Nobody will want to go past stage 1

darthgummibear_ESO

We'll effectively be in the same place as we are now because people won't want to go past stage 1 with the cost increases and actively avoid feeding. Stage 1 will be like stage 4 is now, with everything being more expensive.

I wanted to be able to feed to get stronger, now I have to avoid feeding because I'll get severely penalized for it. There's no upside.

Tsukiino

Stage 4's cost increase to non-vampire abilities is such a yikes.

20% cost increase to abilities INCLUDING ultimates.

We already lost Magician and Warlord Cost Reduction CP years ago, but dang. How would you even counteract this cost increase? Waste your sets by running cost reduction stuff? Sacrifice damage for recovery glyphs? Recovery food?

Wavek

They dont want vampire to be used for its passives like it was before. The point of the changes is to make vampire usable on its own. The new vampire way wont be for everyone to just automatically have it on magicka characters. You would only get it if you wanted to use those skills. I tested it a bit today using my magblade vampire and only 1 non-vampire skill (soul siphon) and had a good time and no resource issues even at stage 4.

darthgummibear_ESO

Wavek wrote: »

They dont want vampire to be used for its passives like it was before. The point of the changes is to make vampire usable on its own. The new vampire way wont be for everyone to just automatically have it on magicka characters. You would only get it if you wanted to use those skills. I tested it a bit today using my magblade vampire and only 1 non-vampire skill (soul siphon) and had a good time and no resource issues even at stage 4.

And what if you are stamina?

Saelent

It really is a catch 22, if it is good to be a vampire then everyone will want to be a vampire, but if they make it bad to try and niche it, then barely anyone (other than RPers) will want to be a vampire.

I personally would give it a go, but the health drain of blood frenzy is just too high as is the cost increase of non-vampire skills. 10% would be acceptable and still keep some from wanting to be vampires.
Admittedly the high heath drain tied with the lowering of vampire skill cost does actually make sense. Still don’t like that 20% increase though.

Iskiab

I don’t have too much of an issue with vampire cost increases for non-vampire abilities, but it should be toned down.

Things like ultimates, blocking, dodge rolling are effected by the cost increase making vampire difficult to build around.

A better setup would be to exclude certain things like dodge rolling, and maybe stage 1 have no downside or halve the negative to non-vampire abilities.

Otherwise it’d be like a set that only increases one skill line’s damage, who uses those? Too niche.

Oakmontowls_ESO

Saelent wrote: »

It really is a catch 22, if it is good to be a vampire then everyone will want to be a vampire, but if they make it bad to try and niche it, then barely anyone (other than RPers) will want to be a vampire.

I personally would give it a go, but the health drain of blood frenzy is just too high as is the cost increase of non-vampire skills. 10% would be acceptable and still keep some from wanting to be vampires.
Admittedly the high heath drain tied with the lowering of vampire skill cost does actually make sense. Still don’t like that 20% increase though.

I think blood frenzy might be used by magicka nb in pve. You can out heal the damage if you are using strife.

jaws343

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Wavek wrote: »

They dont want vampire to be used for its passives like it was before. The point of the changes is to make vampire usable on its own. The new vampire way wont be for everyone to just automatically have it on magicka characters. You would only get it if you wanted to use those skills. I tested it a bit today using my magblade vampire and only 1 non-vampire skill (soul siphon) and had a good time and no resource issues even at stage 4.

And what if you are stamina?

Then maybe you shouldn't be a vampire. Just like werewolf doesn't have synergy with a magicka build.

darthgummibear_ESO

jaws343 wrote: »

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Wavek wrote: »

They dont want vampire to be used for its passives like it was before. The point of the changes is to make vampire usable on its own. The new vampire way wont be for everyone to just automatically have it on magicka characters. You would only get it if you wanted to use those skills. I tested it a bit today using my magblade vampire and only 1 non-vampire skill (soul siphon) and had a good time and no resource issues even at stage 4.

And what if you are stamina?

Then maybe you shouldn't be a vampire. Just like werewolf doesn't have synergy with a magicka build.

I've been playing that kind of vampire since daggerfall in the 90's. If zos is saying I can't do that anymore I should just uninstall the game and go back to playing skyrim.

Michaelkeir

I could be wrong but it seems to me that the devs only want people to play as a vampire using mainly vampire skills. I can see how this is a turn off to most people. I however will embrace it. I already have a pure werewolf themed character that pulls good dps (Blood moon, Req, and Molag). And when this drops I already have 2 pure vampire characters at the ready.

Stamina vampire builds on the other hand will probably have a hard time. But we shall have to see with further testing.

It seems they want Werewolf for stamina characters and Vampire for magic ones.

Kilcosu

melee range magicka nightblade will be alright. combination of merciless resolve and siphoning attacks is just fine to out heal simmering frenzy

eviscerate is a nice and super cheap spammable to offset non vamp skills like ground dots.

MashmalloMan

Jesus, people love to cry about everything. You want to be a true vampire than stage 4 is for you. The -40% cost decrease is insanely strong for people willing to actually use vampire abilities. You also have the option to disable the cons for 20s on your ultimate.

I swear, people just want everything handed to them. It's bad enough on live that everyone in pve goes to at least stage 2 to get mag/stam regen, not to mention the drawbacks have no effect because -33% damage taken trumps any extra fire damage taken and hp regen is pretty much useless.

Same goes for pvp. Werewolf and Vampire should be a choice, not a necessity.

The con of the extra ability cost will not matter to a stage 4 vampire that gets insanely cheap abilities.

They fixed this problem. No longer will 80% of the eso population be vampires for passives alone and I'm fine with that.

Paradisius

I agree that stamina vampire players get the short end of the stick, personally I would change it to where blood for blood scales off the highest stat, so stamina vampires could have a really good melee spammable as well. As for not going past stage 1, its honestly dependant on how you want to play vampire, a choice to how far you'd want to go based on how much you want to build into vampirism. If you want to incorporate vampiric skills into your build, and want those costs reduced or want the passives, you increase the stage accordingly. The point of the rework according to the devs is to change up the entire "Vampire is a straight buff to any build, let it run to stage 4, maybe 3 if you get hit too much" into more of "Am I going to make use of what this stage of vampirism brings me, or should I not advance my stage."

brandonv516

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Jesus, people love to cry about everything. You want to be a true vampire than stage 4 is for you. The -40% cost decrease is insanely strong for people willing to actually use vampire abilities. You also have the option to disable the cons for 20s on your ultimate.

I swear, people just want everything handed to them. It's bad enough on live that everyone in pve goes to at least stage 2 to get mag/stam regen, not to mention the drawbacks have no effect because -33% damage taken trumps any extra fire damage taken and hp regen is pretty much useless.

Same goes for pvp. Werewolf and Vampire should be a choice, not a necessity.

They fixed this problem. No longer will 80% of the eso population be vampires for passives alone and I'm fine with that.

Me too.

MotownMurder

jaws343 wrote: »

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Wavek wrote: »

They dont want vampire to be used for its passives like it was before. The point of the changes is to make vampire usable on its own. The new vampire way wont be for everyone to just automatically have it on magicka characters. You would only get it if you wanted to use those skills. I tested it a bit today using my magblade vampire and only 1 non-vampire skill (soul siphon) and had a good time and no resource issues even at stage 4.

And what if you are stamina?

Then maybe you shouldn't be a vampire. Just like werewolf doesn't have synergy with a magicka build.

No, sorry, I disagree. Magicka werewolves would be silly, you're right, but a stamina vampire is not a crazy idea. Most of the vampires in TES are not wizards, they're just people fighting with swords. In my opinion, vampirism should become much more accommodating to stamina players than it is right now before the patch goes live. At the very least, the spammable should get a stam morph.

Mayrael

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Jesus, people love to cry about everything. You want to be a true vampire than stage 4 is for you. The -40% cost decrease is insanely strong for people willing to actually use vampire abilities. You also have the option to disable the cons for 20s on your ultimate.

I swear, people just want everything handed to them. It's bad enough on live that everyone in pve goes to at least stage 2 to get mag/stam regen, not to mention the drawbacks have no effect because -33% damage taken trumps any extra fire damage taken and hp regen is pretty much useless.

Same goes for pvp. Werewolf and Vampire should be a choice, not a necessity.

The con of the extra ability cost will not matter to a stage 4 vampire that gets insanely cheap abilities.

They fixed this problem. No longer will 80% of the eso population be vampires for passives alone and I'm fine with that.

Amen. I really impressed by the idea of new vampire implementation, it's very well thought, it's strong but not OP. It can give you a loot of benefits but will also give you serious cons. This is how balance is made. Decrease the cost and 80% of players will play vampires, it5 should be a choice not obligation.

darthgummibear_ESO

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Jesus, people love to cry about everything. You want to be a true vampire than stage 4 is for you. The -40% cost decrease is insanely strong for people willing to actually use vampire abilities. You also have the option to disable the cons for 20s on your ultimate.

I swear, people just want everything handed to them. It's bad enough on live that everyone in pve goes to at least stage 2 to get mag/stam regen, not to mention the drawbacks have no effect because -33% damage taken trumps any extra fire damage taken and hp regen is pretty much useless.

Same goes for pvp. Werewolf and Vampire should be a choice, not a necessity.

The con of the extra ability cost will not matter to a stage 4 vampire that gets insanely cheap abilities.

They fixed this problem. No longer will 80% of the eso population be vampires for passives alone and I'm fine with that.

And again, completely ignoring that stamina players get completely screwed and have no choice in the matter.

usmcjdking

I'm going Redguard in VO/Lokke/Grundl on my upcoming vamp. Sad to lose Kena but....dat ulti.

brandonv516

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Jesus, people love to cry about everything. You want to be a true vampire than stage 4 is for you. The -40% cost decrease is insanely strong for people willing to actually use vampire abilities. You also have the option to disable the cons for 20s on your ultimate.

I swear, people just want everything handed to them. It's bad enough on live that everyone in pve goes to at least stage 2 to get mag/stam regen, not to mention the drawbacks have no effect because -33% damage taken trumps any extra fire damage taken and hp regen is pretty much useless.

Same goes for pvp. Werewolf and Vampire should be a choice, not a necessity.

The con of the extra ability cost will not matter to a stage 4 vampire that gets insanely cheap abilities.

They fixed this problem. No longer will 80% of the eso population be vampires for passives alone and I'm fine with that.

And again, completely ignoring that stamina players get completely screwed and have no choice in the matter.

So where are the Magicka Werewolves?

Vampire has always catered more to Magicka so I'm not sure why people were expecting it to be different going forward.

Dagoth_Rac

I don't think you do have to use all vampire skills to make Stage 4 viable. If you used half vampire skills and half non-vamp skills, you would have half of your skills with a 40% cost reduction and half with a 20% cost increase. Which skills you use and their base costs will vary, but you likely come out ahead in resource sustain. Even 40% vamp skills and 60% non-vamp skills is probably about break even. Ultimates and dodge/block/etc., could be a problem. I think more testing and theory-crafting needs to be done before writing off Stage 4 as not competitive.

darthgummibear_ESO

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I don't think you do have to use all vampire skills to make Stage 4 viable. If you used half vampire skills and half non-vamp skills, you would have half of your skills with a 40% cost reduction and half with a 20% cost increase. Which skills you use and their base costs will vary, but you likely come out ahead in resource sustain. Even 40% vamp skills and 60% non-vamp skills is probably about break even. Ultimates and dodge/block/etc., could be a problem. I think more testing and theory-crafting needs to be done before writing off Stage 4 as not competitive.

The vampire skills are all magika. Stamina players are completely boned.

Vevvev

brandonv516 wrote: »

So where are the Magicka Werewolves?

Vampire has always catered more to Magicka so I'm not sure why people were expecting it to be different going forward.

Magicka werewolves suck at damage but they can take advantage of that heal very well.... and that's about it really.

As for vampires? Well there are a LOT of sources of vampires gaining physical strength and Stamina. In Oblivion they gained strength to the following skills.
Source:
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Vampirism

• Acrobatics
• Athletics
• Destruction
• Hand to Hand
• Illusion
• Mysticism
• Sneak

When it comes to stats they gained power to following.

• Strength
• Willpower
• Speed

This is not even taking into the effect the other powers they got like the resistance to normal weapons which went as high as 20%. Now this exists in the form of the undeath passive in ESO.

In Skyrim vampires took on a more magical approach but they still gained bonuses to sneaking. This helped sneaky builds utilize them in battle and of course they gained frost resistance. At stage 4 the frost resistance was at 100% which greatly helped warriors, mages, and rogues going into certain fights.
Source:
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Vampirism

Morrowind is where we really delve into warrior vampires in the form of the Quarra and Berne Clans. All vampires received the following buffs.
Source:
https://pt.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Vampires

• +20 to Strength, Willpower, and Speed.
• +30 to Sneak, Athletics, Acrobatics, Hand-to-hand, Unarmored, Mysticism, Illusion, and Destruction.
• Immune to Paralysis and Common Disease.
• +50% Resistance to normal weapons.

Berne are the sneaky clan and get these the following buffs: +20 to Agility, additional +20 to Sneak, Unarmored, and Hand-to-hand.

Quarra are the warriors and they get the following buffs: +20 to Strength, +20 Blunt Weapon, Hand-to-hand, and Heavy Armor.


I could go into the 7 vampire clans of the Illiac Bay but this post is getting a bit long. Vampires in The Elder Scrolls have always had a history of improving magical and physical attributes of a person at the cost of flame/sun damage, health recovery, and other healing detriments.

brandonv516

Vevvev wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

So where are the Magicka Werewolves?

Vampire has always catered more to Magicka so I'm not sure why people were expecting it to be different going forward.

Magicka werewolves suck at damage but they can take advantage of that heal very well.... and that's about it really.

As for vampires? Well there are a LOT of sources of vampires gaining physical strength and Stamina. In Oblivion they gained strength to the following skills.
Source:
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Vampirism

• Acrobatics
• Athletics
• Destruction
• Hand to Hand
• Illusion
• Mysticism
• Sneak

When it comes to stats they gained power to following.

• Strength
• Willpower
• Speed

This is not even taking into the effect the other powers they got like the resistance to normal weapons which went as high as 20%. Now this exists in the form of the undeath passive in ESO.

In Skyrim vampires took on a more magical approach but they still gained bonuses to sneaking. This helped sneaky builds utilize them in battle and of course they gained frost resistance. At stage 4 the frost resistance was at 100% which greatly helped warriors, mages, and rogues going into certain fights.
Source:
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Vampirism

Morrowind is where we really delve into warrior vampires in the form of the Quarra and Berne Clans. All vampires received the following buffs.
Source:
https://pt.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Vampires

• +20 to Strength, Willpower, and Speed.
• +30 to Sneak, Athletics, Acrobatics, Hand-to-hand, Unarmored, Mysticism, Illusion, and Destruction.
• Immune to Paralysis and Common Disease.
• +50% Resistance to normal weapons.

Berne are the sneaky clan and get these the following buffs: +20 to Agility, additional +20 to Sneak, Unarmored, and Hand-to-hand.

Quarra are the warriors and they get the following buffs: +20 to Strength, +20 Blunt Weapon, Hand-to-hand, and Heavy Armor.


I could go into the 7 vampire clans of the Illiac Bay but this post is getting a bit long. Vampires in The Elder Scrolls have always had a history of improving magical and physical attributes of a person at the cost of flame/sun damage, health recovery, and other healing detriments.

The heal costs Magicka but scales off Max Health.

So the only thing Magicka users can benefit from is the ability to spam a self heal while running around waiting to die.

Vevvev

brandonv516 wrote: »

The heal costs Magicka but scales off Max Health.

So the only thing Magicka users can benefit from is the ability to spam a self heal while running around waiting to die.

Pretty much lol.

Cuddler

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Which skills you use and their base costs will vary, but you likely come out ahead in resource sustain. Even 40% vamp skills and 60% non-vamp skills is probably about break even.

Assuming for simplicity that all abilities cost the same, you need to cast 1 vamp for 2 non-vamp abilities at stage 4 to break even, i.e. 66% non vamp to 33% vamp ratio. This ratio will of course vary with actual slotted ability costs, but one definitely does not have to be a 100% dedicated vampire to have decent sustain.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Meanwhile I am stuck at stage 1 and cannot progress no matter how many people I feed on.

Cuddler

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I don't think you do have to use all vampire skills to make Stage 4 viable. If you used half vampire skills and half non-vamp skills, you would have half of your skills with a 40% cost reduction and half with a 20% cost increase. Which skills you use and their base costs will vary, but you likely come out ahead in resource sustain. Even 40% vamp skills and 60% non-vamp skills is probably about break even. Ultimates and dodge/block/etc., could be a problem. I think more testing and theory-crafting needs to be done before writing off Stage 4 as not competitive.

The vampire skills are all magika. Stamina players are completely boned.

Out of 5 abilities, only 2 have a Magicka focus. Mist, Frenzy and Mesmerize are just as effective on Stamina. All passives are equally good on Magicka and Stamina. In fact, Unnatural Movement is better on Stamina thanks to the Medium Armour Sprint passive.

darthgummibear_ESO

Cuddler wrote: »

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I don't think you do have to use all vampire skills to make Stage 4 viable. If you used half vampire skills and half non-vamp skills, you would have half of your skills with a 40% cost reduction and half with a 20% cost increase. Which skills you use and their base costs will vary, but you likely come out ahead in resource sustain. Even 40% vamp skills and 60% non-vamp skills is probably about break even. Ultimates and dodge/block/etc., could be a problem. I think more testing and theory-crafting needs to be done before writing off Stage 4 as not competitive.

The vampire skills are all magika. Stamina players are completely boned.

Out of 5 abilities, only 2 have a Magicka focus. Mist, Frenzy and Mesmerize are just as effective on Stamina. All passives are equally good on Magicka and Stamina. In fact, Unnatural Movement is better on Stamina thanks to the Medium Armour Sprint passive.

Mist and mes are both magika...[snip]

[edited for baiting]

fxeconomisteb17_ESO

So what if nobody wants ?

Nobody wanted in the previous framework either, but it was just stuffed on our throats.

ElliottXO

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

I've been playing that kind of vampire since daggerfall in the 90's. If zos is saying I can't do that anymore I should just uninstall the game and go back to playing skyrim.

According to your first post nothing will change for you, except you will be in stage 1 instead of stage 4. Oh yeah, and you will perhaps lose the FOM build being a vampire (or flavor of the past 5 years in this case). And this is what it is really about for most people. But they always like to bring up some RP bs to 'back it up'.

Vevvev

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Mist and mes are both magika...[snip]

I think he's referring to the fact they don't have damage that scales off spell damage and max magicka, but I have to disagree with his choices since that one vampire drain morph restores 5% of your lost stamina each second while channeling exists.

That morph helps stamina builds in the same way Green Dragonblood does for StamDK's, but if you slotted every single vampire ability on a bar as a stamina DPS you'd be hurting yourself greatly. Not a single ability that deals physical, disease, or poison damage is on there and not a single stamina morph for any of the skills. I feel like ZOS should have treated the one vampire melee spammable like they did with Imbue Weapon. Start it off as a stamina attack and give it a magicka morph. Its a physical strike after all...