for the regen passive, and although I'm very fond of the look, and grown used to it, I'll have to sadly cure them.

And that is one of the main reasons ZOS is making the changes. The benefit from the passives far outweighed any negatives.

"Far"?
You think a lumpy 7% more recovery on a 900 recovery dps build changed the game? While 75% of all magical damage is fire and forces a vamp to be extra careful? That is risk versus reward and marks good game design.
Or was it the benefit of completing a lacking class kit, like mag DK and mobility in PvP? Well, now those classes remain lacking, so great achievement!

10% not 7% regen. While that most likely only provided around 80-100 regen for pve DD's, free sustain = more damage. When stamina builds only invest around 300-400 regen in to food or enchantments, that free 10% does a lot to help you get by and focus on straight damage stats, that could be the difference between a damage enchantment on your jewelry or a regen enchantment. I know I'm able to get by with only about 1300 stamina regen after multipliers, losing 90 regen is going to make pve a little harder on sustain. I should of never had to rely on it to begin with.

Since the con's were never very detrimental (your kidding yourself if you think they are), it was far more benefiting to be a stage 2/3 vampire to get free sustain than it was to be human when your trying your best to push dps as much as possible in the first place. You should avoid damage to begin with, fire damage taken was only a real con in solo pve like some VMA rounds or pvp depending on the meta. If DK's are doing well 1 patch, you can bet your going to feel the fire damage taken a lot more than when they're not around. 75% of all magical damage is not fire in pvp, not even close.

You also realize ZOS has the statistics to see that most people in PVE compositions were vampires strictly for passives, I know I've made all my pve toons stage 2/3 vampires because of it and I'm glad I finally no longer feel shoehorned into becoming a vampire for DD's. Hell, tanks go stage 3 vampire all the time, it's recommended in most builds. Thus why ZOS has gone on record as stating they're intentions with the vampire changes were to reward actively choosing to use vampire abilities, instead of vampires being too rewarding for passives alone. HP Regen is useless and 15-20% fire damage taken is completely negated by Undeath and the huge amount of mitigation CP can offer you.

I don't have 9 toons as vampire in pve/pvp because I love Vampires for RP. I have them as vampires because I'd be stupid not to take advantage of those passives. Not a single toon I have uses any vampire abilities, yet they're all vampires. I'm not the only one who chooses to play this way.

It was seven percent. Because of the way the game calculates regen, you didn't get a full 10% increase from the passive. More like seven.

Do you have evidence to back this up or are you just looking at your character sheet when you get the passive after you've already increased your Regen by other multipliers like armor and CP. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all Regen multipliers should be additive with one another, so 10 percent is 10 percent.

For example, if you had no multipliers on with 1000 base Regen (no one goes this high in PvE). Added in armor for 20%, potion for 20%, CP for 15% and a class passive like nb's for 15% you'd have +70% Regen for a total of 1700.

If you then added vampire, your base 1000 would increase by +10%, not the 1700. If you expected the 1700 would increase by 10% for +170 totaling 1870, but then saw you only got 1800, I'd see why you may think the 10% only adds 7%. In this exact example, +100 Regen from the passive would appear as only a 5.8% increase to your overall Regen which is correct, but the passive is still a 10% increase to your base value.

The place where your argument of 7% is better suited for is damage done bonuses that are multiplicative with one another where +10% damage done does not directly increase your total dps by 10% because it's diluted by CP, class passives, swords/fire and shock staff, minor/major berserk, and minor/major slayer. A 10% increase is usually closer to half of what you'd expect for your total DPS after all those other multipliers.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Undeath doesn't help if you get oneshot by stuff you would otherwise survive. You shouldn't get hit, but dodging a lethal power attack every now and then versus having to dodge every medium fire attack because it kills you is quite the difference.

Every medium fire attack is an over exaggeration, fire damage taken is a joke for what live vampirsm offers because you have CP, armor, self buffs and group buffs.. not to mention undeath. The only place your usually going to die, is by not following some mechanic. Not all damage is fire damage to begin with, yes it's the most common element, but it's not all damage. Your going to get pure benefit out of undeath when it isn't fire damage. Being aware of when and if you should be vampire stage 3 or stage 1 is entirely up to the player and the content your running. You can go through something like all of VMA and only decrease yourself to stage 1 on the fire stage while getting free mitigation on almost every other stage. I've personally stopped doing that. Recovering from execute phases in this game is extremely important and undeath helps you do that very well.

People have largely agreed for years that the cons of being a vampire can easily be mitigated to offer much better pros so it's news to me that suddenly, the fire damage taken was "enough" of a con that everyone had to think long and hard about being a vampire. Except that's not true, there's a reason some people are curing 18 of their toons. That doesn't sound like a balanced choice to be human, pts is. So I'm happy to cure my toons and I'm happy to see true vampires that actually use vampire skills going forward. I don't like feeling shoe horned.

Let's not forget, fire damage taken is going down to 13 % and undeath has doubled in potency working from 50% HP to 100% HP so increasing your ability cost is a fair trade. An even easier trade if your actually using vampire skills.

For any stealth NB's that relied on vampire stage 4 to get no sneak penalty, they now can choose to go to stage 1 where the cons are non existent for something that useful. Even stage 2 greatly helps the ganking playstyle.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Why would you make vampires a pseudo-class? We have CLASSES for active abilities. Vampirism worked because it altered your class in minor passive ways. Now everyone will get rid of it because 5 skills aren't 15 skills and the "vampire class" is crap.

It still greatly alters your playstyle with passives if that's what you wanted, the passives are much stronger, the con of increased cost is too. Even trade.

ZOS had 2 choices.

A ) Redesign vampire to behave exactly like werewolf that requires a transformation to use a set amount of skills, therefore the skills would NEED to be a full complete kit like werewolf. Passives would only activate for the most part in vampire form, cutting off all access to your regular skills. THIS is the true sub-class option you're acting like they chose, but they didn't.

Or

B ) Stay true to ESO and previous elder scrolls titles. Being a vampire does not require a transformation, it's something that augments your existing playstyle with risk vs reward, pros vs cons. This is speculation, but it seems true: In their view, designing a complete tool kit that covered everything from a dot, spammable, execute, gap closer, heal and self buff like werewolf would of made much less sense than providing options for classes that may be missing specific tools. Your suppose to integrate vampire skills with your base skills, not completely rely on all 6 of them and only them alone. You have 12 skill slots as a vampire where a werewolf in their form has only 5. I think it's obvious why the 6 skills are not designed like werewolf.

This is where people are probably on the fence between A and B, but I feel like they made the right choice by going option B. The issue lies within how they chose to design some of the skills, specifically speaking blood frenzy and drain from their base concept. No amount of fine tuning will make these skills any more interesting because they're flawed from their core design. They're not fun to use.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

In fact, you know what "class" we wanted?
VAMPIRE LORD.
Not this cheap goliath reskin with a third of a class' kit.
ZOS have completely failed their customers' wishes.

So your option A then, but your also option B, you can't have it both ways, if it was a full on transformation, you would no longer have access to an open skill line or strong passives that you can use with your base class. I wouldn't say all of the player base wanted it that way, most people just wanted a complete skill line of 6 skills and they did that... To a crappy degree, but they did that.

Designing NPCs with more interesting active abilities people actually want to use is the biggest mistake they've made.

Cameron991 · May 2020

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

I'm really bummed they're keeping cost increase on stage 1. This will effectively render all my stamina vamps not only useless but detrimental as well, because they only had the skill line for the regen passive, and although I'm very fond of the look, and grown used to it, I'll have to sadly cure them.

And that is one of the main reasons ZOS is making the changes. The benefit from the passives far outweighed any negatives.

"Far"?
You think a lumpy 7% more recovery on a 900 recovery dps build changed the game? While 75% of all magical damage is fire and forces a vamp to be extra careful? That is risk versus reward and marks good game design.
Or was it the benefit of completing a lacking class kit, like mag DK and mobility in PvP? Well, now those classes remain lacking, so great achievement!

10% not 7% regen. While that most likely only provided around 80-100 regen for pve DD's, free sustain = more damage. When stamina builds only invest around 300-400 regen in to food or enchantments, that free 10% does a lot to help you get by and focus on straight damage stats, that could be the difference between a damage enchantment on your jewelry or a regen enchantment. I know I'm able to get by with only about 1300 stamina regen after multipliers, losing 90 regen is going to make pve a little harder on sustain. I should of never had to rely on it to begin with.

Since the con's were never very detrimental (your kidding yourself if you think they are), it was far more benefiting to be a stage 2/3 vampire to get free sustain than it was to be human when your trying your best to push dps as much as possible in the first place. You should avoid damage to begin with, fire damage taken was only a real con in solo pve like some VMA rounds or pvp depending on the meta. If DK's are doing well 1 patch, you can bet your going to feel the fire damage taken a lot more than when they're not around. 75% of all magical damage is not fire in pvp, not even close.

You also realize ZOS has the statistics to see that most people in PVE compositions were vampires strictly for passives, I know I've made all my pve toons stage 2/3 vampires because of it and I'm glad I finally no longer feel shoehorned into becoming a vampire for DD's. Hell, tanks go stage 3 vampire all the time, it's recommended in most builds. Thus why ZOS has gone on record as stating they're intentions with the vampire changes were to reward actively choosing to use vampire abilities, instead of vampires being too rewarding for passives alone. HP Regen is useless and 15-20% fire damage taken is completely negated by Undeath and the huge amount of mitigation CP can offer you.

I don't have 9 toons as vampire in pve/pvp because I love Vampires for RP. I have them as vampires because I'd be stupid not to take advantage of those passives. Not a single toon I have uses any vampire abilities, yet they're all vampires. I'm not the only one who chooses to play this way.

It was seven percent. Because of the way the game calculates regen, you didn't get a full 10% increase from the passive. More like seven.

Do you have evidence to back this up or are you just looking at your character sheet when you get the passive after you've already increased your Regen by other multipliers like armor and CP. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all Regen multipliers should be additive with one another, so 10 percent is 10 percent.

For example, if you had no multipliers on with 1000 base Regen (no one goes this high in PvE). Added in armor for 20%, potion for 20%, CP for 15% and a class passive like nb's for 15% you'd have +70% Regen for a total of 1700.

If you then added vampire, your base 1000 would increase by +10%, not the 1700. If you expected the 1700 would increase by 10% for +170 totaling 1870, but then saw you only got 1800, I'd see why you may think the 10% only adds 7%. In this exact example, +100 Regen from the passive would appear as only a 5.8% increase to your overall Regen which is correct, but the passive is still a 10% increase to your base value.

The place where your argument of 7% is better suited for is damage done bonuses that are multiplicative with one another where +10% damage done does not directly increase your total dps by 10% because it's diluted by CP, class passives, swords/fire and shock staff, minor/major berserk, and minor/major slayer. A 10% increase is usually closer to half of what you'd expect for your total DPS after all those other multipliers.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Undeath doesn't help if you get oneshot by stuff you would otherwise survive. You shouldn't get hit, but dodging a lethal power attack every now and then versus having to dodge every medium fire attack because it kills you is quite the difference.

Every medium fire attack is an over exaggeration, fire damage taken is a joke for what live vampirsm offers because you have CP, armor, self buffs and group buffs.. not to mention undeath. The only place your usually going to die, is by not following some mechanic. Not all damage is fire damage to begin with, yes it's the most common element, but it's not all damage. Your going to get pure benefit out of undeath when it isn't fire damage. Being aware of when and if you should be vampire stage 3 or stage 1 is entirely up to the player and the content your running. You can go through something like all of VMA and only decrease yourself to stage 1 on the fire stage while getting free mitigation on almost every other stage. I've personally stopped doing that. Recovering from execute phases in this game is extremely important and undeath helps you do that very well.

People have largely agreed for years that the cons of being a vampire can easily be mitigated to offer much better pros so it's news to me that suddenly, the fire damage taken was "enough" of a con that everyone had to think long and hard about being a vampire. Except that's not true, there's a reason some people are curing 18 of their toons. That doesn't sound like a balanced choice to be human, pts is. So I'm happy to cure my toons and I'm happy to see true vampires that actually use vampire skills going forward. I don't like feeling shoe horned.

Let's not forget, fire damage taken is going down to 13 % and undeath has doubled in potency working from 50% HP to 100% HP so increasing your ability cost is a fair trade. An even easier trade if your actually using vampire skills.

For any stealth NB's that relied on vampire stage 4 to get no sneak penalty, they now can choose to go to stage 1 where the cons are non existent for something that useful. Even stage 2 greatly helps the ganking playstyle.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Why would you make vampires a pseudo-class? We have CLASSES for active abilities. Vampirism worked because it altered your class in minor passive ways. Now everyone will get rid of it because 5 skills aren't 15 skills and the "vampire class" is crap.

It still greatly alters your playstyle with passives if that's what you wanted, the passives are much stronger, the con of increased cost is too. Even trade.

ZOS had 2 choices.

A ) Redesign vampire to behave exactly like werewolf that requires a transformation to use a set amount of skills, therefore the skills would NEED to be a full complete kit like werewolf. Passives would only activate for the most part in vampire form, cutting off all access to your regular skills. THIS is the true sub-class option you're acting like they chose, but they didn't.

Or

B ) Stay true to ESO and previous elder scrolls titles. Being a vampire does not require a transformation, it's something that augments your existing playstyle with risk vs reward, pros vs cons. This is speculation, but it seems true: In their view, designing a complete tool kit that covered everything from a dot, spammable, execute, gap closer, heal and self buff like werewolf would of made much less sense than providing options for classes that may be missing specific tools. Your suppose to integrate vampire skills with your base skills, not completely rely on all 6 of them and only them alone. You have 12 skill slots as a vampire where a werewolf in their form has only 5. I think it's obvious why the 6 skills are not designed like werewolf.

This is where people are probably on the fence between A and B, but I feel like they made the right choice by going option B. The issue lies within how they chose to design some of the skills, specifically speaking blood frenzy and drain from their base concept. No amount of fine tuning will make these skills any more interesting because they're flawed from their core design. They're not fun to use.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

In fact, you know what "class" we wanted?
VAMPIRE LORD.
Not this cheap goliath reskin with a third of a class' kit.
ZOS have completely failed their customers' wishes.

So your option A then, but your also option B, you can't have it both ways, if it was a full on transformation, you would no longer have access to an open skill line or strong passives that you can use with your base class. I wouldn't say all of the player base wanted it that way, most people just wanted a complete skill line of 6 skills and they did that... To a crappy degree, but they did that.

Designing NPCs with more interesting active abilities people actually want to use is the biggest mistake they've made.

I agree with you on your last point you made about Zos making the npc vampires more interesting then ours. That is honestly my only complaint... I’m fine with all of the cons mostly but I just want to feel more like a vampire with a more active and interesting kit just like the NPCs have

Lord-Otto · May 2020

It is not true to old Elder Scrolls game mechanics. Vampires have always been about the passives first, with a couple minor skills thrown in. We were still playing our "class", so to speak. It's when Dawnguard came that we got an active transformation "ult". And this is what people wanted.
ZOS have it reversed now. Fitting, as feeding is reversed, too. We now get a half-baked vampire "class" which is a detriment to our real class, and the transformation ult is now a passive boost. It's the complete opposite!

Regarding the regeneration, without buffs, just my character being equipped, the magicka regen dips by 6.8% going to stage 1 (losing Supernatural Recovery). This passive does not grant ten percent. And if people say 4% more costs aren't a gamechanger, then surely 7% regen won't be, neither.

Varana · May 2020

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Why do people feel that a meager 10% boost to Magicka and Stamina regeneration was worth 75%-50% Health Regeneration reduction?

Because in advanced PvE, nobody cares even a tiny bit for health regen except for some tank builds. DDs can live very well with 0% health regen. You have a healer for that, or a skill that does damage and self-heals.

Every bit of regeneration can be directly translated into damage, though - minus one heavy attack = plus one light attack + skill; a regen glyph can be swapped for a damage glyph; an Absorb Resource enchantment can be thrown out for a damage enchantment.

Edit: Stages 1 and 2 are not an issue, I think. I would never dream of using New Moon Acolyte on my sorcerer because she doesn't have good sustain anyway. Other classes or builds are fine with NMA, and they will be fine with the new vampirism.
The Supernatural Recovery passive was just so good because for most PvE builds, it came essentially for free, except in some niche cases.

katorga · May 2020

I went vampire on my Magplar and Magcro because it was the only option to get mobility and/or a stun. My worry is that I am forced to endure the increased vampire negatives to get what looks to be a pretty bad instant CC.

What Vampire does offer, at the cost of some really bad negatives, is the ability to catch up to stamina's stat advantage. All said, with major sorcery, Vampire can give me ~1100 spell damage. That still doesn't get me to the weapon damage of an average stam build on live....is it worth it? Dunno. I'll run it for a month and see.

Or I could just cure, swap to stamina and get way more Effective Damage, better sustain (15% cost advantage for stamina abilities), easier access to sprint, roll and block, and instant CC, and end up with a more powerful character with zero disadvantages.

Sephyr · May 2020

For the people who like the new vampirism, I'd like to ask the following (no shade or anything, I legit want to see it from a different PoV)

How are you personally engaging with the line in regards to managing Stages and feeding?
Do you have abilities that you feel pairs well with your class's (as well as your character's) identity/aesthetic?
What do you do about the stall times in your Blood Scion form if you use it?
If you use Fury/Frenzy, how do you manage the health cost?
If you're running Stage 4, how are you managing your -100% health recovery? Do you use sets that give you healing that isn't through health regen (if so, which)? Class heals (if so, which)?
What parts of the rework do you find personally engaging and rewarding? Note: That's not about the passives.
Do you find vampirism engages well with the Justice System and if so, how are you engaging in it?

Paradisius · May 2020

Sephyr wrote: »

For the people who like the new vampirism, I'd like to ask the following (no shade or anything, I legit want to see it from a different PoV)
How are you personally engaging with the line in regards to managing Stages and feeding?

Do you have abilities that you feel pairs well with your class's (as well as your character's) identity/aesthetic?

What do you do about the stall times in your Blood Scion form if you use it?

If you use Fury/Frenzy, how do you manage the health cost?

If you're running Stage 4, how are you managing your -100% health recovery? Do you use sets that give you healing that isn't through health regen (if so, which)? Class heals (if so, which)?

What parts of the rework do you find personally engaging and rewarding? Note: That's not about the passives.

Do you find vampirism engages well with the Justice System and if so, how are you engaging in it?

I am more mixed than anything on the new Vampire, but I feel like I should throw out my 2 cents anyway

1. On the live servers I kinda just stay at stage 4 anyway, 25% fire damage did not bother me. So I plan to do the same. (Besides, I really like the new feeding animations)
2. I main a Magicka Necro so to some extent there is synergy (In that in a normal scenario I will usually be in melee range to avoid blastbone delay/weirdness in a rotation, and the lower my health is the more critical healing my Living Death abilities do)
3. This one really annoys me, if they basically copied Bone Goliath, why isnt it seamless like the Goliath? Anyways, i usually pop scion on my back bar and dont cast Spirit Guardian, then proceed with the normal rotation. As for exiting scion? I kinda just live with the stun (Though I hope they address it)
4. Before the 6.0.3 Patch managing Blood Frenzy with just the Spirit Guardian was simplicity itself. Now I make sure to turn it on only during my front bar rotation, and turn it off before I go into my backbar. (Though Im still on the fence about using the ability in general, this was just through 6.0.3 testing)
5. Spirit Guardian covers this topic as well for me
6. Personally, before 6.0.3 it was the Vampiric cost reduction. Going into stage 4 made your abilities really powerful for the low cost. Now however..well I have very mixed feelings about it, going into stage 4 just breaks even and feels less rewarding.
7. Lore about Noxophilic Sanguivoria being vampires that blend in with society being thrown into the brazier aside, the Justice system is interesting. However the whole "use mesmerize to use banks merchants" only works sometimes, otherwise not a bad change to me.

mikemacon · May 2020

Thank God!

Jeremy · May 2020

Lord-Otto wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

I'm really bummed they're keeping cost increase on stage 1. This will effectively render all my stamina vamps not only useless but detrimental as well, because they only had the skill line for the regen passive, and although I'm very fond of the look, and grown used to it, I'll have to sadly cure them.

And that is one of the main reasons ZOS is making the changes. The benefit from the passives far outweighed any negatives.

"Far"?
You think a lumpy 7% more recovery on a 900 recovery dps build changed the game? While 75% of all magical damage is fire and forces a vamp to be extra careful? That is risk versus reward and marks good game design.
Or was it the benefit of completing a lacking class kit, like mag DK and mobility in PvP? Well, now those classes remain lacking, so great achievement!

Players have always dismissed the added fire damage weaknesses on live as insignificant for some reason and I'll never understand why. The truth is it's a a real weakness and one that can ruin your day against the right opponent. My only guess is there is a website or streamer somewhere that says it's not a big deal so everyone just believes it.

In that sense: these upcoming changes to Vampire are going to be a buff for players who simply want access to the skill line (possibly players like yourself who want to fill in weaknesses like mobility in PvP). In Greymoor you can stay at stage 1 and still make frequent use of your Vampire Abilities - something you can't really do currently on Live due to how stages work. Sure, you'll spend 3% more on your regular abilities, but you'll also take 20% less damage from fire. So this should be a welcomed change for players who become Vampires just for Mist Form (which has been improved as well).

Sephyr · May 2020

Paradisius wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

For the people who like the new vampirism, I'd like to ask the following (no shade or anything, I legit want to see it from a different PoV)
How are you personally engaging with the line in regards to managing Stages and feeding?

Do you have abilities that you feel pairs well with your class's (as well as your character's) identity/aesthetic?

What do you do about the stall times in your Blood Scion form if you use it?

If you use Fury/Frenzy, how do you manage the health cost?

If you're running Stage 4, how are you managing your -100% health recovery? Do you use sets that give you healing that isn't through health regen (if so, which)? Class heals (if so, which)?

What parts of the rework do you find personally engaging and rewarding? Note: That's not about the passives.

Do you find vampirism engages well with the Justice System and if so, how are you engaging in it?

I am more mixed than anything on the new Vampire, but I feel like I should throw out my 2 cents anyway

1. On the live servers I kinda just stay at stage 4 anyway, 25% fire damage did not bother me. So I plan to do the same. (Besides, I really like the new feeding animations)
2. I main a Magicka Necro so to some extent there is synergy (In that in a normal scenario I will usually be in melee range to avoid blastbone delay/weirdness in a rotation, and the lower my health is the more critical healing my Living Death abilities do)
3. This one really annoys me, if they basically copied Bone Goliath, why isnt it seamless like the Goliath? Anyways, i usually pop scion on my back bar and dont cast Spirit Guardian, then proceed with the normal rotation. As for exiting scion? I kinda just live with the stun (Though I hope they address it)
4. Before the 6.0.3 Patch managing Blood Frenzy with just the Spirit Guardian was simplicity itself. Now I make sure to turn it on only during my front bar rotation, and turn it off before I go into my backbar. (Though Im still on the fence about using the ability in general, this was just through 6.0.3 testing)
5. Spirit Guardian covers this topic as well for me
6. Personally, before 6.0.3 it was the Vampiric cost reduction. Going into stage 4 made your abilities really powerful for the low cost. Now however..well I have very mixed feelings about it, going into stage 4 just breaks even and feels less rewarding.
7. Lore about Noxophilic Sanguivoria being vampires that blend in with society being thrown into the brazier aside, the Justice system is interesting. However the whole "use mesmerize to use banks merchants" only works sometimes, otherwise not a bad change to me.

Any and all cents are warranted @Paradisius ! Despite my major salt about the line, I genuinely want to try to see it from other points of view because I'm still rather undecided on what I should do for myself and I'm always willing to admit that I'll be missing things. I may end up making a threat of it's own, simply because I think it's warranted. I think I'll wait until after it hits the live servers to do that though, once things have calmed down and seeing the official release natch potes as some things could still change (and if they do, I hope it's for the better for everyone involved).

I do have a few followups if you don't mind!

You mentioned that you main a Magicka Necro, are you interested in using the Vampire spammable? If so, are you still using staves to do so? (I'm on the fence with that dual wield passive for extra spell damage myself)
With Blood Frenzy, do you find it difficult to turn off in high activity scenarios? Things like being overwhelmed by trash mobs while also having to deal with mechanics.
Do you feel that Blood Scion is generally worth the slot? If so, which morph do you prefer more and what do you like about it?

Moonsorrow · May 2020

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Do you have evidence to back this up or are you just looking at your character sheet when you get the passive after you've already increased your Regen by other multipliers like armor and CP. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all Regen multipliers should be additive with one another, so 10 percent is 10 percent.

Well, actually.. Lord-Otto is not wrong. Here is the reality plus some rant as a bonus:

ZOS made changes a long while back ago. Reason was they made food/drink buffs to work with the CP % increase.. (they did not before), at the time of the Racial Update.

Our Races had all them % health/stam/mag bonus increases to regens and stats that were changed to flat numbers. At first iterations our stats went down a lot. Especially on max stat builds and niche pvp big regen builds (Bosmer Rapids spammer for PVP organized group as an example for big stam regen use).

After some complaints (like i made huge walls of texts to cry about it back then) they made the food/drinks to work with CP modifier to give something back.. and made things multiplicative instead of additive to uhh.. so not ending up buffing us too much, that cannot happen lol.

Even the % cost reductions, like Bretons 7% cost reduction to magicka skills is multiplicatively calculated with other cost reductions.. cannot have them sweet additive thingies anymore lol, so no matter what you do, you end up with diminishing returns in regen and cost reductions if you got many sources and play in a CP environment (no-cp PVP is pretty much the only thing where you not play in such a situation, and a new character without CP obviously).

Cost reductions to Ultimates, like Potentantes or Akaviri Dragonguard sets (-15% to ultimate cost) still work like things used to (additive).

TL/DR: No, the 10 percent is not a real 10 percent in most cases, only in No-CP PVP it can be, if you are wearing a full heavy armor so got no other % multipliers from ma/la set armor passives.

If you want "evidence", just do the math on the regen numbers. There is a tool tip UI bug on food/drink resource numbers (on drinks/food that give regen) on character sheet though that has been there for a while, take that into consideration though and go with the real numbers known.

Paradisius · May 2020

Sephyr wrote: »

Any and all cents are warranted @Paradisius ! Despite my major salt about the line, I genuinely want to try to see it from other points of view because I'm still rather undecided on what I should do for myself and I'm always willing to admit that I'll be missing things. I may end up making a threat of it's own, simply because I think it's warranted. I think I'll wait until after it hits the live servers to do that though, once things have calmed down and seeing the official release natch potes as some things could still change (and if they do, I hope it's for the better for everyone involved).

I do have a few followups if you don't mind!
You mentioned that you main a Magicka Necro, are you interested in using the Vampire spammable? If so, are you still using staves to do so? (I'm on the fence with that dual wield passive for extra spell damage myself)

With Blood Frenzy, do you find it difficult to turn off in high activity scenarios? Things like being overwhelmed by trash mobs while also having to deal with mechanics.

Do you feel that Blood Scion is generally worth the slot? If so, which morph do you prefer more and what do you like about it?

Sure! I dont mind at all @Sephyr

1. I will use the new spammable, the way Magcro rotation works it becomes more unpredictable the further away you are, and the skull is rather clunky to weave with. Blood for Blood is alot smoother and higher damage And I will use inferno staves with it, boosts my other sources of damage for no real change to my normal play style.
2. Yes, its why I am on the fence of using it. In high pressure scenarios I will more than likely keep it turned off, dont want another source of management during times like that.
3. Swarming Scion I say is just enough in terms of selfish dps and healing output. With Swarming Scion on I get a massive offensive boost from +10k maximum magicka and the swarm of bats, then the healing factor makes it to where I can leave Simmering Frenzy on much longer than if I just had the spirit guardian active.
However, Glacial Collossus costs the exact same amount of ulti at stage 4 as the Scion. So in something like a Vet DLC dungeon or a Trial, is the group going to benefit more from Major Vuln on the boss for the whole group to use, or my selfish dps increase from a mix of +10k maximum magicka and more frenzy uptime? I think the answer is clear...