Glurin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

And if you keep ending up with a stealth archer in Skyrim, that's your problem. Mods or no mods.

Hmmmm. Okay, so it's fine to intentionally subvert class identity in Oblivion and Morrowind, where the game actually makes an attempt to push you into playing your class, but playing to the game design in Skyrim, where no class system is present is a personal problem. Right.

And, no, that's not my problem. If it was, then it wouldn't have become a general joke about Skyrim as a whole. The game's default balance heavily favors the stealth archer approach, so this isn't a personal issue, it's an optimization issue.

In point of fact, Skyrim suffers from entire play styles, in particular, Magic Users being non-viable in high level play was a problem.

This actually a common theme in games. It's called a noob trap. You see an option that looks viable, can commit to it, and then get screwed over hard in the long term because it simply doesn't deliver later in the game. This leads back to the Stealth Archer example above, because if you're running a Magicka build, when it stops delivering and you need to migrate over to a new build, being sneaky and picking enemies off at range may be your only viable choice that won't involve lots of frustrating reloading.

And there we have the crux of the issue. You are looking for the most effective build possible. Not the one that's both fun and effective to play, but the one that will get you the most kills fastest. I admit Skryim did have a balance issue when it came to destruction magic. But that issue did not force you to become a stealth archer. That decision was yours and yours alone.

And for your information, I was a raider. Your assumptions as to what was and was not required in dungeons are quite wrong, but don't worry. You're far from the only one making those assumptions. That's just what happens when you let yourself get into the mindset that the only way to beat a dungeon is to use brute force to overpower the mechanics. Or rather, not so much overpower them as much as just detonate a nuke in the boss's face before the mechanics even show up. (It also causes this incredibly annoying obsession with numbers that, simply put, is wildly unhealthy.)

Anyway, this is getting us way off track. The point is the play as you want concept is all about maximizing freedom within your character so that it is in fact your character. It is not being given a binary choice of either doing PvP or not doing PvP or using cookie cutter magicka Templar v.s. cookie cutter stamina Templar. Those options is just plain standard for just about every multiplayer game on the market. You can argue as much as you like that equipping any kind of damage mitigation means you must be a tank or that using stamina abilities as a vampire means you're not a vampire, but at the end of the day that kind of restriction is entirely self imposed.

The best way and only way to beat some dungeons, especially with a pug group is to have good DPS. There is absolutely no substitute for good DPS. And I don't care ZOS doesn't like me saying that but we all know it's true, they know it's true and some runs for me in the past were so over the top good DPS is only way I got thru it. We don't all have access to a professional Trials Guild and shouldn't need to seek one out just to run regular Veteran content.

I'm sorry however play your way breaks at the dungeon level. I cannot just use any character, mine or otherwise and defeat some of that content. Let's not even kid ourselves. And to that point, that adds another layer to this where we have play your way and yet the mechanics don't directly however they indirectly force us to play a different way. A Team does not play your way, they play as a team. Well, most don't but hey I'm being positive here not realistic. But in theory they should.

That is the crux of the problem, is there are situations where am avg build won't cut it and you have to look at what player's are trending and step out of your comfort zone a little. To that extent, that is why all the concern over what direction the new Vamp system will take. Before it served as kinda of a foundation, which made it useful regardless of why people used it.

I just left Scalecaller Peak with a great tank build and it didn't matter at all because we did not have enough DPS to stop the adds. Play your way unfort stops when numbers are involved. ie.. Binary. Most pro Trial guilds will tell u this first thing. Welcome, Full Stop, use this gear for this role. That is the Crux of PvE content in this game, in some areas it has become so hard it's just not possible unless you bend to whatever left or right avenue gets u thru the mechanics. ie the most effective build possible AND approved by the Guild/Team. And over time some of the runs have gotten a whole lot harder. Whew!!! I don't remember Scale Caller being half as bad the last time I ran it. This why I have more less retired from all Trials and most Vet Content.

This goes back to what some of us have been saying about there being too many sets. Yeah all of them could be useful in X situation, I agree completely. However, isn't that kind of the problem? Many of them are really similar and yet the insane challenges in this game, including PvP alone makes half of these sets unnecessary and unused for the most part. Here's what they should have done, they should have made smaller sets, more 1 pc sets and have as many of those as you like, almost exactly like Diablo 2. And then, when you've earned it, unlock the heavy hitters way later on and make them and keep them very exclusive. Make them powerful without being OP powerful but with more flare, like Diablo 2. And design the 5 pc sets around something in lore that people could be proud of, something that matches their quest. And I know we have some of them like that but there's so much garbage floating around out there it feels something is missing from the game. Too much content.

And speaking of that, (sorry I know this post is getting kind of large) instead of focusing so much on nerfing everything, I call into question their entire approach to this new balance system. For example, as others have also said, there can be a bit of a mismatch between playing a Vamp with primarily magicka oriented abilities or playing a WW with the same for Stam and then wanting to play a StamBlade Vamp or like a Healer WW. I know when setting up my builds, the one thing kind of holding me back are these "synergy conflicts" as I like to call them. Templar is full of them. Like a Templar has a wep dmg % and then they have like minor sorcery with a increase to spell resistance. I mean, is that there for me to choose between the two? I know I could reconcile these two difference however that would result in a weaker hybrid build. And all of these sets, so many sets, less than 1% of them will help the situation I just described. Cause I'm trying to get the most out of the class and there are only 5 slots on the bar. It's like by building Templar as stam or mag I'm generating waste in the build. This is especially true when we stop and realize Sorc or Warden makes a much better Healer. Templar DPS is powerful but only because of their gap closer. I think they should at some point stop throwing new things at us and think critically about class identity and set identity. Why not make certain sets for certain classes? Again, like Diablo II Expansion when they brought in the Assassin.

There is more work to be done here but in order to fix these problems they need to stop digging.

Also on an unrelated note, so everyone who w

starkerealm wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Define "good DPS".

Sufficient to clear the content without putting undue stress on the other members in your group. Those thresholds vary based on the content.

Here's what I'm sure of, your "slap random skills on the bar," build is not doing enough DPS to clear content without getting an involuntary carry from the other party members.

The way I would have done it was set up Undaunted like the Gladiator Colosseum from Oblivion. Welcome new meat, here's your uniform, here's the sets we use or that you can craft, here's the skill line to work towards, these are the rules of the arena.

People within a reasonable range of levels play together until the graduate upwards. Only the top 30% move on to the big leagues. If you fail enough you are bumped down like in Starcraft II League scoring. Allow enough ppl so it isn't too exclusive but set up a cut off to keep out ppl who don't try or their skill level or character ceiling is so low they have no business being there to start with.

Glurin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Define "good DPS".

Sufficient to clear the content without putting undue stress on the other members in your group. Those thresholds vary based on the content.

Here's what I'm sure of, your "slap random skills on the bar," build is not doing enough DPS to clear content without getting an involuntary carry from the other party members.

Define "undue stress". This is a conversation that many forums have seen many, many, many times over and if one thing remains consistent about it, it's that somebody always defines "undue stress" to mean anything less than the current absolute maximum. I've seen all out flame wars over minute, insignificant differences in DPS with people bitching like crazy about carry this and burden that. Or how they are just so inconvenienced by someone not putting out the exact same numerical values when in the same breath they brag about being able to solo that same dungeon in no time flat.

I've been in MMOs a long time and personally been witness to several instances where a DPS will run ahead and one shot a trash mob group and then proceed to berate the others for not "pulling their weight". Few things are more annoying than a DPS who feels the need to post damage meter parses at every opportunity.

Ah ok. I see what you mean, yeah or a DPS who accidentally gets Crown over the group in vAS then just drops the group immediately after they got their reward and want to move on and now the rest of the group is scrambling to get their loot and turn in quest in less than 30 seconds, under the old system. Yes I understand that, too.

But still regardless, good DPS is the change mechanism. A Tank in a situation, being forced to act as a Traditional Tank must Block. They Block and aggro and that is it because if they drop shield they are dead and will get kicked. Same goes for Healer not keeping Tank alive. The DPS is nature's change mechanism and regardless of how stupid or selfish people can be, the Tank and Healer will only exist so long. That Brick wall will fall eventually and compassion isn't compassionate. In these cases you have to kill the ****. Death is our advocate.

DT-ARR wrote: »

I feel like a broken record...but this would all be a moot point if they adjusted the Vampire Lord armor set to incrementally reduce the vampire stage penalties vs increase them.

Kills 3 birds with 1 stone. Makes the set viable, gives the people complaining about the stage increases a way to moderately reduce the penalties in exchange for sacrificing their current 5 piece armor set, and better fits with the lore.


Example!

Vampire Lord
LEVEL 50 - CP 160
Type Overland

Set bonus:
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) Stage 1/2/3/4
Flame Damage Penalty reduced 4/6/8/10%
Health Regen Penalty reduced 1/2/3/4. (dont remember the percentages but essentially cut them in half per stage)
Regular Ability Cost Penalty reduced: 4/6/8/10%

Bada bing bada boom...solved.

That would homogenize things to a ridiculous point, lmao. That is not a solution, ZOS tweaking the sorry state of Vampys is the solution.

Tessitura wrote: »

Vanos444 wrote: »

That's right, nobody will try being vampire stage 2 or beyond due to increased cost of class skills. I am certain nobody will want to be vampire at this point, if this hits live, like this....

Wrongest of wrongs. Lot of people saying this, I highly suspect most have not bothered to log in and actually test vamp. Yeah, the 20% cost increase is hefty, but not that hefty my man. Sure, some adjustments to the numbers would be nice but it is still viable at that cost. Every class I have played as managed to work with that cost increase.

Here is the deal my friends, it's not like the super best beast mode skill line, but it is viable, sure some number adjustments might be needed, but you are jerking your knee at what you see on paper. I am telling you, the cost increase can be worked with. You can manage it, and you can get some real *** you, damage off with vampire and stay relatively safe. To be honest I am surprised people are not freaking out more about the health regen punishment. It's a bigger deal, honestly, and even worse is the fact that the stun barely works, and the ultimate basically stuns you when you activate it and when it times out. No one is concerned about that though, even though it's a bigger issue then the cost increase for vamps.

I have tested it and Vampires need the numbers adjusted. It is clunky and not executed well.

It works great with some niche builds but needs to be more viable for versatility. Which it won’t be in it’s current state.

ZOS needs to listen to the feedback and tweak things for that.

T

Tessitura wrote: »

Vanos444 wrote: »

That's right, nobody will try being vampire stage 2 or beyond due to increased cost of class skills. I am certain nobody will want to be vampire at this point, if this hits live, like this....

Wrongest of wrongs. Lot of people saying this, I highly suspect most have not bothered to log in and actually test vamp. Yeah, the 20% cost increase is hefty, but not that hefty my man. Sure, some adjustments to the numbers would be nice but it is still viable at that cost. Every class I have played as managed to work with that cost increase.

Here is the deal my friends, it's not like the super best beast mode skill line, but it is viable, sure some number adjustments might be needed, but you are jerking your knee at what you see on paper. I am telling you, the cost increase can be worked with. You can manage it, and you can get some real *** you, damage off with vampire and stay relatively safe. To be honest I am surprised people are not freaking out more about the health regen punishment. It's a bigger deal, honestly, and even worse is the fact that the stun barely works, and the ultimate basically stuns you when you activate it and when it times out. No one is concerned about that though, even though it's a bigger issue then the cost increase for vamps.

We've all tested it. It's bad. All around the way vamp works on PTS is bad.

Meowmeow, i brought up the set idea as a compromise solution.

If you think ZOS is going to completely re-work the vamp abilities (which are a bigger problem than cost imo) and passives within the next two weeks than i’ve got a bridge to sell you.

With that said, i’m fully aware its a bandaid solution. But its a solution that for the time being is easily workable within the existing framework of the class change and the limited time period of testing prior to the DLC release.

--> Regular Ability Cost is now +3/+5/+8+12%, down from +5/+10/+15/+20%

Still feels like the later stage cost is too high, but at least 12% will be more workable than 20%.

JWillCHS wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

RedReign wrote: »

Most of my characters can at least function with 12% cost increase. Now if they'd just come off that ridiculous "-100% health recovery" and bring it to say...90 so I'm not dying from tripping over pebbles, that'd be super.

If they changed that part it'd be perfect, or as close to perfect as one can get. The new changes to Fury though is interesting, use Sated fury right and its still a powerful self heal but you can't sustain it for longer than 20 seconds with 15k health.

Am I the only who thinks 12% is fine? There are things in the game that give cost reduction. Racial passives, armor passives, enchantments, and even gear sets. You could literally cut the cost in half or mitigate it entirely. A Breton and in 5 pieces of light armor is an example.

Edit: I meant to add the following. But that health recovery is really disgusting. Couldn't they still keep the additional stamina and magicka recovery?

Youre not the only one, I actually agree with every point you've made here. Like I said, most of my characters can now function reasonably well if I make them vampire. The ones who struggled with sustain already would never make it but my Breton mag toons, my necro, and my DK will all manage just fine with this change.