navystylz_ESO wrote: »

SkyMagpie wrote: »

Wow so many replies, thank you all, it does put things into perspective, however I still don't think a lot of those spells can hold up in endgame PvE (talking bout dungeon challengers and vet HM trials) the way a person without vampirism could, the drawback is worse than the reward. A lot of boss fights in recent trials and dungeons last very long so you won't be able to sustain through them. Yes quick fights you will probably do good, but when it comes to a lot of PvE endgame you need consistent sustained damage and resources, but it seems you will burn yourself out really fast.

I agree. I already thought being stage 4 vampire wasn't as attractive prior to this PTS build. Easier to build around reducing normal ability cost penalty while bolstering vampire playstyle. But that same application made being stage 1 or 2 better, since you already had less normal cost penalty, and the vampire costs weren't *that* bad. All you'd lose out on was undeath, but let's be honest, players already have tons of ways to be sturdy.

This new change gutted the only draw of being stage 4. Instead of 40% cost reduction, it was cut in half. So now stage 4 is even worse. Punish the vampire side of things because people wanted to use normal abilities easier. In addition to this, the cost change to frenzy destroyed the skill and made it so simmering will NEVER be chosen as an option. Subsequently, your frenzy killing you means undeath is worthless because you're killing yourself already no matter how much damage you're avoiding otherwise. The one skill that made the biggest difference in being a vampire or not, has way less uptime. Or at the very least a lot more micromanagement of toggling on and off. If this was the intent, why on god's green earth is it a friggin toggle and not just a 1 click buff?

Frenzy and deep vampire play required building around it, which means changing your build actually net you less boost in damage from frenzy, but was ok because you could keep it up much better and benefit from higher damage longer. This being removed, then it's like what is the actual draw of being a vampire if it just seems like a bunch of negatives that don't make it worthwhile over being a non vampire?

This is pretty much the same conclusions I came too. And I'm not even sure what the point of these changes were. People are not going to flock to stage 4 now because there is a 12% ability cost increase instead of 20% when they can just stay at stage 1 and take a 3% cut (not to mention avoid the regen and fire damage penalties).

Blood Frenzy was probably the best addition to the Vampire Tree and they completely ruined it. The skill is just awful now. It's a great way to kill yourself, but that's about it.

Jeremy wrote: »

It used to be good for people who wanted to concentrate heavily on Vampire abilities as well.

You mean it was only good for people who wanted to concentrate heavily on vampire abilities. That was the problem.

SkyMagpie wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

If you insist on being stage 4 tank or healer, of course it will be a hard hit. But why do you need to be at stage 4 again?

If not for DPS and not for tanks and heals, who is stage 4 meant for? PvP? What would encourage anyone to have higher stages of vamp except for RP?

This has been my contention from the start. Passives are nice and all, but vampire skill line gives everything without needing to invest. Dealing with increased vampire skill cost isn't as bad as dealing with all the penalties. And now that the vampire skill reduction has been gutted, even less reason to be stage 4. Frenzy made it's cost way too heavy. Toggling on Frenzy at stage 1 won't be much different from toggling on at stage 4. It's like going 50 mph rather than 70 mph on a 10 min drive. You won't be driving long enough to see a difference. Same with frenzy, you can't keep it on long enough that the bit longer is a huge dmg increase over the bit shorter.

Aelorin wrote: »

Hey,

I played around on pts with my magcro.

The first round, i could up my DPS, while using blood for blood and frenzy, while also slotting a few heals. Health did not drop low. Mind you that was on a dummy parse.

Second round with pts 6.0.3. The constant health drain, the increased cost of vamp skills, makes my DPS drop as on live. Furthermore, watching to turn on and off frenzy is not fun or rewarding. I tried to changs blood for blood to the magicka cersion but even then health and magicka becomes a problem. For dungeons and trials vamp is a no go right now.

I probably use it on a magblade for RP and overland content.

The increased skill cost on vamp abilities plus the constant drain from frenzy made vamp a lot less fun and worthwhile.

I play a magcro as well and I feel it has a nice synergy with vamp. I had never really used Mystic Siphon and Braided Teather before (and only used Nectoric Potency to clean up bodies after combat). However, the increased cost (before 6.0.3) made me experiment with them. I have to say it as a very fun yet very challenging playstyle. It forced me to play differently, really having to time and think about corpse generation and consumption along with how I positioned myself during combat (but I guess that was the original intent of necro anyway). It was differently NOT a build for a n00b or someone who wants to keep things simple or drop things fast.

I was actually enjoying my new vamp magcro build. Yes I had complaints and even started a thread about the insanely high cost of every vamp skill other than Eviscerate. Hey ZOS ... Its not a 40% reduction if it starts out 50% higher than everything else in the game (looking at you vamp Ult and Drain ).

Then 6.0.3 happened. WTF!!! if I though vamps skills cost too much before ... now it's like what is the point. Frenzy is now a death sentence. It was manageable before 6.0.3 by either using spirt mender or braided tether or blood mist. Now, none of those abilities alone is enough to offset the health drain from frenzy. On top of that w/o frenzy blood mist is soooo pointless as the damage it does is laughable... I get using mist form as an oh s*** button but I was trying to bring it into my rotation. Before 6.0.3 it worked well. Toggle frenzy and blood mist on and kill a mob (albeit slowly ... death of a thousand paper cuts). Now blood mist is a pointless morph. If I need the damage reduction in an emergency odds are I probably want to get out of there or drop aggro in a group and putting ourtdamage doesn't help either. At least with Frenzy, Blood Mist was useable as an AoE DoT that allowed my magcro to survive in melee range but now is too expensive for what it is ... the non-damage increased speed morph might work for some PVP use case (i wouldn't know)but it not that useful in PvE.

The net of all this is zero of the vamp skills (other than the overpriced ult of Blood Scion) make since with a ranged magicka build.

Jeremy wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Think that was the point, to have to build around it. Instead they made

Tessitura wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

OP asked about pve and people talk about mist form escaping, sneaking and pressuring lol.
In pve, vamps will be only for RP or cheesing dummy parse.

Boy you just don't pay attention do you? Did you even read what we said? Frenzy is not that useful in pvp but it is in pve, in fact, it's pretty amazing in a lot of fights and good for quick trash clears its a bit tougher to pull off now because of how much it costs, but I managed to make it work. In fact I think they need to adjust the cost again, but at it's core its a good ability if a bit strange. And the spammable is a pretty high damage one that can be used by magicka builds, it's not just a pvp thing. wp/sp passive helps in pve too, and so does undeath. And the ult is amazing damage in both pve and pvp. You seriously need to take time to actually look at the tools they have given us here.

Oh, ya. People have really been clamoring for skills that makes them clear useless stuff faster. There is a reason trash is called trash. It's the junk you must get through before the real fights. Probably the most iconic new vampire ability for this build is frenzy, and being MAYBE useful on trash because you murder yourself doesn't cut it by a long shot.

There are too many penalties for the reward gained with vampire right now. Reducing the amount of vampire ability cost reduction was a bad idea, and the speed in which Frenzy ramps up is as well. Having to manage resource for non vampire abilities was just WAY TOO MUCH in the last build and no reasonable person could do it, but juggling not dying from extra fire dmg, no health regen, and your frenzy trying to kill you much faster is this perfect sweet spot some of you are trying to push? Come on man.

And this of course is managing it on stable servers that don't lag out and contrive to make you face plant.

Buddy, you are cherry picking. I said fights and trash, fights mean -bosses-. You are free to believe it's useless, to think that cost is too high. But I am a guy that cleared some of that end game content with vampire, along with a group of vampires. THe cost increase was fine, we managed it just fine. We didn't even have to go out of our way to build for it. Just wait a few months after launch when you are seeing vamps running that content just fine. I don't disagree that the current build for Frenzy isn't the best, nor do I disagree that it would be better to have the 40% cost reduction back on vamp abilities.But it is still a good skill line. Feel free not to believe me, but vamp is currently viable for end game content. Not ceiling smashing, but viable.

I want to clearify that Blood Frenzy is useful, but that doesn't mean it's not a pain in the ass to use. In my opinion ZoS still has a lot of work to do with this ability. As I said, it is useful and you can pull some really nice numbers with it in a fight, but it's skill ceiling is very high right now and I am not sure I like that.

I really don't see how you make use of this skill. I've tried and it's more of a burden then anything.

All I can guess is that maybe if you are in a situation where you have someone else tanking your enemy for you and you're not taking any damage - it might could be useful if you micromanage the hell out of it. But for any situation where you're actually taking incoming damage while fighting I don't see how it could do anything but contribute to your doom.

Yeah man, thats called being a dps in a boss fight. Someone else tanks and you do damage. You are not wrong it is work to manage, but sated at least can be managed. You gotta work for it though and pick your moments. I did make it work but that doesn't mean the ability is where it should be. I think its too tough for the average build to make use out of, only magicka builds for sure, no stam could manage it.

Tessitura wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Think that was the point, to have to build around it. Instead they made

Tessitura wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

OP asked about pve and people talk about mist form escaping, sneaking and pressuring lol.
In pve, vamps will be only for RP or cheesing dummy parse.

Boy you just don't pay attention do you? Did you even read what we said? Frenzy is not that useful in pvp but it is in pve, in fact, it's pretty amazing in a lot of fights and good for quick trash clears its a bit tougher to pull off now because of how much it costs, but I managed to make it work. In fact I think they need to adjust the cost again, but at it's core its a good ability if a bit strange. And the spammable is a pretty high damage one that can be used by magicka builds, it's not just a pvp thing. wp/sp passive helps in pve too, and so does undeath. And the ult is amazing damage in both pve and pvp. You seriously need to take time to actually look at the tools they have given us here.

Oh, ya. People have really been clamoring for skills that makes them clear useless stuff faster. There is a reason trash is called trash. It's the junk you must get through before the real fights. Probably the most iconic new vampire ability for this build is frenzy, and being MAYBE useful on trash because you murder yourself doesn't cut it by a long shot.

There are too many penalties for the reward gained with vampire right now. Reducing the amount of vampire ability cost reduction was a bad idea, and the speed in which Frenzy ramps up is as well. Having to manage resource for non vampire abilities was just WAY TOO MUCH in the last build and no reasonable person could do it, but juggling not dying from extra fire dmg, no health regen, and your frenzy trying to kill you much faster is this perfect sweet spot some of you are trying to push? Come on man.

And this of course is managing it on stable servers that don't lag out and contrive to make you face plant.

Buddy, you are cherry picking. I said fights and trash, fights mean -bosses-. You are free to believe it's useless, to think that cost is too high. But I am a guy that cleared some of that end game content with vampire, along with a group of vampires. THe cost increase was fine, we managed it just fine. We didn't even have to go out of our way to build for it. Just wait a few months after launch when you are seeing vamps running that content just fine. I don't disagree that the current build for Frenzy isn't the best, nor do I disagree that it would be better to have the 40% cost reduction back on vamp abilities.But it is still a good skill line. Feel free not to believe me, but vamp is currently viable for end game content. Not ceiling smashing, but viable.

I want to clearify that Blood Frenzy is useful, but that doesn't mean it's not a pain in the ass to use. In my opinion ZoS still has a lot of work to do with this ability. As I said, it is useful and you can pull some really nice numbers with it in a fight, but it's skill ceiling is very high right now and I am not sure I like that.

I really don't see how you make use of this skill. I've tried and it's more of a burden then anything.

All I can guess is that maybe if you are in a situation where you have someone else tanking your enemy for you and you're not taking any damage - it might could be useful if you micromanage the hell out of it. But for any situation where you're actually taking incoming damage while fighting I don't see how it could do anything but contribute to your doom.

Yeah man, thats called being a dps in a boss fight. Someone else tanks and you do damage. You are not wrong it is work to manage, but sated at least can be managed. You gotta work for it though and pick your moments. I did make it work but that doesn't mean the ability is where it should be. I think its too tough for the average build to make use out of, only magicka builds for sure, no stam could manage it.

Alright, fair enough. That's what I suspected you were saying, that's why I brought it up as a possibility.

Glurin wrote: »

Why? You still get a 24% cost decrease on vampire skills. And now instead of being arbitrarily restricted to five specific skills, the entire toybox is once again opened up to you, as it should be. We're now at a state where Blood Frenzy is the only skill that might have gone sideways, and it's obviously because they never wanted that skill to be constantly on in the first place.

The issue also resides in Blood Scion and to a lesser extent Blood for Blood. Blood for Blood has an increased health cost due to this change, and while it is minor it is noticeable. Blood Scion is the worst offender however. In 6.0.2 at stage 4 my glacial collossus was 281 ultimate and my Swarming Scion was 201. At a high stage vampire I could use scion more often than collossus for more selfish dps options. Now with 6.0.3 Collossus is ~250 ultimate and so is the Scion. Why should I even use Scion now? using either gives me the same dps but collossus gives group utility. Before the low cost of scion made it the winner, now I question myself everytime I use it.

The normal ability cost increase being reduced is fine with me, but now Vampire skills cost quite alot because they were balanced with the 40% reduction in mind, now that its cut by 16%, whats even the point? Its ironic that 6.0.3 change to Vampires mostly benefited the ones who didnt want to use the skills, while hindering the ones that did

Spectral_Force wrote: »

Don't forget that Vampire cost reductions can be approached from several directions. You can increase the cost reduction from your Stage, yes, but it's also entirely possible to ask for a simple base cost reduction for certain abilities. For example, I do agree that Scion got hit the hardest by 6.0.3 in terms of its cost (Blood Frenzy notwithstanding), and given its base cost is around 334 Ultimate, I reckon ZOS could lower its cost to 300 and leave the other costs more or less intact. Remember that it's still possible to ask for tweaking abilities in a vacuum

Of course, I tried hinting at that when I said they balanced it around the 40% cost reduction. I hope that in 6.0.4 they decide to address the costs of the vampire abilities themselves now that this reduced cost reduction exists

Glurin wrote: »

Paradisius wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Why? You still get a 24% cost decrease on vampire skills. And now instead of being arbitrarily restricted to five specific skills, the entire toybox is once again opened up to you, as it should be. We're now at a state where Blood Frenzy is the only skill that might have gone sideways, and it's obviously because they never wanted that skill to be constantly on in the first place.

The issue also resides in Blood Scion and to a lesser extent Blood for Blood. Blood for Blood has an increased health cost due to this change, and while it is minor it is noticeable. Blood Scion is the worst offender however. In 6.0.2 at stage 4 my glacial collossus was 281 ultimate and my Swarming Scion was 201. At a high stage vampire I could use scion more often than collossus for more selfish dps options. Now with 6.0.3 Collossus is ~250 ultimate and so is the Scion. Why should I even use Scion now? using either gives me the same dps but collossus gives group utility. Before the low cost of scion made it the winner, now I question myself everytime I use it.

The normal ability cost increase being reduced is fine with me, but now Vampire skills cost quite alot because they were balanced with the 40% reduction in mind, now that its cut by 16%, whats even the point? Its ironic that 6.0.3 change to Vampires mostly benefited the ones who didnt want to use the skills, while hindering the ones that did

Then don't question it. If you like Scion, use it. If you don't, don't. The fact that there's not a clear winner to you is a good thing. It means you're doing fine either way you go.

The cost of individual skills can be adjusted at any time to balance things out if needed. Or even just bump that vampire skill cost reduction back up a little bit. The main problem was having the cost increase penalty so severe that it dramatically took away from player freedom. It needed to be reduced so that it was more manageable and thus opened up a much wider array of builds people can use.

But the point being made is that those people who wanted to play with the new vampire skills could do so and get they most benefit from stage 4. Stage 4 in no way shape or form was meant for any regular build that used their normal skills and weapon skills. The main thing they should have done was simply remove the cost increase at stage 1 so if you wanted to still be a vamp or wanted to play your old rotation you could simply lower in vs cureing it. With the new values the only real usable skill in pve is eviscerate and to a lesser extent frenzy. And ita not woth even the small penaltys for a melee magicka skill for minimal dps increase with massive detriments to your survivability (in addition to being in melee range now). I was one of the people who thought the cost increases were absurd, but after testing found them to be balanced when replacing my current spammable with the vamp one and adding blood frenzy made my dps on average 10-18k higher, now i have to awkwardly juggle frenzy and my dps increase is only marginally higher and i would honestly be better off if i cured vamp then trying to get something useful out if it in current state.

Also side note increaseing all other dps toons damage by 25% grossly superior then 1 dps getting a small increase dps window, unless the boss is on cooldown from major vuln there is no reason at all to not collosus

Glurin wrote: »

They still can. Nothin stopping em. I don't know why some of you think that you have to be forced into it to play that way.


Did it ever occur to you that maybe that's why it was nerfed?

Its in the sense that their viability is put into question. As a stage 4 vampire, it would make sense to be enticed to use vampire abilities, no? The problem arises that Stage 4 Vampirism in 6.0.3 feels like what stage 2 vampirism should be. A nice cut inbetween vampiric and non-vampiric abilities in terms of cost. But this isnt stage 2 Vampirism, this is Stage 4. Why is it that in order for my vampiric abilities to break even with my normal abilities I must be stage 4? Stage 4 Vampirism should be something you take if you have a true desire to use Vampiric abilities, and since cost is the main effect, Stage 4 Vampirism should have really low cost Vampiric abilities, as their normal abilities cost more.

Glurin wrote: »

Oathunbound wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Paradisius wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Why? You still get a 24% cost decrease on vampire skills. And now instead of being arbitrarily restricted to five specific skills, the entire toybox is once again opened up to you, as it should be. We're now at a state where Blood Frenzy is the only skill that might have gone sideways, and it's obviously because they never wanted that skill to be constantly on in the first place.

The issue also resides in Blood Scion and to a lesser extent Blood for Blood. Blood for Blood has an increased health cost due to this change, and while it is minor it is noticeable. Blood Scion is the worst offender however. In 6.0.2 at stage 4 my glacial collossus was 281 ultimate and my Swarming Scion was 201. At a high stage vampire I could use scion more often than collossus for more selfish dps options. Now with 6.0.3 Collossus is ~250 ultimate and so is the Scion. Why should I even use Scion now? using either gives me the same dps but collossus gives group utility. Before the low cost of scion made it the winner, now I question myself everytime I use it.

The normal ability cost increase being reduced is fine with me, but now Vampire skills cost quite alot because they were balanced with the 40% reduction in mind, now that its cut by 16%, whats even the point? Its ironic that 6.0.3 change to Vampires mostly benefited the ones who didnt want to use the skills, while hindering the ones that did

Then don't question it. If you like Scion, use it. If you don't, don't. The fact that there's not a clear winner to you is a good thing. It means you're doing fine either way you go.

The cost of individual skills can be adjusted at any time to balance things out if needed. Or even just bump that vampire skill cost reduction back up a little bit. The main problem was having the cost increase penalty so severe that it dramatically took away from player freedom. It needed to be reduced so that it was more manageable and thus opened up a much wider array of builds people can use.

But the point being made is that those people who wanted to play with the new vampire skills could do so and get they most benefit from stage 4.

They still can. Nothin stopping em. I don't know why some of you think that you have to be forced into it to play that way.

Oathunbound wrote: »

when replacing my current spammable with the vamp one and adding blood frenzy made my dps on average 10-18k higher

Did it ever occur to you that maybe that's why it was nerfed?

Considering that i had to trade in a ranged spammable for melee and activate a skill that both constanly drained my health and blocked all sources of outside healing, plus increased flame damage, 0 health regen and base skill cost increase then yes the dps increase is worth it.

Almost everyone sees dummy parses and think "wow this is op/the new meta" and don't ever consider that in order to achive that dps would come at extreme risk in a trial/dungeon environment would come at considerable risk. Now the potential dps has fallen to a point that its not worth this risk to run any vamp skills let alone being a vamp at all

Glurin wrote: »

Or perhaps their ability costs are a bit too high to begin with, regardless of stage. I just don't know why some people are insisting that the only way to play a vampire is to make everything else too expensive to use.

The current ability costs were balanced around a 10/20/30/40% cost reduction progression, that is why they are so high now (And why stage 4 vampirism feels like what stage 2 should be) But the point is that while yes at lower stages of vampirism normal abilities should remain more enticing to use, and this change fixed that part of the problem. Now it is flipped, even as a stage 4 vampire I dont feel enticed to use my vampire abilities because they cost as much or more than my normal abilities At Stage 4.

Overall, now it went from "You need to utilize vampire skills to make high stage vampirism usable" to "Even at high stages of vampirism I am still more enticed to just use my normal abilities"

- they make vampires melee/close ranged base (Mezmorize/eviscerate/Drain essence, all short range abilities) but dont give us a gap closer.

- Blood Frenzy and Eviscerate both consume health as a resource, but we have no real direct heal, or Hot heal.


the whole concept of the Vampire skill line doesn't make any sense. werewolf on the other hand has a gap closer, a claw attack that is also a HOT heal, and a howl that is a direct heal. all the things you need to sustain yourself in close quarters combat. not sure what they were thinking with Vampire when they were cooking up ideas for the skill line.

"Paradisius wrote: »

The normal ability cost increase being reduced is fine with me, but now Vampire skills cost quite alot because they were balanced with the 40% reduction in mind, now that its cut by 16%, whats even the point? Its ironic that 6.0.3 change to Vampires mostly benefited the ones who didnt want to use the skills, while hindering the ones that did

As someone else said, somewhere else in forums, is it really a reduced vampire cost for later stages when it only brings your abilities to the same cost as your normal abilities? So disappointed.

Glurin wrote: »

Or perhaps their ability costs are a bit too high to begin with, regardless of stage. I just don't know why some people are insisting that the only way to play a vampire is to make everything else too expensive to use.

Glurin wrote: »

Or perhaps their ability costs are a bit too high to begin with, regardless of stage. I just don't know why some people are insisting that the only way to play a vampire is to make everything else too expensive to use.

I think that's the point most of us are making. They could have reduced normal cost penalty without gutting the vampire cost reduction so bad.

Stravokov wrote: »

- they make vampires melee/close ranged base (Mezmorize/eviscerate/Drain essence, all short range abilities) but dont give us a gap closer.

- Blood Frenzy and Eviscerate both consume health as a resource, but we have no real direct heal, or Hot heal.


the whole concept of the Vampire skill line doesn't make any sense. werewolf on the other hand has a gap closer, a claw attack that is also a HOT heal, and a howl that is a direct heal. all the things you need to sustain yourself in close quarters combat. not sure what they were thinking with Vampire when they were cooking up ideas for the skill line.

People keep saying Vampiric Drain is a trash ability because it doesn't do any damage, but it's literally there to get your health back up if you have no other way of doing. And it does it quite well to counter the health loss. I know it's not safe, and can be interrupted/CCed, but it's there.

Celestro wrote: »

I mean, Vampiric Drain doesn't really fit the bill of "real direct heal" despite being there and technically providing healing. If an ability is pointless/trash and the entire kit doesn't synergize 'efficiently' with one another, then the point still stands. As a vampire, killing yourself is a big focus as we see. Gaining benefits from killing yourself makes sense and appears throughout the kit but ultimately, are you supposed to kill yourself? Where's the safety net there to really keep you afloat in like "oh ***" situations and whatnot besides the ultimate, partly Sated Fury's burst heal (which is still also one of the very sources killing you) or Mist Form which lets you escape and emphasizes the hit and run style of combat for the skill line I suppose. But how do you maintain your Health throughout the process?

As someone mentioned, at least implementing like Life Steal in the kit would've made a lot of sense. Could probably have been a passive for just slotting Blood Frenzy at the minimum. Not to say that would be enough, but that seemed like an absolute given for a kit that also revolves around blood magic. Just a lot that was missed.

Didn't say it worked great, just it's obvious it's intent. And unless you get hit before the healing starts ticking at near death, or CC out of it, it pretty much heals you back to full. I would prefer something that could be fired like Swallow Soul... but my nightblade already has access to that.