Why exactly to vampires get the cost increase debuff and how will it affect PvE?

SkyMagpie

I know there might be another discussion like this but I am genuinely trying to understand here, what benefits out weight the negatives of that coat increase when it comes to PvE?

Do we need to treat playing a vampire as a separate class of it's own much like playing werewolf? Because people who used vampire for RPing aspects so far will probably have to stop using it or build around it if they still wanna get maximum DPS when it comes to PvE.

Nova_J

Because of blood frenzy and the stage 4 invisibility passive. Those two things shouldn't even be there tbh, they mess up balancing so damn much.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Vampire will be useless to me and almost every other vampire now thanks to these ridiculous changes. It belongs in the realm of wildly specific rp and dummy humping now.

Paradisius

The ability cost increase was to have a noticable detriment to make advancing your stage, or even being a vampire for that matter, a choice and not something you feel like you must do. For example, on live servers right now one is heavily enticed to be a Vampire due to the mitigatable detriments and the passives it gives. Furthermore, one is enticed to be at least stage 3 for undeath, as stage 3 detriments can be entirely ignored for a great boon to the character.

That being said. With the recent changes to the cost reduction on Vampire abilities (40 > 24) its viability is put into question. Mist Form is still a great defensive escape tool, and Eviscerate is an amazing melee spammable. But Blood Scion now costs a hefty amount of ultimate even at stage 4. And the recent Blood Frenzy change (It costing more health already due to cost reduction changes, and it now having an instae +20% cost increase per second with no cap) makes that skill not worth the risk. Vampiric Drain is universal seen now as just a skill to ignore, being subpar in every aspect of the skill. And mesmerize is a stun, so thats PvP territory.

Overall, its not too hard to make vampire work, strike from shadows can be activated by bar swap cancelling mistform for 300 wep/spell damage. And if you can be in melee, Eviscerate is one of the best mag spammables in the game. It just needs alot of number tweaking after this recent PTS patch.

Vevvev

Paradisius wrote: »

And mesmerize is a stun, so thats PvP territory.

Works well in Harrowstorms when keeping the ghosts away but that's a very specific PVE use.

Tessitura

So, I have been messing with vampire on the pts since it opened up and I can tell you, the benefits are pretty nice if you know how to use them, and the negatives are not a big deal, especially now with the cost increase being reduces so much. You passives are obvious, decent sneak skills, 300 free wp/sp just for toggling mistform on and off, and of course, undeath with has always been a fantastic passive.

Now, here is where vampire really becomes worth while, you have three abilities that are pretty amazing.

First: Frenzy which is going to be a high skill cap ability but man, does it *** things up once you learn how to use it. In fact it's so much sp/wp that it can let you change your gear sets more and rely on that to make up the difference in damage. It costs a lot currently, so you really have to pay a lot of attention when running it. I actually think it's numbers need to be adjusted again, but it is a good ability for execution phases and getting a quick kill on low health targets. It is currently a tough sell for a lot of builds though because of how much health it drains.

Second: The spammable hits like a truck and is easy to weave, not to mention its so cheap especially if you use Blood for Blood, its so easy to manage the health cost and lets your resources regen if you are getting low, and then Arterial Burst you get a guaranteed crit from, just turn on Frenzy, let it drain you to 50% health then spam the free critical and watch their health drain.

Third: is the amazing ultimate that I super under estimated when I first saw it. IF you go with the swarm, the pressure from it is unreal, and it increases all your stats by 10k, thats mag, stam, and health.. Your raw damage goes up on some abilities when you pop that, and add the pressure of the swarm in and you got a powerful damage ult. It's very nice, feels like a Dragon Ball Z moment of. " You fool, this isn't even my final form! "

I think it still needs some work, somethings need tweaking and I would really like their to be a gap closer built into the skill line somewhere, but over all it's shaping up to be a good toolkit.

Kurat

OP asked about pve and people talk about mist form escaping, sneaking and pressuring lol.
In pve, vamps will be only for RP or cheesing dummy parse.

Tessitura

Kurat wrote: »

OP asked about pve and people talk about mist form escaping, sneaking and pressuring lol.
In pve, vamps will be only for RP or cheesing dummy parse.

Boy you just don't pay attention do you? Did you even read what we said? Frenzy is not that useful in pvp but it is in pve, in fact, it's pretty amazing in a lot of fights and good for quick trash clears its a bit tougher to pull off now because of how much it costs, but I managed to make it work. In fact I think they need to adjust the cost again, but at it's core its a good ability if a bit strange. And the spammable is a pretty high damage one that can be used by magicka builds, it's not just a pvp thing. wp/sp passive helps in pve too, and so does undeath. And the ult is amazing damage in both pve and pvp. You seriously need to take time to actually look at the tools they have given us here.

eovogtb16_ESO

Have to agree I've been playing on the PTS and frenzy is absolutely amazing in certain situations especially in trials. The amount of dps you can get out of toggling this skill is insane, it puts magblades back on top of the list in terms of dps, and will be dangerously good in the arms of a non potato player.

XomRhoK

Tessitura wrote: »

So, I have been messing with vampire on the pts since it opened up and I can tell you, the benefits are pretty nice if you know how to use them, and the negatives are not a big deal, especially now with the cost increase being reduces so much. You passives are obvious, decent sneak skills, 300 free wp/sp just for toggling mistform on and off, and of course, undeath with has always been a fantastic passive.

Now, here is where vampire really becomes worth while, you have three abilities that are pretty amazing.

First: Frenzy which is going to be a high skill cap ability but man, does it *** things up once you learn how to use it. In fact it's so much sp/wp that it can let you change your gear sets more and rely on that to make up the difference in damage. It costs a lot currently, so you really have to pay a lot of attention when running it. I actually think it's numbers need to be adjusted again, but it is a good ability for execution phases and getting a quick kill on low health targets. It is currently a tough sell for a lot of builds though because of how much health it drains.

Second: The spammable hits like a truck and is easy to weave, not to mention its so cheap especially if you use Blood for Blood, its so easy to manage the health cost and lets your resources regen if you are getting low, and then Arterial Burst you get a guaranteed crit from, just turn on Frenzy, let it drain you to 50% health then spam the free critical and watch their health drain.

Third: is the amazing ultimate that I super under estimated when I first saw it. IF you go with the swarm, the pressure from it is unreal, and it increases all your stats by 10k, thats mag, stam, and health.. Your raw damage goes up on some abilities when you pop that, and add the pressure of the swarm in and you got a powerful damage ult. It's very nice, feels like a Dragon Ball Z moment of. " You fool, this isn't even my final form! "

I think it still needs some work, somethings need tweaking and I would really like their to be a gap closer built into the skill line somewhere, but over all it's shaping up to be a good toolkit.

eovogtb16_ESO wrote: »

Have to agree I've been playing on the PTS and frenzy is absolutely amazing in certain situations especially in trials. The amount of dps you can get out of toggling this skill is insane, it puts magblades back on top of the list in terms of dps, and will be dangerously good in the arms of a non potato player.

All that introduce Strike From Shadows and Blood Frenzy are more additional weaving, one shot ganks and power creep, not most desirable things, in my opinion. You are so glad that you will be able to burn down trash packs and bosses faster, is this all you need from game? Skipping mechanics?
I understand when ZOS add a little power creep to new trial and dungeon sets, to sell new chapter and increase replayability of new content, but i don't understand why they add power creep(outside of Minor and Major buffs) to skill line that everyone can use in addition to their class skill line, and this skill line don't even sell their chapter, it's free update to a game.

Tessitura

XomRhoK wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

So, I have been messing with vampire on the pts since it opened up and I can tell you, the benefits are pretty nice if you know how to use them, and the negatives are not a big deal, especially now with the cost increase being reduces so much. You passives are obvious, decent sneak skills, 300 free wp/sp just for toggling mistform on and off, and of course, undeath with has always been a fantastic passive.

Now, here is where vampire really becomes worth while, you have three abilities that are pretty amazing.

First: Frenzy which is going to be a high skill cap ability but man, does it *** things up once you learn how to use it. In fact it's so much sp/wp that it can let you change your gear sets more and rely on that to make up the difference in damage. It costs a lot currently, so you really have to pay a lot of attention when running it. I actually think it's numbers need to be adjusted again, but it is a good ability for execution phases and getting a quick kill on low health targets. It is currently a tough sell for a lot of builds though because of how much health it drains.

Second: The spammable hits like a truck and is easy to weave, not to mention its so cheap especially if you use Blood for Blood, its so easy to manage the health cost and lets your resources regen if you are getting low, and then Arterial Burst you get a guaranteed crit from, just turn on Frenzy, let it drain you to 50% health then spam the free critical and watch their health drain.

Third: is the amazing ultimate that I super under estimated when I first saw it. IF you go with the swarm, the pressure from it is unreal, and it increases all your stats by 10k, thats mag, stam, and health.. Your raw damage goes up on some abilities when you pop that, and add the pressure of the swarm in and you got a powerful damage ult. It's very nice, feels like a Dragon Ball Z moment of. " You fool, this isn't even my final form! "

I think it still needs some work, somethings need tweaking and I would really like their to be a gap closer built into the skill line somewhere, but over all it's shaping up to be a good toolkit.

eovogtb16_ESO wrote: »

Have to agree I've been playing on the PTS and frenzy is absolutely amazing in certain situations especially in trials. The amount of dps you can get out of toggling this skill is insane, it puts magblades back on top of the list in terms of dps, and will be dangerously good in the arms of a non potato player.

All that introduce Strike From Shadows and Blood Frenzy are more additional weaving, one shot ganks and power creep, not most desirable things, in my opinion. You are so glad that you will be able to burn down trash packs and bosses faster, is this all you need from game? Skipping mechanics?
I understand when ZOS add a little power creep to new trial and dungeon sets, to sell new chapter and increase replayability of new content, but i don't understand why they add power creep(outside of Minor and Major buffs) to skill line that everyone can use in addition to their class skill line, and this skill line don't even sell their chapter, it's free update to a game.

Well thats the point of the trade off's isn't it? I am not even sure what you are fishing for here either, the OP wanted to know what vamp brought to table in pve in exchange for the penalties and we told them.

Merca

Tessitura wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

OP asked about pve and people talk about mist form escaping, sneaking and pressuring lol.
In pve, vamps will be only for RP or cheesing dummy parse.

Boy you just don't pay attention do you? Did you even read what we said? Frenzy is not that useful in pvp but it is in pve, in fact, it's pretty amazing in a lot of fights and good for quick trash clears its a bit tougher to pull off now because of how much it costs, but I managed to make it work. In fact I think they need to adjust the cost again, but at it's core its a good ability if a bit strange. And the spammable is a pretty high damage one that can be used by magicka builds, it's not just a pvp thing. wp/sp passive helps in pve too, and so does undeath. And the ult is amazing damage in both pve and pvp. You seriously need to take time to actually look at the tools they have given us here.

Why would you deal with that trash if you could run past it in stealth?

Tessitura

Merca wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

OP asked about pve and people talk about mist form escaping, sneaking and pressuring lol.
In pve, vamps will be only for RP or cheesing dummy parse.

Boy you just don't pay attention do you? Did you even read what we said? Frenzy is not that useful in pvp but it is in pve, in fact, it's pretty amazing in a lot of fights and good for quick trash clears its a bit tougher to pull off now because of how much it costs, but I managed to make it work. In fact I think they need to adjust the cost again, but at it's core its a good ability if a bit strange. And the spammable is a pretty high damage one that can be used by magicka builds, it's not just a pvp thing. wp/sp passive helps in pve too, and so does undeath. And the ult is amazing damage in both pve and pvp. You seriously need to take time to actually look at the tools they have given us here.

Why would you deal with that trash if you could run past it in stealth?

Cause the rest of your group might not be able to.

navystylz_ESO

Think that was the point, to have to build around it. Instead they made

Tessitura wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

OP asked about pve and people talk about mist form escaping, sneaking and pressuring lol.
In pve, vamps will be only for RP or cheesing dummy parse.

Boy you just don't pay attention do you? Did you even read what we said? Frenzy is not that useful in pvp but it is in pve, in fact, it's pretty amazing in a lot of fights and good for quick trash clears its a bit tougher to pull off now because of how much it costs, but I managed to make it work. In fact I think they need to adjust the cost again, but at it's core its a good ability if a bit strange. And the spammable is a pretty high damage one that can be used by magicka builds, it's not just a pvp thing. wp/sp passive helps in pve too, and so does undeath. And the ult is amazing damage in both pve and pvp. You seriously need to take time to actually look at the tools they have given us here.

Oh, ya. People have really been clamoring for skills that makes them clear useless stuff faster. There is a reason trash is called trash. It's the junk you must get through before the real fights. Probably the most iconic new vampire ability for this build is frenzy, and being MAYBE useful on trash because you murder yourself doesn't cut it by a long shot.

There are too many penalties for the reward gained with vampire right now. Reducing the amount of vampire ability cost reduction was a bad idea, and the speed in which Frenzy ramps up is as well. Having to manage resource for non vampire abilities was just WAY TOO MUCH in the last build and no reasonable person could do it, but juggling not dying from extra fire dmg, no health regen, and your frenzy trying to kill you much faster is this perfect sweet spot some of you are trying to push? Come on man.

And this of course is managing it on stable servers that don't lag out and contrive to make you face plant.

SkyMagpie

Wow so many replies, thank you all, it does put things into perspective, however I still don't think a lot of those spells can hold up in endgame PvE (talking bout dungeon challengers and vet HM trials) the way a person without vampirism could, the drawback is worse than the reward. A lot of boss fights in recent trials and dungeons last very long so you won't be able to sustain through them. Yes quick fights you will probably do good, but when it comes to a lot of PvE endgame you need consistent sustained damage and resources, but it seems you will burn yourself out really fast.

Paradisius

SkyMagpie wrote: »

Wow so many replies, thank you all, it does put things into perspective, however I still don't think a lot of those spells can hold up in endgame PvE (talking bout dungeon challengers and vet HM trials) the way a person without vampirism could, the drawback is worse than the reward. A lot of boss fights in recent trials and dungeons last very long so you won't be able to sustain through them. Yes quick fights you will probably do good, but when it comes to a lot of PvE endgame you need consistent sustained damage and resources, but it seems you will burn yourself out really fast.

That is a fair analysis, and the recent patch does put these abilities in question viability wise. However if sustain is the issue, Eviscerate is an amazing spammable, higher tooltip than any other magicka spammable that somes to my mind. It also has an option to cost health, not dipping into your magicka pool. But with the recent patch you also have a valid option of staying stage 1 in harder content should you not find a place to use vampire abilities (Such as not being able to enter melee reliably) I personally do not think 3% cost increase will cut into your sustain enough to kill you. But overall these abilities needs their numbers tweaked across the board. Primarily because they were balanced with the old cost reduction we had in 6.0.2 and prior. Now the abilities cost way too much for what they bring to the table (Blood for Blood morph of Eviscerate less so, because it dips into health and is still relatively low cost if you dont use the blood frenzy)

navystylz_ESO

SkyMagpie wrote: »

Wow so many replies, thank you all, it does put things into perspective, however I still don't think a lot of those spells can hold up in endgame PvE (talking bout dungeon challengers and vet HM trials) the way a person without vampirism could, the drawback is worse than the reward. A lot of boss fights in recent trials and dungeons last very long so you won't be able to sustain through them. Yes quick fights you will probably do good, but when it comes to a lot of PvE endgame you need consistent sustained damage and resources, but it seems you will burn yourself out really fast.

I agree. I already thought being stage 4 vampire wasn't as attractive prior to this PTS build. Easier to build around reducing normal ability cost penalty while bolstering vampire playstyle. But that same application made being stage 1 or 2 better, since you already had less normal cost penalty, and the vampire costs weren't *that* bad. All you'd lose out on was undeath, but let's be honest, players already have tons of ways to be sturdy.

This new change gutted the only draw of being stage 4. Instead of 40% cost reduction, it was cut in half. So now stage 4 is even worse. Punish the vampire side of things because people wanted to use normal abilities easier. In addition to this, the cost change to frenzy destroyed the skill and made it so simmering will NEVER be chosen as an option. Subsequently, your frenzy killing you means undeath is worthless because you're killing yourself already no matter how much damage you're avoiding otherwise. The one skill that made the biggest difference in being a vampire or not, has way less uptime. Or at the very least a lot more micromanagement of toggling on and off. If this was the intent, why on god's green earth is it a friggin toggle and not just a 1 click buff?

Frenzy and deep vampire play required building around it, which means changing your build actually net you less boost in damage from frenzy, but was ok because you could keep it up much better and benefit from higher damage longer. This being removed, then it's like what is the actual draw of being a vampire if it just seems like a bunch of negatives that don't make it worthwhile over being a non vampire?

Aelorin

Hey,

I played around on pts with my magcro.

The first round, i could up my DPS, while using blood for blood and frenzy, while also slotting a few heals. Health did not drop low. Mind you that was on a dummy parse.

Second round with pts 6.0.3. The constant health drain, the increased cost of vamp skills, makes my DPS drop as on live. Furthermore, watching to turn on and off frenzy is not fun or rewarding. I tried to changs blood for blood to the magicka cersion but even then health and magicka becomes a problem. For dungeons and trials vamp is a no go right now.

I probably use it on a magblade for RP and overland content.

The increased skill cost on vamp abilities plus the constant drain from frenzy made vamp a lot less fun and worthwhile.

Tessitura

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Think that was the point, to have to build around it. Instead they made

Tessitura wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

OP asked about pve and people talk about mist form escaping, sneaking and pressuring lol.
In pve, vamps will be only for RP or cheesing dummy parse.

Boy you just don't pay attention do you? Did you even read what we said? Frenzy is not that useful in pvp but it is in pve, in fact, it's pretty amazing in a lot of fights and good for quick trash clears its a bit tougher to pull off now because of how much it costs, but I managed to make it work. In fact I think they need to adjust the cost again, but at it's core its a good ability if a bit strange. And the spammable is a pretty high damage one that can be used by magicka builds, it's not just a pvp thing. wp/sp passive helps in pve too, and so does undeath. And the ult is amazing damage in both pve and pvp. You seriously need to take time to actually look at the tools they have given us here.

Oh, ya. People have really been clamoring for skills that makes them clear useless stuff faster. There is a reason trash is called trash. It's the junk you must get through before the real fights. Probably the most iconic new vampire ability for this build is frenzy, and being MAYBE useful on trash because you murder yourself doesn't cut it by a long shot.

There are too many penalties for the reward gained with vampire right now. Reducing the amount of vampire ability cost reduction was a bad idea, and the speed in which Frenzy ramps up is as well. Having to manage resource for non vampire abilities was just WAY TOO MUCH in the last build and no reasonable person could do it, but juggling not dying from extra fire dmg, no health regen, and your frenzy trying to kill you much faster is this perfect sweet spot some of you are trying to push? Come on man.

And this of course is managing it on stable servers that don't lag out and contrive to make you face plant.

Buddy, you are cherry picking. I said fights and trash, fights mean -bosses-. You are free to believe it's useless, to think that cost is too high. But I am a guy that cleared some of that end game content with vampire, along with a group of vampires. THe cost increase was fine, we managed it just fine. We didn't even have to go out of our way to build for it. Just wait a few months after launch when you are seeing vamps running that content just fine. I don't disagree that the current build for Frenzy isn't the best, nor do I disagree that it would be better to have the 40% cost reduction back on vamp abilities.But it is still a good skill line. Feel free not to believe me, but vamp is currently viable for end game content. Not ceiling smashing, but viable.

I want to clearify that Blood Frenzy is useful, but that doesn't mean it's not a pain in the ass to use. In my opinion ZoS still has a lot of work to do with this ability. As I said, it is useful and you can pull some really nice numbers with it in a fight, but it's skill ceiling is very high right now and I am not sure I like that.

SkyMagpie

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Frenzy and deep vampire play required building around it, which means changing your build actually net you less boost in damage from frenzy, but was ok because you could keep it up much better and benefit from higher damage longer. This being removed, then it's like what is the actual draw of being a vampire if it just seems like a bunch of negatives that don't make it worthwhile over being a non vampire?

Yeah I am scared that other classes will just outperform vamps and will be more favorable when running dungeon challengers and trials to the current vamps. Not that vamps won't be playable, but that it will be a niche build that will get outperformed by everyone. You know how you can play a templar tank but people will still prefer for you to be on a DK.

SkyMagpie

Aelorin wrote: »

Hey,

I played around on pts with my magcro.

The first round, i could up my DPS, while using blood for blood and frenzy, while also slotting a few heals. Health did not drop low. Mind you that was on a dummy parse.

Second round with pts 6.0.3. The constant health drain, the increased cost of vamp skills, makes my DPS drop as on live. Furthermore, watching to turn on and off frenzy is not fun or rewarding. I tried to changs blood for blood to the magicka cersion but even then health and magicka becomes a problem. For dungeons and trials vamp is a no go right now.

I probably use it on a magblade for RP and overland content.

The increased skill cost on vamp abilities plus the constant drain from frenzy made vamp a lot less fun and worthwhile.

This is what I was afraid of seeing the 6.0.3 changes because previously I held my breath hoping someone will make a workaround.

Lintashi

Every time I ask people, who defend new vampire changes, to show me build, where vampire healer or tank is just as good as non-vamp healer or tank, I just get silence. I still cannot decide, should I cure my vamps, or rp until I am bored and leave the game.

SkyMagpie

Tessitura wrote: »

Buddy, you are cherry picking. I said fights and trash, fights mean -bosses-. You are free to believe it's useless, to think that cost is too high. But I am a guy that cleared some of that end game content with vampire, along with a group of vampires. THe cost increase was fine, we managed it just fine. We didn't even have to go out of our way to build for it. Just wait a few months after launch when you are seeing vamps running that content just fine. I don't disagree that the current build for Frenzy isn't the best, nor do I disagree that it would be better to have the 40% cost reduction back on vamp abilities.But it is still a good skill line. Feel free not to believe me, but vamp is currently viable for end game content. Not ceiling smashing, but viable.

I want to clearify that Blood Frenzy is useful, but that doesn't mean it's not a pain in the ass to use. In my opinion ZoS still has a lot of work to do with this ability. As I said, it is useful and you can pull some really nice numbers with it in a fight, but it's skill ceiling is very high right now and I am not sure I like that.

Hey your reply is very hopeful, may I ask what are you building? My best friend is maining a magblade vampire and she was wondering what you run to maybe try and fix up her own character because she got a significant damage drop. I would like to believe we can salvage vamp builds.

Tessitura

Op, I got a question for you. At what point would vampire fit your desire for performance? Does it have to top out and out perform all other classes? Does it have to middle out and be above a few classes? Does it have to elevate the performance of all classes, or would it be fine if it elevated the performance of some classes? Or is it being able to complete challanges and trials good enough? Remember, it is a skill line and not a class all by it's self, so it's performance will depend on the classes using it. Some classes will sit lower with it then others depending on their role and the fights.

I am not trying to be aggressive or anything. I am just curious what you are wanting out of vampire with Greymoor. Because I can tell you this, the skill line is for sure about the skills in it now and not the passives. It has nice passives, but if you can not see yourself using any of the skills it has on offer with any build you might want to run, then it is not something you will probably want to use. The passives are nice but they do not carry it in pve. The cost penalty is manageable on all classes, me and a bunch of other guys have found that out, but if you are not using those skills then there is no point in putting up with it.But if you can see yourself getting any kind of use out of at least one of those abilities it might be worth it.

All that said, if we got our cost reduction on vampire abilities raised back up i think it would be better. Blood Frenzy certainly would benefit from it, so would Mesmerize.

Tessitura

SkyMagpie wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

Buddy, you are cherry picking. I said fights and trash, fights mean -bosses-. You are free to believe it's useless, to think that cost is too high. But I am a guy that cleared some of that end game content with vampire, along with a group of vampires. THe cost increase was fine, we managed it just fine. We didn't even have to go out of our way to build for it. Just wait a few months after launch when you are seeing vamps running that content just fine. I don't disagree that the current build for Frenzy isn't the best, nor do I disagree that it would be better to have the 40% cost reduction back on vamp abilities.But it is still a good skill line. Feel free not to believe me, but vamp is currently viable for end game content. Not ceiling smashing, but viable.

I want to clearify that Blood Frenzy is useful, but that doesn't mean it's not a pain in the ass to use. In my opinion ZoS still has a lot of work to do with this ability. As I said, it is useful and you can pull some really nice numbers with it in a fight, but it's skill ceiling is very high right now and I am not sure I like that.

Hey your reply is very hopeful, may I ask what are you building? My best friend is maining a magblade vampire and she was wondering what you run to maybe try and fix up her own character because she got a significant damage drop. I would like to believe we can salvage vamp builds.

Oh this came up while I was writing my question. So the build I ran those dungeons on was a Magnecro, and I was using Bright Throat with one of the new sets, Druagrkin. Which puts a curse on your target that adds something like 700 damage to each attack it gets hit with? Anyway, I know Bright Throat is a pvp set but the regen really worked out well on vampire, and I ended up shield stacking with healing shield to get Sated Frenzy to work out. I relied on over stacked shields to give me enough breathing room for some heavy dot and burst damage on bosses. Oh and I was running two monster sets, i changed them up to test them out. Balrogh, since necro has good ult generation and Valkyn since I was using a two dot skills. Also Valkyn has spell pen now, so thats nice. Also, i weaved mistform a lot for some extra spell damage.

A side note, we synergy *** a lot too. We all popped them pretty much on cool down. Undaunted makes that like a free restore potion. Though we really did not have to I think, or at least I didn't because I managed fine.

As for NB I am unsure, I did not run high end anything on one even though I wanted to. I got to pvp a lot on one, and mageblade vamp is very good for that, but thats not what you are concerned about.

Came back to add this, I changed up my build for a while towards the end of our runs and ran with Blood for Blood and dropped Bright Throats when i did. When I went witha melee build I lost dps up time cause I had to be in range of the target, but I gained higher burst when I was in range. Mostly because I switched to Master Architect, Also a buddy reminded me that I actually dropped Druagr's for Perfect Siroria early after the first dungeon.

Another thing, I am aware that False God's is a better choice then Bright Throat, I was just playing with it because I wanted to see if it could be done since more people had access to that then Perfect False God's.

ElliottXO

Lintashi wrote: »

Every time I ask people, who defend new vampire changes, to show me build, where vampire healer or tank is just as good as non-vamp healer or tank, I just get silence. I still cannot decide, should I cure my vamps, or rp until I am bored and leave the game.

Umm what? It's an obvious disadvantage for anyone who can't fit at least 1 vampire active ability into the rotation.

Also, your argument works both ways. If you defend the old vampire, show me a non-vamp mag dps who is just as good as a vamp.

So you think it's ok to be forced into vampire to be meta, but it's not ok to be forced into non-vampire to be meta. What exactly is your logic here?

And those 'I want my will or I will quit the game' threats are getting pretty stale.

Lintashi

ElliottXO wrote: »

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Umm what? It's an obvious disadvantage for anyone who can't fit at least 1 vampire active ability into the rotation.

Also, your argument works both ways. If you defend the old vampire, show me a non-vamp mag dps who is just as good as a vamp.

So you think it's ok to be forced into vampire to be meta, but it's not ok to be forced into non-vampire to be meta. What exactly is your logic here?

And those 'I want my will or I will quit the game' threats are getting pretty stale.

There are tons of current mag builds, that do just fine without being vamp. Passive is good, but it is not like current players that do not use vampire characters, have increased skill cost, compared to vampires. Also, I never mentioned meta. I do not want to be meta, I want to be EQUAL with non vampires. There can be other drawbacks, that do not place vampires into extremely niche builds, or pure rp. After all, why lore portrays vampires as dangerous monsters, when vampire tanks, healers, and most dps's, are weaker than their mortal counterparts.

Paradisius

Lintashi wrote: »

Every time I ask people, who defend new vampire changes, to show me build, where vampire healer or tank is just as good as non-vamp healer or tank, I just get silence. I still cannot decide, should I cure my vamps, or rp until I am bored and leave the game.

Thats unfortunately just the nature of this rework, its heavily dedicated to a damage type build. Tanks can use Vampiric Drain and Blood Mist for healing and mitigation, and ult regen on the vampiric drain morph. And before 6.0.3 I could argue that healers could use blood frenzy for a quick boost to healing (As if I remember right the heals scale off spell damage, so having an extra 660 spell damage from sated fury could be nice.) Sated fury could then be toggled off when not in use and get a nice heal to make up for the hp lost.

Overall though, I do understand your situation and Ive brought this up a couple times myself. I think its just the nature of the rework pulling it from a more all rounded one-line-fits-all to a more dps and pvp heavy skill line.

ElliottXO

Lintashi wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

[

Umm what? It's an obvious disadvantage for anyone who can't fit at least 1 vampire active ability into the rotation.

Also, your argument works both ways. If you defend the old vampire, show me a non-vamp mag dps who is just as good as a vamp.

So you think it's ok to be forced into vampire to be meta, but it's not ok to be forced into non-vampire to be meta. What exactly is your logic here?

And those 'I want my will or I will quit the game' threats are getting pretty stale.

There are tons of current mag builds, that do just fine without being vamp. Passive is good, but it is not like current players that do not use vampire characters, have increased skill cost, compared to vampires. Also, I never mentioned meta. I do not want to be meta, I want to be EQUAL with non vampires. There can be other drawbacks, that do not place vampires into extremely niche builds, or pure rp. After all, why lore portrays vampires as dangerous monsters, when vampire tanks, healers, and most dps's, are weaker than their mortal counterparts.

It's exactly the same argument. You will do just fine as a tank or healer with 3% cost increase. Just like a mag dps does fine without regen passive. (Having less passive regen translates into the same endresult as increased cost anyway).

You say 3% cost increase is game breaking, but having 10% less passive regen is not?

If you insist on being stage 4 tank or healer, of course it will be a hard hit. But why do you need to be at stage 4 again?

SkyMagpie

ElliottXO wrote: »

If you insist on being stage 4 tank or healer, of course it will be a hard hit. But why do you need to be at stage 4 again?

If not for DPS and not for tanks and heals, who is stage 4 meant for? PvP? What would encourage anyone to have higher stages of vamp except for RP?

Jeremy

SkyMagpie wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

If you insist on being stage 4 tank or healer, of course it will be a hard hit. But why do you need to be at stage 4 again?

If not for DPS and not for tanks and heals, who is stage 4 meant for? PvP? What would encourage anyone to have higher stages of vamp except for RP?

It's meant for people who want to turn invisible while sprinting, which can be useful - especially for none Night Blades who don't have access to invisible (outside of potions I suppose).

It used to be good for people who wanted to concentrate heavily on Vampire abilities as well, though the cost decreases are a lot less significant now so that's less of a factor. A lot of what made stage 4 unique has deteriorated because for some reason people felt they just had to play in stage 4 and spam their regular abilities. So now what we have is just a watered down version of the Vampire - and most people are still not going to play in stage 4 - and blood frenzy is terrible. So it literally solved nothing and just made things worse or less interesting.