Move rally to a universal skill line

relentless_turnip · May 2020

My thoughts are that if rally and its morphs were not exclusive to the 2H skill line it would make all the other weapon skill lines a more viable choice.

I believe 2H is meta for 2 reasons: dizzy and rally. Mainly I believe it is because rally gives you so much and it is self cast.
If duel wield had access to rally I believe we would be looking at nearer a 50/50 split.

I would like to emphasise this isn't intended as a nerf thread so please don't come here complaining.
Would be great to hear what people think of moving Rally and its morphs to a universal skill line?

kalunte · May 2020

pointless.

Nerftheforums · May 2020

2h is used so much as a front bar weapon because it gives the only decent stam spammable to classes that lack it. Before they nerfed snb spammables, almost everybody was using those instead of dswing.

And no, flurry & morphs are not decent spammables.

Chilly-McFreeze · May 2020

Nerftheforums wrote: »

2h is used so much as a front bar weapon because it gives the only decent stam spammable to classes that lack it. Before they nerfed snb spammables, almost everybody was using those instead of dswing.

And no, flurry & morphs are not decent spammables.

qft.

If they didn't triplebuffed Dizzy while at the same time nerfing SnB and DW people wouldn't be somewhat forced into 2h.

And no, nerfing Dizzy into uselessness isn't a viable option as it leaves some classes with nothing offensive to show.

Buff other spams, introduce stam morphs for classes that have a lack of them. Hell, even consider reworking Blood for Blood or Imbue. Even tho Imbue is quite okay on ranged.

Sandman929 · May 2020

There's a source of Major Sorcery in the Mage's Guild, for some reason no source of Major Brutality in the Fighter's Guild. I don't think Rally specifically has to move, but I do think the buff should be there. It's been brought up a lot of times though, ZOS doesn't seem to agree.

relentless_turnip · May 2020

Sandman929 wrote: »

There's a source of Major Sorcery in the Mage's Guild, for some reason no source of Major Brutality in the Fighter's Guild. I don't think Rally specifically has to move, but I do think the buff should be there. It's been brought up a lot of times though, ZOS doesn't seem to agree.

I chose rally specifically, because for me it is such a massive selling point of the skill line.
minor endurance, powerful heal and major brutality. I think the other skill lines offer a different play style, but no skill within offers as much as rally or the ease of use.

RedReign · May 2020

Sandman929 wrote: »

There's a source of Major Sorcery in the Mage's Guild, for some reason no source of Major Brutality in the Fighter's Guild. I don't think Rally specifically has to move, but I do think the buff should be there. It's been brought up a lot of times though, ZOS doesn't seem to agree.

Seems to be the case with almost every heavily requested change.

Deathlord92 · May 2020

I’d personally love it I have always wanted to use dw and bow giant 2 h makes no sense on a rogue that’s suppose to be fast but rally just to good to pass up.

RedReign · May 2020

Idk about Rally itself but we could certainly use a universal source of Major Brutality.

Cerbolt · May 2020

Rally wouldn't be out of place in the fighters guild skill line but what would we replace it with in 2h?

idk · May 2020

While some unskilled players may be choosing the 2H for rally, the skilled players in the game have other options for heals.

I am not suggesting that because a player uses rally they are unskilled just that if they choose the weapon due to that one skill vs how the overall weapon works for their build and playstyle they are likely not very skills and that OP is incorrect with their suggestion.

Deathlord92 · May 2020

idk wrote: »

While some unskilled players may be choosing the 2H for rally, the skilled players in the game have other options for heals.

I am not suggesting that because a player uses rally they are unskilled just that if they choose the weapon due to that one skill vs how the overall weapon works for their build and playstyle they are likely not very skills and that OP is incorrect with their suggestion.

The majority use rally at least in pvp its been a very good skill for ever I couldn’t imagine playing ow with out rally then again I only play nb so maybe other classes may get away with out rally but stamblade imo needs it.

Strider__Roshin · May 2020

That would be the death of the 2H. I mean I would love it honestly.

Somnilux · May 2020

For heals: There are vigor and the fighters guild heal and some class abilities.
For major brutality: DW flying dagger skill, many class abilities, potions.
For the other morph of rally's snare immunity: Race Against Time, Shuffle, Phantasmal Escape

There's nothing unique provided by rally.

Kawiki · May 2020

Somnilux wrote: »

For heals: There are vigor and the fighters guild heal and some class abilities.
For major brutality: DW flying dagger skill, many class abilities, potions.
For the other morph of rally's snare immunity: Race Against Time, Shuffle, Phantasmal Escape

There's nothing unique provided by rally.

Flying daggers lol. It's not a bad skill but rally is way better as it gives a significant heal, major brutality and minor endurance all in one slot. Along with dizzy and executioner it makes the skill line for practically all stam PvP builds mandatory or else you are gimping yourself.

MincVinyl · May 2020

I mean, camo hunter is pretty much useless other than for a passive. It wouldnt be hard to get rid of the stealth detect idea that doesn't work and tack brutality and savagery to a 2-3k active ability. Then 2h could gain back the fm/rally that has the hot and maybe bring back the 8s fm like it used to have so people actually pick that morph.

MartiniDaniels · May 2020

Absolutely love this idea! I am sick of using 2H and nothing else for at least an year, and main reason why I can't remove it from front bar is Rally.

Somnilux wrote: »

For heals: There are vigor and the fighters guild heal and some class abilities.
For major brutality: DW flying dagger skill, many class abilities, potions.
For the other morph of rally's snare immunity: Race Against Time, Shuffle, Phantasmal Escape

There's nothing unique provided by rally.

DW flying dagger??? Ha-ha-ha.

Did you ever tried to use it after it became gap closer? I tried for a day or two.. and it was... hilarious experience.
Weapon pots? Who uses them in PVP with exception of some niche builds? There are so many amazing powerful pots out there, so just to waste it to have major brutality means big disadvantage.
"Many class abilities"? It's only warden and sorc's, all other classes source of major brutality is either expensive, inconvenient or simply useless.

relentless_turnip · May 2020

idk wrote: »

While some unskilled players may be choosing the 2H for rally, the skilled players in the game have other options for heals.

I am not suggesting that because a player uses rally they are unskilled just that if they choose the weapon due to that one skill vs how the overall weapon works for their build and playstyle they are likely not very skills and that OP is incorrect with their suggestion.

I meant rally and all its morphs, the heal is the bit i feel I am least missing out on. Minor endurance and major brutality on a self cast. If you were to use forward momentum you can remove immobilisation.

I think if it were available to all builds we would see more variety of weapons.

I also don't feel I am "incorrect" as the subject matter is subjective. I am merely speculating that it is a large reason why people choose the 2H skill line over other options.

Nerftheforums · May 2020

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Absolutely love this idea! I am sick of using 2H and nothing else for at least an year, and main reason why I can't remove it from front bar is Rally.

Somnilux wrote: »

For heals: There are vigor and the fighters guild heal and some class abilities.
For major brutality: DW flying dagger skill, many class abilities, potions.
For the other morph of rally's snare immunity: Race Against Time, Shuffle, Phantasmal Escape

There's nothing unique provided by rally.

DW flying dagger??? Ha-ha-ha.
Did you ever tried to use it after it became gap closer? I tried for a day or two.. and it was... hilarious experience.
Weapon pots? Who uses them in PVP with exception of some niche builds? There are so many amazing powerful pots out there, so just to waste it to have major brutality means big disadvantage.
"Many class abilities"? It's only warden and sorc's, all other classes source of major brutality is either expensive, inconvenient or simply useless.

You've been using rally for only an year? And you're here commenting? Ooooooh boy

BaiterOfZergs · May 2020

There was other choices but people complained until they nerfed snb and dual wield. Now instead of spinning to win you spin to lose.

It’s not necessarily that rally should be moved , it’s other options need to be added to take up bar space. Instead things just get nerfed so there’s only few in use, then zos and players use that as a reason to nerf those things. Because if everyone is using something then clearly it must be OP, although it’s really because there’s few options.

Isn’t it funny ? The reason things get nerfed is because there’s few options but the reasons there’s few options is because things get nerfed, endless cycle.

MartiniDaniels · May 2020

Nerftheforums wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Absolutely love this idea! I am sick of using 2H and nothing else for at least an year, and main reason why I can't remove it from front bar is Rally.

Somnilux wrote: »

For heals: There are vigor and the fighters guild heal and some class abilities.
For major brutality: DW flying dagger skill, many class abilities, potions.
For the other morph of rally's snare immunity: Race Against Time, Shuffle, Phantasmal Escape

There's nothing unique provided by rally.

DW flying dagger??? Ha-ha-ha.
Did you ever tried to use it after it became gap closer? I tried for a day or two.. and it was... hilarious experience.
Weapon pots? Who uses them in PVP with exception of some niche builds? There are so many amazing powerful pots out there, so just to waste it to have major brutality means big disadvantage.
"Many class abilities"? It's only warden and sorc's, all other classes source of major brutality is either expensive, inconvenient or simply useless.

You've been using rally for only an year? And you're here commenting? Ooooooh boy

I said for at least an year

before U23 there were options... now outside of some niche builds, who can run without 2H front bar?

Somnilux · May 2020

Kawiki wrote: »

Somnilux wrote: »

For heals: There are vigor and the fighters guild heal and some class abilities.
For major brutality: DW flying dagger skill, many class abilities, potions.
For the other morph of rally's snare immunity: Race Against Time, Shuffle, Phantasmal Escape

There's nothing unique provided by rally.

Flying daggers lol. It's not a bad skill but rally is way better as it gives a significant heal, major brutality and minor endurance all in one slot. Along with dizzy and executioner it makes the skill line for practically all stam PvP builds mandatory or else you are gimping yourself.

I get that its not, but there are a hundred different ways to build characters and there's nothing absolutely critical in the design of Rally that requires you to use a 2h that is dictating all meta.

The DW skill with it needs a lot of rework, particularly the gap closer version. As a stamplar, it makes it harder since I lack a source of major brutality from class skills.

However I've still made plenty of builds that work without Rally/Forward Momentum in them. There's again, zero reason to dictate moving rally off of 2h.

Now, would it be nice if they added even more diversity of builds? sure. Would it be nice if they made every skill equally attractive? sure.

I'm not trying to argue that, but this suggestion is a complete waste and doesn't actually improve anything.

MartiniDaniels · May 2020

idk wrote: »

While some unskilled players may be choosing the 2H for rally, the skilled players in the game have other options for heals.

I am not suggesting that because a player uses rally they are unskilled just that if they choose the weapon due to that one skill vs how the overall weapon works for their build and playstyle they are likely not very skills and that OP is incorrect with their suggestion.

Then Kristofer ESO is probably unskilled following that logic. Because I saw plenty of his builds, where rally was MAIN heal. Also not everybody plays warden or necromancer, try playing stamplar without rally for example.

OrderoftheDarkness · May 2020

I like this idea. If it will be implemented, only in the distant future, for the new packs of innovations.
Yes, 2h is fashionable not only because of Major brutality, but also because of Minor endurance. Minor endurance makes it possible to better control the final numbers on builds. So yes 2h is fashionable and effective.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Absolutely love this idea! I am sick of using 2H and nothing else for at least an year, and main reason why I can't remove it from front bar is Rally.

Somnilux wrote: »

For heals: There are vigor and the fighters guild heal and some class abilities.
For major brutality: DW flying dagger skill, many class abilities, potions.
For the other morph of rally's snare immunity: Race Against Time, Shuffle, Phantasmal Escape

There's nothing unique provided by rally.

DW flying dagger??? Ha-ha-ha.
Did you ever tried to use it after it became gap closer? I tried for a day or two.. and it was... hilarious experience.
Weapon pots? Who uses them in PVP with exception of some niche builds? There are so many amazing powerful pots out there, so just to waste it to have major brutality means big disadvantage.
"Many class abilities"? It's only warden and sorc's, all other classes source of major brutality is either expensive, inconvenient or simply useless.

and this.

Currently, this can be called the lame concept of game - play as you want.

Somnilux · May 2020

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Absolutely love this idea! I am sick of using 2H and nothing else for at least an year, and main reason why I can't remove it from front bar is Rally.

Somnilux wrote: »

For heals: There are vigor and the fighters guild heal and some class abilities.
For major brutality: DW flying dagger skill, many class abilities, potions.
For the other morph of rally's snare immunity: Race Against Time, Shuffle, Phantasmal Escape

There's nothing unique provided by rally.

DW flying dagger??? Ha-ha-ha.
Did you ever tried to use it after it became gap closer? I tried for a day or two.. and it was... hilarious experience.
Weapon pots? Who uses them in PVP with exception of some niche builds? There are so many amazing powerful pots out there, so just to waste it to have major brutality means big disadvantage.
"Many class abilities"? It's only warden and sorc's, all other classes source of major brutality is either expensive, inconvenient or simply useless.

I've used weapon damage pots in pvp at various times, generally its a tradeoff and I try not to rely on them. I tend to rely on spell power pots a lot more on my NB healer, unless we have a DK providing the entire group major brut/sorc.

And none of your response in anyway invalidates my comment. I'm not saying all things are equally great, perfect or useful. Major brutality isn't even 100% critical to a functional build, but it is one of the largest single damage sources for a buff yes, so it really depends on how much you want to keep it up, and what type of play your particular build is being centered around.

In PvE, nobody runs major brutality at all, because you assume you're using potions anyway. In BGs 1vX, it becomes far far more neccessary to add it into your build, so how you get it will need to be considered in your build. It doesn't mean you are guarenteed to run a 2her, but its very likely because of that factor. In group pvp/cyrodiil group play, you're likely going to have a DK with it, so having 100% uptime on it from a self provided buff is even less important.

My major point is, if this had something absolutely critical in its design that wasn't available elsewhere, there'd be more of a complaint, like back when shuffle wasn't providing much snare immunity and before race against time got modified, you'd see entire groups including magicka backbarring 2h for forward momentum. That was bad design.

This? this is just a good ability that happens to be a weapon skill. Sort of like Deadly/Quick Cloak, probably the single strongest stam skill in cyrodiil, even without the vBRP dw effects.

But oh, you can get major evasion from Shuffle. You can get major evasion multiple other places. You can get mobile damage similar to it from a couple class skills (hurricane/solar barrage are two of the only ones that come to mind).

kylewwefan · May 2020

relentless_turnip wrote: »

My thoughts are that if rally and its morphs were not exclusive to the 2H skill line it would make all the other weapon skill lines a more viable choice.

I believe 2H is meta for 2 reasons: dizzy and rally. Mainly I believe it is because rally gives you so much and it is self cast.
If duel wield had access to rally I believe we would be looking at nearer a 50/50 split.

I would like to emphasise this isn't intended as a nerf thread so please don't come here complaining.
Would be great to hear what people think of moving Rally and its morphs to a universal skill line?

So like make it the last skill to unlock in Psijic Skill Line? Or like the last skill to unlock in the Soul Magic Skill Line? No thank you.

Actually, what if it were added to the Psijic Skill Crushing weapon? That would be cool.

What are you wanting rally to be, an easy source for Major Brutality or like a heal/purge kind of thing?

You forgot the other things 2H has to offer, which is an execute and a pretty good AOE trash clearing skill that grants a monster damage shield.

People like Rally because you can Buff up without having to hit something. Unlike Degeneration or Flying Dagger.

lucky_Sage · May 2020

its not dizzy or onslaught that makes 2h bis so many players over look that power slam only hits like 1.25k less than dizzy

MartiniDaniels · May 2020

Somnilux wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Absolutely love this idea! I am sick of using 2H and nothing else for at least an year, and main reason why I can't remove it from front bar is Rally.

Somnilux wrote: »

For heals: There are vigor and the fighters guild heal and some class abilities.
For major brutality: DW flying dagger skill, many class abilities, potions.
For the other morph of rally's snare immunity: Race Against Time, Shuffle, Phantasmal Escape

There's nothing unique provided by rally.

DW flying dagger??? Ha-ha-ha.
Did you ever tried to use it after it became gap closer? I tried for a day or two.. and it was... hilarious experience.
Weapon pots? Who uses them in PVP with exception of some niche builds? There are so many amazing powerful pots out there, so just to waste it to have major brutality means big disadvantage.
"Many class abilities"? It's only warden and sorc's, all other classes source of major brutality is either expensive, inconvenient or simply useless.

I've used weapon damage pots in pvp at various times, generally its a tradeoff and I try not to rely on them. I tend to rely on spell power pots a lot more on my NB healer, unless we have a DK providing the entire group major brut/sorc.

And none of your response in anyway invalidates my comment. I'm not saying all things are equally great, perfect or useful. Major brutality isn't even 100% critical to a functional build, but it is one of the largest single damage sources for a buff yes, so it really depends on how much you want to keep it up, and what type of play your particular build is being centered around.

In PvE, nobody runs major brutality at all, because you assume you're using potions anyway. In BGs 1vX, it becomes far far more neccessary to add it into your build, so how you get it will need to be considered in your build. It doesn't mean you are guarenteed to run a 2her, but its very likely because of that factor. In group pvp/cyrodiil group play, you're likely going to have a DK with it, so having 100% uptime on it from a self provided buff is even less important.

My major point is, if this had something absolutely critical in its design that wasn't available elsewhere, there'd be more of a complaint, like back when shuffle wasn't providing much snare immunity and before race against time got modified, you'd see entire groups including magicka backbarring 2h for forward momentum. That was bad design.

This? this is just a good ability that happens to be a weapon skill. Sort of like Deadly/Quick Cloak, probably the single strongest stam skill in cyrodiil, even without the vBRP dw effects.

But oh, you can get major evasion from Shuffle. You can get major evasion multiple other places. You can get mobile damage similar to it from a couple class skills (hurricane/solar barrage are two of the only ones that come to mind).

Magicka it is another story. For magicka you of course benefit greatly from major sorcery, but you still have huge maxmagicka pool and you don't lose so much as stamina loses from lack of major brutality. Without major brutality, any stamina character is just a wreck, WD is everything for us, difference in 750+ WD is difference between awesome build and potato build. Renewing rally/FM is like a second nature, in-built timer in your head, something which you do always no matter what (if you are not out of resources ofc).
Like others said it was not an issue before, when you can get Major brutality from nice and effective boomerang dagger. What we have now on DW is trash of a spammable in one morph, and barely working gap closer in another morph. There were numerous suggestions how to improve this - for example give full range and damage to initial cast (28m+ range) but to proc gap closer you must be in 22 meters and debuff hangs on target for 10 seconds instead of 5... how it is on live - try to use it against streaking/rolling away target. It is gap closer which you need to cast TWO times. Given current success rate of casting gap closers (any), you may imagine success rate of flying blade.

Mettaricana · May 2020

Im all for it move it to some base game universal skill line as a general buff skill for stamina and give twohander a nice big 3 swing channel aoe kinda whirlwind like the hudnreds of enemies have!

Chilly-McFreeze · May 2020

Somnilux wrote: »

fighters guild heal

What's that?

Alpheu5 · May 2020

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Somnilux wrote: »

fighters guild heal

What's that?

Ring of Preservation, but it's laughably low after they nerfed it on the PTS before it went live.